Teaching good trading (1 Viewer)

[Grimace59]

So I asked a question about a trade being blocked because it was very looped sided. I brought up a discussion between the commish's about the one owner not really having any clue about player value, and possible hurting the league with the deals he is making. It was brought up that the owner should be removed from the league, but were still in limbo on what we should presently do.

1. Remove him no and find a replacement, with the 3 commish's running the team in the mean while.

2. Keep him and remove him at the end of the year

3. Keep him and try to help educate him on making better moves, ie player values and trading.

Keep in mind this is 12 man Dynasty league, with a $50 buy in it's 3rd year. We had some turn over after it's 1st year with new owners, and this was one of them. The entire league agreed to prepay half of next year in advance for if people drop.

Thanks for you advice and help, please if you have any other clarifying questions also.

 

[Breesisdaman]

#2

 

[mcintyre1]

I'd say #1. No point in letting him have the whole year to screw up a team.

 

[CaptainHook]

lets see some of these trades are you sure you arent just being lame

 

[Grimace59]

Both trades actually involved my self.

Trade one (Preseason, before Harvin's Migrain problems)

He gives: Percy Harvin

I give: Devin Hester

Trade two

He gives: DeAngello Williams

I give: Johnnu Knox, & Benjarvis Green-Ellis

DeAngello Williams & Darren McFadden are his only playable running back, and made some questionable moves during the new owner draft. we had 4 new owners and they ok redrafting their teams with the abandoned player rather than take the teams as they were.

This was brought up by the other two Commish's not myself, I have no problem keeping him around and fully don't agree with canning him midseason.

 

[ScottyDog]

Whoooaaaa, this little tidbit of info about the trades involving you change everything from your OP. How come the league is not upset with you for trading with this naive person? Do they not think you took advantage of him?

 

[abe froman]

you need to bear some responsibilty here too. If you knew he was a guppy then you should of learned him as soon as his offer came over, to protect the integrity of the entire league. Now that you may be done trading him you want to prevent him from making more dumb moves to others (your competition)?? doesnt sound fair to me. Fix it now or be sure that this league will not last very long..lose the guppie now or introduce him to FBG if he's not already..

 

[Grimace59]

I will admit, I'm a cut throat player, and will look to improve my team any way possible, and will trade with whom ever.

The Harvin trade was not offered by me, nor did I even enquire about it, I just woke up one morning and saw the offer sitting in my inbox and just took it... I of course added a couple draft picks in afterwards to make the trade more fair.

Second offer I packaged those two players (Knox & Green-Ellis) to a bunch of teams to see who would bite, and it happen to be this guy. I will admit I will feed off a lessor opponent, as we all wouldl.

Keep in mind I also am only a co-commish not the main, kind of like an consultant, because I do have this mentality. Sorry to miss lead from my OP if i did, that why I asked to ask clarifying questions, but I was sure I left out important details. I'm also on record not wanting remove the other owner, just help if needed.

Also the second trade did not go thru, I did OK vetoing it.

 

[Black]

you need to bear some responsibilty here too. If you knew he was a guppy then you should of learned him as soon as his offer came over, to protect the integrity of the entire league. Now that you may be done trading him you want to prevent him from making more dumb moves to others (your competition)?? doesnt sound fair to me. Fix it now or be sure that this league will not last very long..lose the guppie now or introduce him to FBG if he's not already..

Yup. I am a commish of two leagues. I retain the right to veto trades, and I don't make trades for my own team unless I comfortable knowing that they are reasonable. I often run them past other leaguemates to be sure they won't cause controversy.I feel if i want to keep the league competitive (and my friends/leaguemates happy/confident in me) that MY trades need to be above reproach.

 

[Grimace59]

I fully admit that I'm an ####### FF football owner, and will take advantage of another player, it's just in me. I'm only the co-commish because the other guys want me to help out when I can.

I'm just posting this to help out the main co-commish make a decision on how to deal with this, please focus on what should be done. Yes I'm a FF **** I know this, it's just in me.

Please let me know what you guys would do in this situation,

1. Can the guy now

2. Wait till the end of the season

3. Try to help him out this season

4. Do nothing

5. Kick me out of the league

I just don't want this other guy to be kicked out of the league if it is not warranted, and if you think that is gone fine tell me and I'll even pass that info on to the commisioner.

Telling me I'm a #### will not help us out right now, and if you do send me a PM, it's cool.

