The Downfall Of Bonds Begins? (1 Viewer)

[cobalt_27]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

Why does everyone care about Ruth's?

Ruth = mythical figure, most famous baseball player everPlayed for Yankees, most famous baseball team ever

First player to hit large numbers of home runs per season

Set HR record that lasted for decades

I get all that. But he doesn't hold the record. So what if Bonds passes him?

Then Ruth gets bumped down to #3 on the list, when he should still be at #2, if it weren't for a roided up cheater. That's all. Nothing more.

 

[Autumn Wind]

Would Bonds be viewed any differently by any of you if he wasn't such an incredible jackass? Let's say he was just as big a cheater but was a great guy, did all sorts of charity work, hung out with fans, etc.

 

[Hammered Finz]

Would Bonds be viewed any differently by any of you if he wasn't such an incredible jackass? Let's say he was just as big a cheater but was a great guy, did all sorts of charity work, hung out with fans, etc.

oh, you mean if he were Mark McGuire.

 

[Jackstraw]

this still cracks me up. It was no secret Bonds was juiced the last 4-5 years, everyone knew and anyone that didn't was willfully ignorant. He was loved for his power and he was a one man "shock and awe" campaign. The press ate him up, and he won multiple MVP's, all with the blessings of the fans, the media and Major League Baseball.

Now he's a bad man. LOL. He's the same cheating dude he always was. Seems like fans have amnesia here and now Barry's the scapegoat. They should scrap every record set in the Majors the last 6 years. But to all of a sudden pretend like this is a shock and Barry is the worst man alive because he cheated is even worse IMO.

For the record I've hated Bonds since he couldn't hose down Slow as molasses Sid Bream from second on a sharp hit ball to left in the NLCS.

 

[cobalt_27]

Would Bonds be viewed any differently by any of you if he wasn't such an incredible jackass? Let's say he was just as big a cheater but was a great guy, did all sorts of charity work, hung out with fans, etc.

oh, you mean if he were Mark McGuire.

Exactly. And, look at Big Mac now. He is a total nobody and in seclusion, totally shamed by his roid use and performance in front of Congress. It's different...I don't think there's as much a hatred for him because he's not the jackass that Bonds is. But, nobody wants anything to do with him now.

 

[The Jerminator]

Would Bonds be viewed any differently by any of you if he wasn't such an incredible jackass? Let's say he was just as big a cheater but was a great guy, did all sorts of charity work, hung out with fans, etc.

oh, you mean if he were Mark McGuire.

McGwire was a jackass too, most of his public persona (charity, appearances, etc.) was a facade. They are both cheaters, liars and jerks. Good ballplayers though, especially Bonds...

 

[JuniorNB]

Would Bonds be viewed any differently by any of you if he wasn't such an incredible jackass? Let's say he was just as big a cheater but was a great guy, did all sorts of charity work, hung out with fans, etc.

That's a good question.I think the hatred for Bonds is a combination of his dispicible personality and the fact that he's going to break such a hollowed record.

People hate the thought of a cheater breaking one of the most respected records in all of sports, but it's compounded by the fact that Bonds is so easy to dislike to begin with.

 

[thesurfshop19]

If we all did our homework, we wouldn't need to pretend things didn't happen or put asterisks.  If we weren't so obsessed with records (I saw on SportsCenter the other day that they had a "record" for most consecutive NBA games with 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists ), this wouldn't be as big of a deal.

This is all very true. And, I've never been in support for the asterisk or the wiping clean the record books or anything like that. If Bonds breaks the record, then he breaks the record, and Hank Aaron moves down to #2 on the list.It's just a shame that such a great man and such a great player will be reduced to second place by an ingrate who needed illegal chemistry to be the new home run king.

I agree here. I wonder, if we weren't so record-focused would Bonds (or Big Mac, etc.) have even found it necessary to roid up in the first place?I'm not excusing Bonds's reprehensible choices here in any way, but why else would he have done that? He was already one of the top 3 players in baseball.

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

I hope the pitchers of MLB are doing a little bit of self-policing of the integrity of baseball by giving Bonds NOTHING to hit.

That would be sweet revenge.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I hope the pitchers of MLB are doing a little bit of self-policing of the integrity of baseball by giving Bonds NOTHING to hit.

That would be sweet revenge.

You mean all of baseballs best pitchers who are mostly in their late thirties or even fourties?

 

[dickey moe]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

Why does everyone care about Ruth's?

Ruth = mythical figure, most famous baseball player everPlayed for Yankees, most famous baseball team ever

First player to hit large numbers of home runs per season

Set HR record that lasted for decades

I get all that. But he doesn't hold the record. So what if Bonds passes him?

Then Ruth gets bumped down to #3 on the list, when he should still be at #2, if it weren't for a roided up cheater. That's all. Nothing more.

There's something special and sacred about the Ruth/Aaron connection, because their accomplishments were based on natural skill. Throw Bonds's steroid-induced "achievements" into the mix, and the whole equation gets ####ed up.

 

[cobalt_27]

If we all did our homework, we wouldn't need to pretend things didn't happen or put asterisks. If we weren't so obsessed with records (I saw on SportsCenter the other day that they had a "record" for most consecutive NBA games with 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists ), this wouldn't be as big of a deal.

