Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah' (1 Viewer)

[FlapJacks]

When that kid grows up to be the actual Messiah, that judge is going to feel a tad embarrased...

 

[B-Deep]

so far no one thinks the judge was right here

this is gonna be it we are all going to agree!!!!

a thread involving religion AND courts where EVERYONE agrees

historic!

i'm prolly gonna get the Nobel Prize for starting this thread, and I will thank each and every one of you

The decision is wrong, but she's right in that the kid would suffer because of the name. But that's on the parents. There are lots of horrible names out there and judges shouldn't have a right to change them except in the most extreme cases. I don't think this reaches that extreme.Although my wife did remark to me that if the kid in her class actually went by Messiah she would have either requested him moved or used a different name for him.

I'll focus on the first partbut i think your wife is WAY off base in the second

WAY off base

What if she were Muslim and the kid's name was Allah? Or if the kid's name was Ni*****?If a parent wants to give their kid a name that could be offensive to some people that's on them. But I see no reason why anyone should be forced to respect their stupidity and use the name.

Messiah is not a slur

I think teachers should be forced to respect their students even if they disagree with their interpretation of religion. It makes me wonder what other children she may refuse to teach

And with that, I'm out. So much for civility or not making things personal. Once again the FFA shows its true colors.

i thought it was a legit point

i did not intend to piss you off, only to explore where her lines was. This seemed like a line she drew a line in the sand over a farily benign issue

but i apologize if I crossed the line there

 

[greenroom]

so far no one thinks the judge was right here

this is gonna be it we are all going to agree!!!!

a thread involving religion AND courts where EVERYONE agrees

historic!

i'm prolly gonna get the Nobel Prize for starting this thread, and I will thank each and every one of you

The decision is wrong, but she's right in that the kid would suffer because of the name. But that's on the parents. There are lots of horrible names out there and judges shouldn't have a right to change them except in the most extreme cases. I don't think this reaches that extreme.Although my wife did remark to me that if the kid in her class actually went by Messiah she would have either requested him moved or used a different name for him.

I'll focus on the first partbut i think your wife is WAY off base in the second

WAY off base

What if she were Muslim and the kid's name was Allah? Or if the kid's name was Ni*****?If a parent wants to give their kid a name that could be offensive to some people that's on them. But I see no reason why anyone should be forced to respect their stupidity and use the name.

Messiah is not a slur

I think teachers should be forced to respect their students even if they disagree with their interpretation of religion. It makes me wonder what other children she may refuse to teach

And with that, I'm out. So much for civility or not making things personal. Once again the FFA shows its true colors.

i thought it was a legit point

i did not intend to piss you off, only to explore where her lines was. This seemed like a line she drew a line in the sand over a farily benign issue

but i apologize if I crossed the line there

Not sure why you are apologizing. Grove Diesel brought his wife into the story, with a point as an educator that she would move a child based on his name? And you just questioned why that would be. I am sorry GD got upset, but he is the one that made it personal for everyone and he needs to own his actions, and not blame others for asking a valid question of why a teacher would remove a child due to a name that is not offensive.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Guessing that judge was not a God Shammgod fan.

 

[Jackstraw]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

So the thousands of people naming their kid that are just doing it to insult people?

Not at all. But it's insulting all the same, IMO. I suppose it depends on where you live. If I chose to live in a part of Tennessee which was 90% conservative Christian, I wouldn't do it. It's disrespectful to the community I chose to live in. I would have a RIGHT to do it, but it would be stupid- for me and my kid.

If I lived in a more cosmopolitan area, I suppose it's OK. Nobody's going to care. But I wouldn't try and join a conservative church or synagogue and expect to get approval.

I don't think she's saying he's THE messiah.

 

[B-Deep]

maybe he was named after Messiah college?

and why isn't THEIR name a problem, i am pretty sure they are not THE Messiah either, nor can one get a Messiah degree from them

 

[Todd Andrews]

You know while we are thinking of these things Christ is a title not a name. His parents weren't Joseph and Mary Christ after all. Christ is a translation of the Hebrew Messiah. So since Jews don't think Jesus was the messiah did he really earn the title? It is a Jewish title after all.

