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The coming population decline and its implications. (1 Viewer)

This far from a US only problem. Japan, in particular has been suffering from this for a very long time. At least 30-40 years now.

They are losing cultural events. Cause there are no younger people to take up the mantle. I’ll try to find an example I read, but it was several months ago, so I might come up empty.

Zeihans book is not cheery.
 
Don't know if it's been said, but the strongest correlation with fertility is education. As women become more educated, they have fewer children. It's not a surprise. And a long way from being a problem.
More education is good, but decreased fertility really is a problem. Sometimes otherwise-good things have negative side effects. In real life, you can't just wish away tradeoffs.

Just to pick one random example -- nothing dramatic like global trade breaking down -- consider Social Security. That program is built on the idea that today's workers pay for current retiree's benefits. (I assume everybody in this thread understands that "your" Social Security contributions were spent years ago and are not being held in some special account for you). Lower fertility means we're not replacing workers as they retire, so the math gets thrown out of whack. We have no choice but to either cut benefits, raise taxes, or run a deficit, or some combination thereof. That sucks, and it is a genuinely difficult problem to solve.
 
I'd ask to the people here who don't have kids and don't kids, if the govt said that:

1. Child care free until kindergarten (you can still opt for private care/nanny obviously) in a state/federal run daycare
2. State Colleges will be free (private schools do their own thing) via Federal Funding

Would you be more/less/same likely to have kids? Forget about how it's paid for.
Would not matter.

When I was a kid, I didn't think about having kids, or coaching soccer, or attending my daughters wedding. I always knew my mind could change, but it never did.
I never believed it was anyone's responsibility to have children, or that starting a family was what one was supposed to do.

One cannot get around the fiscal issue. Who gonna raise this kid? Well, that person isn't working. One salary, two kids, buy a house. What does Dad need to be making? Are they saving for retirement? What about college? Health insurance?

The things most people assume we need to do to make raising families more attractive are not things people want to do. And they will vote them down
 
The impact of educated people waiting till late 30s to have two kids is massive. Daisy chain that and you eliminate three generation families entirely by 2050 for large sectors of the society. Just this alone will hurt in unimaginable ways.
Hurt?

Can you articulate this specifiically?
Watch the first few minutes of Idiocracy. Seriously. You don't have to watch more than five minutes, but you will be exposed to many of the exact same talking points that people are repeating (in earnest, not in jest) in this thread.

Now, does that mean that we're just a few short generations away from watering our crops with sports drinks? Probably not. But the general idea is the same. It's probably not a good thing, on net, for society's educated class to voluntarily stop reproducing itself.
No interest in watching the movie.

When someone has a hottake like hurt unimaginably, I would like to better understand this as I have a significant imagination and thus cannot process.
Having extended family is something that is good. People learn from experiences of their elders. This is done in large part thru multi generation gathering.

I don't think this is super controversial. Here's a basic article/study on this.

 
So, I will try to tread lightly here and try not sound judgmental. I'm not making this a personal attack I just want to probe a bit deeper into this mindset. You and others have expressed this type of attitude which I can only describe as misanthropic. You certainly find very little about Modern Society that you like but seemingly ignore or haven't explored ways to take yourself out of it. I mean if you enjoy heat and being away from people there is a huge swath of the middle of our country where you can live and be far away from crowds of people. Urbanization is not a natural setting for a majority of humans, of that I am convinced, but even people that are really repelled by living there continue on when there even though we have a whole continent we could spread and live in rather than cram ourselves into cities. I am really curious what is it that makes you stay somewhere you feel miserable about?
I moved to a northern suburb of Phoenix.

But I wasnt actually even just talking about living situations. I meant leisure time as well.

We just moved away from colorado. One of the things that was so irritating was how crowded every single hiking spot had become. Places we used to leisurely head to at 9am if we wanted and had no problems finding a spot at the trailhead now required parking in a designated paved area miles away and taking a shuttle. Or they now required a lottery. Or you had to be there at 4 am.
 
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I'd ask to the people here who don't have kids and don't kids, if the govt said that:

1. Child care free until kindergarten (you can still opt for private care/nanny obviously) in a state/federal run daycare
2. State Colleges will be free (private schools do their own thing) via Federal Funding

Would you be more/less/same likely to have kids? Forget about how it's paid for.
I think it would be cheaper if the govt or health care companies covered IVF. There are millions of couples that have trouble having children, but $25K for a chance puts it out of many budgets.
 