 

[abe froman]

Consider that they have 4 new teams out of 12 -maybe this is an indicator of the quality of this league..I know there will be turnover as my keeper league has been 1-2 per year but our buy-in has fluctuated from $100-150 so that is more the reason than anything. With your $50 fee, Im sure more would stay if they felt it was a good league. Police yourself. Maybe go to a majority vote (I know not everyone is a fan of this but it can work for some as it does in ours -our avg age is 32-35 and we have yet to vote a trade down in 5 years). -stating ages as maturity or experience may be a reason why we avoid issues like this.

 

[habsfan]

"Trying to help a guy out" seldom works in my experience unless you have that rare instance where someone puts their hand up and says, "I'm not good at this, help me".

You have a league with (in my opinion) a lot of commish "steering and oversight". With that in mind, I would likely just play the year out and replace him with minimal fanfare if his skill level is not up to the league's standards.

 

[abe froman]

I fully admit that I'm an ####### FF football owner, and will take advantage of another player, it's just in me. I'm only the co-commish because the other guys want me to help out when I can. I'm just posting this to help out the main co-commish make a decision on how to deal with this, please focus on what should be done. Yes I'm a FF **** I know this, it's just in me.Please let me know what you guys would do in this situation,1. Can the guy now2. Wait till the end of the season3. Try to help him out this season4. Do nothing5. Kick me out of the leagueI just don't want this other guy to be kicked out of the league if it is not warranted, and if you think that is gone fine tell me and I'll even pass that info on to the commisioner. Telling me I'm a #### will not help us out right now, and if you do send me a PM, it's cool.

I dont think you can consider kicking him out as he's inexperienced, without considering you being removed also.. Id just let this year go. Sounds like you'll have alot more teams to fill next year or maybe just start over next year and be smarter. Just because you admit to being an owner that tries to take advantage of everyone doesnt make it ok.. change your "strategy" or go to a redraft format. Maybe then you can have a more compettitive league and less turnover.

 

[Grimace59]

Guess a little more info is need for this league and why it is the way it is. Three years ago it was started with one guy finding 14 people to play in a money league. Almost half way thru the league weird stuff happened, and the commish disappeared, money gone... so a couple of us tried to keep the league going with remaining owners, and since we still had money involved we kept three people involved to ensure it's safety. We redrafted the second year, and after that second year, one owner who drafted horribly left, and that started a domino affect with 4 people total. (including the one commish).

So this has been a patch work effort to keep this thing going the best we can after this issue.

Too many cooks in the kitchen has been an issue that i have seen, hence the reason I only want to be a consultant at best, and the vote idea is a good issue we have brought up.

The big thing is keep the guy thru this year and see what happens, thanks for the input and i will pass it on.

 

[blackbird001]

I think these things sort of work themselves out. You cannot under any circumstances get 12 guys to agree on player value. You may value RBs and stockpile them. I may value WRs and stockpile them.

In both of your trades I can see arguments being raised that indicate both owners are of sound mind and have logic.

For instance, I did not value Harvin coming out due to his character issues and his health. I'll admit, I undervalued him, but I still see him as a potential liability on any given week if he can't go. I can also see optimism for Hester, Knox, and Aromashadu pre-season. The way Martz gushed about Hester was difficult to watch. You also mention later that you threw in draft picks to even the deal, this is significant as the owner may be trying to rebuild in the draft.

Secondly, DeAngelo is currently low on value. He's on a bad team with a bad offense. Hasn't been performing and his contract is almost up. Who knows where he'll be dealt? Trading Knox and Ellis for him is not unreasonable. Many times a stud is dealt for 2-3 players. This usually happens with owners that have poor rosters as they are trying to fill out a lineup or increase depth.

Now, regardless of your examples, I think voting on trades is dumb. We had to scuttle it in our league because guys were voting down deals involving guys they didn't know were on the market and thinking they could up the offer for said player. Trades were voted down because a powerhouse team was getting stronger. You just can't expect 12 guys to agree on player value, so how can you expect 12 guys to apply the same standard in evaluating a deal?

The commish holds the only veto right and has yet to use it. Have there been deals I thought were uneven? sure. Has there been an owner who frequently seems to 'pay too much'? sure. But, it's his right. When a boneheaded deal goes down, the message board slams the guy who is perceived to have been taken advantage of. This has a correcting effect on his next deal. A guy who routinely wins lopsided deals? No one is interested in trading anything of significance on or off his team. He hasn't done a major deal in 2 years.

This stuff will correct itself and if the owner truly isn't cut out for dynasty, he will eventually get tired of paying the buy in and losing.

