The elite (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

I’m hearing this term used more and more lately by conservatives and Trump fans as a “catch-all” to describe liberals, world leaders, neocons, the FBI, the CIA, Wall Street types, and just about anybody else who either opposes Donald Trump, supports globalism, or some combination of the two. 

The world leaders who mocked Trump the other day are being derided as “global elites”. Pelosi and Schiff have been called “Democrat elites.” Last night, in anticipation of the disappointing IG report, I heard Horowitz labeled as a “typical Justice Department elite type.” 

The term seems to be used in the same way that pro-McCarthy types in the 50s used the word “egghead”- to describe a know it all intellectual type. Yet there may also be an element of hidden money and power too, which brings us dangerously close to traditional anti-Semitic tropes. 

Just wondering if anybody else has noticed this? 

 

[Kal El]

Isn't Trump a Wall Street type?

 

[timschochet]

Isn't Trump a Wall Street type?

He’s also a New York type. He’s the Eva Gabor character from Green Acres. Yet somehow he has always avoided this designation. I find that one the great ironies of his presidency. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The world leaders who mocked Trump the other day are being derided as “global elites”.

I know, right?

 

[Kal El]

He’s also a New York type. He’s the Eva Gabor character from Green Acres. Yet somehow he has always avoided this designation. I find that one the great ironies of his presidency. 

I see. He also donated to the democrats before he ran as a republican. That got me thinking, what if he got elected as a Democrat? Would we still have this same conversation, just from opposite sides?

 

[timschochet]

I see. He also donated to the democrats before he ran as a republican. That got me thinking, what if he got elected as a Democrat? Would we still have this same conversation, just from opposite sides?

Despite being back and forth on several issues, President Trump does appear to have some core beliefs on which he has been remarkably consistent about for decades now: economic nationalism, isolationism, nativism, protectionism. I don’t think these ideas would have gotten him too much success as a Democratic candidate. 

 

[dozer]

As a Democrat, it’s about time I get the respect I deserve.
 

I’ll have to elaborate on this later because I just got a call to go fix a lady’s toilet.

Hey, 20 bucks is 20 bucks 

 

[AAABatteries]

I've always wanted to be elite at something.

And to answer your question, no I haven't heard it.

 

[dgreen]

I feel like "elite", when being used by conservatives to talk about liberals, has been around for a few years.

 

[whoknew]

Being elite is now bad.

This country is ####ed.

 

[Zow]

I’m hearing this term used more and more lately by conservatives and Trump fans as a “catch-all” to describe liberals, world leaders, neocons, the FBI, the CIA, Wall Street types, and just about anybody else who either opposes Donald Trump, supports globalism, or some combination of the two. 

The world leaders who mocked Trump the other day are being derided as “global elites”. Pelosi and Schiff have been called “Democrat elites.” Last night, in anticipation of the disappointing IG report, I heard Horowitz labeled as a “typical Justice Department elite type.” 

The term seems to be used in the same way that pro-McCarthy types in the 50s used the word “egghead”- to describe a know it all intellectual type. Yet there may also be an element of hidden money and power too, which brings us dangerously close to traditional anti-Semitic tropes. 

Just wondering if anybody else has noticed this? 

This is timely, because I have had a couple of friends (mostly law enforcement officers/ex-military/blue collar) recently claim to ignore the testimony from the law professors because they are "liberal elites." It was very difficult to not lose my cool on them but bit my tongue. 

 

[zoonation]

He’s also a New York type. He’s the Eva Gabor character from Green Acres. Yet somehow he has always avoided this designation. I find that one the great ironies of his presidency. 

no kidding.  the whole thing has been bizarre from the beginning: 

manhattan real-estate developer forever trying desperately to get in the inner, inner circle of the upper east and west side elite, develops a global brand based on opulence and which caters to the rich.   gifted a 100 million to get going. 

same man courts an electoral base that he has had nothing to do with his entire life,  and declares himself their champion.  it is genuinely bizarre. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don't see any more of this at all than we've been seeing. 

