All Fitzgerald said was that Rice was more athletic than him.
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Ten Most Talented WRs in the NFL (1 Viewer)
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perry147
Footballguy
Exactly.
I've said it before, and I know it's not a popular opinion, but I consider health to be a skill- or, at the very least, to be a physical attribute just like speed or leaping ability. If I'm considering "speed" or "size" to be talents, then I'm free to consider health as such, as well.
doowain
Footballguy
A lot of people are missing this. Throw FF production out the window. I think this list was meant to get discussion on the most physically gifted WRs in the league, not for FF. I think the OP stated that obviously enough.1a. Calvin - not a WR in the league (outside Moss) can touch him physically. We all seem to overlook that he's produced at a high level in Detroit AND with either below average QBs or a rookie throwing to him.1b. Moss - even at 32, he's the best in the game IMO. That just speaks to his physical gifts.2. Fitz - we all know the story. He has the best hands and ball tracking ability of any WR in the NFL.3. AJ - he looks like a LB playing WR to me. How do you defend that? Big, strong, fast....his wingspan and hands seem larger than anyone in the league. He's a racehorse in a jersey.CONSIDERABLE DROP OFF4. Ocho - IMO, the best route runner in the NFL. A lot will say that no one gets open better than Fitz.....I believe that about Chad. Forget about all of his antics. Watch him play....you'll see what I mean.5. Steve Smith - You can't jam him, but you can't give him a cushion. He'll either rip your head off or run past you. He plays like he's 7 foot tall.6. Marshall - YAC...no one is better. Wish I had more time. I'll try to round out a Top 10 later. This is a little rushed, so I apologize if it seems that way.
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editor47
Footballguy
desean jackson is 5-10 175 and he's a clear no. 1 even though he's smaller than both of them.Bush - Height: 6-0 Weight: 203 Harvin - Height: 5-11 Weight: 184I'd say that makes Harvin smaller than Bush.I don't ever see Harvin as a #1 guy in the NFL - hard to put someone like that in the top-10.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Sure you can and I'm not saying otherwise, my response was directed at "How many players are top 10 year to year?" If we're talking about talent, most of them should be the same last year as this year. Some rookies will come in, some guys like Rice will show their talent, others will drop off, but most will remain consistent. Sidebar - on a pure talent perspective, how do TEs like Gonzo, Gates, and Witten compare? IMO, Gates and Gonzo are every bit as talented as the 2nd tier, not sure they quite reach the big 4.
To me Marshall is the ideal package of route running, speed, size, YAC skills and hands. For the person who mentioned he doesn't take his craft seriously. I disagree, although a malcontent he has ALWAYS produced on the field and has never missed time do to injury. It is also clear that he made Cutler a to QB not the other way around. He is now making Orton a borderline top 10 QB.
Andre Johnson
Fitz
Calvin
These three seem to be everyones consensus top 3. AJ does not get the TDs and did have injury issues earlier in career, Fitz has probably the best QB in history throwing to him and Calvin has proven to be injury prone...one great season and two injury riddled seasons as a pro.
I would describe Marshall as a combo between TO and Moss....now if he can get his head on straight he will be the best NFL and FF receiver for years to come.
Andre Johnson
Fitz
Calvin
These three seem to be everyones consensus top 3. AJ does not get the TDs and did have injury issues earlier in career, Fitz has probably the best QB in history throwing to him and Calvin has proven to be injury prone...one great season and two injury riddled seasons as a pro.
I would describe Marshall as a combo between TO and Moss....now if he can get his head on straight he will be the best NFL and FF receiver for years to come.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Touchdown Syndrome
Footballguy
just on talent:
1.Calvin Johnson
2.Randy Moss
3.Andre johnson
4.Larry Fitzgerald
5.Vincent Jackson
6.Brandon Marshall
7.Roddy White
8.Steve Smith (CAR)
9.Reggie Wayne
10.Marques Colston
1.Calvin Johnson
2.Randy Moss
3.Andre johnson
4.Larry Fitzgerald
5.Vincent Jackson
6.Brandon Marshall
7.Roddy White
8.Steve Smith (CAR)
9.Reggie Wayne
10.Marques Colston
DoubleG
Footballguy
There are some major differences between Housh and Colston (and ones that drastically change they're values both in the NFL and in FF):1) Housh is 6' 1" and not known for his leaping ability - Colston is 6' 5" and has great leaping ability. Colston is a much better Redzone/Goal line target.
2) Colston is faster than Housh (by about a tenth of second in the 40).
3) Colston is 7 years younger and on a better offense. (Neither having much to do with talent per se - but obviously factors in production).