The answer is no. Jesus of Nazareth is only one of several Jews throughout history to claim the title of Messiah (one of the most famous was the 17th century Rabbi Shabbatai Zvi.) The Messiah is not the son of God, but more like a reincarnation of Moses, and supposed to lead the wandering Jews back to Israel. Since (1) Jesus was already in Jerusalem (2) He only preached to a very few people (3) after He died, more Jews actually LEFT the Holy Land than arrived there, it's hard to see from a Jewish perspective how Jesus could be the Messiah.

Jesus claiming to be the Jewish Messiah is like me starting my own football league, winning it, and then claiming to be Superbowl champion.

Boy, that is a pretty narrow, historically inaccurate and just bad definition of messiah from the Jewish perspective. Are you sure you are Jewish and/or informed on the topic?

All Jewish kings were "messiahs" because the term literally means "anointed one". As originally used, it could even apply to non-Jewish kings, and non-kings like high priests, etc. Once Israel was occupied, primarily during the occupation of the Romans, the term was used to describe a liberator, and he was typically described as a "king" from the royal house of David. Obviously, there were both secular and religious blurred meanings going on with this usage (the sicarii and pharisees obviously had somewhat different concepts of the messiah, for example).

So, contrary to Tim's remarkably uninformed post above, it was perfectly reasonable and factually accurate that many Jews at the time thought Jesus was the messiah. After the destruction of the temple and the diaspora, and the societal and religious challenges that came with it, the understanding of the role of the messiah changed to one more like the narrow definition Tim gave us. But it had nothing to do with the understanding of the messiah prior to the destruction of the Temple. And without getting really complicated, there were a number of different streams of pre-Jesus thought about the messiah: from more secular to more religious, more warlike to more peaceful.

This judge is an anti-libertarian fundie KooK. And that kids parents are idiots.

 

[ncc2]

You know while we are thinking of these things Christ is a title not a name. His parents weren't Joseph and Mary Christ after all. Christ is a translation of the Hebrew Messiah. So since Jews don't think Jesus was the messiah did he really earn the title? It is a Jewish title after all.

The answer is no. Jesus of Nazareth is only one of several Jews throughout history to claim the title of Messiah (one of the most famous was the 17th century Rabbi Shabbatai Zvi.) The Messiah is not the son of God, but more like a reincarnation of Moses, and supposed to lead the wandering Jews back to Israel. Since (1) Jesus was already in Jerusalem (2) He only preached to a very few people (3) after He died, more Jews actually LEFT the Holy Land than arrived there, it's hard to see from a Jewish perspective how Jesus could be the Messiah.

Jesus claiming to be the Jewish Messiah is like me starting my own football league, winning it, and then claiming to be Superbowl champion.

Boy, that is a pretty narrow, historically inaccurate and just bad definition of messiah from the Jewish perspective. Are you sure you are Jewish and/or informed on the topic?

All Jewish kings were "messiahs" because the term literally means "anointed one". As originally used, it could even apply to non-Jewish kings, and non-kings like high priests, etc. Once Israel was occupied, primarily during the occupation of the Romans, the term was used to describe a liberator, and he was typically described as a "king" from the royal house of David. Obviously, there were both secular and religious blurred meanings going on with this usage (the sicarii and pharisees obviously had somewhat different concepts of the messiah, for example).

So, contrary to Tim's remarkably uninformed post above, it was perfectly reasonable and factually accurate that many Jews at the time thought Jesus was the messiah. After the destruction of the temple and the diaspora, and the societal and religious challenges that came with it, the understanding of the role of the messiah changed to one more like the narrow definition Tim gave us. But it had nothing to do with the understanding of the messiah prior to the destruction of the Temple. And without getting really complicated, there were a number of different streams of pre-Jesus thought about the messiah: from more secular to more religious, more warlike to more peaceful.

This judge is an anti-libertarian fundie KooK. And that kids parents are idiots.

Go ask a rabbi if the Messiah has come yet.