This is all very true. And, I've never been in support for the asterisk or the wiping clean the record books or anything like that. If Bonds breaks the record, then he breaks the record, and Hank Aaron moves down to #2 on the list.It's just a shame that such a great man and such a great player will be reduced to second place by an ingrate who needed illegal chemistry to be the new home run king.

I agree here. I wonder, if we weren't so record-focused would Bonds (or Big Mac, etc.) have even found it necessary to roid up in the first place?I'm not excusing Bonds's reprehensible choices here in any way, but why else would he have done that? He was already one of the top 3 players in baseball.

And, now he's a disgraced sham and a farce. Already had a terrific legacy as a ballplayer building, and all anyone could say bad about him was that he was a jerk. But, now it's (1) cheat, (2) great ballplayer, (3) jerk.In that order.

 

[shuke]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

Why does everyone care about Ruth's?

Ruth = mythical figure, most famous baseball player everPlayed for Yankees, most famous baseball team ever

First player to hit large numbers of home runs per season

Set HR record that lasted for decades

I get all that. But he doesn't hold the record. So what if Bonds passes him?

Then Ruth gets bumped down to #3 on the list, when he should still be at #2, if it weren't for a roided up cheater. That's all. Nothing more.

There's something special and sacred about the Ruth/Aaron connection, because their accomplishments were based on natural skill. Throw Bonds's steroid-induced "achievements" into the mix, and the whole equation gets ####ed up.

So why didn't anyone care when Bonds passed Robinson and Mays?

 

[bagger.]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

Why does everyone care about Ruth's?

Ruth = mythical figure, most famous baseball player everPlayed for Yankees, most famous baseball team ever

First player to hit large numbers of home runs per season

Set HR record that lasted for decades

I get all that. But he doesn't hold the record. So what if Bonds passes him?

i guess from my perspective that as great as ruth was (even though he is no longer the record holder) it would suck to see ruth move down to 3 to someone like bonds.

 

[bagger.]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

Why does everyone care about Ruth's?

Ruth = mythical figure, most famous baseball player everPlayed for Yankees, most famous baseball team ever

First player to hit large numbers of home runs per season

Set HR record that lasted for decades

I get all that. But he doesn't hold the record. So what if Bonds passes him?

Then Ruth gets bumped down to #3 on the list, when he should still be at #2, if it weren't for a roided up cheater. That's all. Nothing more.

There's something special and sacred about the Ruth/Aaron connection, because their accomplishments were based on natural skill. Throw Bonds's steroid-induced "achievements" into the mix, and the whole equation gets ####ed up.

So why didn't anyone care when Bonds passed Robinson and Mays?

robinson and mays were never the home run title holder.this can't be this difficult.

 

[Reaper]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

That's the biggest thing. Second on the list is whether he should be allowed in the hall of fame, but it's just not right for him to set such an important record by cheating.

Who ELSE cheated?Baseball always has been and always will be a Sport of "Asterisks" Opinions and discussion. Talk and "explanations" that all differ depending on your point of view...

We don't know who took steroids - A LOT of players took steroids - Pitchers took steroids... You can't take away Bonds records without knowing EXACTLY who did what when and where.... AND - It wasn't against MLB rules....

Baseball brought the fences in a ton since Aaron and Ruth - are we going to asterisk that point as well? They messed with the pitching mound a bunch, let's factor that in too...

The Yankees spend more money than everyone else - Lets demonize them too, make it so, even though they didn't set the rules, that every positive thing they do we'll say wasn't fair... The Sox too, they spend more than everyone else... Wahhhhhhh.

MLB made its own bed.... It is and has been a Very Poorly run organization..

If I'm the commish I say - It wasn't against the rules - NOW, it IS... Play on. Like everything else in baseball, we can all discuss for the rest of our lives how We think steroids effected the record book but, it is what it is and no one will forget Ruth and Aaron and I'm sure many people will still recognize their records over Bonds - Good for them, just like the people who think the Yankees or Red Sox accomplishments are any less than another teams.. good for them... It's a sport that leaves a lot up to opinions.....

 

[cobalt_27]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

That's the biggest thing. Second on the list is whether he should be allowed in the hall of fame, but it's just not right for him to set such an important record by cheating.

Who ELSE cheated?Baseball always has been and always will be a Sport of "Asterisks" Opinions and discussion. Talk and "explanations" that all differ depending on your point of view...

We don't know who took steroids - A LOT of players took steroids - Pitchers took steroids... You can't take away Bonds records without knowing EXACTLY who did what when and where.... AND - It wasn't against MLB rules....

Baseball brought the fences in a ton since Aaron and Ruth - are we going to asterisk that point as well? They messed with the pitching mound a bunch, let's factor that in too...

The Yankees spend more money than everyone else - Lets demonize them too, make it so, even though they didn't set the rules, that every positive thing they do we'll say wasn't fair... The Sox too, they spend more than everyone else... Wahhhhhhh.

MLB made its own bed.... It is and has been a Very Poorly run organization..

If I'm the commish I say - It wasn't against the rules - NOW, it IS... Play on. Like everything else in baseball, we can all discuss for the rest of our lives how We think steroids effected the record book but, it is what it is and no one will forget Ruth and Aaron and I'm sure many people will still recognize their records over Bonds - Good for them, just like the people who think the Yankees or Red Sox accomplishments are any less than another teams.. good for them... It's a sport that leaves a lot up to opinions.....