So while Colston is, indeed a great posession receiver in that he is a big target and has good hands - that is not all he is. In his 9 year career, Housh has 568 receptions with 40 TDs - in his 4 year career, Colston has had 265 receptions, with 32 of them being TDs. To put that in perspective - at his current TD% rate, if Colston had 568 receptions he'd have 69 career TDs (not 40 as Housh does).
I was the one who said Marshall doesn't take his craft seriously. I'm a big-time Denver fan who follows the team closely. I stand behind my statement 100%. Also, Brandon Marshall absolutely positively DID NOT make Cutler. Denver's offensive line did.Fitz has Kurt Warner throwing to him now, but what about in 2005? That season, Kurt Warner was a journeyman who nobody wanted, playing for his 3rd team in 3 years. Warner threw 56% of Arizona's passes, and the other 44% were some combination of Josh McCown and John Navarre (I don't think you'd call either of them the best QB in history, would you?). Fitzgerald posted 103/1409/10. Marshall's best season is 102/1325/7. Both players were second-year guys, so you can't play the age card. Larry Fitzgerald posted better numbers catching half of his balls from a washed up Kurt Warner and the other half from McCown/Navarre than Marshall did with Jay Cutler. Your argument doesn't pass the sniff test.UFO said:
This is another example of using stats out of context - in 2005 the Cardinals ranked first in passing attempts with 670 compared to the league average of 514. In 2007, the Broncos ranked 21st in passing attempts with 515. SO, it should be no surprise that two WRs from that team topped 100 catches.Arizona finished 5-11, and was clearly slinging the ball all over the place. That year Boldin was second on the team with 102 catches. In 2007, Scheffler was second with 49 catches for Denver and Stokely was the 2nd best WR with 40. Marshall was clearly the offensive focal point, yet was still able to put up dominant numbers. Fitzgerald had the benefit of being in a good system where passes were plentiful, and which had two WR targets preventing teams from focusing the defense on him.
Of the two years, Marshall's was clearly a better performance, given what each was working with. Marshall did more with less around him.
This is not to say that Fitzgerald is not a great WR - but the stats you cited are misleading.
Instinctive
Footballguy
The difference in passing attempts could be exactly the looks Boldin got....in which case the Fitz argument stands I would think. What were Fitz/Marshall catch percentage breakdown?
Weapon of Mass Instruction
Watch my feet!
Talented? Kenny Britt
But, he is the youngest player in the NFL and just isn't there yet. Coming on fast, though. He'll be a perennial top 10er by his 3rd year.
But, he is the youngest player in the NFL and just isn't there yet. Coming on fast, though. He'll be a perennial top 10er by his 3rd year.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
I hate to say it, but this is true. If he were on a team like the Colts, Pats, Cards, etc. he'd easily have numbers like the WRs on those teams.
Chaka
Footballguy
Is catching the ball a talent?
I don't think the stats are misleading in the slightest, but perhaps you'd prefer comparing Fitzgerald 2005 to Marshall 2008, instead? The '05 Cardinals ranked 1st with 670 pass attempts. The '08 Broncos ranked 3rd with 620. Pretty comparable.In 2005, Larry Fitz was catching balls from pre-triumphant-return Warner, as well as McCown and Navarre. In 2008, Marshall was catching balls from Jay Cutler. Advantage: Marshall.In 2005, Larry Fitz was competing for touches with Anquan Boldin, who had the highest receiving yardage per game figure in NFL history (still does, for that matter). In 2008, Marshall was competing for touches with Eddie Royal, a rookie. Advantage: Marshall.In 2005, nobody respected Arizona's run game. It ranked 32nd in attempts, 32nd in yards, 32nd in TDs, and 32nd in YPA. In 2008, Denver's run game ranked 28th in attempts, but despite that still managed to rank 12th in yards, 14th in TDs, and a whopping 3rd in YPA. Advantage: Marshall.In 2005, Arizona's offensive line was merely average at pass blocking and struggled to keep the QB upright long enough to throw. They allowed 45 sacks and gave up a sack on 6.3% of passing plays. In 2008, Denver's O-line was the best in the league. Denver's QBs were sacked just 12 times, which worked out to a sack on a mere 1.9% of all passing plays. Advantage: Marshall.In 2005, Fitz put up 103/1409/10. In 2008, Marshall put up 104/1265/6. Nothing misleading there.
In 2005, Fitz had 165 targets and a 62% catch rate (8.54 yards per target). In '07, Marshall had 170 targets and a 60% catch rate (7.79 ypt). In '08, Marshall had an OBSCENE 181 targets with a mere 57% catch% (6.99 ypt). You really can't claim that Fitz had better numbers because Arizona passed more, because Marshall had more targets in each of the last two years than Fitz had in '05.