As I understand it, Trump tries to appeal to the "regular" people. The whole Populist thing.

Wikipedia:

Elitists share the populist binary division but reverse the associations. Whereas populists regard the elites as bad and the common people as good, elitists view "the people" as being vulgar, immoral, and dangerous and "the elites" as being morally, culturally, and intellectually superior.

Haven't you often talked of Trump as a Populist?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I’m hearing this term used more and more lately by conservatives and Trump fans as a “catch-all” to describe liberals, world leaders, neocons, the FBI, the CIA, Wall Street types, and just about anybody else who either opposes Donald Trump, supports globalism, or some combination of the two. 

The world leaders who mocked Trump the other day are being derided as “global elites”. Pelosi and Schiff have been called “Democrat elites.” Last night, in anticipation of the disappointing IG report, I heard Horowitz labeled as a “typical Justice Department elite type.” 

The term seems to be used in the same way that pro-McCarthy types in the 50s used the word “egghead”- to describe a know it all intellectual type. Yet there may also be an element of hidden money and power too, which brings us dangerously close to traditional anti-Semitic tropes. 

Just wondering if anybody else has noticed this? 

I agree with your general point, but I think the anti-Semitic angle is going too far.  This is more like just straightforward anti-intellectualism and populism.

 

[Joe Bryant]

no kidding.  the whole thing has been bizarre from the beginning: 

manhattan real-estate developer forever trying desperately to get in the inner, inner circle of the upper east and west side elite, develops a global brand based on opulence and which caters to the rich.   gifted a 100 million to get going. 

same man courts an electoral base that he has had nothing to do with his entire life,  and declares himself their champion.  it is genuinely bizarre. 

It goes back to the cracked.com article I often link.

"But Trump is objectively a piece of ****" you say. "He insults people, he objectifies women, and cheats whenever possible! And he's not an everyman; he's a smarmy, arrogant billionaire!"

Wait, are you talking about Donald Trump, or Tony Stark?

You've never rooted for somebody like that? Someone powerful who gives your enemies the insults they deserve? Somebody with big fun appetites who screws up just enough to make them relatable? Like Dr. House or Walter White? Or any of the several million renegade cop characters who can break all the rules because they get #### done? Who only get #### done because they don't care about the rules?

"But those are fictional characters!" Okay, what about all those millionaire left-leaning talk show hosts? You think they keep their insults classy? Tune into any bit about Chris Christie and start counting down the seconds until the fat joke. Google David Letterman's sex scandals. But it's okay, because they're on our side, and everybody wants an ******* on their team -- a spiked bat to smash their enemies with. That's all Trump is. The howls of elite outrage are like the sounds of bombs landing on the enemy's fortress. The louder the better.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I know it's popular to rag on populism (ironic) but I do find it fascinating so many people seem surprised people love to cheer for the underdog.

 

[timschochet]

I don't see any more of this at all than we've been seeing. 

As I understand it, Trump tries to appeal to the "regular" people. The whole Populist thing.

Wikipedia:

Haven't you often talked of Trump as a Populist?

Sure. But its more his followers that are using the elite language. And I am noticing it more and more, but that also might be me not having paid attention to it before now.

 

[pinkham13]

Sure. But its more his followers that are using the elite language. And I am noticing it more and more, but that also might be me not having paid attention to it before now.

It’s almost like there isn’t a group of billionaires who own the airwaves and control the money supply pushing climate hysteria so they can make a buck and control your every move. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Sure. But its more his followers that are using the elite language. And I am noticing it more and more, but that also might be me not having paid attention to it before now.

I think folks that support him have always used it. Being the underdog outsider and not part of the elite has always been a huge part of his appeal. It's how I've always understood the people who support him. I totally see the appeal of it. It's why people love to see the Patriots lose. 

 

[timschochet]

I know it's popular to rag on populism (ironic) but I do find it fascinating so many people seem surprised people love to cheer for the underdog.