I agree with all of this. See, I think it's assumed that those, like myself, who utterly despise everything about Bonds, want his records to not count. But, you just can't do that. What he has done, by whatever means he did them, are part of the baseball record books. You can't undo any of it by washing the numbers away or attaching asterisks to everything.

But, I think what Bonds has effectively done is minimize his accomplishments to the point that whenever the record books report his home runs, his batting title, and all that, folks will all understand he cheated to obtain those accolades. That's fine with me.

And, if he perjured himself, I'm sure he'll get his appropriate day in court (and in the slammer).

 

[Reaper]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

That's the biggest thing. Second on the list is whether he should be allowed in the hall of fame, but it's just not right for him to set such an important record by cheating.

Who ELSE cheated?Baseball always has been and always will be a Sport of "Asterisks" Opinions and discussion. Talk and "explanations" that all differ depending on your point of view...

We don't know who took steroids - A LOT of players took steroids - Pitchers took steroids... You can't take away Bonds records without knowing EXACTLY who did what when and where.... AND - It wasn't against MLB rules....

Baseball brought the fences in a ton since Aaron and Ruth - are we going to asterisk that point as well? They messed with the pitching mound a bunch, let's factor that in too...

The Yankees spend more money than everyone else - Lets demonize them too, make it so, even though they didn't set the rules, that every positive thing they do we'll say wasn't fair... The Sox too, they spend more than everyone else... Wahhhhhhh.

MLB made its own bed.... It is and has been a Very Poorly run organization..

If I'm the commish I say - It wasn't against the rules - NOW, it IS... Play on. Like everything else in baseball, we can all discuss for the rest of our lives how We think steroids effected the record book but, it is what it is and no one will forget Ruth and Aaron and I'm sure many people will still recognize their records over Bonds - Good for them, just like the people who think the Yankees or Red Sox accomplishments are any less than another teams.. good for them... It's a sport that leaves a lot up to opinions.....

I agree with all of this. See, I think it's assumed that those, like myself, who utterly despise everything about Bonds, want his records to not count. But, you just can't do that. What he has done, by whatever means he did them, are part of the baseball record books. You can't undo any of it by washing the numbers away or attaching asterisks to everything.

But, I think what Bonds has effectively done is minimize his accomplishments to the point that whenever the record books report his home runs, his batting title, and all that, folks will all understand he cheated to obtain those accolades. That's fine with me.

And, if he perjured himself, I'm sure he'll get his appropriate day in court (and in the slammer).

YUP - What Bonds has done in his career has been done under the nose of MLB, they can't go back now and start tearing stuff up when it was their fault all along...A report this morning said 52% Of those who tested positive for steroids were pitchers... So, it's even...

The records stand - As of NOW Steroids are against MLB policy - They should enforce the rules, always look for better testing and PLAY BALL.....

This issue is WAY bigger than it ever should have been and once again it's the commissioner of Baseballs fault - he should have come out with a statement like I made long ago and stoped this BS in it's tracks... And install a freaking Salary Cap - or at least force the bottom teams to spend some of that money they get from the richer teams....

 

[igbomb]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

Why does everyone care about Ruth's?

Ruth = mythical figure, most famous baseball player everPlayed for Yankees, most famous baseball team ever

First player to hit large numbers of home runs per season

Set HR record that lasted for decades

White.

That's just silly and ignorant.Ruth is revered because he is the greatest ballplayer ever. He put up numbers that were so far ahead of everyone else in his day, that it's almost unbelievable. At the peak of the sport, he dominated it like no man then or since. His record of 714 home runs stood for nearly 50 years, which is even more impressive considering that homeruns are more frequent now than then. This isn't Wilt scoring bunches of points when teams scored 150 a game and brought down twice as many rebounds. This is a guy that hit more homeruns than entire teams. Add in the fact that he was a dominating pitcher and was as jovial as he was, and his place in baseball will never change.

So don't try to pull the race card, that's weak.

 

[jafo]

LINK

Bonds' trainer receives subpoena.

SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Greg Anderson, Barry Bonds' personal trainer, has been subpoenaed to testify before a federal grand jury investigating whether the Giants slugger committed perjury, the San Jose Mercury News reported Tuesday.

A spokeswoman for Anderson's attorney, J. Tony Serra, confirmed that the BALCO co-conspirator had received a subpoena.

The news comes as Bonds inched closer to the all-time home run record.

Bonds hit his second home run of the season and first at home Tuesday night, sending a 1-1 pitch from Mets starter Steve Trachsel into the left-field seats for the 710th of his career.

The 41-year-old Bonds, nursing a tender surgically repaired right knee and a swollen left elbow, grimaced noticeably as he limped around the bases after his shot to start the second inning--arriving at home plate to chants of "Barry! Barry!"

Bonds is five homers from passing Babe Ruth for second on the career list and 46 away from breaking Hank Aaron's mark of 755.

Bonds, who has said in recent days his knee is hurting him, struck out on four pitches in the fourth.

Bonds told a grand jury in 2003 that he never knowingly took performance-enhancing drugs, according to a copy of his statement leaked to the San Francisco Chronicle.