Instinctive
Footballguy
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Advantage: PushIn 2005, a pre-triumphant Warner had a 85.8 QB rating. 2008 Cutler had a 86 QB rating.
Advantage: Fitzgerald.You are looking at it from a different angle. When the defenses were game-planning each team - who do you think got more attention? Marshall or the rookie Royal. When defenses were game-planning against Arizona - you had two equally dynamic WRs to cover - meaning neither could get the full attention of the defense - meaning the coverage was not as tight on Fitzgerald as it was on Marshall.Now that we have seen a bit more of Cutler - it should be pretty clear that he prefers to throw into double and triple coverage. Meaning that the targets were much tougher for Marshall, and the catches more impressive.
Advantage: PushClearly defenses were not focused on stopping either running game. The fact that Denver was moderately successful shows that defenses were not trying to stop the run against the Broncos. The Cardinals were not effective at running the ball, but they also had more dump-offs to the top-two RBs (69-24).
Not sure where you are going with this - it really has minimal impact on pass attempts or completions. Arizona was sacked more often because they were in catch-up mode almost all season. The Broncos had a winning record until late in the year. Its easier to get a sack when the defense has its proverbial ears pinned back.
no argument hereFitzgerald is a great WR. So is Marshall. They are each in different situations.
switz
Footballguy
Pure talent?
1. Moss - most talented WR to enter NFL in 20 years
2. Calvin - has it all
3. Fitz - all around talent
4. Sidney Rice - one of the most athletically gifted WRs I've seen
5. AJ - not much to say about this one
6. Owens - not producing without targets, and he's dropped off a bit
7. Brandon Marshall - the beast
8. Desean Jackson - speed to burn
9. Antonio Bryant - health and attitude have affected production, but probably top-5 in terms of talent alone
10. Percy Harvin - very raw, but on talent alone, he deserves mention
1. Moss - most talented WR to enter NFL in 20 years
2. Calvin - has it all
3. Fitz - all around talent
4. Sidney Rice - one of the most athletically gifted WRs I've seen
5. AJ - not much to say about this one
6. Owens - not producing without targets, and he's dropped off a bit
7. Brandon Marshall - the beast
8. Desean Jackson - speed to burn
9. Antonio Bryant - health and attitude have affected production, but probably top-5 in terms of talent alone
10. Percy Harvin - very raw, but on talent alone, he deserves mention
switz
Footballguy
I would put him in top-15, not top-10. But I have been REALLY high on the kid since before the draft.
I'm surprise people are mentioning Harvin and not looking at other rookies that are having an impact. Jeremy Maclin is putting up very similar numbers as Harvin and has started every game. He looks like he'll be a good one too. Although I wouldn't put him in the top ten at the moment.
switz
Footballguy
production <> talent
perry147
Footballguy
I know VY has looked better in recent weeks, but do you really think that offense with VY can produce a top 15 WR?
switz
Footballguy
Again, we're talking talent, not production. Talent isn't determined by who your QB is, some of the most talented WRs have been busts (Derrick Mayes with GB). Britt is probably top-15 in terms of talent, regardless of production.
Um....Have you seen him play? I think you can make a case that Maclin is in the ballpark talent wise. I referenced numbers as evidence.
switz
Footballguy
Yes, I have. I own him on my dynasty team, love the kid... BUT he's not in the same ballpark of talent as Harvin. I'd even put him below Britt in terms of sheer talent, top-20 maybe.
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The QB rating differences were entirely due to interceptions, which had no impact on either Fitzgerald or Marshall. '08 Cutler averaged 7.3 ypa and had a 4.1% TD percentage. '05 Warner averaged 7.2 ypa and had a 2.9% TD percentage. Warner's comp% was higher, but ypa already accounts for that, and Cutler wins in ypa. Plus, you conveniently ignored the fact that Kurt Warner only threw half of Arizona's passes- this isn't Cutler vs. Warner, this is Cutler vs. Warner/McCown/Navarre. Arizona as a whole averaged 6.6 yards per attempt passing. Advantage: Marshall.Sinn Fein said:
This effect is wildly overblown in fantasy circles. Throwing into tighter coverages is more likely to result in an INT, but it doesn't necessarily make it more difficult for the WR. If you look at the history of WR2s who became WR1s in year N+1, you'll see that on the whole they actually saw a slight INCREASE in catch%, despite facing tougher coverages. And besides, any drop in stats due to tougher coverage is more than mitigated by an increase in stats due to increased targets. If Fitz didn't have Boldin next to him, he might have posted 200 targets in '05, in which case he would have DESTROYED Marshall.
