The FBG Top 300 Books of All Time (fiction edition) | #16 Animal Farm by George Orwell | Running list in posts #3 and #4 (12 Viewers)

[Psychopav]

Now then, Dim. What does that great big horsey gape of a grin portend?

21

A Clockwork Orange

Anthony Burgess

kupcho1, guru_007, Dr. Octopus, KeithR, Psychopav, rockaction, shuke

21. A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess
shuke: #2
kupcho1: #8
Psychopav: #26
rockaction: #26
KeithR: #39
Dr. Octopus: #45
guru_007: #52
Total points: 407
Average: 58.1

I'm not even going to wait the short amount of time required between posts to start talking about this one.

If you've only seen the movie and haven't read the book, you don't really know the story, or at least not how it actually ends. It's so dramatically different that Burgess actually repudiated his own book years afterward. Or I should say the American version of the novel (more later).

We all suffer from the popular desire to make the known notorious. The book I am best known for, or only known for, is a novel I am prepared to repudiate: written a quarter of a century ago, a jeu d'esprit knocked off for money in three weeks, it became known as the raw material for a film which seemed to glorify sex and violence. The film made it easy for readers of the book to misunderstand what it was about, and the misunderstanding will pursue me until I die. I should not have written the book because of this danger of misinterpretation.

And what exactly is the misinterpretation? A Clockwork Orange is a dystopian novel about the nature of good and evil.
“Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses to be bad perhaps in some way better than a man who has the good imposed upon him?”

This is a very structured novel consisting of 21 chapters (done intentionally by Burgess as a nod to 21 being the age of maturity) broken into thirds.
Part 1 describes the world of Alex, our protagonist in the story, wherein he gets himself into a little trouble having caused much mayhem in the process
Part 2 delves into the Ludovico technique, designed to "rehabilitate" Alex
Part 3 shows us the result of that rehabilitation

The movie adaptation misses the entire point of the novel by omitting the last chapter. Burgess agreed to allow the last chapter of the book to be omitted from the American version as he was strapped for cash. Per his site:

Myth: Anthony Burgess hated Stanley Kubrick’s 1971 film of A Clockwork Orange.

Fact: Anthony Burgess thought the film was a masterpiece and that Kubrick was a great filmmaker. But Burgess resented having to defend the film on television and in print as it was not his own work.

I won't spoil the book for you as I recommend reading it, but here's how the movie ended, followed by what Kubrick left out

Spoiler: Movie ending

The film's ending leaves Alex, the protagonist, unreformed, having undergone a treatment to suppress his violent tendencies, but ultimately returning to his old ways

Spoiler: Chapter 21

In the final chapter, Alex—now 18 years old and working for the nation's musical recording archives—finds himself halfheartedly preparing for another night of crime with a new gang (Len, Rick, and Bully). After a chance encounter with Pete, who has reformed and married, Alex finds himself taking less and less pleasure in acts of senseless violence. He begins contemplating giving up crime himself to become a productive member of society and start a family of his own while reflecting on the notion that his children could end up being just as destructive as he has been, if not more so.

Come and get one in the yarbles, if you have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly, thou.

I saw the movie many times before ever having read the book, and I have to disagree with Burgess. I take the theme to be the same as that of the book, and have since the first time I saw the flick when I was probably 17 years old. Even if the movie had ended the same way as the book, I think the objection around the purient interest would still be there - the visual medium virtually assures it, unless Kubrick would have chosen to water it down.

Right right?

 

[kupcho1]

OK, so I have conferred with Newark airport on how to bring this plane in for a landing, and here's what I'm thinking:

#20 through #16: M - F (May 19 - 23)
#15 through #11: M - F (May 26 - 30)
#10 through #6: M - F (Jun 2 - 6)
#5 through #3: M - W (Jun 9 - 11)

#1 and #2 on Jun 12th

I think it will be pretty clear by the time we reach the end which two books will be contending for the top spot, so I'd like to conserve a wee bit of suspense on which comes out on top.

Thoughts?

 

[Don Quixote]

Works for me. But I’m good with whatever works for you.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It’s your thing.

