The Johan Santana rumor mill (1 Viewer)

[Wrigley]

12/26: The Twins were initially asking for Phi Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy from the Yankees in a potential Johan Santana deal, but they've apparently backed off those demands and are now willing to take pitching prospect Jeffrey Marquez instead of Kennedy, according to the NY Times. Still, the timetable for when a deal will be made is unclear. And the Red Sox are still thought to be heavily involved, as they are expected to have a deal of Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie on the table.

I love it....Yanks sticking it to the Sox and making them jack their offer up. Maybe now the Sox front O will realize that Crisp ain't getting it done.

If the Yankees end up giving up Hughes+ to get Santana, they haven't "stuck it" to anyone.And the notion that Marquez is an acceptible substitute for Kennedy in terms of trade value is utterly and completely laughable. Marquez is barely a prospect -- He's a notch or two below Masterson which makes him a "C Level" guy. A Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez deal isn't really jacking up the price over the Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie deal at all, and the Red Sox surely know that.

You Boston guys are great. Giving up Hughes, Cabrera, Igawa and Marquez is sticking it to the rest of the league. The best pitcher in baseball in a Yanks uniform for a couple of prospects?... That's pretty devastating. My only regret would be the Yanks not making this deal in time to get a decent FA CF.

See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.

This is as ignorant as the Yankees and Yankee fans were when the Yankees were up 3-0 in the playoffs on Boston (thinking that they couldn't lose). These teams are very close right now and any series between them is a flip of a coin. Any team that gets Santana will be the better team in the short term, the question is whether they would be better in the long term.

Since when did the Yankees worry about the long term?

 

[pigskin pimp]

The Yule logs are but ashes. The fruitcakes are being digested, a process that will continue until July. The Moet bottles are empty, giving off a nauseating, sour smell that really makes you wonder how the stuff possibly tasted good the previous night. Baseball generally goes into hibernation for the last two weeks or so of December. But, alas, the holidays are over. Spring training is but seven weeks away. Let's get that pilot light going on the hot stove again, shall we? We'll start with the biggest question (on-field, at least) looming over MLB: Why the heck hasn't anyone traded for Johan Santana? It's funny, because Santana is widely regarded as one of the top three pitchers in baseball -- if not No. 1. He turns 29 in March. He is 93-44 in his career with a 3.22 ERA. He has pitched 200-plus innings the last four seasons and has struck out 1,381 batters in just over 1,300 innings. He is, by any measure, a top-shelf ace, a general manager's dream. But no one seems to want him. The Twins offered a four-year, $80 million extension, but billionaire owner Carl Pohlad would offer nothing longer, despite the fact that he'll have a new stadium in 2010. The Yankees offered the Twins a package that included outfielder Melky Cabrera and pitcher Phil Hughes, but they refused to include Ian Kennedy and are said to be wary of the luxury tax ramifications that would come with giving Santana the seven-year, $150 million deal he warrants. The Red Sox are offering packages that include Jon Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury, but not both. Word is, they'd prefer not to get Santana but are keeping their noses in the talks in case the Yankees relent and sweeten their offer. Other teams have shown interest -- the Mariners, Mets and Angels -- but they haven't shown the Twins the right offer. Am I crazy? We're talking Johan Santana, right? He's an ace, a durable lefty available in a market in which back-of-the-rotation starter Carlos Silva signed for $48 million over four years. It's the same market in which Barry Zito, coming off three very average seasons, received $126 million over seven years. How is it that teams are not falling all over themselves to get Santana? "I think there are a couple of reasons," says one NL executive. "For one thing, the Zito deal is scary. What if you pay him all that money and he falls apart? And there's free agency. Why clear out your best prospects for someone who you can sign next winter?" Valid points, but again, this is Santana. He is not showing the signs of decline that Zito was showing before signing with the Giants last offseason. And yes, he will be a free agent next winter. The idea, though, is to give him a contract before he hits the open market. It sounds so simple, but no one has done it. The Red Sox won't include both Lester and Ellsbury? Why not? They think they're good enough to repeat as champs next year without Santana? Maybe. But is anyone all that afraid of a postseason 1-2-3 of Josh Beckett (scary), Curt Schilling (will he make it to October?) and Daisuke Matsuzaka (who faded in '07)? Couldn't they use a legit No. 2 to back up Beckett and keep pressure off Matsuzaka? Look, I know Boston fans are caught up in Ellsbury worship right now, but he is not going to hit .353 forever. He is fast and exciting, but Sox fans haven't seen him in a slump, nor have they seen him handle 162 games for Boston. Fans like the energy and enthusiasm he brings. I say, if you want energy and enthusiasm, buy a six-pack of Duracells and watch Regis and Kelly. Ellsbury has very little pop in his bat and, at age 24, that's not going to change. Who's to say he's the All-Star the Fenway faithful envision? As for Lester, he still needs to cut down on his walks and solve his consistency problem. If he does that, he could be a lefthanded ace. Or, the Red Sox could just skip the "ifs" that come with Lester and trade for Santana. A lefthanded ace. The Yankees don't want to give up Ian Kennedy? The guy has tremendous potential, I understand that. Five years from now, Kennedy could be better than Santana. But Santana is in the prime of his career, with several good years ahead of him. It's not as though you're dealing for a 35-year-old. This is the best lefty out there, and he could be pitching in Yankee Stadium. It's a no-brainer. Santana might never lose at Yankee Stadium. And who'd want to face a trio of Santana, Chien-Ming Wang and Andy Pettitte in the playoffs? The Mets won't trade Jose Reyes? For Santana? Reyes is an amazing young talent, but again, Santana is a lefthanded ace. Why is there even any discussion? It's much easier to replace a shortstop than a starting pitcher. The Mets still think they're the class of the National League, but who's their 1-2 punch in the rotation? Pedro Martinez, coming off shoulder surgery, and John Maine? That's not getting you past the Diamondbacks. Might not even get you past the Phillies and Braves in the division. Tom Glavine is gone and, let's face it, Oliver Perez is not going 15-10 again next season. The Dodgers are out, the Angels ambivalent, the Mariners timid. These teams should be faxing a list of their top 10 prospects to the Twins with a note reading, "Take your pick." They should be ponying up a contract Santana can't refuse. I feel bad for new Twins general manager Bill Smith. He already has watched Torii Hunter and Silva leave, and now he is facing a gaggle of GMs struck by a bizarre fit of restraint, even though Smith is trying to move a player for whom teams should be mortgaging the farm (system). Smith is being patient, hoping that, as the offseason dwindles, one of the bidders will crack and change its offer. In other words, now that the holidays are over, Smith is hoping some team will come to its senses and realize he is offering Johan Santana. From Sporting news