Do you really mean to suggest that comparing a team ranked 32nd in ypc to a team ranked 3rd in ypc is a "push"? Or that the 12th ranked running team commands as much (or as little) respect as the 32nd ranked running team? Really? REALLY?The fact that Denver was "moderately successful" (read: wildly successful) had nothing to do with any respect they might be receiving and everything to do with how dominant Denver's running game was (starting and ending with the NFL's best offensive line).
The point is that when your line can't pass protect, your WRs have less time to get open. Regardless of the reasons WHY the line can't pass protect, a poor offensive line makes life more difficult for WRs.Look, Marshall is a great WR. He made my top 10 (I think I had him at 7th). He's a great talent. He's not in Fitzgerald's class, either in terms of talent OR in terms of production. It's Joe Horn vs. Randy Moss. It's Derrick Mason vs. Marvin Harrison.
In Harvin's ballpark? Well, they're playing the same sport, so I guess he is in the ballpark. Harvin is a much better talent, though.mo542 said:
I'm not sure you can make the statement that he is not in the same ballpark. If you've seen Maclin play, then you saw plays were he burned the defense and McNabb couldn't get him the ball becuase the o-line can't keep him clean for more than two seconds. You also saw a boatload of correctable mistakes on Maclin's part. However, you also saw some amazing plays by Maclin that makes you think he could be a top WR. If we are talking talent, I believe that he is in the same ballpark. I also believe that Harvin gets all the hype becuase he is on a better offense/team. Not to mention that the Eagles had the chance to take Harvin and took Maclin instead. I'm not taking anything away from Harvin, my point is that I think Maclin is being overlooked.switz said:
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wickster33
Footballguy
whoa, I've been a big fan of Maclin since his days at Mizzou with Chase, but I can't put him in the same talent pool with Harvin. I think a lot of defensive coordinators would agree with me. When is the last time you saw a team isolate their best defender on a slot receiver or the 3rd WR. It routinely happens to Harvin. Take a look at the crispness of the routes he runs and remember that he was primarily a tailback at Florida.
Again, I do like Maclin and feel that he and Jax give Philly a potent receiving corps. Percy is just special, and as long as he doesn't do something stupid off the field, he will be a eprreniel all-star.
Again, I do like Maclin and feel that he and Jax give Philly a potent receiving corps. Percy is just special, and as long as he doesn't do something stupid off the field, he will be a eprreniel all-star.
switz
Footballguy
In terms of pure talent Mayes was way up there. Even Sterling Sharpe said Mayes was the most talented WR he'd ever played with. It didn't translate into production, no argument there. My reference to him was exactly for that point though - talent <> production.
Chaka
Footballguy
I don't think that Sterling Sharpe has demonstrated any particular ability at talent evaluationWhat factors do you think prevented Mayes from producing with his alleged talent?
I'm not buying it.
Your premise is that Maclin is comparable to Harvin in deep ball ability, and is therefore comparable to Harvin in talent. Even if we accept the first premise as true (Harvin is faster and more electric with the ball in his hands), that's just a small part of Harvin's game. Remember, the kid played RB in college (I don't mean he got some carries, I mean he was officially listed as an RB on the depth chart). Harvin's also a LOT stronger (click on me!), and Harvin is just tapping his potential because this is the first time in his career he's been asked to run NFL routes.
I didn't even mention the deep ball.
encaitar
Footballguy
This is really the biggest difference IMO. I've seen WRs that have great after the catch ability, but Harvin looks like a whole different animal after the catch. Most WRs will jump and juke and try to run around a defender. Harvin makes subtle cuts and moves upfield like a RB because that's really what he was taught to do at Florida. He is as fluid in his cuts as any running back in football right now, there's no jumping or stopping it's just changing directions at full speed.
Well considering that more than one team had Maclin rated as the top receiver in the draft I'm sure there are some scouts that would agree with me.
Maclin's numbers are close and he doesn't have the weapons around him that the Vikings do. Having a safety creeping up to stop AP will open up the middle for Harvin. I like Harvin, but I think is he getting hyped a bit too much. It's not like he is having a rookie season like Randy Moss. Either way, we'll find out in a few years.
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What is the bolded portion talking about, then?I didn't even mention the deep ball.
My point was the Eagles offensive line has not been very good this season and that has had a negative impact on the offense, but you can see the plays there if you watch the game. I did not make a comparison between Maclin and Harvin on the deep ball, so I'm not sure what your post was about. I'm not knocking Harvin, I'm just saying I think that Maclin has shown potential too but is under the radar.What is the bolded portion talking about, then?
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