Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Link?
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The Birther Conspiracy Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
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matuski
Footballguy
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Sam Quentin
Footballguy
Regardless of the actual number, I'm sure defending 18 different legal actions over the course of 2 years is not cheap.
bueno
In a class by himself
Not sure who "you guys are." Are you against having a published procedure for determining eligibility to run for President? How hard could that be?For the record, I don't think this issue helps or hurts Obama, and I think McCain should have produced his birth certificate too.Nor do I think anecdotal evidence from another politician proves anything. we need for this issue to go away, and there is only one way that is going to happen.
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
From any poll I've seen, the "issue" is hurting Obama.
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bueno
In a class by himself
Well, it isn't about whether Obama is a natural born citizen or not to me. 99.99% sure he is. It is about whether we should have a neutral party making that determination and whether that neutral party should have published rules as to what evidence is acceptable and what isn't.Don't know why that makes me unreasonable. It just seems like a logical thing that should be in place.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
1. Birthers keep emerging from the woodwork.2. Fish are biting.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
I'm seeing reports that Obama's decision to fight this in court has shaved $2 billion off the deficit. Also, polls are showing this issue has endeared republican voters to Obama.
matuski
Footballguy
Obama hopes you keep this issue alive for another couple years. Keep up the good fight!
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Except that Obama and Hawaii produced it, but people are still #####ing.
bueno
In a class by himself
The point is that if there were a pre-existing regulation stating that the short form certificate was acceptable as proof of being a natural-born citizen, this issue would never have gotten legs. So instead of the birthers going nuts and the liberals laughing at them why not just fix this little problem? Why is this so hard to do? It can be done by clarifying instructions on a single FEC form. Or having a separate form for POTUS. Problem solved.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
When did we define, definitively, that natural born citizen even means born in this country. Seems to me that if you're born American, then you're a natural born American. Lets' solve that riddle first before tackling the next one.
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
COLB is not proof of Hawaii birth as anybody can apply for that.
Jewell
Footballguy
The Supreme Court has already declined to hear that argument with regard to this situation, but that is the other Birther argument.
Sarnoff
Footballguy
Eight.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Not sure exactly but I'd bet we'd find a 1:1 hillbilly/redneck to birther ratio.
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bueno
In a class by himself
Well be careful. You might come around to my way of thinking. But it is a good question.We have had Presidents who were born in territories before those territories became states. McCain was born in the Canal Zone to two American parents when the Canal zone was technically part of America.What would we do with a presidential candidate born of foreign parents in a US embassy (technically US soil). I just think the ambiguity on what constitutes a natural-born citizen (hopefully we don't have to get into the C-section versus both canal argument because it is ridiculous) and what constitues proof of natural-born citizenship.It seems that enough evidence exists to suggest that Obama is natural-born, but he took advantage of his father's non-citizenship to receive scholarship money as a foreign student (unless that has been clarified). It also seems that maybe, just maybe he had a foreign passport at some time in his early adulthood.Those kinds of things create doubt. A good leader, IMO would clean up that doubt.
bueno
In a class by himself
I'm guessing 3.
the moops
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
Can you flesh this out a bit? Is a Certificate of Live Birth issued by the State of Hawaii insufficient proof of Hawaii birth for purposes other than POTUS?
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I think it's the argument that should be settled first before we worry about public vetting, even though it's already investigated. It's not like they swear someone in because he told them he was an American.
bueno
In a class by himself
They are arguments that have been used in the past that I have not seen addressed. I thought I couched them in substantially less than certain terms in order to show that there was a body of evidence out there to shed doubt in some people's minds. Under those circumstances, I would have gladly released my long form birth certificate if I was him.
the moops
Footballguy
These arguments have been addressed over and over.Obama recieved financial aid as a foreign student? FalseThey are arguments that have been used in the past that I have not seen addressed. I thought I couched them in substantially less than certain terms in order to show that there was a body of evidence out there to shed doubt in some people's minds. Under those circumstances, I would have gladly released my long form birth certificate if I was him.
Obama had a foreign passport? False
Besides being President, who is required to be a natural born citizen?
mad sweeney
Footballguy
What's that got to do with it? What other purposes are a COLB not sufficient for proof of being born in HI?
bigbottom
Footballguy
No one, as far as I'm aware. But that wasn't my question.
randall146
Footballguy
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Thats the reply now?