 

[Shutout]

I think these things sort of work themselves out. You cannot under any circumstances get 12 guys to agree on player value. You may value RBs and stockpile them. I may value WRs and stockpile them. In both of your trades I can see arguments being raised that indicate both owners are of sound mind and have logic. For instance, I did not value Harvin coming out due to his character issues and his health. I'll admit, I undervalued him, but I still see him as a potential liability on any given week if he can't go. I can also see optimism for Hester, Knox, and Aromashadu pre-season. The way Martz gushed about Hester was difficult to watch. You also mention later that you threw in draft picks to even the deal, this is significant as the owner may be trying to rebuild in the draft.Secondly, DeAngelo is currently low on value. He's on a bad team with a bad offense. Hasn't been performing and his contract is almost up. Who knows where he'll be dealt? Trading Knox and Ellis for him is not unreasonable. Many times a stud is dealt for 2-3 players. This usually happens with owners that have poor rosters as they are trying to fill out a lineup or increase depth.Now, regardless of your examples, I think voting on trades is dumb. We had to scuttle it in our league because guys were voting down deals involving guys they didn't know were on the market and thinking they could up the offer for said player. Trades were voted down because a powerhouse team was getting stronger. You just can't expect 12 guys to agree on player value, so how can you expect 12 guys to apply the same standard in evaluating a deal?The commish holds the only veto right and has yet to use it. Have there been deals I thought were uneven? sure. Has there been an owner who frequently seems to 'pay too much'? sure. But, it's his right. When a boneheaded deal goes down, the message board slams the guy who is perceived to have been taken advantage of. This has a correcting effect on his next deal. A guy who routinely wins lopsided deals? No one is interested in trading anything of significance on or off his team. He hasn't done a major deal in 2 years.This stuff will correct itself and if the owner truly isn't cut out for dynasty, he will eventually get tired of paying the buy in and losing.

This is it exactly. Too many variables and biases when people vote on trades. Its just impossible to not be biased sometimes and its just as impossible to truly KNOW the value of all the players in the short and long-term. I could trade Foster For LT today in a dynasty and look like an idiot, but next year Tate could be the guy in Houston and LT could be the next THomas Jones...I mean, really, who knows??So, it comes down to making your league better. Either by replacing the owner witha more knowledgeable one or you and your league mates exercising a little self control (and not sharking this guy) until he becomes the type of owner that is good for the league. The guy is paying money to participate...he will either get it or get gone soon enough.I personally like the second option because A)you have a guy that is interested and wants to play and everyone starts somewhere and B) its better (I think) for consistency in your league that to be swapping out owners constantly. High turnover is what REALLY kills a dynasty because guys come in and sell the farm for one burst, take cash, and leave (or come in, get fleeced, and leave). I would rather have a guy that is more known and is learning more about that league with each and every day.

 

[Wyld Stallyns]

DOOSH

 

[MIMN]

Interesting thread. The bottom line to me is that you asked the guy to play in the league and he accepted. He is not participating in collusion and would not deserve to be kicked out of the league mid-season. That is just crazy in my opinion.

Finish the season and if you decide not to invite him back then so be it.

It's not like he traded Peyton Manning for a kicker or something. If you want you could just tell him that it always seems he is getting the short end of the stick in trades. Don't review his trades for him but explain that he might want to make it known he is willing to trade a player before completing a trade. Then better offers could come in.

I think this is being completely overblown.

 

[dagwood]

Both trades actually involved my self.Trade one (Preseason, before Harvin's Migrain problems)He gives: Percy HarvinI give: Devin HesterTrade two He gives: DeAngello WilliamsI give: Johnnu Knox, & Benjarvis Green-EllisDeAngello Williams & Darren McFadden are his only playable running back, and made some questionable moves during the new owner draft. we had 4 new owners and they ok redrafting their teams with the abandoned player rather than take the teams as they were.This was brought up by the other two Commish's not myself, I have no problem keeping him around and fully don't agree with canning him midseason.

So if you choose 4. and honorably withdraw from the league, seems like the league would run fine.

 

[gandalas]

The funny thing is, he was actually taking advantage of YOU with that second trade offer, at least for this year so far...

BJGE has only a point or 2 less than Williams, and Knox is a top-30 WR so far as well.

This leads me to question trade vetoing at all...we had a similar issue in my league last offseason - before Tomlinson was released by the Chargers, a trade was completed of Arian Foster for LaDanian Tomlinson and Lance Moore.

Our league has a system where 2 other owners can ask the trade come up for a vote, and then it will be vetoed with a 75% consent of uninvolved owners. In this case, it was vetoed, as the majority thought that the Tomlinson owner was being short-changed. Now, it is certainly the opposite...