finally a Santana is in the prime of his career. Even if the trading team has to eat the last 2 years of so-so, this is Johan 'Freaking' Santana. The premier lefty in the game who averages more than a K per inning. This guy is gold for 3 to 5 years.This is like Sandy Koufax on the market and being offered a Maury Willis and junk.There's a reason he hasn't been traded yet. Twin's GM Billly Smith is not going to start his career as the guy who gave up Santana for junk.Hopefully, Santana lowers his extra years demand and can sign with the Twins, and the BoSox can keep being the BoSox and the Yankees can keep being the Yankees.

 

[shadyridr]

12/26: The Twins were initially asking for Phi Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy from the Yankees in a potential Johan Santana deal, but they've apparently backed off those demands and are now willing to take pitching prospect Jeffrey Marquez instead of Kennedy, according to the NY Times. Still, the timetable for when a deal will be made is unclear. And the Red Sox are still thought to be heavily involved, as they are expected to have a deal of Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie on the table.

I love it....Yanks sticking it to the Sox and making them jack their offer up. Maybe now the Sox front O will realize that Crisp ain't getting it done.

If the Yankees end up giving up Hughes+ to get Santana, they haven't "stuck it" to anyone.And the notion that Marquez is an acceptible substitute for Kennedy in terms of trade value is utterly and completely laughable. Marquez is barely a prospect -- He's a notch or two below Masterson which makes him a "C Level" guy. A Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez deal isn't really jacking up the price over the Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie deal at all, and the Red Sox surely know that.

You Boston guys are great. Giving up Hughes, Cabrera, Igawa and Marquez is sticking it to the rest of the league. The best pitcher in baseball in a Yanks uniform for a couple of prospects?... That's pretty devastating. My only regret would be the Yanks not making this deal in time to get a decent FA CF.

See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.

This is as ignorant as the Yankees and Yankee fans were when the Yankees were up 3-0 in the playoffs on Boston (thinking that they couldn't lose). These teams are very close right now and any series between them is a flip of a coin. Any team that gets Santana will be the better team in the short term, the question is whether they would be better in the long term.

Since when did the Yankees worry about the long term?