But the recent book "Game of Shadows" alleges that Anderson supplied Bonds with steroids on multiple occasions, so his testimony could be crucial to the government's perjury case. If the book's account is true, Anderson--who has never spoken publicly about his relationship with Bonds--might have to decide whether to incriminate his friend or face a contempt-of-court charge and further jail time.

Meanwhile, baseball investigators have started interviews in the steroids investigation headed by former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell.

"We've begun the process," Mitchell said Tuesday. "Lawyers and investigators are in the process of conducting interviews. We'll follow the evidence wherever it leads."

 

[cstu]

As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..

Why does everyone care about Ruth's?

Ruth = mythical figure, most famous baseball player everPlayed for Yankees, most famous baseball team ever

First player to hit large numbers of home runs per season

Set HR record that lasted for decades

White.

That's just silly and ignorant.Ruth is revered because he is the greatest ballplayer ever. He put up numbers that were so far ahead of everyone else in his day, that it's almost unbelievable. At the peak of the sport, he dominated it like no man then or since. His record of 714 home runs stood for nearly 50 years, which is even more impressive considering that homeruns are more frequent now than then. This isn't Wilt scoring bunches of points when teams scored 150 a game and brought down twice as many rebounds. This is a guy that hit more homeruns than entire teams. Add in the fact that he was a dominating pitcher and was as jovial as he was, and his place in baseball will never change.

So don't try to pull the race card, that's weak.

Yeah, I guess you're right - I mean it's not like Hank received death threats calling him a ###### on a daily basis as he approached the record.

 

[BlueOnion]

I still suprised people drink the Ruth Kool-aid.

 

[kbreaker]

To me it comes down to them trying to name a big time player as the escape goat for the mess that Bud Selig and the owners let happen. Why Bonds he has not been the best friend of reporters so he gets a bad rap by the fans. I would like to think that his color of his skin does not take part, but do you really think that Mark McGuire would be gettting treatment?

Is that like a getaway car?

 

[bakes]

To me it comes down to them trying to name a big time player as the escape goat for the mess that Bud Selig and the owners let happen. Why Bonds he has not been the best friend of reporters so he gets a bad rap by the fans. I would like to think that his color of his skin does not take part, but do you really think that Mark McGuire would be gettting treatment?

Is that like a getaway car?

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

Why does everyone forget the Bonds was Baseball's best hitter before the steroid ere? Lets face it most of the baseball players took steroid or drugs that enhanced their abilities. Why does Roger Clemons get a free pass? Can you say that he has not took any thing? Pitchers were on the juice just like the hitters it was part of the game. Just like in the NFL the 70's was its Steroid era. Nobody holds the Steelers back for all the usuage that the team had. To me it comes down to them trying to name a big time player as the escape goat for the mess that Bud Selig and the owners let happen. Why Bonds he has not been the best friend of reporters so he gets a bad rap by the fans. I would like to think that his color of his skin does not take part, but do you really think that Mark McGuire would be gettting treatment? To me Bonds has not faild a test since they started testing. And as far as the books the information in it was obtainted illegal, but that seems to be ok with everyone?

Forget the steriods for a moment.........Bonds would still be treated like he is because he's one of the biggest tools to play the game. HIS antics have brought this on and he can't figure that out. I hope some day that Jeff Kent and others write a tell-all book on what a complete doosh Bonds is.

 

[JuniorNB]

Why does everyone forget the Bonds was Baseball's best hitter before the steroid ere? Lets face it most of the baseball players took steroid or drugs that enhanced their abilities. Why does Roger Clemons get a free pass? Can you say that he has not took any thing? Pitchers were on the juice just like the hitters it was part of the game. Just like in the NFL the 70's was its Steroid era. Nobody holds the Steelers back for all the usuage that the team had. To me it comes down to them trying to name a big time player as the escape goat for the mess that Bud Selig and the owners let happen. Why Bonds he has not been the best friend of reporters so he gets a bad rap by the fans. I would like to think that his color of his skin does not take part, but do you really think that Mark McGuire would be gettting treatment? To me Bonds has not faild a test since they started testing. And as far as the books the information in it was obtainted illegal, but that seems to be ok with everyone?

Forget the steriods for a moment.........Bonds would still be treated like he is because he's one of the biggest tools to play the game. HIS antics have brought this on and he can't figure that out. I hope some day that Jeff Kent and others write a tell-all book on what a complete doosh Bonds is.

Thank goodness for ARod. Bonds reign as the "Home Run King" ( :X ) will be a short one. Probably around 7 or 8 years.

 

[SofaKings]

Why does everyone forget the Bonds was Baseball's best hitter before the steroid ere? Lets face it most of the baseball players took steroid or drugs that enhanced their abilities. Why does Roger Clemons get a free pass? Can you say that he has not took any thing? Pitchers were on the juice just like the hitters it was part of the game. Just like in the NFL the 70's was its Steroid era. Nobody holds the Steelers back for all the usuage that the team had. To me it comes down to them trying to name a big time player as the escape goat for the mess that Bud Selig and the owners let happen. Why Bonds he has not been the best friend of reporters so he gets a bad rap by the fans. I would like to think that his color of his skin does not take part, but do you really think that Mark McGuire would be gettting treatment? To me Bonds has not faild a test since they started testing. And as far as the books the information in it was obtainted illegal, but that seems to be ok with everyone?