So does our massive abortion rate have anything to do with this?
No. Japan has a small abortion rate and they have a bigger problem with replacement rate.
I have no data to back this up, but I imagine unwanted children are not who we want to repopulate our country. I would guess there are terribly high instances of mental health issues, drug abuse, less than stellar educational outcomes, way less lifetime income, etc among these unplanned or unwanted children compared to their counterpart
 
Is the cost issue absolutely real or is part of it perception? Do people think that they need to live a certain way and give their kids specific things and pay for a specific type of education, etc.? Didn’t people just have kids for god knows how long and then just kind of figure out what they could do and just deal with what they couldn’t do? I am sure that there is some level of decreased purchasing power, but the idea that you can’t do x, y or z with kids seems like a little bit of a false impression and if the point is to just have kids and a familial relationship, you CAN do it without a huge amount of money, maybe just not the way that you PERCEIVE it is supposed to be done today:
 
So does our massive abortion rate have anything to do with this?
No. Japan has a small abortion rate and they have a bigger problem with replacement rate.
I have no data to back this up, but I imagine unwanted children are not who we want to repopulate our country. I would guess there are terribly high instances of mental health issues, drug abuse, less than stellar educational outcomes, way less lifetime income, etc among these unplanned or unwanted children compared to their counterpart
They tend to populate our prisons. Which is ideal for some.
 
So does our massive abortion rate have anything to do with this?
Massive rate? We're like ranked 109 out of 150 something. Not at all massive.
Rate as in per capita? Sure I guess, but we are the 3rd largest country in the world.

How about raw numbers. We abort between 500k-1million per year and have for about 50 years. That's 25-50 million fewer people born.

It's not nothing.

ETA: and some multiplier effect as they reach childbearing ages would drive that number even higher.
 
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I have no data to back this up, but I imagine unwanted children are not who we want to repopulate our country. I would guess there are terribly high instances of mental health issues, drug abuse, less than stellar educational outcomes, way less lifetime income, etc among these unplanned or unwanted children compared to their counterpart
They tend to populate our prisons. Which is ideal for some.
So Eugenics then? Got it.
 
Don't know if it's been said, but the strongest correlation with fertility is education. As women become more educated, they have fewer children. It's not a surprise. And a long way from being a problem.
Do you think if we had a mandated 6mo-1year of maternity leave that gauranteed they won;t lose their career if they choose kids they'd have more kids? If we also assisted with childcare costs so women didn't have to choose between being a stay at home mom or have a career?

Where I live if you have 2 kids in daycare you're annual cots are approacching 40k a year, and that's just for child care. That doesn't factor in doctor appointments, food costs, formula etc.

So essentially if you aren't making at least 60-65kk you're better off not working at all.
I don’t think it would matter. And not that would know, but looking at it from the male point of view, pregnancy and childbirth and the wear and tear on the woman’s body doesn’t seem all that great for them. :shrug: taking nothing away from the straight up miracle that it is. but again what do I know?
 
Inflation has been a nation wide issue for 3 years, but it's been a burden on young families for 2-3 decades, which coincides with when birth rates started their downward trend

You've said this a couple of times in here, what is that based on? Until the past 3 years, we have largely had historically low inflation since 1990 and real wages have increased over that same time period, especially over the last decade or so.

Is that just based on childcare, which you did mention? I do think that's probably a big impact, as if you go back a few generations with women largely not in the workforce and more multigenerational living, child care cost just wasn't a thing. Cost of higher education and associated student loan balances have obviously gone way up, but while the percentage of the population with a degree has climbed steadily from just 8% in 1960 to 37.5% now it looks to be flattening out, and that leaves over 62% of the population that isn't impacted by that.

I appreciate the narrative (and the time you put into putting it together!), and it probably rings pretty true for a lot of middle-class people. But in general I'm not sure the data support a lot of it.
I don't know when I'll have the time to give you a researched answer, but put yourself in the shoes of a gen x and think about those 2 items you mentioned - higher ed and childcare. Birth rates had been in decline while the higher ed markets (and housing) heated up, but there's a very clear reason the demo cliff is hitting higher ed next yr- the great recession. Think about how the timing of these events impacted those in each generation.

Gen x navigated inflated higher ed then just when they got the house- Charlie Brown and the football. Your housing price just tanked and who knows about your job, whether you still have it or the promotion you'd been working for disappeared. You don't have a nest egg to fall back on since you spent a disproportionate amount of dollars on education / down payment and now you have those bills ahead? Looks like we're not having kids, or at least less of them.