Umm since 2006.

 

[Black Ice]

Not signing Santana a year ago, when he was asking them to, was a massive mistake. Now new GM Bill Smith is having sleepless nights trying to make a good Santana deal. Ownership needs to be proactive. It’s a $6 billion industry. Everyone is making money, right Carl?

But, it is ludicrous to ever think "you" know more than the GM's of an organization, (as posted prior) Look, I run two companies, was a division I catcher who was drafted but broke a disc in my back that ended my baseball career and am a student of the game (physically, I was not good enough to play in the majors - even if I hadn't broken a disc in my back, I would have been AT BEST like a Girardi), but I do not think it is ludicrous to think I have more perspective at times on making good moves. Yeah, it might sound conceded, but I have been putting my thoughts and predictions in writing for over 5 years for a decent contingent of people and the Yankees would have been much better off listening to to my advice (even if I don't have all the info they have). I remember screaming at everyone who would listen (and most people would look at me like "what is wrong with you") that the Yankees just wasted 12 million dollars on Sterling Hitchcock. I called it the "stupidest signing in the history of baseball." They gave a guy worth no more than 2 million 12 million dollars. I also said that signing Giambi who is a great hitter for a contract at that length would be an albatross for the Yanks for the final 3 years. BTW, I was the first person who said Jeter should move to CF when ARod got there and I was crucified for it by my Yankee brethren. I could go on, but, anyway, while being an arm chair QB is very easy to do compared to making the real decisions that could cost you your job, I do not think it is unreasonable to question moves and to question non moves if it is done with good logic to back it up and you go back and look at your own track record and at the end of the year, let everyone know what predictions worked and which ones didn't (I do this every year).This notion that this is their livelihood so they ALWAYS know better, is pure folly. BTW, I am not referring to the average fan who is emotional and making comments without perspective. But, many times the good ole boy network keeps people employed who shouldn't be.Peace and Happy New Year all!

fyi - telling us how wonderful and smart you are is CONCEITED. knowing when you should remove your foot from your mouth is CONCEDING the obvious.when you get the chance, please post your resume here for us to fawn over.thx

 

[Liquid Tension]

12/26: The Twins were initially asking for Phi Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy from the Yankees in a potential Johan Santana deal, but they've apparently backed off those demands and are now willing to take pitching prospect Jeffrey Marquez instead of Kennedy, according to the NY Times. Still, the timetable for when a deal will be made is unclear. And the Red Sox are still thought to be heavily involved, as they are expected to have a deal of Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie on the table.

I love it....Yanks sticking it to the Sox and making them jack their offer up. Maybe now the Sox front O will realize that Crisp ain't getting it done.

If the Yankees end up giving up Hughes+ to get Santana, they haven't "stuck it" to anyone.And the notion that Marquez is an acceptible substitute for Kennedy in terms of trade value is utterly and completely laughable. Marquez is barely a prospect -- He's a notch or two below Masterson which makes him a "C Level" guy. A Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez deal isn't really jacking up the price over the Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie deal at all, and the Red Sox surely know that.

You Boston guys are great. Giving up Hughes, Cabrera, Igawa and Marquez is sticking it to the rest of the league. The best pitcher in baseball in a Yanks uniform for a couple of prospects?... That's pretty devastating. My only regret would be the Yanks not making this deal in time to get a decent FA CF.

See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.

This is as ignorant as the Yankees and Yankee fans were when the Yankees were up 3-0 in the playoffs on Boston (thinking that they couldn't lose). These teams are very close right now and any series between them is a flip of a coin. Any team that gets Santana will be the better team in the short term, the question is whether they would be better in the long term.

Since when did the Yankees worry about the long term?

You have not been paying attention

 

[Liquid Tension]

Not signing Santana a year ago, when he was asking them to, was a massive mistake. Now new GM Bill Smith is having sleepless nights trying to make a good Santana deal. Ownership needs to be proactive. It’s a $6 billion industry. Everyone is making money, right Carl?