 

[Jaysus]

maybe he was named after Messiah college?

and why isn't THEIR name a problem, i am pretty sure they are not THE Messiah either, nor can one get a Messiah degree from them

I was at Messiah College this weekend!

P.S. bigger maroon: that Tenn. Judge, or Groove deisel

 

[Steve Tasker]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

c'mon now.

 

[mr roboto]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

So the thousands of people naming their kid that are just doing it to insult people?

Not at all. But it's insulting all the same, IMO. I suppose it depends on where you live. If I chose to live in a part of Tennessee which was 90% conservative Christian, I wouldn't do it. It's disrespectful to the community I chose to live in. I would have a RIGHT to do it, but it would be stupid- for me and my kid.If I lived in a more cosmopolitan area, I suppose it's OK. Nobody's going to care. But I wouldn't try and join a conservative church or synagogue and expect to get approval.

So in Tennessee, everyone would care, but in a more cosmopolitan area there aren't any Christians? How do you not wear yourself out with all that sweeping generalities?

 

[Guest]

Messiah is a better middle name anyway. Maybe throw in a "De" before it. Justin DeMessiah Bieber.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Or if the kid's name was Ni*****?

#4

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2008/07/talula_does_the_hula_from_hawaii.html

 

[timschochet]

You know while we are thinking of these things Christ is a title not a name. His parents weren't Joseph and Mary Christ after all. Christ is a translation of the Hebrew Messiah. So since Jews don't think Jesus was the messiah did he really earn the title? It is a Jewish title after all.

The answer is no. Jesus of Nazareth is only one of several Jews throughout history to claim the title of Messiah (one of the most famous was the 17th century Rabbi Shabbatai Zvi.) The Messiah is not the son of God, but more like a reincarnation of Moses, and supposed to lead the wandering Jews back to Israel. Since (1) Jesus was already in Jerusalem (2) He only preached to a very few people (3) after He died, more Jews actually LEFT the Holy Land than arrived there, it's hard to see from a Jewish perspective how Jesus could be the Messiah.Jesus claiming to be the Jewish Messiah is like me starting my own football league, winning it, and then claiming to be Superbowl champion.

Boy, that is a pretty narrow, historically inaccurate and just bad definition of messiah from the Jewish perspective. Are you sure you are Jewish and/or informed on the topic?

All Jewish kings were "messiahs" because the term literally means "anointed one". As originally used, it could even apply to non-Jewish kings, and non-kings like high priests, etc. Once Israel was occupied, primarily during the occupation of the Romans, the term was used to describe a liberator, and he was typically described as a "king" from the royal house of David. Obviously, there were both secular and religious blurred meanings going on with this usage (the sicarii and pharisees obviously had somewhat different concepts of the messiah, for example).

So, contrary to Tim's remarkably uninformed post above, it was perfectly reasonable and factually accurate that many Jews at the time thought Jesus was the messiah. After the destruction of the temple and the diaspora, and the societal and religious challenges that came with it, the understanding of the role of the messiah changed to one more like the narrow definition Tim gave us. But it had nothing to do with the understanding of the messiah prior to the destruction of the Temple. And without getting really complicated, there were a number of different streams of pre-Jesus thought about the messiah: from more secular to more religious, more warlike to more peaceful.

This judge is an anti-libertarian fundie KooK. And that kids parents are idiots.

What the hell are you babbling on about? What you wrote has nothing to do with the Jewish belief in the Messiah. If this were a Woody Allen movie, I'd bring Marshal McCluhan in right now to tell you what a doofus you are.

 

[parrot]

She should name him Yahweh.

And his twin brother Nohweh.

 

[bostonfred]

Did they say how she came up with Martin? Is that a pretty common nickname, like Harold -> Harry and William -> Bill? Or does the judge just like Martin? Or is it because Martin was the proper name of the first time traveler?

 

[McGarnicle]

Good compromise: change the kid's name to Tebow.

 

[Zow]

I actually find this to be a pretty interesting case - and a perfect microcosm of family court.