Forget the steriods for a moment.........Bonds would still be treated like he is because he's one of the biggest tools to play the game. HIS antics have brought this on and he can't figure that out. I hope some day that Jeff Kent and others write a tell-all book on what a complete doosh Bonds is.

Thank goodness for ARod. Bonds reign as the "Home Run King" ( :X ) will be a short one. Probably around 7 or 8 years.

One can only hope. It will be much easier to root for him if he leaves the Yanks though. Screw Bonds and his recliner at his locker.

 

[El Floppo]

Link to where steroids help you hit a baseball.

 

[Commish77]

Link to where steroids help you hit a baseball.

They don't. They only increase your strength, which increases the speed of the ball off the bat which translates to more base hits through the infield. The added strength also can increase distance which ultimately translates to more fly balls turning into more home runs.And oh yeah, they also help with cutting down a players healing time when they are injured.So yeah, I see you working here.

 

[redman]

Link to where steroids help you hit a baseball.

Elevated testosterone and HGH are said to improve focus and even eyesight. I don't have a link, but that's the short answer. People think that steroids = strength, but that's a gross oversimplification of the issue.

 

[glvsav37]

Link to where steroids help you hit a baseball further.

fixedi think thats the issue with a "home run" record

 

[JuniorNB]

Link to where steroids help you hit a baseball.

For that answer, just look at baseball's all-time single season home run records. Something like 11 of baseball's all-time best HR seasons occured between 1997-2002. Think the fact fact that those are the years that Canseco claimed that the majors was overrun with steroids has anything to do with that little statistic?Bonds could always hit. Steroids didn't do that for him. They just turned him from a 35 HR/year guy to baseball's all-time home run king.And from a 195 pounder to a 240 pound musclehead.

 

[saintsfan]

Link to where steroids help you hit a baseball.

First, it doesn't help hand to eye coordination, but it probably helps bat speed which could result in balls going over the fence where before they would have been warning track balls.Second, the steroids allowed to him recover faster from injury, which is impossible in your late 30's and early 40's. Usually, it is right around that time your body begins to break down on you. In other words, Bonds increased the length of time that he could play at a high level, therefore, able to put up more numbers.Personally, I don't see how you could make this argument. People in their mid-late 30's don't all of a sudden start hitting home runs at historical levels when they had never done so before. If steroids doesn't account for the fact that earlier in his career, he was not a historically spectacular home run hitter, and all of a sudden in his mid 30's he was able to hit 73, what accounts for the difference?

 

[El Floppo]

Some good points raised against my point... and I never asked whether they could help you hit the ball further, just hit it at all.

No- I never knew steroids helped your hand-eye coordination. Is that true?

I can see it helping Bonds et al numbers by hitting the ball harder- clearing the fence on a warning-track shot or going through the infield where it would normally get picked up.

But aren't the balls themselves also recently juiced? Not to speak of the pitchers' arms? Shall we add those asterisks to the conversation against Bonds?

Bonds is a grade A richard, no doubt. But he's also arguably the best baseball player of our generation, steroids or no. I just find it tiresome to hear the ranting against him without people mentioning just how good he is.

 

[JuniorNB]

Link to where steroids help you hit a baseball.

Personally, I don't see how you could make this argument. People in their mid-late 30's don't all of a sudden start hitting home runs at historical levels when they had never done so before. If steroids doesn't account for the fact that earlier in his career, he was not a historically spectacular home run hitter, and all of a sudden in his mid 30's he was able to hit 73, what accounts for the difference?

I agree. These guys who insist on being Bonds supporters would be much better off going with teh fact that baseball buried its head in the sand when this started going on. The McGwire/Sosa HR battle was bringing fans back after the strike and baseball execs loved it.So, blame baseball, Selig, or the players' union, but don't sit there and pretend that steroids had nothing to do with transfering Bonds from an all-around great player with decent power to a guy on the verge of being the game's all-time home run record-holder. It just makes you sound naive.

 

[shining path]

Link to where steroids help you hit a baseball.

Elevated testosterone and HGH are said to improve focus and even eyesight. I don't have a link, but that's the short answer. People think that steroids = strength, but that's a gross oversimplification of the issue.

It's more than just muscle mass. These kinds of steroids effect multiple systems (not sure about eyesight, though).

 

[eoMMan]

To me it comes down to them trying to name a big time player as the escape goat for the mess that Bud Selig and the owners let happen. Why Bonds he has not been the best friend of reporters so he gets a bad rap by the fans. I would like to think that his color of his skin does not take part, but do you really think that Mark McGuire would be gettting treatment?

Is that like a getaway car?

Please don't bump a thread over a year old with "Breaking News" in the title. Thanks.MODS: Please move this thread to it's proper place. Thanks.

 

[El Floppo]

Link to where steroids help you hit a baseball.

Personally, I don't see how you could make this argument. People in their mid-late 30's don't all of a sudden start hitting home runs at historical levels when they had never done so before. If steroids doesn't account for the fact that earlier in his career, he was not a historically spectacular home run hitter, and all of a sudden in his mid 30's he was able to hit 73, what accounts for the difference?