 

[Ilov80s]

Works for me. At this point every time you post a book it’s a total surprise to me so i have no idea what the rest of the list could be.

 

[Ilov80s]

Looking at my list, my current guess is 3 of my books will make the top 20.

 

[scoobus]

I think I have 6 left that'll make it, but maybe I'll be surprised.

 

[Don Quixote]

Looking at my list, my current guess is 3 of my books will make the top 20.

Think I had three that I was guessing as well.

 

[kupcho1]

You guys should be economists your predictions are so spot on.

 

[Ilov80s]

Oh wait I noticed a couple more, now I say 5 lol

 

[Dr_Zaius]

I’m guessing 6 in the top 20 for me. I’m also thinking my #2 is first overall, but I’m not very confident in either prediction lol.

 

[Psychopav]

It’s your thing.

Do what you wanna do.

 

[krista4]

I had A Clockwork Orange at #60 on my list until the very end, when I decided to slot in a few books that wouldn't get other votes instead.

I have five left that should make the top 20.

 

[kupcho1]

I'm glad I've been wrong enough to keep in practice. . . You can't avoid it, you've got to learn to handle it. If you only come face to face with your own mistakes once or twice in your life it's bound to be extra painful. I face mine every day -- that way they ain't usually much worse than a dry shave.

20

Lonesome Dove

Larry McMurtry

kupcho1, chaos34, Mrs.Marco, Barry2,

20. Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry
Barry2: #1
chaos34: #2
kupcho1: #16
Mrs.Marco: #16
Total points: 415
Average: 103.8

I ain't gonna lie, I was so surprised only 4 people listed this book given the demographics, that I went back through all of the lists again to see if Google sheets just wasn't picking it up as in similar cases. Nope. Just us 4. To be fair, it did place a lot higher here than in the TV countdown where it came in at #127 just behind Moonlighting.

I'll let @Barry2 have first dibs on a write up, but will probably be back later to chime in.

 

[Ilov80s]

I'm glad I've been wrong enough to keep in practice. . . You can't avoid it, you've got to learn to handle it. If you only come face to face with your own mistakes once or twice in your life it's bound to be extra painful. I face mine every day -- that way they ain't usually much worse than a dry shave.

20

Lonesome Dove

Larry McMurtry

kupcho1, chaos34, Mrs.Marco, Barry2,

20. Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry
Barry2: #1
chaos34: #2
kupcho1: #16
Mrs.Marco: #16
Total points: 415
Average: 103.8

I ain't gonna lie, I was so surprised only 4 people listed this book given the demographics, that I went back through all of the lists again to see if Google sheets just wasn't picking it up as in similar cases. Nope. Just us 4. To be fair, it did place a lot higher here than in the TV countdown where it came in at #127 just behind Moonlighting.

I'll let @Barry2 have first dibs on a write up, but will probably be back later to chime in.

I’ve never read any McMurtry but I should correct that. Last Picture Show, Terms of Endearment, Hud (based on Horseman, Pass By) are three all time great movies that there’s no way I wouldn’t love the books.

 

[Desert_Power]

I'm glad I've been wrong enough to keep in practice. . . You can't avoid it, you've got to learn to handle it. If you only come face to face with your own mistakes once or twice in your life it's bound to be extra painful. I face mine every day -- that way they ain't usually much worse than a dry shave.

20

Lonesome Dove

Larry McMurtry

kupcho1, chaos34, Mrs.Marco, Barry2,

20. Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry
Barry2: #1
chaos34: #2
kupcho1: #16
Mrs.Marco: #16
Total points: 415
Average: 103.8

I ain't gonna lie, I was so surprised only 4 people listed this book given the demographics, that I went back through all of the lists again to see if Google sheets just wasn't picking it up as in similar cases. Nope. Just us 4. To be fair, it did place a lot higher here than in the TV countdown where it came in at #127 just behind Moonlighting.

I'll let @Barry2 have first dibs on a write up, but will probably be back later to chime in.