But, it is ludicrous to ever think "you" know more than the GM's of an organization, (as posted prior) Look, I run two companies, was a division I catcher who was drafted but broke a disc in my back that ended my baseball career and am a student of the game (physically, I was not good enough to play in the majors - even if I hadn't broken a disc in my back, I would have been AT BEST like a Girardi), but I do not think it is ludicrous to think I have more perspective at times on making good moves. Yeah, it might sound conceited, but I have been putting my thoughts and predictions in writing for over 5 years for a decent contingent of people and the Yankees would have been much better off listening to to my advice (even if I don't have all the info they have). I remember screaming at everyone who would listen (and most people would look at me like "what is wrong with you") that the Yankees just wasted 12 million dollars on Sterling Hitchcock. I called it the "stupidest signing in the history of baseball." They gave a guy worth no more than 2 million 12 million dollars. I also said that signing Giambi who is a great hitter for a contract at that length would be an albatross for the Yanks for the final 3 years. BTW, I was the first person who said Jeter should move to CF when ARod got there and I was crucified for it by my Yankee brethren. I could go on, but, anyway, while being an arm chair QB is very easy to do compared to making the real decisions that could cost you your job, I do not think it is unreasonable to question moves and to question non moves if it is done with good logic to back it up and you go back and look at your own track record and at the end of the year, let everyone know what predictions worked and which ones didn't (I do this every year).This notion that this is their livelihood so they ALWAYS know better, is pure folly. BTW, I am not referring to the average fan who is emotional and making comments without perspective. But, many times the good ole boy network keeps people employed who shouldn't be.Peace and Happy New Year all!

fyi - telling us how wonderful and smart you are is CONCEITED. knowing when you should remove your foot from your mouth is CONCEDING the obvious.when you get the chance, please post your resume here for us to fawn over.thx

Wow, thanks for correcting my homonyms (sort of) in this non formal forum...I corrected them for you! BTW, when you use an acronym it is appropriate to use all capitals? FYI not fyi. Also, you may want to start every sentence with a capital letter. How about focusing on the point? Why is it absurd to question moves from GM's? If you predict things in advance you are not being a Monday morning QB? My point is that some people are qualified to give opinions who are not presently in the game. In fact, the people who have been posting in this thread have a good feel for the game (that is not present in many forums)Next time try and bring something to the table.

 

[Liquid Tension]

12/26: The Twins were initially asking for Phi Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy from the Yankees in a potential Johan Santana deal, but they've apparently backed off those demands and are now willing to take pitching prospect Jeffrey Marquez instead of Kennedy, according to the NY Times. Still, the timetable for when a deal will be made is unclear. And the Red Sox are still thought to be heavily involved, as they are expected to have a deal of Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie on the table.

I love it....Yanks sticking it to the Sox and making them jack their offer up. Maybe now the Sox front O will realize that Crisp ain't getting it done.

If the Yankees end up giving up Hughes+ to get Santana, they haven't "stuck it" to anyone.And the notion that Marquez is an acceptible substitute for Kennedy in terms of trade value is utterly and completely laughable. Marquez is barely a prospect -- He's a notch or two below Masterson which makes him a "C Level" guy. A Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez deal isn't really jacking up the price over the Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie deal at all, and the Red Sox surely know that.

You Boston guys are great. Giving up Hughes, Cabrera, Igawa and Marquez is sticking it to the rest of the league. The best pitcher in baseball in a Yanks uniform for a couple of prospects?... That's pretty devastating. My only regret would be the Yanks not making this deal in time to get a decent FA CF.

See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.

This is as ignorant as the Yankees and Yankee fans were when the Yankees were up 3-0 in the playoffs on Boston (thinking that they couldn't lose). These teams are very close right now and any series between them is a flip of a coin. Any team that gets Santana will be the better team in the short term, the question is whether they would be better in the long term.

Really, did 2007 not just happen?

C'mon, I hope the people realize that someone who just won a series from another team could play the same exact series and come out on the losing end. Example, When the Yanks were up 3-0 on Boston, if that were a 5 games series the Yanks would have swept Boston. If they would have played a 5 game series right after that Boston would have swept the Yanks. After 162 games last year Boston had a TWO game advantage over the Yanks and in head to head games the Yanks were 10-8 against Boston...so which is a more statistically valid sample a short series, 18 head to head games or a season?

 

[Liquid Tension]

When will hank just shut the %#$@ up!