I love to cheer for the underdog too...in sports. In politics, I find it dangerous.

I'd like to use the pilot or surgeon analogy. Suppose you're in a plane, or having heart surgery. You want the pilot or surgeon to be a trained professional right? Populism argues why not just give some unknown dude the chance to fly your plane? After all, he can do just as good a job as the pilot, and doesn't he deserve a chance?

 

[Joe Bryant]

I love to cheer for the underdog too...in sports. In politics, I find it dangerous.

I'd like to use the pilot or surgeon analogy. Suppose you're in a plane, or having heart surgery. You want the pilot or surgeon to be a trained professional right? Populism argues why not just give some unknown dude the chance to fly your plane? After all, he can do just as good a job as the pilot, and doesn't he deserve a chance?

Exactly. Except leadership isn't heart surgery. 

 

[timschochet]

It’s almost like there isn’t a group of billionaires who own the airwaves and control the money supply pushing climate hysteria so they can make a buck and control your every move. 

I'm scared to get into the weeds with conspiracy stuff, but logically speaking, why would billionaires be pushing climate hysteria?

 

[Sinn Fein]

which brings us dangerously close to traditional anti-Semitic tropes. 

This is a tiresome trope, imo.

 

[timschochet]

Exactly. Except leadership isn't heart surgery. 

In some ways it is. I would argue, for example, that in order to navigate through world trade and international affairs, you really need to know what you're doing. But that was also my argument in 2016, and the voters did not agree with me (in the states that counted, anyhow.)

 

[beef]

I though to be an "elite" you needed Pickles approval?

 

[whoknew]

Exactly. Except leadership isn't heart surgery. 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but leadership and politics are both learned skills.

 

[Joe Bryant]

And you totally lost me trying to link Anti Elitist to Anti Semitic. I don't understand how you're linking the two. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

In some ways it is. I would argue, for example, that in order to navigate through world trade and international affairs, you really need to know what you're doing. But that was also my argument in 2016, and the voters did not agree with me (in the states that counted, anyhow.)

Yeah, we'll just have to disagree there then. 

I"m assuming based on this, you are dismissing a young person with less experience like Buttigieg?

 

[timschochet]

This is a tiresome trope, imo.

I hesitated to use it. @IvanKaramazov is correct that it doesn't really apply to the standard use of "elite" as the intellectual know it all "egghead", or the big city type.

But as I mentioned, I have also heard this term used to describe hidden money and influence, power used secretly to control affairs behind the scenes, etc. And somehow whenever you hear a lot of that sort of thing, anti-Semitism is never very far behind in my experience. 

 

[pinkham13]

I'm scared to get into the weeds with conspiracy stuff, but logically speaking, why would billionaires be pushing climate hysteria?

Ask one of the very well known elites pushing it for the last 30 years.... Al Gore. 

 

[timschochet]

Yeah, we'll just have to disagree there then. 

I"m assuming based on this, you are dismissing a young person with less experience like Buttigieg?

First, regarding the question of anti-Semitism (which I admit is rather loose, see my last post.)

To answer your question, no. When I listen to Buttigieg, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about. He seems well educated on the issues. That's important to me.

I also disagree with you on the use of the term "underdog" in this context. I think a political underdog is somebody who represents, or attempts to represent, the downtrodden in our society- historical examples might include a Cesar Chavez or a Martin Luther King. Even Bernie Sanders, though I disagree with many of his views. But I have a hard time assigning the term underdog to a right wing reactionary populist like Donald Trump. IMO, he doesn't represent the "have-nots" in any way; rather, he represents the "haves" who are resentful at the "have-nots" trying to share some of the pie. That's how I see it, anyhow. 

 

[timschochet]

Ask one of the very well known elites pushing it for the last 30 years.... Al Gore. 