I agree. These guys who insist on being Bonds supporters would be much better off going with teh fact that baseball buried its head in the sand when this started going on. The McGwire/Sosa HR battle was bringing fans back after the strike and baseball execs loved it.So, blame baseball, Selig, or the players' union, but don't sit there and pretend that steroids had nothing to do with transfering Bonds from an all-around great player with decent power to a guy on the verge of being the game's all-time home run record-holder. It just makes you sound naive.

Ummm... you guys are making the argument and jumping to your own conclusions about what I wrote. Of course Steroids made Bonds and the rest of them into massive HR hitters. As did juicing the ball. As did bringing in the fences. I never said otherwise. On the flip-side, pitchers and fielders are also using, so the ball's coming in faster and the fielders are getting there faster... just saying. If steroids were this athletic, and specifically baseball athletic, panacea then why aren't we seeing people hitting .450?

 

[redman]

I did a quick google search for HGH and eyesight, and found this article; there are others:

Real improvement began, however, when one of his neurologists, at my suggestion, agreed to put David on growth hormone. He was eventually taking much larger doses than would be used to used to only correct age-related, adult growth hormone deficiency, at a cost of two thousand dollars a month. His blood levels of IGF-1 tripled. And his improvement was startling. His eyesight and coordination greatly improved. He had far less fatigue and greater endurance for physical activity. He could walk reasonably well for short distances and was no longer bedbound. He was still leading a very careful lifestyle, and, if he began to overdo things, he suffered a partial relapse, but, by and large, he was a far more functional person than he had been before the start of growth hormone therapy, and this improvement has now continued for more than a year.

* * *

And there was one other change Meg hadn't expected. She had the beginning of a cataract in her right eye. The progression of the condition not only halted, but in Ruth's opinion her eyesight improved. Assuming that it was human growth hormone that produced this effect, Ruth is not the only person to notice eye improvement after HGH replacement therapy. Dr. Julian Whitaker, a well-known physician and medical writer, reports that his own eyesight improved to such an extent after he began HGH that he seldom needs his glasses anymore. There has been speculation that HGH strengthens eye muscle fibers, contributing to focus and lessening eyestrain.

 

[saintsfan]

Some good points raised against my point... and I never asked whether they could help you hit the ball further, just hit it at all.No- I never knew steroids helped your hand-eye coordination. Is that true?I can see it helping Bonds et al numbers by hitting the ball harder- clearing the fence on a warning-track shot or going through the infield where it would normally get picked up.But aren't the balls themselves also recently juiced? Not to speak of the pitchers' arms? Shall we add those asterisks to the conversation against Bonds?Bonds is a grade A richard, no doubt. But he's also arguably the best baseball player of our generation, steroids or no. I just find it tiresome to hear the ranting against him without people mentioning just how good he is.

Oh, he's a great player. Probably the best of his generation before the steroids. He was a virtual lock for the hall before 1999, no doubt.

 

[JuniorNB]

I did a quick google search for HGH and eyesight, and found this article; there are others:

Real improvement began, however, when one of his neurologists, at my suggestion, agreed to put David on growth hormone. He was eventually taking much larger doses than would be used to used to only correct age-related, adult growth hormone deficiency, at a cost of two thousand dollars a month. His blood levels of IGF-1 tripled. And his improvement was startling. His eyesight and coordination greatly improved. He had far less fatigue and greater endurance for physical activity. He could walk reasonably well for short distances and was no longer bedbound. He was still leading a very careful lifestyle, and, if he began to overdo things, he suffered a partial relapse, but, by and large, he was a far more functional person than he had been before the start of growth hormone therapy, and this improvement has now continued for more than a year.

* * *

And there was one other change Meg hadn't expected. She had the beginning of a cataract in her right eye. The progression of the condition not only halted, but in Ruth's opinion her eyesight improved. Assuming that it was human growth hormone that produced this effect, Ruth is not the only person to notice eye improvement after HGH replacement therapy. Dr. Julian Whitaker, a well-known physician and medical writer, reports that his own eyesight improved to such an extent after he began HGH that he seldom needs his glasses anymore. There has been speculation that HGH strengthens eye muscle fibers, contributing to focus and lessening eyestrain.

And the greatest advantage of HGH is that, not only is it against baseball's rules to test for it, it is not yet possibly, scientifically, to accurately test for it. Hmmmm.That could be why guys like Pudge Rodriguez shrank after baseball implemented steroid testing , and other guys seem to be as big as ever.

 

[El Floppo]

I did a quick google search for HGH and eyesight, and found this article; there are others:

Real improvement began, however, when one of his neurologists, at my suggestion, agreed to put David on growth hormone. He was eventually taking much larger doses than would be used to used to only correct age-related, adult growth hormone deficiency, at a cost of two thousand dollars a month. His blood levels of IGF-1 tripled. And his improvement was startling. His eyesight and coordination greatly improved. He had far less fatigue and greater endurance for physical activity. He could walk reasonably well for short distances and was no longer bedbound. He was still leading a very careful lifestyle, and, if he began to overdo things, he suffered a partial relapse, but, by and large, he was a far more functional person than he had been before the start of growth hormone therapy, and this improvement has now continued for more than a year.