Just because I saw this in the title, you guys should definitely check out a Lonesome Dove Bistro if you're near one. One of my favorite places for a meal.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I'm glad I've been wrong enough to keep in practice. . . You can't avoid it, you've got to learn to handle it. If you only come face to face with your own mistakes once or twice in your life it's bound to be extra painful. I face mine every day -- that way they ain't usually much worse than a dry shave.

20

Lonesome Dove

Larry McMurtry

kupcho1, chaos34, Mrs.Marco, Barry2,

20. Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry
Barry2: #1
chaos34: #2
kupcho1: #16
Mrs.Marco: #16
Total points: 415
Average: 103.8

I ain't gonna lie, I was so surprised only 4 people listed this book given the demographics, that I went back through all of the lists again to see if Google sheets just wasn't picking it up as in similar cases. Nope. Just us 4. To be fair, it did place a lot higher here than in the TV countdown where it came in at #127 just behind Moonlighting.

I'll let @Barry2 have first dibs on a write up, but will probably be back later to chime in.

This would've been in my Top 2 and I think - if there is such a thing - it's "The Great American Novel".

 

[Ilov80s]

Interesting note that I wasn’t aware of until doing some basic research today is that McMurtry didn’t really care for Lonesome Dove. He didn’t like its legacy and felt it ended up becoming something he didn’t agree with and hadn’t set out to write. He meant for people to walk away from it disliking the characters and setting. Instead people walked away idolizing the characters and time. He considered it a Gone with the Wind level betrayal of history. McMurtry meant it as a critique of the west and instead it became a key piece of the mythical text of the west. He considers it a failure and said definitively Lonesome Dove is not a masterpiece.

Also it was originally written as a movie script for John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart and Henry Fonda but Wayne ended up walking away from the project because he didn’t want his character to die so that’s why he ended up turning it into a novel.

 

[Don Quixote]

I'm glad I've been wrong enough to keep in practice. . . You can't avoid it, you've got to learn to handle it. If you only come face to face with your own mistakes once or twice in your life it's bound to be extra painful. I face mine every day -- that way they ain't usually much worse than a dry shave.

20

Lonesome Dove

Larry McMurtry

kupcho1, chaos34, Mrs.Marco, Barry2,

20. Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry
Barry2: #1
chaos34: #2
kupcho1: #16
Mrs.Marco: #16
Total points: 415
Average: 103.8

I ain't gonna lie, I was so surprised only 4 people listed this book given the demographics, that I went back through all of the lists again to see if Google sheets just wasn't picking it up as in similar cases. Nope. Just us 4. To be fair, it did place a lot higher here than in the TV countdown where it came in at #127 just behind Moonlighting.

I'll let @Barry2 have first dibs on a write up, but will probably be back later to chime in.

I’ve never read any McMurtry but I should correct that. Last Picture Show, Terms of Endearment, Hud (based on Horseman, Pass By) are three all time great movies that there’s no way I wouldn’t love the books.

I’ve never read any of his books either. Need to dive into some of those.

 

[Barry2]

He meant for people to walk away from it disliking the characters and setting. Instead people walked away idolizing the characters and time.

Some of the characters are very likable but I don't know who would idolize them. It was a brutal time and setting but also interesting.

 

[Mrs.Marco]

Chicken is in the oven! I just inquired as to the marinade. I'm told "it's a marinade of various condiments from the fridge that I should get rid of."

Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison

I think it’s a crime that this isn’t required reading in every school. While it’s an extrapolation or a distillation of the Black experience, it’s no less moving. The narrator begins telling his tale, opening with a scene of one of the most harrowing depictions of a fight or battle royale, where all the young Black students are fighting to pick up pennies, for the amusement of these White club members, before he’s presented with a scholarship to a Black university. That’s not the worst thing that happens in the book, but it seems so real and personal that it's one of most shocking things I've ever read.

It's about finding out that the protagonist is invisible simply because he’s never seen as a man in full, but as emblematic of all Black men. Every single step that he makes – he's invisible to white people unless he’s of use to them, and if he deviates outside, then he’s shunned. He's invisible to Black people unless he becomes a leader to them. There’s no room for an actual identity, never a chance to develop his own identity. Every choice - even down to the food he eats - is perilous. After graduating college and going to the big city, he sees someone selling yams, and he’s excited until he thinks that means he's a “country Negro” and then it tastes terrible, that he’s somehow supposed to be above it. It’s so impossibly tragic…Ellison does a great job so that the whole time you’re searching for an actual person, and that person totally eludes you.