We claim to covet an educated populace, but these barriers and their timing ran counter to those goals then we didn't do anything about it.
 
Take a trip to Walmart and you will see that the people having the most kids are the ones getting government assistance.
 
Take a trip to Walmart and you will see that the people having the most kids are the ones getting government assistance.
Are you saying that government assistance works and could help increase population rates? Or that kids are really expensive and parents are forced to shop at Walmart? I’d still target IVF support as a better government intervention.
 
Take a trip to Walmart and you will see that the people having the most kids are the ones getting government assistance.
Are you saying that government assistance works and could help increase population rates? Or that kids are really expensive and parents are forced to shop at Walmart? I’d still target IVF support as a better government intervention.
My guess is that he's saying neither of those things, and just noting that lower- and middle-class people are able to afford kids, so maybe upper-middle-class types can afford them as well.

There's a certain segment of our population that is voluntarily choosing not to reproduce itself. It's the segment of the population that graduated from good schools, lives in cities, and reads the NYT. They post about how expensive it is to have kids, and how they might not be able to afford that vacation or home or that boat, and is it even ethical to bring a child into the world with The Way Things Are These Days. Meanwhile, Wal Mart patrons are reproducing more or less as normal.

Again, Idiocracy made fun of this, but the underlying dynamic has only accelerated. (Edit: It is funny, but not really.)
 
Assume population halves. There will certainly be a difficult transition period as the existing population ages. Assuming equilibrium is eventually achieved at the lower total population, that sounds like a positive to me.
it's not
So if half the current total isn't a positive, what is the precise, optimal total population for Earth?
 
Unless you are going to specifically blame one party or the other, I think you would be able to say what you want. I will say that there are lots of reasons for wages for falling and for this discussion one of them was women entering the work force which increased the labor pool and depress wages and also depressed birthrate. We can argue academically on objective facts that happened in the past. My point is people in the past and currently are poorer and in some cases much poorer than modern societies but have higher birthrates. For a society that can control its birthrate through medical and social means maintaining a stable level of population looks like it is going to need a conscious choice by that society.
Then the top of the food chain needs to prioritize paying us plebs instead of saving up for their next super yacht.

Fact is, an average educated mid-20 something with some support and didn't make stupid decisions with their choice of college is looking at ~$30K in debt and a ~$50K job. This is not a cost prior generations were saddled with. The actual number is higher than that, but it's heavily skewed by the coasts where the CoL is significantly higher. So for the sake of this example, let's paint an example elsewhere to demonstrate sacrifice- I chose to live in misc suburb of misc flyover city and still can't afford a family!

But anyway, that mid-20 something isn't going to be able to pay much more than the minimum on their student loan debt, it'll hover over them until they're in their 40's, starting at a rate of about $5K per yr. They also have other expenditures to budget their elders didn't (yes this is a trend). i.e. no, they don't need the latest iphone, but they need a phone (and internet), and off the top of my head I'd very surprised if that can be done for under $2K per yr. These costs aren't needle movers for those of us mid-career, but they add up very quickly for those just starting - probably 15-20% of their pre-tax wages. This only makes it that much more burdensome to save up for the big one- a down payment on a house.

It'd be one thing if it the environment were like pre-covid but the all cash, above asking, inspection waived market that developed then is still alive and well - only now it comes with a 6-7% interest rate. This is not a cost prior generations were saddled with. Yes, I know interest rates were much worse in previous decades, but the annual income : down payment ratio wasn't anything like it is now. So they have to come up with minimum ~$25K for a down payment then be able to afford ~$1700 per month just to get in a house. Assume to this point these now spouses were fiscally responsible starting off- they sought out roommates, spent frugally, and minimized travel. It's still going to be a bear to get by paying less than $10K per yr in rent...each. That's more than 20% of their pre-tax wages and we haven't gotten to transportation (used car + insurance --> $6K per yr?), health care (healthy + ACA --> $5K per yr?), food (if very frugal --> $4K per yr?), and other essentials (utilities / clothes / toiletries / etc - $5K per yr?). Before we even consider the subject of saving, multiple the 2 together and we're at ~$75K in spend with ~$100K of pre-tax income. Tax obviously varies, but I like round numbers, so let's call post tax income $80K. Now, they're could be some corner cutting, especially with transportation (either bike or bus), but doing so limits rental options and increases the tax rate (urban living costs more than rural).