Hank Steinbrenner is returning to his office Thursday to begin working on "a final decision" regarding a trade for Johan Santana. And he believes the New York Yankees have made the top offer for the Minnesota ace the New York Daily News reported. "I think the Twins realize our offer is the best one," Steinbrenner said Wednesday in a telephone interview. "I feel confident they're not going to trade him before checking with us one last time and I think they think we've already made the best offer." Steinbrenner said the offer "does not include two of the three young pitchers" - Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy, from a group that also includes untouchable Joba Chamberlain — "but it's still the best one. And let's face it, we're the best able to handle the kind of contract (extension) Santana will be after." Steinbrenner would not divulge the Yanks' offer, but multiple reports have pegged it as Hughes, outfielder Melky Cabrera, pitching prospect Jeff Marquez and another prospect. Source: New York Daily News

 

[Wrigley]

12/26: The Twins were initially asking for Phi Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy from the Yankees in a potential Johan Santana deal, but they've apparently backed off those demands and are now willing to take pitching prospect Jeffrey Marquez instead of Kennedy, according to the NY Times. Still, the timetable for when a deal will be made is unclear. And the Red Sox are still thought to be heavily involved, as they are expected to have a deal of Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie on the table.

I love it....Yanks sticking it to the Sox and making them jack their offer up. Maybe now the Sox front O will realize that Crisp ain't getting it done.

If the Yankees end up giving up Hughes+ to get Santana, they haven't "stuck it" to anyone.And the notion that Marquez is an acceptible substitute for Kennedy in terms of trade value is utterly and completely laughable. Marquez is barely a prospect -- He's a notch or two below Masterson which makes him a "C Level" guy. A Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez deal isn't really jacking up the price over the Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie deal at all, and the Red Sox surely know that.

You Boston guys are great. Giving up Hughes, Cabrera, Igawa and Marquez is sticking it to the rest of the league. The best pitcher in baseball in a Yanks uniform for a couple of prospects?... That's pretty devastating. My only regret would be the Yanks not making this deal in time to get a decent FA CF.

See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.

This is as ignorant as the Yankees and Yankee fans were when the Yankees were up 3-0 in the playoffs on Boston (thinking that they couldn't lose). These teams are very close right now and any series between them is a flip of a coin. Any team that gets Santana will be the better team in the short term, the question is whether they would be better in the long term.

Since when did the Yankees worry about the long term?

You have not been paying attention

Yea, I guess the 20 Mill they threw at Old Man River last year just screams "long" term.

 

[Liquid Tension]

12/26: The Twins were initially asking for Phi Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy from the Yankees in a potential Johan Santana deal, but they've apparently backed off those demands and are now willing to take pitching prospect Jeffrey Marquez instead of Kennedy, according to the NY Times. Still, the timetable for when a deal will be made is unclear. And the Red Sox are still thought to be heavily involved, as they are expected to have a deal of Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie on the table.

I love it....Yanks sticking it to the Sox and making them jack their offer up. Maybe now the Sox front O will realize that Crisp ain't getting it done.

If the Yankees end up giving up Hughes+ to get Santana, they haven't "stuck it" to anyone.And the notion that Marquez is an acceptible substitute for Kennedy in terms of trade value is utterly and completely laughable. Marquez is barely a prospect -- He's a notch or two below Masterson which makes him a "C Level" guy. A Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez deal isn't really jacking up the price over the Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie deal at all, and the Red Sox surely know that.

You Boston guys are great. Giving up Hughes, Cabrera, Igawa and Marquez is sticking it to the rest of the league. The best pitcher in baseball in a Yanks uniform for a couple of prospects?... That's pretty devastating. My only regret would be the Yanks not making this deal in time to get a decent FA CF.

See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.

This is as ignorant as the Yankees and Yankee fans were when the Yankees were up 3-0 in the playoffs on Boston (thinking that they couldn't lose). These teams are very close right now and any series between them is a flip of a coin. Any team that gets Santana will be the better team in the short term, the question is whether they would be better in the long term.

Since when did the Yankees worry about the long term?

You have not been paying attention

Yea, I guess the 20 Mill they threw at Old Man River last year just screams "long" term.

It didn't impact the future did it?

 

[Darth Cheney]

