The Curious Case of Eric Bieniemy (1 Viewer)

[ignatiusjreilly]

I think it's possible that EB isn't very good at his job.

He's a RB coach, that's it, its always been it. His role in KC was to agree with Andy Reid.

I've always hated this type of argument. I think it's pretty much been established at this point that NFL teams were right not to give EB a head coaching job, but that doesn't retroactively invalidate everything he accomplished. Andy Reid and Mahomes are two of the best ever at what they do; do you really think they're going to tolerate an incompetent hanger-on at one of the most important roles in the organization?

Same goes for Adam Gase. Sure, he sucked as a HC, but Peyton Manning was not saying, "Eff it, just put whoever you want at OC; I'll be running the offense myself anyway."

These guys were all good at what they did, but for whatever reason it didn't translate to other levels. But that doesn't mean we toss aside their earlier successes. EB won two Super Bowls as an OC; there aren't many other guys who can make the same claim

 

[Bigboy10182000]

But that doesn't mean we toss aside their earlier successes. EB won two Super Bowls as an OC; there aren't many other guys who can make the same claim

Outside of the KC team and NFL personnel along with the Commanders and UCLA. Fans have no clue what kind of HC an assistant will become. The extent of their knowledge is the teams stats. We’ve had enough examples to know that’s ridiculously faulty thinking. Bad coaches can coach on good teams.

 

[-OZ-]

First of all, a reminder that the last time there was a thread on the Rooney Rule, it got moved to the PSF, which is now shut down. So let's make sure we don't get too far off topic.

The only thing I'll say is that anyone who thinks the current hiring process is anything close to a meritocracy, and that fixes handed down from the league office move us away from that platonic ideal, is kidding themselves. Honestly, the league could mandate that teams pick their coaches by throwing darts at a dartboard and we might see better results

This is true.

And while there might be outright discrimination (particularly based on race - as opposed to simply familiarity) happening, it seems that it's more like many owners and/or front office guys simply aren't very good at their jobs which leads them to play it safe and familiar. The market punishes this when they hire retread failures instead of taking a chance on new talent.

That is, again, why it's so gratifying to see someone new being given a chance and succeeding. Risk taking sometimes comes with reward, in other words, and hopefully the dam is breaking so that we don't have to see guys like my favorite snark target Mike McCarthy in the league much longer.

They're only called "retreads" when they fail a second time. You never hear Bill Belichick or Andy Reid referred to as a retreads.

Belichick failed twiced.

He did?

Yeah fired by the Cleveland Browns and New England Patriots.

Okay, he failed with the Patriots. Sure thing.

We can only hope to be as unsuccessful.
Although he did have the pain of being the jets head coach for a brief moment.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

But that doesn't mean we toss aside their earlier successes. EB won two Super Bowls as an OC; there aren't many other guys who can make the same claim

Outside of the KC team and NFL personnel along with the Commanders and UCLA. Fans have no clue what kind of HC an assistant will become. The extent of their knowledge is the teams stats. We’ve had enough examples to know that’s ridiculously faulty thinking. Bad coaches can coach on good teams.

Or ... coaches can be good in certain situations but not in others.

The fact that Reid put so much trust in him suggests to me that he was a good coach in that situation

 

[-jb-]

I think it's possible that EB isn't very good at his job.

He's a RB coach, that's it, its always been it. His role in KC was to agree with Andy Reid.

I’d be AWESOME at this. I should apply.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

But that doesn't mean we toss aside their earlier successes. EB won two Super Bowls as an OC; there aren't many other guys who can make the same claim

Outside of the KC team and NFL personnel along with the Commanders and UCLA. Fans have no clue what kind of HC an assistant will become. The extent of their knowledge is the teams stats. We’ve had enough examples to know that’s ridiculously faulty thinking. Bad coaches can coach on good teams.

Or ... coaches can be good in certain situations but not in others.

The fact that Reid put so much trust in him suggests to me that he was a good coach in that situation

That’s still a maybe. Maybe he was an average RB coach and there wasn’t an upgrade at the time? The same person you suggested trusted him, also let him go.

There was a time when what you’re saying was maybe correct. Enough time and information has been made available now to show he’s just bad at what he does and a horrible communicator.

 

[zed2283]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

 

[Grahamburn]

First of all, a reminder that the last time there was a thread on the Rooney Rule, it got moved to the PSF, which is now shut down. So let's make sure we don't get too far off topic.

The only thing I'll say is that anyone who thinks the current hiring process is anything close to a meritocracy, and that fixes handed down from the league office move us away from that platonic ideal, is kidding themselves. Honestly, the league could mandate that teams pick their coaches by throwing darts at a dartboard and we might see better results

This is true.

And while there might be outright discrimination (particularly based on race - as opposed to simply familiarity) happening, it seems that it's more like many owners and/or front office guys simply aren't very good at their jobs which leads them to play it safe and familiar. The market punishes this when they hire retread failures instead of taking a chance on new talent.

That is, again, why it's so gratifying to see someone new being given a chance and succeeding. Risk taking sometimes comes with reward, in other words, and hopefully the dam is breaking so that we don't have to see guys like my favorite snark target Mike McCarthy in the league much longer.