* * *

And there was one other change Meg hadn't expected. She had the beginning of a cataract in her right eye. The progression of the condition not only halted, but in Ruth's opinion her eyesight improved. Assuming that it was human growth hormone that produced this effect, Ruth is not the only person to notice eye improvement after HGH replacement therapy. Dr. Julian Whitaker, a well-known physician and medical writer, reports that his own eyesight improved to such an extent after he began HGH that he seldom needs his glasses anymore. There has been speculation that HGH strengthens eye muscle fibers, contributing to focus and lessening eyestrain.

And the greatest advantage of HGH is that, not only is it against baseball's rules to test for it, it is not yet possibly, scientifically, to accurately test for it. Hmmmm.That could be why guys like Pudge Rodriguez shrank after baseball implemented steroid testing , and other guys seem to be as big as ever.

... et tu, Ruth?I don't know enough to speak on any of that, although I'll ask again- if the Roids help guys hit a baseball, more than just hit it further, why aren't we seeing people regularly batting over .400 the way we're regularly seeing guys hit 50+ HRs?

 

[JuniorNB]

I did a quick google search for HGH and eyesight, and found this article; there are others:

Real improvement began, however, when one of his neurologists, at my suggestion, agreed to put David on growth hormone. He was eventually taking much larger doses than would be used to used to only correct age-related, adult growth hormone deficiency, at a cost of two thousand dollars a month. His blood levels of IGF-1 tripled. And his improvement was startling. His eyesight and coordination greatly improved. He had far less fatigue and greater endurance for physical activity. He could walk reasonably well for short distances and was no longer bedbound. He was still leading a very careful lifestyle, and, if he began to overdo things, he suffered a partial relapse, but, by and large, he was a far more functional person than he had been before the start of growth hormone therapy, and this improvement has now continued for more than a year.

* * *

And there was one other change Meg hadn't expected. She had the beginning of a cataract in her right eye. The progression of the condition not only halted, but in Ruth's opinion her eyesight improved. Assuming that it was human growth hormone that produced this effect, Ruth is not the only person to notice eye improvement after HGH replacement therapy. Dr. Julian Whitaker, a well-known physician and medical writer, reports that his own eyesight improved to such an extent after he began HGH that he seldom needs his glasses anymore. There has been speculation that HGH strengthens eye muscle fibers, contributing to focus and lessening eyestrain.

And the greatest advantage of HGH is that, not only is it against baseball's rules to test for it, it is not yet possibly, scientifically, to accurately test for it. Hmmmm.That could be why guys like Pudge Rodriguez shrank after baseball implemented steroid testing , and other guys seem to be as big as ever.

... et tu, Ruth?I don't know enough to speak on any of that, although I'll ask again- if the Roids help guys hit a baseball, more than just hit it further, why aren't we seeing people regularly batting over .400 the way we're regularly seeing guys hit 50+ HRs?

I'm not sure why you would think steroids would make a batter's average go up.

 

[El Floppo]

I did a quick google search for HGH and eyesight, and found this article; there are others:

Real improvement began, however, when one of his neurologists, at my suggestion, agreed to put David on growth hormone. He was eventually taking much larger doses than would be used to used to only correct age-related, adult growth hormone deficiency, at a cost of two thousand dollars a month. His blood levels of IGF-1 tripled. And his improvement was startling. His eyesight and coordination greatly improved. He had far less fatigue and greater endurance for physical activity. He could walk reasonably well for short distances and was no longer bedbound. He was still leading a very careful lifestyle, and, if he began to overdo things, he suffered a partial relapse, but, by and large, he was a far more functional person than he had been before the start of growth hormone therapy, and this improvement has now continued for more than a year.

* * *

And there was one other change Meg hadn't expected. She had the beginning of a cataract in her right eye. The progression of the condition not only halted, but in Ruth's opinion her eyesight improved. Assuming that it was human growth hormone that produced this effect, Ruth is not the only person to notice eye improvement after HGH replacement therapy. Dr. Julian Whitaker, a well-known physician and medical writer, reports that his own eyesight improved to such an extent after he began HGH that he seldom needs his glasses anymore. There has been speculation that HGH strengthens eye muscle fibers, contributing to focus and lessening eyestrain.

And the greatest advantage of HGH is that, not only is it against baseball's rules to test for it, it is not yet possibly, scientifically, to accurately test for it. Hmmmm.That could be why guys like Pudge Rodriguez shrank after baseball implemented steroid testing , and other guys seem to be as big as ever.

... et tu, Ruth?I don't know enough to speak on any of that, although I'll ask again- if the Roids help guys hit a baseball, more than just hit it further, why aren't we seeing people regularly batting over .400 the way we're regularly seeing guys hit 50+ HRs?

I'm not sure why you would think steroids would make a batter's average go up.

.... .... .....

 

[redman]

I did a quick google search for HGH and eyesight, and found this article; there are others:

Real improvement began, however, when one of his neurologists, at my suggestion, agreed to put David on growth hormone. He was eventually taking much larger doses than would be used to used to only correct age-related, adult growth hormone deficiency, at a cost of two thousand dollars a month. His blood levels of IGF-1 tripled. And his improvement was startling. His eyesight and coordination greatly improved. He had far less fatigue and greater endurance for physical activity. He could walk reasonably well for short distances and was no longer bedbound. He was still leading a very careful lifestyle, and, if he began to overdo things, he suffered a partial relapse, but, by and large, he was a far more functional person than he had been before the start of growth hormone therapy, and this improvement has now continued for more than a year.