Put all this together and each of them have about $5K per year to put towards savings - whether that's investments, rainy day fund, or down payment for a house. And doesn't consider contingency - stuff breaks, including humans. Now, mid-20 somethings won't be able to invest according to general guidance, but it'd be real stupid not to invest anything, right? $2500 is not enough, but pragmatically, can this couple go any further? Similar story with the rainy day fund- they won't be able to store away 6 months worth of living expenses, but $100-150 per month adds up over time so budget $1250 per yr. That has an expiration date, if it's not needed, but then those dollars need shifted to investments because we're already years behind, so call it a wash. That leaves $1250 per year to save for a house. Put both budgets together and you have $2500. Basic math says they're 10 year out from considering buying a home.

Now, let's assume that happens- economies of scale kick in once you're living together. Some of those costs cool, but they quickly evaporate with maintenance on the house and furnishing it. For simplicity's sake let's call it a wash as well, but now we're building equity! But anyway, we're mid 30's and finally in a house so let's start filling it with small humans before we're beyond at-risk age to make them happen and still be in a position to care for them before we get too old. To pop them out used to cost us near nothing, but that changed rapidly in the 90's / aughts and we've been looking at bills north of $3K over the last couple decades. This is a dynamic that's not unique to just child birth. Inflation has been a nation wide issue for 3 years, but it's been a burden on young families for 2-3 decades, which coincides with when birth rates started their downward trend. There are many...many items to cite, but child care hovers above all. Eval metrics are all over the place, but it's safe to say this has increased at least more than double the inflation rate. And it's far from the only child care related cost that has incurred such a hike. Oh, I have to save for their inflated higher ed so they don't have to repeat what we went through? Oh vey...

I could keep going, but most of those that saw this wall of text but decided to read anyway probably gave up by now. We need more in the trades that require less up front investment, but they also have shorter shelf lives as their bodies break down at a younger age. I also get that what I painted did not capture any spikes in salary, but not everyone is a specialist nor are they a manager / exec. We represent a relatively small piece of the american pie. Are the paths to raising a family limited to the affluent and irresponsible? Sure seems that way. Because the entry point to home ownership is over-burdensome and even if cleared it only gets harder with kids. It was one thing when 'harder' meant responsibilities, but now you have career wives combined with budget crippling expenses and by the time many are in a position to consider having kids they're nearing too old. And looking at our decision makers continuing to pump earnings to the wealthy while the gap widens. They saw opportunities to funnel the dollars up, did, and are bringing back the same old playbook every election cycle with no end in sight.

Are some bypassing children for their own self interests? declining religious affiliation? Of course, but it's a mistake to assume that's the root cause. It's right in front of us.
Thanks a lot for that answer. I have heard in a couple of places that Gen Z has 90% less buying power as the Boomer's generation had at the same age. Telling Gen Z that what the Boomers experienced was an exception in the history of the world provides very little comfort. Especially when the society you live in gives you expectations of what a minimal acceptable level of wealth is. I think you have made a great point that if any of our modern societies are going to turn around a birthrate that society is going to have meet the expectations of Gen Z, and after all this is the generation we as a whole have raised so if changes are going to painful, they are really the older generation's fault.
 
So does our massive abortion rate have anything to do with this?
Massive rate? We're like ranked 109 out of 150 something. Not at all massive.
Rate as in per capita? Sure I guess, but we are the 3rd largest country in the world.

How about raw numbers. We abort between 500k-1million per year and have for about 50 years. That's 25-50 million fewer people born.

It's not nothing.

ETA: and some multiplier effect as they reach childbearing ages would drive that number even higher.
For purposes of the subject here I think abortion can be seen as an extension of other methods of birth control. If a woman has an abortion, it seems pretty straightforward that they would have used contraception if they had a chance to do it over, or did use contraception and it failed.
 

The coming population decline and its implications.​


All one needs do is take a look at Japan really.
But, imho, people started having larger families so that the children would take care of the parents when they got older. Nowadays, adults are not so fearful of needing assistance in their advanced years, so they started having less children. Be this because of financial freedoms, improvements or proliferation of health care facilities where seniors are not thrown out on the streets so to speak to fend for their own.
However, the burden is still there as someone needs to pay taxes to keep the wheels of the establishment running. We will see in the coming years as life expectancy advances, and population starts declining that there will be issues and cracks in the system. Too many people will be dependent on entitlements such as social security and Medicare, and there will not be enough money coming in to fund these programs. It's happening already, but will do so at a geometric rate. I probably will not be around for this to be as massive an issue as it will become, but one or two generations down the road are going to have a problem. Of course no one will care because by that time our national debt will be larger than the global GDP by some 2-3 fold, but I suppose that's another thread altogether.
This is a pretty interesting enough topic indeed.
 