They're only called "retreads" when they fail a second time. You never hear Bill Belichick or Andy Reid referred to as a retreads.

Belichick failed twiced.

He did?

Yeah fired by the Cleveland Browns and New England Patriots.

Okay, he failed with the Patriots. Sure thing.

Define fail then.

Fail /fāl/ intransitive verb -

1) To prove deficient or lacking; perform ineffectively or inadequately.

2) To be unsuccessful.

3) Nothing representing any part of Bill Belichick's tenure with the New England Patriots.

Other than the fact he was fired for being unsuccessful?

That’s a take.

 

[Grahamburn]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

It’s a very different job.

 

[Chaka]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

It’s a very different job.

Is there another pipeline for head coaching success?

Are there examples of good/great HCs who were not good/great coordinators?

 

[Grahamburn]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

It’s a very different job.

Is there another pipeline for head coaching success?

Are there examples of good/great HCs who were not good/great coordinators?

College head coaches obviously.

But, not many I don’t think that haven’t been a coordinator of some kind first. I don’t think it’s a predictor of success though obviously. Being a great coordinator doesn’t mean you’ll be even a competent head coach.

 

[Chaka]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

It’s a very different job.

Is there another pipeline for head coaching success?

Are there examples of good/great HCs who were not good/great coordinators?

College head coaches obviously.

But, not many I don’t think that haven’t been a coordinator of some kind first. I don’t think it’s a predictor of success though obviously. Being a great coordinator doesn’t mean you’ll be even a competent head coach.

Of course. But I don't think there exists a path to becoming an NFL HC without first being an NFL coordinator. Maybe some rare instances of college HCs or coordinators but no one immediately jumps to mind.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

It’s a very different job.

Is there another pipeline for head coaching success?

Are there examples of good/great HCs who were not good/great coordinators?

Andy Reid was never a coordinator at the NFL level. Nor was John Harbaugh (unless you count special teams).

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

It’s a very different job.

Is there another pipeline for head coaching success?

Are there examples of good/great HCs who were not good/great coordinators?

Andy Reid was never a coordinator at the NFL level. Nor was John Harbaugh (unless you count special teams).

Marv Levy was never anything more that a special teams coordinator before he got his first HC gig.

But yeah, obviously that sort of guy is going to be an outlier. It makes sense to me that you would usually want a HC who knows how to run a competent offense or defense, just for credibility purposes if nothing else. It's one of those "necessary but not nearly sufficient" qualifications.

 

[Chaka]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

It’s a very different job.

Is there another pipeline for head coaching success?

Are there examples of good/great HCs who were not good/great coordinators?

Andy Reid was never a coordinator at the NFL level. Nor was John Harbaugh (unless you count special teams).

You don't count special teams? ETA: I guess I can see that. There aren't many examples from that pipeline, for sure.

Didn't realize Reid made the jump from QB coach to HC.

 

[Boston]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

It’s a very different job.

Is there another pipeline for head coaching success?

Are there examples of good/great HCs who were not good/great coordinators?

Andy Reid was never a coordinator at the NFL level. Nor was John Harbaugh (unless you count special teams).

Joe Judge wasn't one either...

 

[Grahamburn]

Raheem’s first stint with TB he went straight to Head Coach from DB’s.

 

[need2know]

Was he a rb in college? Thought he was a qb. Too lazy to look it up

 

[BLOCKED_PUNT]

Here's a thought. I'm sure that playcalling and the like matters but I've always been of the (wrong?) opinion that it's mostly the talent on the field that matters. I think it's very likely that his success in KC were due to KC being a good team and last years Washington wasn't very good and this year's UCLA team wasn't very good.

I think he likely got propped up by the media when he's average at best.

 

[BLOCKED_PUNT]

I think it's possible that EB isn't very good at his job.

He's a RB coach, that's it, its always been it. His role in KC was to agree with Andy Reid.

I’d be AWESOME at this. I should apply.

let's all pettition Brett Veach to give this man a job

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Was he a rb in college? Thought he was a qb. Too lazy to look it up

Senior Year 1990 Colorado Buffalo go 11-1, finish 3rd in the country

288-1,628 rush yds-17 TDs
1st team All American Running Back
Finished 3rd in the Heisman

Selected 2nd Rd, 39th overall by the San Diego Chargers in 1991

 

[Pip's Invitation]

I think it's stupid the way the media claims coordinators SHOULD and WILL be head coaches. By this point I don't think being a good coordinator has much to do with being a good head coach.

It’s a very different job.

Is there another pipeline for head coaching success?

Are there examples of good/great HCs who were not good/great coordinators?

Andy Reid was never a coordinator at the NFL level. Nor was John Harbaugh (unless you count special teams).

You don't count special teams? ETA: I guess I can see that. There aren't many examples from that pipeline, for sure.

Didn't realize Reid made the jump from QB coach to HC.

Yes. It helped that he was with the Packers, who produced a huge head coaching tree in that era. But he got the job because he came in with a vision for a pass-heavy offense, which wasn’t the norm in the 90s, and laid it out in extensive detail, impressing the hell out of Jeffrey Lurie and Joe Banner.