I just bought a copy of Invisible Man--a big gap in my reading history, so I'm excited to read it.

 

[Barry2]

Lonesome Dove is such an experience. A group of characters drive cattle from Texas to Montana. An adventure dealing with all the dangers you'd expect on the frontier. It's character driven which makes this so good. Two retired Texas Rangers Gus and Call are convinced by another former Ranger to head north and start a ranch. The story weaves through the people in the drive. Friendship, sacrifice, coming of age, heart. 800 something pages isn't too much it's just right. It will leave you feeling somber and happy.

I thought I had more time to prepare for this summary. I was going to skim through some chapters to rekindle my memory. I do have time to search the Latin phrase that Gus liked "Uva uvam vivendo varia fit" A grape ripens by living near another grape.

 

[Mrs.Marco]

Lonesome Dove is one of those books that allows you to escape back in time. Such a great Western novel. I recently gave it to my 18-year-old nephew and he really loved it, too. You know it's good if it can compete with TikTok

 

[Ilov80s]

He meant for people to walk away from it disliking the characters and setting. Instead people walked away idolizing the characters and time.

Some of the characters are very likable but I don't know who would idolize them. It was a brutal time and setting but also interesting.

I think a similar thing happened with the adaptation of his book for the movie Hud. Hud is this antihero (quite ahead of its time). He is a bad person. He cheats at business and commits fraud, he’s sexually abusive, a drunk and a total a-hole to everyone. Yet the general takeaway from the movie was Hud is a counterculture hero sticking a middle finger to the man and society. I would guess in general McMurtry doesn’t see his characters the same way that the public has received them and this has bothered him deeply. He did a Reddit AMA before his death and basically he said the way people interpreted Lonesome Dove was something he had to reckon with and it doesn’t sound like he ever came to peace with it. I get the impression if he could, he would consider going back in time and just tossing the draft in the trash. But also he might just be one of those guys who is unhappy in general and overly critical of everything they do.

 

[AAABatteries]

He meant for people to walk away from it disliking the characters and setting. Instead people walked away idolizing the characters and time.

Some of the characters are very likable but I don't know who would idolize them. It was a brutal time and setting but also interesting.

I think a similar thing happened with the adaptation of his book for the movie Hud. Hud is this antihero (quite ahead of its time). He is a bad person. He cheats at business and commits fraud, he’s sexually abusive, a drunk and a total a-hole to everyone. Yet the general takeaway from the movie was Hud is a counterculture hero sticking a middle finger to the man and society. I would guess in general McMurtry doesn’t see his characters the same way that the public has received them and this has bothered him deeply. He did a Reddit AMA before his death and basically he said the way people interpreted Lonesome Dove was something he had to reckon with and it doesn’t sound like he ever came to peace with it. I get the impression if he could, he would consider going back in time and just tossing the draft in the trash. But also he might just be one of those guys who is unhappy in general and overly critical of everything they do.

I’m following along in the thread but don’t think I’ve posted. I’m a novice reader and below beginner when it comes to the arts in general. I’m totally fascinated by this McMurty story. I’ve never really created any art and the idea that he was that distraught over how people perceived what he wrote is totally foreign to me. Fascinating.

 

[Barry2]

Lonesome Dove is one of those books that allows you to escape back in time. Such a great Western novel. I recently gave it to my 18-year-old nephew and he really loved it, too. You know it's good if it can compete with TikTok

I bought a copy for my 60 year old uncle when he broke his leg, also loved it.

 

[Barry2]

He meant for people to walk away from it disliking the characters and setting. Instead people walked away idolizing the characters and time.

Some of the characters are very likable but I don't know who would idolize them. It was a brutal time and setting but also interesting.