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People really need to read the Zeihan book referenced above. I’m not sure I agree with all of his conclusions. That said, he’s thought about this deeply. His conclusions are not US centric, despite what his critics say. He goes back to draw his conclusions much deeper than last year. At the least, it’s insightful and informed.

ETA: he claims, and it’s tough to dispute, that the decline in birthrate is largely based on industrialization, not govt policy. Here or abroad. Certainly some policies are making this worse, but these tend not to fall along liberal/conservative lines.
It is clear that your form of government has no bearing on this trend.
 
Take a trip to Walmart and you will see that the people having the most kids are the ones getting government assistance.
Are you saying that government assistance works and could help increase population rates? Or that kids are really expensive and parents are forced to shop at Walmart? I’d still target IVF support as a better government intervention.
For some people government assistance promotes having kids for the wrong reasons.
 
Don't know if it's been said, but the strongest correlation with fertility is education. As women become more educated, they have fewer children. It's not a surprise. And a long way from being a problem.
More education is good, but decreased fertility really is a problem. Sometimes otherwise-good things have negative side effects. In real life, you can't just wish away tradeoffs.

Just to pick one random example -- nothing dramatic like global trade breaking down -- consider Social Security. That program is built on the idea that today's workers pay for current retiree's benefits. (I assume everybody in this thread understands that "your" Social Security contributions were spent years ago and are not being held in some special account for you). Lower fertility means we're not replacing workers as they retire, so the math gets thrown out of whack. We have no choice but to either cut benefits, raise taxes, or run a deficit, or some combination thereof. That sucks, and it is a genuinely difficult problem to solve.
I was about to post something similar to this. How do people expect these 1st world promised social/govt. benefits to be funded and distributed with declining birth rates?
 
So does our massive abortion rate have anything to do with this?
Massive rate? We're like ranked 109 out of 150 something. Not at all massive.
Rate as in per capita? Sure I guess, but we are the 3rd largest country in the world.

How about raw numbers. We abort between 500k-1million per year and have for about 50 years. That's 25-50 million fewer people born.

It's not nothing.

ETA: and some multiplier effect as they reach childbearing ages would drive that number even higher.
Unless you are intentionally trying to mislead, per capita is the only thing that matters. Regardless of the totals, the percentages and rates are what is meaningful.

Adding 1 million people to a workforce of 1 billion is nothing. Adding 50 people to a workforce of 100 is a hell of a lot. Without the rate to provide context, the numbers are meaningless.

A country with a population of 500,000 that has 20,000 abortions per year is signifcantly different than a coutnry with 100,000,000 having 40,000.
 
Don't know if it's been said, but the strongest correlation with fertility is education. As women become more educated, they have fewer children. It's not a surprise. And a long way from being a problem.
More education is good, but decreased fertility really is a problem. Sometimes otherwise-good things have negative side effects. In real life, you can't just wish away tradeoffs.

Just to pick one random example -- nothing dramatic like global trade breaking down -- consider Social Security. That program is built on the idea that today's workers pay for current retiree's benefits. (I assume everybody in this thread understands that "your" Social Security contributions were spent years ago and are not being held in some special account for you). Lower fertility means we're not replacing workers as they retire, so the math gets thrown out of whack. We have no choice but to either cut benefits, raise taxes, or run a deficit, or some combination thereof. That sucks, and it is a genuinely difficult problem to solve.
I was about to post something similar to this. How do people expect these 1st world promised social/govt. benefits to be funded and distributed with declining birth rates?
Later retirement age. People living till 90? Great, they can work till 80 years old.
 
Don't know if it's been said, but the strongest correlation with fertility is education. As women become more educated, they have fewer children. It's not a surprise. And a long way from being a problem.
The counterpoint is if a factor of how a society is ordered causes that society to eventually collapse can it be considered good? As a father of two daughters no I don't want their lives to be barefoot and pregnant, but there is a lot of evidence that women are not as fulfilled as men are with a long-term high income high stress career. It seems a mid-level with mid income high stress career is even less fulfilling for women. And I am talking in generalities and broad trends so please don't give some examples of a great woman CEO. It is a proven fact that if you give men and women equal choice of careers, they self-segregate into different careers in overwhelming numbers. This goes down to our basic psychology as a man or a woman. And I will say having a child is obviously a huge gamble, maybe not the right word, for any woman and woman in a modern society clearly are demanding a high level of security to have children because they have access to birth control, and their own source of income. They can better control the terms of their own procreation and lots of factors are telling them that having children is not a good choice.
 