When two parents bring a case before a family court judge, they are essentially asking the judge to make a major decision for their child (be it parenting time with either parent, child support, which parent gets to decide medical issues, etc.). The only guideline a judge really has to follow (outside some general statutory factors) is that her decision must be in the best interests of the child. Ironically, the parents are asking the judge to someone know this with maybe an hour or two of testimony - which naturally only provides a snippet of the whole story involving people the judge doesn't know. While I disagree with what the judge did here, arguably the judge did what the parents asked her to do.

It's also the perfect microcosm because both parents walked away completely unsatisfied with the judge's decisions. Which pretty much happens in every family court case.

 

[Zow]

Did they say how she came up with Martin? Is that a pretty common nickname, like Harold -> Harry and William -> Bill? Or does the judge just like Martin? Or is it because Martin was the proper name of the first time traveler?

I think it's the father's name?

ETA: It's the mother's last name.

 

[B-Deep]

UPDATE!!!!

NEWPORT, Tenn. — A Tennessee judge reversed a ruling Wednesday ordering a mother to change her 8-month-old's name from "Messiah."

The boy's mother, Jaleesa Martin, and father could not agree on a last name, which is how they ended up at a child support hearing in Cocke County Chancery Court last month.

Child Support Magistrate Lu Ann Ballew ordered the baby's name be "Martin DeShawn McCullough." His name included both parents' last names but left out Messiah.

"The word 'Messiah' is a title, and it's a title that has only been earned by one person - and that one person is Jesus Christ," Ballew said.

On Wednesday, Chancellor Telford E. Forgety Jr. overturned Ballew's decision, ruling that the lower court acted unconstitutionally. He said the lower court violated the establishment clause of the U.S. Constitution, and added that the court's purpose was to determine the last name of the child, not his first name.

Jeleesa Martin's attorney said they appealed Ballew's decision for two reasons: the mother and the father agreed on the first name, and the decision was unconstitutional.

"I was shocked. I never intended on naming my son Messiah because it means God and I didn't think a judge could make me change my baby's name because of her religious beliefs," said Martin.

The child's name is now Messiah DeShawn McCollough. McCollough is the father's name.

Martin said she's relieved.

"I'm just happy — I really don't have nothing to say. I'm just glad it's over with," said Martin after the ruling.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Praise the Lord!

 

[NCCommish]

Well I am glad they got the law right but how about the adults growing up a bit? Got to go to court to get the last name figured out? Then maybe you shouldn't make the kid to start with.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Back up...the judge/magistrate is named "Lu Ann"?

 

[NCCommish]

Back up...the judge/magistrate is named "Lu Ann"?

it is Tennessee.

 

[Fennis]

Back up...the judge/magistrate is named "Lu Ann"?

I would rather name my kid Messiah than Lu Ann.

 

[Arizona Ron]

"It could put him at odds with a lot of people and at this point he has had no choice in what his name is," Ballew said.

This is a good point, actually. I don't agree with a judge ruling on this though.

 

[B-Deep]

"It could put him at odds with a lot of people and at this point he has had no choice in what his name is," Ballew said.

This is a good point, actually. I don't agree with a judge ruling on this though.

it would seem to me that anyone who professes to follow jesus would understand that this child did not choose his name and would not act any differently towards him at all

which is what i would assume jesus would do

unless, of course, being judgmental and arrogant about your religion is more important than following said religion...which sadly we know is often the case

 

[SacramentoBob]

I keep reading the title as "teen judge".

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

this

 

[B-Deep]

which name would be discriminated against more

Mohammed or messiah?

 

[NCCommish]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

this

Must be an awful lot of people trying to insult the religious out there given the growing popularity of the name. How much you want to bet most people using this name claim to be Christians?

 

[avoiding injuries]

"It could put him at odds with a lot of people and at this point he has had no choice in what his name is," Ballew said.

This is a good point, actually. I don't agree with a judge ruling on this though.

it would seem to me that anyone who professes to follow jesus would understand that this child did not choose his name and would not act any differently towards him at allwhich is what i would assume jesus would do

unless, of course, being judgmental and arrogant about your religion is more important than following said religion...which sadly we know is often the case

Yeah, because he won't have a hard time or be judged for his name by anyone who isn't religious. At least you got your shot in at religious folks.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

"It could put him at odds with a lot of people and at this point he has had no choice in what his name is," Ballew said.