The Yule logs are but ashes. The fruitcakes are being digested, a process that will continue until July. The Moet bottles are empty, giving off a nauseating, sour smell that really makes you wonder how the stuff possibly tasted good the previous night. Baseball generally goes into hibernation for the last two weeks or so of December. But, alas, the holidays are over. Spring training is but seven weeks away. Let's get that pilot light going on the hot stove again, shall we? We'll start with the biggest question (on-field, at least) looming over MLB: Why the heck hasn't anyone traded for Johan Santana? It's funny, because Santana is widely regarded as one of the top three pitchers in baseball -- if not No. 1. He turns 29 in March. He is 93-44 in his career with a 3.22 ERA. He has pitched 200-plus innings the last four seasons and has struck out 1,381 batters in just over 1,300 innings. He is, by any measure, a top-shelf ace, a general manager's dream. But no one seems to want him. The Twins offered a four-year, $80 million extension, but billionaire owner Carl Pohlad would offer nothing longer, despite the fact that he'll have a new stadium in 2010. The Yankees offered the Twins a package that included outfielder Melky Cabrera and pitcher Phil Hughes, but they refused to include Ian Kennedy and are said to be wary of the luxury tax ramifications that would come with giving Santana the seven-year, $150 million deal he warrants. The Red Sox are offering packages that include Jon Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury, but not both. Word is, they'd prefer not to get Santana but are keeping their noses in the talks in case the Yankees relent and sweeten their offer. Other teams have shown interest -- the Mariners, Mets and Angels -- but they haven't shown the Twins the right offer. Am I crazy? We're talking Johan Santana, right? He's an ace, a durable lefty available in a market in which back-of-the-rotation starter Carlos Silva signed for $48 million over four years. It's the same market in which Barry Zito, coming off three very average seasons, received $126 million over seven years. How is it that teams are not falling all over themselves to get Santana? "I think there are a couple of reasons," says one NL executive. "For one thing, the Zito deal is scary. What if you pay him all that money and he falls apart? And there's free agency. Why clear out your best prospects for someone who you can sign next winter?" Valid points, but again, this is Santana. He is not showing the signs of decline that Zito was showing before signing with the Giants last offseason. And yes, he will be a free agent next winter. The idea, though, is to give him a contract before he hits the open market. It sounds so simple, but no one has done it. The Red Sox won't include both Lester and Ellsbury? Why not? They think they're good enough to repeat as champs next year without Santana? Maybe. But is anyone all that afraid of a postseason 1-2-3 of Josh Beckett (scary), Curt Schilling (will he make it to October?) and Daisuke Matsuzaka (who faded in '07)? Couldn't they use a legit No. 2 to back up Beckett and keep pressure off Matsuzaka? Look, I know Boston fans are caught up in Ellsbury worship right now, but he is not going to hit .353 forever. He is fast and exciting, but Sox fans haven't seen him in a slump, nor have they seen him handle 162 games for Boston. Fans like the energy and enthusiasm he brings. I say, if you want energy and enthusiasm, buy a six-pack of Duracells and watch Regis and Kelly. Ellsbury has very little pop in his bat and, at age 24, that's not going to change. Who's to say he's the All-Star the Fenway faithful envision? As for Lester, he still needs to cut down on his walks and solve his consistency problem. If he does that, he could be a lefthanded ace. Or, the Red Sox could just skip the "ifs" that come with Lester and trade for Santana. A lefthanded ace. The Yankees don't want to give up Ian Kennedy? The guy has tremendous potential, I understand that. Five years from now, Kennedy could be better than Santana. But Santana is in the prime of his career, with several good years ahead of him. It's not as though you're dealing for a 35-year-old. This is the best lefty out there, and he could be pitching in Yankee Stadium. It's a no-brainer. Santana might never lose at Yankee Stadium. And who'd want to face a trio of Santana, Chien-Ming Wang and Andy Pettitte in the playoffs? The Mets won't trade Jose Reyes? For Santana? Reyes is an amazing young talent, but again, Santana is a lefthanded ace. Why is there even any discussion? It's much easier to replace a shortstop than a starting pitcher. The Mets still think they're the class of the National League, but who's their 1-2 punch in the rotation? Pedro Martinez, coming off shoulder surgery, and John Maine? That's not getting you past the Diamondbacks. Might not even get you past the Phillies and Braves in the division. Tom Glavine is gone and, let's face it, Oliver Perez is not going 15-10 again next season. The Dodgers are out, the Angels ambivalent, the Mariners timid. These teams should be faxing a list of their top 10 prospects to the Twins with a note reading, "Take your pick." They should be ponying up a contract Santana can't refuse. I feel bad for new Twins general manager Bill Smith. He already has watched Torii Hunter and Silva leave, and now he is facing a gaggle of GMs struck by a bizarre fit of restraint, even though Smith is trying to move a player for whom teams should be mortgaging the farm (system). Smith is being patient, hoping that, as the offseason dwindles, one of the bidders will crack and change its offer. In other words, now that the holidays are over, Smith is hoping some team will come to its senses and realize he is offering Johan Santana. From Sporting news

finally a Santana is in the prime of his career. Even if the trading team has to eat the last 2 years of so-so, this is Johan 'Freaking' Santana. The premier lefty in the game who averages more than a K per inning. This guy is gold for 3 to 5 years.This is like Sandy Koufax on the market and being offered a Maury Willis and junk.There's a reason he hasn't been traded yet. Twin's GM Billly Smith is not going to start his career as the guy who gave up Santana for junk.Hopefully, Santana lowers his extra years demand and can sign with the Twins, and the BoSox can keep being the BoSox and the Yankees can keep being the Yankees.