Don't know if it's been said, but the strongest correlation with fertility is education. As women become more educated, they have fewer children. It's not a surprise. And a long way from being a problem.
More education is good, but decreased fertility really is a problem. Sometimes otherwise-good things have negative side effects. In real life, you can't just wish away tradeoffs.

Just to pick one random example -- nothing dramatic like global trade breaking down -- consider Social Security. That program is built on the idea that today's workers pay for current retiree's benefits. (I assume everybody in this thread understands that "your" Social Security contributions were spent years ago and are not being held in some special account for you). Lower fertility means we're not replacing workers as they retire, so the math gets thrown out of whack. We have no choice but to either cut benefits, raise taxes, or run a deficit, or some combination thereof. That sucks, and it is a genuinely difficult problem to solve.
I was about to post something similar to this. How do people expect these 1st world promised social/govt. benefits to be funded and distributed with declining birth rates?
Well about the only option is highly automated supply chains where the cost of production is down to maintenance of machines, material, and electricity to run the machines.
 
The impact of educated people waiting till late 30s to have two kids is massive. Daisy chain that and you eliminate three generation families entirely by 2050 for large sectors of the society. Just this alone will hurt in unimaginable ways.
Hurt?

Can you articulate this specifiically?
Watch the first few minutes of Idiocracy. Seriously. You don't have to watch more than five minutes, but you will be exposed to many of the exact same talking points that people are repeating (in earnest, not in jest) in this thread.

Now, does that mean that we're just a few short generations away from watering our crops with sports drinks? Probably not. But the general idea is the same. It's probably not a good thing, on net, for society's educated class to voluntarily stop reproducing itself.
No interest in watching the movie.

When someone has a hottake like hurt unimaginably, I would like to better understand this as I have a significant imagination and thus cannot process.
Having extended family is something that is good. People learn from experiences of their elders. This is done in large part thru multi generation gathering.

I don't think this is super controversial. Here's a basic article/study on this.

Thank you for sharing the article which I read the first 3 pages. Just to be clear, we saying that "not having an opportunity to learn from your elders" is an example of being "hurt unimaginably"? Here is what I took away:
We found significant positive effects for the BCLT participants regarding their sense of purpose in life, attitudes toward older people, comfort interacting with older people, and interest in working with older people. The subjective assessments of the participants were overwhelmingly positive. The findings indicate that BCLT had positive effects for the youth participants and support the further development and testing of wisdom-sharing intergenerational programs.

If hurt unimaginably is hyperbole, Im OK with it. I just read the phrase as couldn't process.
 
The counterpoint is if a factor of how a society is ordered causes that society to eventually collapse can it be considered good?
Which is a massive assumption.

People shouldn't be taking these theories as facts, if they are going to use them to try and figure out a way to make women want to have babies.
 
So does our massive abortion rate have anything to do with this?
No. Japan has a small abortion rate and they have a bigger problem with replacement rate.
I have no data to back this up, but I imagine unwanted children are not who we want to repopulate our country. I would guess there are terribly high instances of mental health issues, drug abuse, less than stellar educational outcomes, way less lifetime income, etc among these unplanned or unwanted children compared to their counterpart
Freakanomics is an excellent read on this as it discusses banning abortion in Poland and what came after.
 
The counterpoint is if a factor of how a society is ordered causes that society to eventually collapse can it be considered good?
Which is a massive assumption.

People shouldn't be taking these theories as facts, if they are going to use them to try and figure out a way to make women want to have babies.
That predisposes that the population decline is a bad thing, which I am not ready to agree with.
 
Don't know if it's been said, but the strongest correlation with fertility is education. As women become more educated, they have fewer children. It's not a surprise. And a long way from being a problem.
More education is good, but decreased fertility really is a problem. Sometimes otherwise-good things have negative side effects. In real life, you can't just wish away tradeoffs.