 

[Hoosier16]

Keep in mind this is 12 man Dynasty league, with a $50 buy in it's 3rd year. We had some turn over after it's 1st year with new owners, and this was one of them. The entire league agreed to prepay half of next year in advance for if people drop.

I don't see the issue if he has already paid half of next year's money. There is a learning curve with dynasty (compared to redraft). Those trades are not as horrible in a redraft. Maybe he just needs a year to learn.

 

[Road Warriors]

Both trades actually involved my self.

Trade one (Preseason, before Harvin's Migrain problems)

He gives: Percy Harvin

I give: Devin Hester

Trade two

He gives: DeAngello Williams

I give: Johnnu Knox, & Benjarvis Green-Ellis

DeAngello Williams & Darren McFadden are his only playable running back, and made some questionable moves during the new owner draft. we had 4 new owners and they ok redrafting their teams with the abandoned player rather than take the teams as they were.

This was brought up by the other two Commish's not myself, I have no problem keeping him around and fully don't agree with canning him midseason.

Neither of these are veto-able, and I can see the reasoning for each of them. Preseason, Hester was one of the "high upside" guys with Martz coming in. Harvin was a Felix-like big play, limited touch player ( who had lost his complementary deep threat in Rice ) Not a terrible deal at the time.DWill for Knox/BJGE is a typical 2-1 deal. You like for you because you get a name RB stud who's underperformed. He likes it because he gets a startable RB on a good offense and a startable WR. This is basically a good deal for both parties. I'm not sure I'd trade to acquire DWill this year... I don't see him performing up to his "name value" in that offense. Its likely that by years end, your trading partner gets the better scoring end of this deal. Being dynasty, Williams should produce better long-term, so that's where your value comes in.

In all, neither of these trades should be viewed as fleecings, IMO. And certainly shouldn't lead to any action against the owner executing them.

 

[dapunisher]

The funny thing is, he was actually taking advantage of YOU with that second trade offer, at least for this year so far...

BJGE has only a point or 2 less than Williams, and Knox is a top-30 WR so far as well.

This leads me to question trade vetoing at all...we had a similar issue in my league last offseason - before Tomlinson was released by the Chargers, a trade was completed of Arian Foster for LaDanian Tomlinson and Lance Moore.

Our league has a system where 2 other owners can ask the trade come up for a vote, and then it will be vetoed with a 75% consent of uninvolved owners. In this case, it was vetoed, as the majority thought that the Tomlinson owner was being short-changed. Now, it is certainly the opposite...

Excellent post and I especially agree with the bold portion above.

 

[harryhood]

The funny thing is, he was actually taking advantage of YOU with that second trade offer, at least for this year so far...

BJGE has only a point or 2 less than Williams, and Knox is a top-30 WR so far as well.

This leads me to question trade vetoing at all...we had a similar issue in my league last offseason - before Tomlinson was released by the Chargers, a trade was completed of Arian Foster for LaDanian Tomlinson and Lance Moore.

Our league has a system where 2 other owners can ask the trade come up for a vote, and then it will be vetoed with a 75% consent of uninvolved owners. In this case, it was vetoed, as the majority thought that the Tomlinson owner was being short-changed. Now, it is certainly the opposite...

Excellent post and I especially agree with the bold portion above.

Exactly - people play FF their own way(and use their own $$$ too). Maybe a guy gets a hunch, thats what makes this fun. Why veto anything unless there was blatant cheating?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Both trades actually involved my self.Trade one (Preseason, before Harvin's Migrain problems)He gives: Percy HarvinI give: Devin HesterTrade two He gives: DeAngello WilliamsI give: Johnnu Knox, & Benjarvis Green-EllisDeAngello Williams & Darren McFadden are his only playable running back, and made some questionable moves during the new owner draft. we had 4 new owners and they ok redrafting their teams with the abandoned player rather than take the teams as they were.This was brought up by the other two Commish's not myself, I have no problem keeping him around and fully don't agree with canning him midseason.

Is this guy making other bad trades to upset the league, because while these are bad (I don't think the second trade was all that bad), they are not all the egrecious. Many people were high on Hester heading into the season - Harvin is the much better talent, but that trade is at least justifiable.

 

[CaptainHook]

yea. trades seem fine. harden up.

 

[gebz306]

Not a fan of letting anybody run his team. We create an "All Madden" team. Simply put, whoever plays that team has to beat the league average points scored for that week. IMO, its not an easy win.

 

[Dragon1952]

Nothing worse than a 'looped sided' trade