Hack.Ive read of two of the court proceedings, including the biggest (Oreily Taitz sideshow) costing the defense $500 and $250.
In fact, nobody even has to show up for the defense, they are sending in the basic attorney letters/replies and seeing the cases dismissed.
As if no legal groups would be willing to defend the President free of charge.
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I realize that. But that is what makes your question irrelevant to the issue. You can get a birth certificate from sworn statements from friends and relatives. That is sufficient to get a passport. My grandma had to do this to travel to Europe. But if she wanted to be President, is that conclusive proof? Obama who had a foreign father and a mother who traveled, it raises questions that the COLB does not conclusively answer. Yes, he is recognized as a citizen because of some unrevealed recorded document so he can get a passport and attend school. But does that make him a natural born citizen?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Yes.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
"The Birther Conspiracy thread continues to grow"
bueno
In a class by himself
At the time these arguments were brought up though, there was still doubt that had not been addressed. I did not say they have not been addressed since. Big difference. Had they not been arguments at the time and had Obama released his long form birth certificate, this issue would have never gotten legs. But he didn't and it has. Entirely his fault this matter is still being discussed.I stand by my position that what constitutes proof of a natural born citizen needs to be codified and included as part of the FEC vetting process. Why do you have a problem with that position?These arguments have been addressed over and over.Obama recieved financial aid as a foreign student? FalseThey are arguments that have been used in the past that I have not seen addressed. I thought I couched them in substantially less than certain terms in order to show that there was a body of evidence out there to shed doubt in some people's minds. Under those circumstances, I would have gladly released my long form birth certificate if I was him.
Obama had a foreign passport? False
bigbottom
Footballguy
You assume too much from my question. I was simply asking for Sam to flesh out his statement that:
His statement was not "COLB is not proof of Hawaii birth for purposes of becoming President as anybody can apply for that." It was a categorical statement about a COLB not constituting proof of Hawaii birth. That's why I asked for clarification as to whether the COLB is insufficient proof of Hawaii birth for other purposes. Indeed, it's entirely possible that it is insufficient proof for other purposes, which, again, is why I asked.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
I agree with this 100%. Might as well make it clear. That said, the standard that I think should be ultimately codified would be met by what information has been produced by Obama.
bueno
In a class by himself
That may be. I'll defer to experts on that point.
If a recorded document exists which clarifies the particulars of the location of birth, why would should it be codified it to protect that? If the information flat out did not exist, it is one thing. But we are fairly certain that something was filed at the time Obama was born, we are just not certain what that is. You know, transparency and all that good stuff.
bigbottom
Footballguy
If the code provides that you can present A, B or C as proof of being a natural born citizen, I don't see a need to produce A, if B or C has already been provided.
I don't think we should codify legal protection from the facts. I have yet to hear a convincing argument why A is not being produced.
Apparently, that issue is pretty well settled outside of birther-land.Janice Okubo, a spokesperson for the Hawaiian Department of Health, is quoted here explaining some of the "short form" versus "long form" stuff. (She says that there is no "short form" versus "long form" stuff. But what is being called the "short form" contains all the information needed by all federal government agencies for transactions requiring a birth certificate, and has been recognized by the US Supreme Court as an official birth certificate meeting all federal and other requirements.)
Tiny Dancer
Footballguy
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
Developing...
timschochet
Footballguy
Trump is way too smart for this. Is this whole thing some kind of put on, I wonder?
the moops
Footballguy
He may be referring to thishttp://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol06_ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.HTM
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Can I request a No Snopes link rule for this thread?These arguments have been addressed over and over.Obama recieved financial aid as a foreign student? FalseThey are arguments that have been used in the past that I have not seen addressed. I thought I couched them in substantially less than certain terms in order to show that there was a body of evidence out there to shed doubt in some people's minds. Under those circumstances, I would have gladly released my long form birth certificate if I was him.
Obama had a foreign passport? False
The truth really takes the fun out of this. I mean, if a comedian is up on stage doing a hilarious rant, and everyone is rolling in the aisles laughing at him, you wouldn't stop him in the middle of the routine point out that most white people don't really dance like that, or that data shows that Asians drive as well as the rest of us. You just keep laughing.
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Jayrod
Footballguy
You sure about this?I think of him more like an idiot-savant. Great at some things but really bad at others. I mean just look at his hair for Pete's sake.
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