Just to pick one random example -- nothing dramatic like global trade breaking down -- consider Social Security. That program is built on the idea that today's workers pay for current retiree's benefits. (I assume everybody in this thread understands that "your" Social Security contributions were spent years ago and are not being held in some special account for you). Lower fertility means we're not replacing workers as they retire, so the math gets thrown out of whack. We have no choice but to either cut benefits, raise taxes, or run a deficit, or some combination thereof. That sucks, and it is a genuinely difficult problem to solve.
I was about to post something similar to this. How do people expect these 1st world promised social/govt. benefits to be funded and distributed with declining birth rates?
Large amounts of immigration. Without we are going to see huge inflation in wages and goods as there will just be a general lack of supply.
 
So does our massive abortion rate have anything to do with this?
Massive rate? We're like ranked 109 out of 150 something. Not at all massive.
Rate as in per capita? Sure I guess, but we are the 3rd largest country in the world.

How about raw numbers. We abort between 500k-1million per year and have for about 50 years. That's 25-50 million fewer people born.

It's not nothing.

ETA: and some multiplier effect as they reach childbearing ages would drive that number even higher.
I doubt it changes the total population. Yes, that's 25-50 million individuals who aren't here today, but those individuals were probably replaced (population-wise) by different individuals born a few years later. In other words, we have a lot of resources available to us to control how many kids we have. People generally know how many they want and that's how many they have.
 
So does our massive abortion rate have anything to do with this?
Massive rate? We're like ranked 109 out of 150 something. Not at all massive.
Rate as in per capita? Sure I guess, but we are the 3rd largest country in the world.

How about raw numbers. We abort between 500k-1million per year and have for about 50 years. That's 25-50 million fewer people born.

It's not nothing.

ETA: and some multiplier effect as they reach childbearing ages would drive that number even higher.
I doubt it changes the total population. Yes, that's 25-50 million individuals who aren't here today, but those individuals were probably replaced (population-wise) by different individuals born a few years later. In other words, we have a lot of resources available to us to control how many kids we have. People generally know how many they want and that's how many they have.
Also, to someone else’s earlier point, those kids may have been prevented via birth control if available, not to mention how many of the abortions may have been due to unviability.

I’m not sure more unwanted children is what our population needs.
 
Don't know if it's been said, but the strongest correlation with fertility is education. As women become more educated, they have fewer children. It's not a surprise. And a long way from being a problem.
More education is good, but decreased fertility really is a problem. Sometimes otherwise-good things have negative side effects. In real life, you can't just wish away tradeoffs.

Just to pick one random example -- nothing dramatic like global trade breaking down -- consider Social Security. That program is built on the idea that today's workers pay for current retiree's benefits. (I assume everybody in this thread understands that "your" Social Security contributions were spent years ago and are not being held in some special account for you). Lower fertility means we're not replacing workers as they retire, so the math gets thrown out of whack. We have no choice but to either cut benefits, raise taxes, or run a deficit, or some combination thereof. That sucks, and it is a genuinely difficult problem to solve.
I was about to post something similar to this. How do people expect these 1st world promised social/govt. benefits to be funded and distributed with declining birth rates?
Later retirement age. People living till 90? Great, they can work till 80 years old.
I'm all for it but there is no political will to raise the retirement age for SS.
 
We will see in the coming years as life expectancy advances, and population starts declining that there will be issues and cracks in the system. Too many people will be dependent on entitlements such as social security and Medicare, and there will not be enough money coming in to fund these programs. It's happening already, but will do so at a geometric rate. I probably will not be around for this to be as massive an issue as it will become, but one or two generations down the road are going to have a problem.
I intentionally stayed away from this subject in my walls of text, but this is not new news for many of us gen xer's / millenials. Especially with regards to the educated. I just don't think there is objective data to cite, or at least I'm unaware of it, as a reason for population decline.

Anecdotally, it absolutely plays a role though. Many in our generation are well aware we will be working a lot more years than our elders, which will require a disproportionate amount of our time when they reach their golden years (right now) as they're living longer than prior generations. They will gobble up most of the dollars during this time, leaving less behind for us. There's merit in the upcoming great wealth transfer, but those that don't benefit from it - then what. Details escape me, but I prepared a research paper in college ~20 years ago that forecasted the SS fund will dry up sometime next decade without intervention, of which there still hasn't been any. Every year the can gets kicked, the future bill yutes have to pay will continue to go up. At this point, we're on our own and I only write that with some hyperbole.