I think a similar thing happened with the adaptation of his book for the movie Hud. Hud is this antihero (quite ahead of its time). He is a bad person. He cheats at business and commits fraud, he’s sexually abusive, a drunk and a total a-hole to everyone. Yet the general takeaway from the movie was Hud is a counterculture hero sticking a middle finger to the man and society. I would guess in general McMurtry doesn’t see his characters the same way that the public has received them and this has bothered him deeply. He did a Reddit AMA before his death and basically he said the way people interpreted Lonesome Dove was something he had to reckon with and it doesn’t sound like he ever came to peace with it. I get the impression if he could, he would consider going back in time and just tossing the draft in the trash. But also he might just be one of those guys who is unhappy in general and overly critical of everything they do.

People will always like rogues. Tony Soprano, Walter white, Don Draper.

 

[Ilov80s]

He meant for people to walk away from it disliking the characters and setting. Instead people walked away idolizing the characters and time.

Some of the characters are very likable but I don't know who would idolize them. It was a brutal time and setting but also interesting.

I think a similar thing happened with the adaptation of his book for the movie Hud. Hud is this antihero (quite ahead of its time). He is a bad person. He cheats at business and commits fraud, he’s sexually abusive, a drunk and a total a-hole to everyone. Yet the general takeaway from the movie was Hud is a counterculture hero sticking a middle finger to the man and society. I would guess in general McMurtry doesn’t see his characters the same way that the public has received them and this has bothered him deeply. He did a Reddit AMA before his death and basically he said the way people interpreted Lonesome Dove was something he had to reckon with and it doesn’t sound like he ever came to peace with it. I get the impression if he could, he would consider going back in time and just tossing the draft in the trash. But also he might just be one of those guys who is unhappy in general and overly critical of everything they do.

I’m following along in the thread but don’t think I’ve posted. I’m a novice reader and below beginner when it comes to the arts in general. I’m totally fascinated by this McMurty story. I’ve never really created any art and the idea that he was that distraught over how people perceived what he wrote is totally foreign to me. Fascinating.

It is interesting how we can create something but once it goes out into the world, it’s out of our control. Maybe like raising a child only to see them become the exact kind of person you tried to steer them away from. Or maybe someone who helped develop a critical social media technology thinking it was a way to increase human connection only to now watch as their creation has destroyed the very thing they meant to enhance. Or you start a farm with the idea of promoting healthy natural unprocessed eating in your community only to see your new investors push you aside and sign an exclusive deal to supply potatoes to McDonald’s.

 

[krista4]

It's bookcook chat time! I'm keeping a running list of what OH "owes" and am letting him choose what to talk about it, so these are in no particular order and are way overdue.

So far OH has taken kale out of the fridge, and our cat Floofers* has stolen a leaf of kale and run off with it. I've often thought she wants to be a vegetarian and we're holding her back.

Frankenstein by Mary Shelley - Shelley was 20 or 21 years old, which is insanely young not only to finish a novel but for it to be one that mined such rich themes, like madness, man's hubris, what it means to create life...all of these themes we're still exploring in fiction now. The mine is so rich, and we haven't hit bottom - we still see these troubling existential questions in each new episode of Severance. What responsibility do you have to a life you've created, and in fact what responsibility does god have to us if he created us. Dangerous, heretical questions. The kind of horror and sci-fi novels we saw later that we would call cosmic horror, all have Frankenstein and Poe at the core of them. Without Frankenstein, we wouldn't have H.P. Lovecraft. It is certainly flawed and can be a slog to read, but if anyone's been in a fiction writing workshop in college, you know how difficult it is to read whatever a 20something considers good. Compared to the other great horror book, Dracula, it's infinitely better, richer in its possibilities, and seemed to spawn a whole new kind of literature.

Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro - It's impossible to overstate the challenge that Ishiguro had in front of him, to write in the first person, to write convincingly of the feelings expresses from someone who's been taught to repress all of their feelings, whose language and emotional capacity has been stunted in every way, whose whole persona is to disappear and be subsumed by another. To have someone try to convey their condition when they haven't the vocabulary or practice necessary to voice that is an impossible task, and the grace in which he did it is overwhelming. It's really an overwhelming book altogether. What I like is that he doesn't allow Stevens off the hook, to imply "he was just following orders", but what he is saying is that this poor dude, because of the manner in which he was brought up, never really had a chance. Which by the way is a similar task to what Richard Wright had when he wrote Native Son. Also I generally don't care about readability, but this book is instantly digestible. Anybody can read this book - there are no tricks of language or clever inverted way to say anything. You could read it in an afternoon and think about it forever.

*Full name: Her Royal Highness Nurse Parsnip Potatoface of House Floof

 

[krista4]

I bought some Hakurei turnips at the farmers market yesterday. OH is working with those now. Sadly I didn't get enough of them, which is why we're supplementing with kale.

The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams

I think I was in junior high when I first read this, and it was my second introduction to British humo(u)r. It was the first time I read a book where the humor felt designed specifically to delight me. Every joke hit so hard, and I didn’t know anyone else in my life who would appreciate it. The ravenous bug-blatter beast of Traal [ed. - he had to spell this all for me] - a creature so stupid that it thinks that if you can’t see it, it can’t see you - was so staggeringly funny, so silly, so dumb and smart simultaneously, and I bet I could still recite the book to this day despite not having picked it up in 20 years. It's around the same time I discovered Monty Python and the Kids in the Hall, and the universe was unbelievably better than it had been the week before that.

Later I would meet all the other people who felt that way about this book, and they were uniformly insufferable.

 

[krista4]

Turnips are in the oven. Now he's seasoning a steak.

Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy

I heard so much for so long about how violent this book is – and it really is – and how impenetrable the prose is. But upon reading it, I found it wasn’t dense and impenetrable. It feels like it was written in an 19th century religious ecstasy, with something exalting and manic about it. But the "radical preacher" quality of it really does fit the subject matter, which is an account of the US expansion west, which was achieved primarily through enabling the most lawless, vicious, and cruel people (who were also very stupid). I think if Moby **** defines an American voice in literature, then Blood Meridian took that voice and nailed us as a people. If Americans are different from Europeans, or Mexicans, or anyone else, then this is why. It’s harrowing; pretty much every page has something on it that’s difficult to live with once you’ve grasped it. The character of Judge Holden is the single most terrifying character in all of literature, the most frightening thing that’s ever existed. I feel like the idea of the United States as an empire began with this original sin, the kind of murder that’s described on basically every page, and I don’t see any way out of it. I don’t see how we can deny it or rectify it - between slavery and the "Indian wars," the point is that we are a cursed people, and rightfully so.

It’s haunting and the most terrifying horror novel in American literature. Everybody should read it. It helps to read it out loud. It’s more fun to read out loud.

[He stops with the steak to go grab the book out of our library.] Look at this, on the first page: "The mother dead these fourteen years did incubate in her own bosom the creature who would carry her off." He's describing the mother of the main character, who died in childbirth, by calling the main character "the creature who would carry her off." It's poetry.

 

[krista4]

As of today, he still owes five write-ups, though I told him I don't think anyone needs to write up Huck Finn. We all know why that's on here. We'll try to catch up on some more maybe on Thursday when he has a day off.

 

[Chaos34]

Lonesome Dove is such an experience. A group of characters drive cattle from Texas to Montana. An adventure dealing with all the dangers you'd expect on the frontier. It's character driven which makes this so good. Two retired Texas Rangers Gus and Call are convinced by another former Ranger to head north and start a ranch. The story weaves through the people in the drive. Friendship, sacrifice, coming of age, heart. 800 something pages isn't too much it's just right. It will leave you feeling somber and happy.

I thought I had more time to prepare for this summary. I was going to skim through some chapters to rekindle my memory. I do have time to search the Latin phrase that Gus liked "Uva uvam vivendo varia fit" A grape ripens by living near another grape.

Just want to point out Barry2 and I both actually have this at #1. It's the best book I've ever read, ofc imo. I ranked 1st Folio above it, a historic compilation of Shakespeare's plays cobbled together in the 7 years after his death by two of his best friends. The significance and importance of the 1st Folio manuscript and the content therein made it my #1, but it isn't a book. Lonesome Dove is my favorite book. I like the idea that it is the Great American Novel. It has competition for sure.