This is a good point, actually. I don't agree with a judge ruling on this though.

it would seem to me that anyone who professes to follow jesus would understand that this child did not choose his name and would not act any differently towards him at all

which is what i would assume jesus would do

unless, of course, being judgmental and arrogant about your religion is more important than following said religion...which sadly we know is often the case

You obviously don't understand religion.. Christian doesn't mean perfect.. And any true Christian will admit to being an imperfect sinner.. That being said, most Christians would dislike the name and feel uncomfortable saying it, but most people in general wouldn't treat a child poorly based on that alone..

Religion would possibly be the excuse used by some who would discriminate based on the name, but I think there would be very few times it was actually an issue.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

which name would be discriminated against more

Mohammed or messiah?

What about naming your child President? You think he'd never have a problem with anybody over that?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

this

Must be an awful lot of people trying to insult the religious out there given the growing popularity of the name. How much you want to bet most people using this name claim to be Christians?

Does that mean all Christians should be ok with it? The same way all Muslims are terrorists right?

 

[NCCommish]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

this

Must be an awful lot of people trying to insult the religious out there given the growing popularity of the name. How much you want to bet most people using this name claim to be Christians?

Does that mean all Christians should be ok with it? The same way all Muslims are terrorists right?

No it means that it probably isn't meant to be insulting and people think it's interesting name. And really until the Dominionists get their way it doesn't really matter what Christians think of it does it? You don't hate freedom do you? Commie.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

1. It shouldn't be.

2. Who gives a ####?

 

[Mister CIA]

I like the part about Jesus earning his title. Congratulations on the promotion, big guy Big Guy.

Also, I'll bet Lu Ann is a wild woman behind closed doors.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Jesus Christ.

 

[cstu]

Maybe this kid really IS the Messiah. God is going to be pissed about a judge changing his name.

 

[Fennis]

I like the part about Jesus earning his title. Congratulations on the promotion, big guy Big Guy.

Also, I'll bet Lu Ann is a wild woman behind closed doors.

sometimes the prudish up-tight ones are prudish and up-tight behind closed doors.

 

[mad sweeney]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

this

Must be an awful lot of people trying to insult the religious out there given the growing popularity of the name. How much you want to bet most people using this name claim to be Christians?

Is Jesus an insult to Christians?

 

[mad sweeney]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

this

Must be an awful lot of people trying to insult the religious out there given the growing popularity of the name. How much you want to bet most people using this name claim to be Christians?

Haven't you heard? Christians are the most persecuted group of people on Earth, probably if all time. It's like they can never catch a break.

 

[cstu]

I like the part about Jesus earning his title. Congratulations on the promotion, big guy Big Guy.

Also, I'll bet Lu Ann is a wild woman behind closed doors.

sometimes the prudish up-tight ones are prudish and up-tight behind closed doors.

From experience?

 

[Sinn Fein]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

this

Must be an awful lot of people trying to insult the religious out there given the growing popularity of the name. How much you want to bet most people using this name claim to be Christians?

Is Jesus an insult to Christians?

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians. Of course a judge has no business changing the name, but it's pretty stupid to do that to your kid all the same.

this

Must be an awful lot of people trying to insult the religious out there given the growing popularity of the name. How much you want to bet most people using this name claim to be Christians?

Is Jesus an insult to Christians?

No, its an insult to ancient greeks. Mere mortals should not be going around saying "Hey, Zeus!"

 

[Geezil]

He's gonna be fired from a lot of jobs I bet, for being late...

 

[bigbottom]

Naming your kid Messiah IS, however, an insult to religious Jews and Christians.

How so?

 

[Fennis]

I like the part about Jesus earning his title. Congratulations on the promotion, big guy Big Guy.

Also, I'll bet Lu Ann is a wild woman behind closed doors.

sometimes the prudish up-tight ones are prudish and up-tight behind closed doors.

From experience?

mostly talking about myself there

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Judge was fine with me naming my kid Messaribs.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

How is messiah any different than the billion variations of Christ names? Maybe they should go with Messiapher?