Well you're making a rather circular argument. First off, I didn't know that Al Gore was a billionaire (that would surprise me.) Second, my understanding is that Al Gore has talked about climate change for a long time because he has been generally concerned about climate change for a long time. What evidence do you have that he has ulterior motives, and what are those motives?

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I think folks that support him have always used it. Being the underdog outsider and not part of the elite has always been a huge part of his appeal. It's how I've always understood the people who support him. I totally see the appeal of it. It's why people love to see the Patriots lose. 

+1

This isn’t new.   It isn’t unique to Trump.  Pat Buchanan talked about this 2 decades ago.  Constantly.

It’s also been going on non-stop since 2016.  Just because tim just noticed.....doesn’t mean it is some new or accelerating concept.

 

[timschochet]

+1

This isn’t new.   It isn’t unique to Trump.  Pat Buchanan talked about this 2 decades ago.  Constantly.

It’s also been going on non-stop since 2016.  Just because tim just noticed.....doesn’t mean it is some new or accelerating concept.

Pat Buchanan was certainly similar to Trump in a lot of ways. But yeah I don't remember him using the term as much. And it wouldn't surprise me if it was just me- I'm often late to the ballgame.

That being said, I still think it's a term worth discussing.

 

[Encumbrance]

I feel like "elite", when being used by conservatives to talk about liberals, has been around for a few years.

You're right. It's also come from the hard left, unironically. This isn't new. 

 

[Encumbrance]

Pat Buchanan was certainly similar to Trump in a lot of ways. But yeah I don't remember him using the term as much. And it wouldn't surprise me if it was just me- I'm often late to the ballgame.

That being said, I still think it's a term worth discussing.

We did in a thread that Gary Coal Man posted in and made it the subject of the OP. You and Tanner threw fits about it. 

 

[timschochet]

We did in a thread that Gary Coal Man posted in and made it the subject of the OP. You and Tanner threw fits about it. 

I don't even remember. I'll take your word for it.

 

[pinkham13]

Well you're making a rather circular argument. First off, I didn't know that Al Gore was a billionaire (that would surprise me.) Second, my understanding is that Al Gore has talked about climate change for a long time because he has been generally concerned about climate change for a long time. What evidence do you have that he has ulterior motives, and what are those motives?

Not hard to find facts man he would make a ton of money if climate change hysteria goes well

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/2800-carbon-scam-al-gore-profits-and-copenhagen

 

[Joe Bryant]

First, regarding the question of anti-Semitism (which I admit is rather loose, see my last post.)

To answer your question, no. When I listen to Buttigieg, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about. He seems well educated on the issues. That's important to me.

I also disagree with you on the use of the term "underdog" in this context. I think a political underdog is somebody who represents, or attempts to represent, the downtrodden in our society- historical examples might include a Cesar Chavez or a Martin Luther King. Even Bernie Sanders, though I disagree with many of his views. But I have a hard time assigning the term underdog to a right wing reactionary populist like Donald Trump. IMO, he doesn't represent the "have-nots" in any way; rather, he represents the "haves" who are resentful at the "have-nots" trying to share some of the pie. That's how I see it, anyhow. 

Cool. We'll just disagree there. 

 

[timschochet]

Cool. We'll just disagree there. 

It happens.

 

[timschochet]

Not hard to find facts man he would make a ton of money if climate change hysteria goes well

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/2800-carbon-scam-al-gore-profits-and-copenhagen

Yeah. This seems a little far-fetched to me.

 

[Encumbrance]

I don't even remember. I'll take your word for it.

Sure thing. It was a post about President Trump and other right-wing leaders around the globe gaining momentum because of what the people say is a disconnect between them and their democratically elected personages regarding social issues, labor issues, etc.

Coal Man was posting an article by someone who had posited the theory about the "elites" as a more homogenized force than once was thought. I said it might have IQ ramifications and you were dismissing it as racism, even though I never brought up race.

So sure, take my word for it. Without tooting my own horn, and realizing that threads digress, you weren't happy with the nebulous definition that seems all-encompassing and then got hung up on me and Bell Curve IQ racism.