I'm not saying I wouldn't make a deal for Santana...however how good has the Yanks track record been on big name players in the past few years? Giambi, Mussina,Pavano,Wright,Kevin Brown,Johnny Damon, Roger Clemens(this past time), (I know I'm missing one or two more) all have either not lived to expectations or just plain sucked. (Mussina can be given some slack...but my recollection of his signing was that he'd finally win 20 games and with a potent offense behind him be dominant). Most of those were FA signings. Then you factor in that you are being asked to give up not one...but two high level pitching prospects who have already seen big league action and it's no wonder why fans are a little gun shy.

 

[Frostillicus]

The Yule logs are but ashes. The fruitcakes are being digested, a process that will continue until July. The Moet bottles are empty, giving off a nauseating, sour smell that really makes you wonder how the stuff possibly tasted good the previous night. Baseball generally goes into hibernation for the last two weeks or so of December. But, alas, the holidays are over. Spring training is but seven weeks away. Let's get that pilot light going on the hot stove again, shall we? We'll start with the biggest question (on-field, at least) looming over MLB: Why the heck hasn't anyone traded for Johan Santana? It's funny, because Santana is widely regarded as one of the top three pitchers in baseball -- if not No. 1. He turns 29 in March. He is 93-44 in his career with a 3.22 ERA. He has pitched 200-plus innings the last four seasons and has struck out 1,381 batters in just over 1,300 innings. He is, by any measure, a top-shelf ace, a general manager's dream. But no one seems to want him. The Twins offered a four-year, $80 million extension, but billionaire owner Carl Pohlad would offer nothing longer, despite the fact that he'll have a new stadium in 2010. The Yankees offered the Twins a package that included outfielder Melky Cabrera and pitcher Phil Hughes, but they refused to include Ian Kennedy and are said to be wary of the luxury tax ramifications that would come with giving Santana the seven-year, $150 million deal he warrants. The Red Sox are offering packages that include Jon Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury, but not both. Word is, they'd prefer not to get Santana but are keeping their noses in the talks in case the Yankees relent and sweeten their offer. Other teams have shown interest -- the Mariners, Mets and Angels -- but they haven't shown the Twins the right offer. Am I crazy? We're talking Johan Santana, right? He's an ace, a durable lefty available in a market in which back-of-the-rotation starter Carlos Silva signed for $48 million over four years. It's the same market in which Barry Zito, coming off three very average seasons, received $126 million over seven years. How is it that teams are not falling all over themselves to get Santana? "I think there are a couple of reasons," says one NL executive. "For one thing, the Zito deal is scary. What if you pay him all that money and he falls apart? And there's free agency. Why clear out your best prospects for someone who you can sign next winter?" Valid points, but again, this is Santana. He is not showing the signs of decline that Zito was showing before signing with the Giants last offseason. And yes, he will be a free agent next winter. The idea, though, is to give him a contract before he hits the open market. It sounds so simple, but no one has done it. The Red Sox won't include both Lester and Ellsbury? Why not? They think they're good enough to repeat as champs next year without Santana? Maybe. But is anyone all that afraid of a postseason 1-2-3 of Josh Beckett (scary), Curt Schilling (will he make it to October?) and Daisuke Matsuzaka (who faded in '07)? Couldn't they use a legit No. 2 to back up Beckett and keep pressure off Matsuzaka? Look, I know Boston fans are caught up in Ellsbury worship right now, but he is not going to hit .353 forever. He is fast and exciting, but Sox fans haven't seen him in a slump, nor have they seen him handle 162 games for Boston. Fans like the energy and enthusiasm he brings. I say, if you want energy and enthusiasm, buy a six-pack of Duracells and watch Regis and Kelly. Ellsbury has very little pop in his bat and, at age 24, that's not going to change. Who's to say he's the All-Star the Fenway faithful envision? As for Lester, he still needs to cut down on his walks and solve his consistency problem. If he does that, he could be a lefthanded ace. Or, the Red Sox could just skip the "ifs" that come with Lester and trade for Santana. A lefthanded ace. The Yankees don't want to give up Ian Kennedy? The guy has tremendous potential, I understand that. Five years from now, Kennedy could be better than Santana. But Santana is in the prime of his career, with several good years ahead of him. It's not as though you're dealing for a 35-year-old. This is the best lefty out there, and he could be pitching in Yankee Stadium. It's a no-brainer. Santana might never lose at Yankee Stadium. And who'd want to face a trio of Santana, Chien-Ming Wang and Andy Pettitte in the playoffs? The Mets won't trade Jose Reyes? For Santana? Reyes is an amazing young talent, but again, Santana is a lefthanded ace. Why is there even any discussion? It's much easier to replace a shortstop than a starting pitcher. The Mets still think they're the class of the National League, but who's their 1-2 punch in the rotation? Pedro Martinez, coming off shoulder surgery, and John Maine? That's not getting you past the Diamondbacks. Might not even get you past the Phillies and Braves in the division. Tom Glavine is gone and, let's face it, Oliver Perez is not going 15-10 again next season. The Dodgers are out, the Angels ambivalent, the Mariners timid. These teams should be faxing a list of their top 10 prospects to the Twins with a note reading, "Take your pick." They should be ponying up a contract Santana can't refuse. I feel bad for new Twins general manager Bill Smith. He already has watched Torii Hunter and Silva leave, and now he is facing a gaggle of GMs struck by a bizarre fit of restraint, even though Smith is trying to move a player for whom teams should be mortgaging the farm (system). Smith is being patient, hoping that, as the offseason dwindles, one of the bidders will crack and change its offer. In other words, now that the holidays are over, Smith is hoping some team will come to its senses and realize he is offering Johan Santana. From Sporting news