* * *

And there was one other change Meg hadn't expected. She had the beginning of a cataract in her right eye. The progression of the condition not only halted, but in Ruth's opinion her eyesight improved. Assuming that it was human growth hormone that produced this effect, Ruth is not the only person to notice eye improvement after HGH replacement therapy. Dr. Julian Whitaker, a well-known physician and medical writer, reports that his own eyesight improved to such an extent after he began HGH that he seldom needs his glasses anymore. There has been speculation that HGH strengthens eye muscle fibers, contributing to focus and lessening eyestrain.

And the greatest advantage of HGH is that, not only is it against baseball's rules to test for it, it is not yet possibly, scientifically, to accurately test for it. Hmmmm.That could be why guys like Pudge Rodriguez shrank after baseball implemented steroid testing , and other guys seem to be as big as ever.

... et tu, Ruth?I don't know enough to speak on any of that, although I'll ask again- if the Roids help guys hit a baseball, more than just hit it further, why aren't we seeing people regularly batting over .400 the way we're regularly seeing guys hit 50+ HRs?

Well, there have been a lot of examples of guys - not just Bonds, but he's certainly one - who have continued to operate at a very high level at the plate into their late 30's and early 40's. Indeed, Bonds' best years have been the last 10 and not his first 10, and it's not even close. It may be that the benefits to one's eyesight from HGH only kick in when you're eyesight would otherwise be in decline.

 

[Snotbubbles]

We don't know who took steroids - A LOT of players took steroids - Pitchers took steroids... You can't take away Bonds records without knowing EXACTLY who did what when and where.... AND - It wasn't against MLB rules....

Steriods were considered a controlled substance circa 1992. It would be superfluous for MLB to write in a rule banning a substance that is illegal to begin with. The fact that they didn't test for steriods has just as much to do with the Players Association as it does with MLB. After watching the sham Congressional hearings you could see the real commissioner of MLB was Donald Fehr. To me, it's irrelevant who else was taking steriods, what we do know is that Bonds (through leaked Grand Jury testimony) used steriods.

 

[TheIronSheik]

We don't know who took steroids - A LOT of players took steroids - Pitchers took steroids... You can't take away Bonds records without knowing EXACTLY who did what when and where.... AND - It wasn't against MLB rules....

Steriods were considered a controlled substance circa 1992. It would be superfluous for MLB to write in a rule banning a substance that is illegal to begin with. The fact that they didn't test for steriods has just as much to do with the Players Association as it does with MLB. After watching the sham Congressional hearings you could see the real commissioner of MLB was Donald Fehr. To me, it's irrelevant who else was taking steriods, what we do know is that Bonds (through leaked Grand Jury testimony) used steriods.

Rules should be ammended to ensure everything is covered.

4.07When a manager, player, coach or trainer is ejected from a game, he shall leave the field immediately and take no further part in that game. He shall remain in the club house or change to street clothes and either leave the park or take a seat in the grandstand well removed from the vicinity of his team’s bench or bullpen. Also, no player should commit murder.

 

[JuniorNB]

We don't know who took steroids - A LOT of players took steroids - Pitchers took steroids... You can't take away Bonds records without knowing EXACTLY who did what when and where.... AND - It wasn't against MLB rules....

Steriods were considered a controlled substance circa 1992. It would be superfluous for MLB to write in a rule banning a substance that is illegal to begin with. The fact that they didn't test for steriods has just as much to do with the Players Association as it does with MLB. After watching the sham Congressional hearings you could see the real commissioner of MLB was Donald Fehr. To me, it's irrelevant who else was taking steriods, what we do know is that Bonds (through leaked Grand Jury testimony) used steriods.

Rules should be ammended to ensure everything is covered.

4.07When a manager, player, coach or trainer is ejected from a game, he shall leave the field immediately and take no further part in that game. He shall remain in the club house or change to street clothes and either leave the park or take a seat in the grandstand well removed from the vicinity of his team’s bench or bullpen. Also, no player should commit murder.

What about player jaywalking?

 

[El Floppo]

We don't know who took steroids - A LOT of players took steroids - Pitchers took steroids... You can't take away Bonds records without knowing EXACTLY who did what when and where.... AND - It wasn't against MLB rules....

Steriods were considered a controlled substance circa 1992. It would be superfluous for MLB to write in a rule banning a substance that is illegal to begin with. The fact that they didn't test for steriods has just as much to do with the Players Association as it does with MLB. After watching the sham Congressional hearings you could see the real commissioner of MLB was Donald Fehr. To me, it's irrelevant who else was taking steriods, what we do know is that Bonds (through leaked Grand Jury testimony) used steriods.

Rules should be ammended to ensure everything is covered.

4.07When a manager, player, coach or trainer is ejected from a game, he shall leave the field immediately and take no further part in that game. He shall remain in the club house or change to street clothes and either leave the park or take a seat in the grandstand well removed from the vicinity of his team’s bench or bullpen. Also, no player should commit murder.