The topic was never fully fleshed, and is worthy of a thread, though I think a lot of people that support this kind of talk will balk at what is being suggested in its place.

Just IMO.

 

[pinkham13]

Yeah. This seems a little far-fetched to me.

 Just documented facts bro. He has an investment with Kleiner Perkins that pays off in Biliions if the hysteria goes well. You couldn’t have read it in three minutes anyway. Your mind was made up beforehand I am sure.

 

[timschochet]

Thanks Encumbrance.

So let's forget about the Trump angle for a moment and also Joe's comparison to sports (since sporting events have a win and loss result that doesn't really apply to real life, which goes on): why does a resentment of the expert exist in our society? I acknowledge it exists, and that whatever terminology you want to use, the resentment itself is pretty old. But why is it there? Why do people, including myself at times, take pleasure when an expert is proven wrong?

 

[Endowed]

Elites. definition; the best of a class.

         antonym; dregs.  definition; the most worthless part of something.

 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

On a tangential note, I recommend Joel Stein's book, In Defense of Elitism. It's a very entertaining read.

 

[Encumbrance]

Thanks Encumbrance.

So let's forget about the Trump angle for a moment and also Joe's comparison to sports (since sporting events have a win and loss result that doesn't really apply to real life, which goes on): why does a resentment of the expert exist in our society? I acknowledge it exists, and that whatever terminology you want to use, the resentment itself is pretty old. But why is it there? Why do people, including myself at times, take pleasure when an expert is proven wrong?

No sweat.

That's a question that would take a long time. If you believe in pop psychology, the democratic sentiment is also the democratic prejudice, and to be above the crowd is hardly what those in the crowd want to see. Success and riches to the meritorious victors? Surely the game must be rigged!

In American History, the blending of the expert into natural authority, especially in legal tribunals, suits, criminal law, etc. re-upped itself with fury during the Progressive Era. The Progressive Era used a love of "science" to justify a whole host of claims, and to cement those claims into law, wherein entire concepts of rights changed from before. I think you've talked about political pluralism before and that's the history of the expert butted up against the individualist vs. pluralist conceptions of rights.

Simply put, and I'm cribbing the notes of a famous legal historian here: The Revolutionary and Constitutional Era up until about 1830 was elitist yet strained to be domcratic, the era from 1837-1910 was less so, and really devolved power into state and individual hands. Then the Progressive Era, as we know, cemented a whole new conception of rights and virtues in the country. These rights and virtues were never totally agreed upon, hence a longstanding hatred of the elite in American and democratic countries throughout the world.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

The world leaders who mocked Trump the other day are being derided as “global elites”. Pelosi and Schiff have been called “Democrat elites.” Last night, in anticipation of the disappointing IG report, I heard Horowitz labeled as a “typical Justice Department elite type.”

Let's not overlook the fact that many of the witnesses testifying against Trump in the impeachment proceedings are ambassadors and other State Department personnel.

You can't deny that most foreign service officers, including ambassadors, are globalists.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

On a tangential note, I recommend Joel Stein's book, In Defense of Elitism. It's a very entertaining read.

I second this recommendation.  I picked this up for airplane reading a few weeks ago and it was really good.  It's anti-Trump, but the author does a good job of showing why a certain type of Trump supporter comes to support Trump and painting them in a somewhat sympathetic light.

More importantly, it's funny.

 

[pinkham13]

I second this recommendation.  I picked this up for airplane reading a few weeks ago and it was really good.  It's anti-Trump, but the author does a good job of showing why a certain type of Trump supporter comes to support Trump and painting them in a somewhat sympathetic light.

More importantly, it's funny.

I don’t think it is that his supporters like him so much as they hate being lied to about climate change so Al Gore and his buddies can make billions.

So instead of voting for a very tired old and deeply crooked Clinton who is wife to a suspected pedophile and womanizer they made a purely logical choice by voting against the wicked woman. Lesser evil I guess.