I read it while working for a company that had a sales staff of 50 give or take. We were passing a couple copies to the next in line when one of us finished. We kept an eye on whoever was reading it as they approached a specific part of the story. We'd gather around quietly and wait for his or her reaction. Obviously this was hard to time, but we managed it several times. Every time the reader broke into tears, and we'd be consoling. Sometimes some of us would cry again just remembering.

 

[kupcho1]

Just want to point out Barry2 and I both actually have this at #1.

No, you don't.

Check the message you sent me if you're still of this opinion. This is one time I didn't **** up.

 

[kupcho1]

Which is better - to have laws and agree, or to hunt and kill?

19

Lord of the Flies

William Golding

kupcho1, guru_007, Dr. Octopus, Frostillicus, KeithR, Dr_Zaius, Psychopav, shuke

19. Lord of the Flies by William Golding
KeithR: #9
shuke: #10
Dr_Zaius: #22
Frostillicus: #24
guru_007: #25
Psychopav: #36
kupcho1: #42
Dr. Octopus: #60
Total points: 419
Average: 52.4

Once again, I double checked the other lists and no one else had it on theirs. I think I got the rankings correct too.

I'm going to leave the conch shell on the log if anyone sees differently.

 

[krista4]

Just want to point out Barry2 and I both actually have this at #1.

No, you don't.

Check the message you sent me if you're still of this opinion. This is one time I didn't **** up.

His post was confusing, but essentially he was saying it's his #1 book, but he didn't have it #1 only because he put the Shakespeare thing there.

Also, I've never had any desire to read Lonesome Dove, but his post might have convinced me to give it a whirl.

 

[kupcho1]

His post was confusing, but essentially he was saying it's his #1 book, but he didn't have it #1 only because he put the Shakespeare thing there.

I might be a little trigger happy given all of the mistakes made so far.

 

[Frostillicus]

Which is better - to have laws and agree, or to hunt and kill?

19

Lord of the Flies

William Golding

kupcho1, guru_007, Dr. Octopus, Frostillicus, KeithR, Dr_Zaius, Psychopav, shuke

19. Lord of the Flies by William Golding
KeithR: #9
shuke: #10
Dr_Zaius: #22
Frostillicus: #24
guru_007: #25
Psychopav: #36
kupcho1: #42
Dr. Octopus: #60
Total points: 419
Average: 52.4

Once again, I double checked the other lists and no one else had it on theirs. I think I got the rankings correct too.

I'm going to leave the conch shell on the log if anyone sees differently.

I remember reading this in high school or junior high and a lot of it still stuck with me, but I reallly didn't enjoy it much at the time, probably because it was forced reading and then having to write about it and discuss it to death. This year my son was reading it for school and I decided to give it another shot as an adult. As you can see it's #24 for me, so I enjoyed it quite a bit more this time.

Now that I'm older and understand kids more than I did as a kid, a lot of this rang true. The selfishness, the fighting, the posturing, the lack of any kid of real plan except by a few kids who are mostly ridiculed and hunted for daring to try to think ahead. Piggy's glasses and demise, Ralph, the monster, and the ending (which I don't love) have all pretty much stood the test of time. I know there have been more than a handful of times in my life when the phrase "I have the conch" has been said when some is trying to talk in a loud group.

 

[Ilov80s]

As someone who has had to teach and help kids study Lord of the Flies more times than I can count, I will be refraining from discussion of this one.

 

[kupcho1]

As someone who has had to teach and help kids study Lord of the Flies more times than I can count, I will be refraining from discussion of this one.

Thanks. I'd hate to have someone familiar with the book chime in.

 

[Psychopav]

As someone who has had to teach and help kids study Lord of the Flies more times than I can count, I will be refraining from discussion of this one.

Thanks. I'd hate to have someone familiar with the book chime in.

I'd write something up but my glasses are broken.

 

[Dr_Zaius]

As someone who has had to teach and help kids study Lord of the Flies more times than I can count, I will be refraining from discussion of this one.