So what can we do to combat all of this? When you're young you have time & energy, but no money. When you're old you have time & money, but no energy. When you're middle aged you have energy & money, but no time. So the decision in the transition from young to middle is be healthier and have less kids. After prioritizing exercise, healthy eating, mental health, etc. the little time left is reserved for caring for your family while allocating as much time (but still not enough) to sustaining friendships. We can't control the number of needy parents, but we can control our own health and the number of needy kids. The objective is to navigate this time period until those fewer kids are less needy and hope we come out the other side on a path to relatively good health as we age, while holding onto as many established relationships as our finite time will allow.

Are the priorities of educated middle-aged and younger generations different than those that came before us? Of course, but high-level I don't think that's a bad thing. In this particular environment we're not on a good path because our decision makers haven't executed with those priorities in mind. I'll stop here before getting too political.
 
Don't know if it's been said, but the strongest correlation with fertility is education. As women become more educated, they have fewer children. It's not a surprise. And a long way from being a problem.
More education is good, but decreased fertility really is a problem. Sometimes otherwise-good things have negative side effects. In real life, you can't just wish away tradeoffs.

Just to pick one random example -- nothing dramatic like global trade breaking down -- consider Social Security. That program is built on the idea that today's workers pay for current retiree's benefits. (I assume everybody in this thread understands that "your" Social Security contributions were spent years ago and are not being held in some special account for you). Lower fertility means we're not replacing workers as they retire, so the math gets thrown out of whack. We have no choice but to either cut benefits, raise taxes, or run a deficit, or some combination thereof. That sucks, and it is a genuinely difficult problem to solve.
I was about to post something similar to this. How do people expect these 1st world promised social/govt. benefits to be funded and distributed with declining birth rates?
Later retirement age. People living till 90? Great, they can work till 80 years old.
I'm all for it but there is no political will to raise the retirement age for SS.
I know, and I don't think there shouldn't be. I ain't trying to take away social security, or make people work till they die.

That, to me, is STILL a better plan than making more people because we want to pay for people who are retired for 30 years.

Trying to figure out ways to get OTHER people to have more babies is, far as I can tell, creepy as ****
 
So does our massive abortion rate have anything to do with this?
Massive rate? We're like ranked 109 out of 150 something. Not at all massive.
Rate as in per capita? Sure I guess, but we are the 3rd largest country in the world.

How about raw numbers. We abort between 500k-1million per year and have for about 50 years. That's 25-50 million fewer people born.

It's not nothing.

ETA: and some multiplier effect as they reach childbearing ages would drive that number even higher.
I doubt it changes the total population. Yes, that's 25-50 million individuals who aren't here today, but those individuals were probably replaced (population-wise) by different individuals born a few years later. In other words, we have a lot of resources available to us to control how many kids we have. People generally know how many they want and that's how many they have.
the replacement rate disagrees with you.
 
Take a trip to Walmart and you will see that the people having the most kids are the ones getting government assistance.
Are you saying that government assistance works and could help increase population rates? Or that kids are really expensive and parents are forced to shop at Walmart? I’d still target IVF support as a better government intervention.
My guess is that he's saying neither of those things, and just noting that lower- and middle-class people are able to afford kids, so maybe upper-middle-class types can afford them as well.

There's a certain segment of our population that is voluntarily choosing not to reproduce itself. It's the segment of the population that graduated from good schools, lives in cities, and reads the NYT. They post about how expensive it is to have kids, and how they might not be able to afford that vacation or home or that boat, and is it even ethical to bring a child into the world with The Way Things Are These Days. Meanwhile, Wal Mart patrons are reproducing more or less as normal.

Again, Idiocracy made fun of this, but the underlying dynamic has only accelerated. (Edit: It is funny, but not really.)
We made a well thought out decision to only have one kid. There were a myriad of reasons. While money was one of them, we could have afforded another kid. We chose for my wife to stop working and could have continued that with the second but she didn’t want to really do that. It boiled down to the fact that we didn’t WANT another one. Again, for a myriad of reasons. Especially after the first was out of diapers.no way were we doing that again.
 
Take a trip to Walmart and you will see that the people having the most kids are the ones getting government assistance.
Are you saying that government assistance works and could help increase population rates? Or that kids are really expensive and parents are forced to shop at Walmart? I’d still target IVF support as a better government intervention.
For some people government assistance promotes having kids for the wrong reasons.
One of the reasons My wife’s friend had a fourth kid was because it upped her monthly take from the govt. husband is a tradesman and she never worked.
 

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