Thanks. I'd hate to have someone familiar with the book chime in.

I'd write something up but my glasses are broken.

Sucks to your assmar!

 

[Ilov80s]

As someone who has had to teach and help kids study Lord of the Flies more times than I can count, I will be refraining from discussion of this one.

Thanks. I'd hate to have someone familiar with the book chime in.

It’s just not a favorite of mine. And it’s been hard for me over the years to fake excitement to get kids to read it.

 

[krista4]

As someone who has had to teach and help kids study Lord of the Flies more times than I can count, I will be refraining from discussion of this one.

Thanks. I'd hate to have someone familiar with the book chime in.

It’s just not a favorite of mine. And it’s been hard for me over the years to fake excitement to get kids to read

It didn't make my or OH's list, either, and I don't know about him but it wasn't close in my case. But I do understand why people like it and completely expected to see it high on this list.

 

[Ilov80s]

As someone who has had to teach and help kids study Lord of the Flies more times than I can count, I will be refraining from discussion of this one.

Thanks. I'd hate to have someone familiar with the book chime in.

It’s just not a favorite of mine. And it’s been hard for me over the years to fake excitement to get kids to read

It didn't make my or OH's list, either, and I don't know about him but it wasn't close in my case. But I do understand why people like it and completely expected to see it high on this list.

It's a perfect book for HS too. It has the whole kids in charge thing and the symbolism is an easy study. There's just something I never enjoyed about it but I never argued it shouldn't be taught or anything like that. It has merit for sure.

 

[shuke]

I can't remember when I read Lord of the Flies for school, probably around 7th grade. Perfect book for the age and really got me interested in reading.

 

[kupcho1]

All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

18

Anna Karenina

Leo Tolstoy

Don Quixote, Oliver Humanzee, Dr_Zaius, Eephus, Psychopav

18. Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
Dr_Zaius: #3
Don Quixote: #9
Oliver Humanzee: #9
Eephus: #23
Psychopav: #32
Total points: 420
Average: 84.0

This is the last book we'll see with 5 voters. However, there is one more that was listed by fewer than 5. What does this mean? I have no idea.

Tolstoy's "first true novel" is another one that was published in serial form. The periodical The Russian Messenger published all but the very last part of the story. I believe the last part appeared on-line before the book as a whole was published.

 

[Dr_Zaius]

Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
It can be hard to pinpoint why a novel resonates with you. I've tried to read a lot of the "classics" in adulthood, and I picked this up shortly after reading The Brothers Karamazov. As is typical for me, it took me a bit to understand who everybody was and their relationships to each other, but once I did I just couldn't put this one down.

I love the way Tolstoy's writing peers into the minds of his characters, and the insights into social expectations and conventions versus what they may be thinking internally. At one level, the novel is a vivid window into another time and culture. We see love, infatuation, ambition, and betrayal, and we see all of the ways that these bounce off of Russian culture in the 1870s. Religion, gender roles, and class all come prominently into play. And at another level, the characters could easily be pulled from modern society. For example, I'm sure we've all met the charming rogue, or the cold political schemer who tries to weigh all of his moves against perception. I think in the end the plotline itself is engaging and well-written, but what really made it stick with me is the way it tackles the human condition in so many dimensions that are relevant in any time period or place.

 

[Ilov80s]

Another huge blind spot for me is Tolstoy

 

[Oliver Humanzee]

Lord of the Flies is a fine horror/adventure book, but its central premise--that people will revert to barbarism and human sacrifice--is false and dumb and sucks ****.


I think in Golding's case he's projecting his own bleak view of humanity on to a bunch of kids he made up, and appealing to the internalized authority of Imperial England who until very recently spent centuries traveling around the globe using violence to "enlighten" various people they determined to be "savages". It is a parent beating a child "for their own good"--ultimately an appeal to authoritarianism.


Also, in 1965 a bunch of actual boarding-school kids were actual castaways on an uninhabited South Pacific island and they lived there for months and didnt murder one another and in fact functioned quite cooperatively for 15 months.

Tongan castaways - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org