finally a Santana is in the prime of his career. Even if the trading team has to eat the last 2 years of so-so, this is Johan 'Freaking' Santana. The premier lefty in the game who averages more than a K per inning. This guy is gold for 3 to 5 years.This is like Sandy Koufax on the market and being offered a Maury Willis and junk.There's a reason he hasn't been traded yet. Twin's GM Billly Smith is not going to start his career as the guy who gave up Santana for junk.Hopefully, Santana lowers his extra years demand and can sign with the Twins, and the BoSox can keep being the BoSox and the Yankees can keep being the Yankees.

I'm not saying I wouldn't make a deal for Santana...however how good has the Yanks track record been on big name players in the past few years? Giambi, Mussina,Pavano,Wright,Kevin Brown,Johnny Damon, Roger Clemens(this past time), (I know I'm missing one or two more) all have either not lived to expectations or just plain sucked. (Mussina can be given some slack...but my recollection of his signing was that he'd finally win 20 games and with a potent offense behind him be dominant). Most of those were FA signings. Then you factor in that you are being asked to give up not one...but two high level pitching prospects who have already seen big league action and it's no wonder why fans are a little gun shy.

I'm a Minnesota guy. Trust me, Santana is not Mussina, Pavano, Wright, Brown, or Clemens. You would be getting everything you've ever wanted. Dude is ridiculous.

 

[wilked]

For those saying 'just add Lester in the deal with Ellsbury', this is from Gammons' chat yesterday

One of the most interesting thing about the winter meetings was that John Farrell was passionate about his case for Jon Lester becomming their equivalent of a young Pettitte. His velocity should be back to where it was 2 yrs. ago come ST. His breaking ball and changeup improved dramatically in the postseason. And if you go back and look at DVD of Game 4 and watch his presence given the opportunity to clinch the WS, it's remarkable. After the Cleveland series, the Indians front office, coaches, and player personnel people had a meeting and it was unanimously agreed that after Josh Beckett, the best pitcher on the Red Sox was Lester. That doesn't include Papelbon, different category.

 

[Darth Cheney]

For those saying 'just add Lester in the deal with Ellsbury', this is from Gammons' chat yesterday

One of the most interesting thing about the winter meetings was that John Farrell was passionate about his case for Jon Lester becomming their equivalent of a young Pettitte. His velocity should be back to where it was 2 yrs. ago come ST. His breaking ball and changeup improved dramatically in the postseason. And if you go back and look at DVD of Game 4 and watch his presence given the opportunity to clinch the WS, it's remarkable. After the Cleveland series, the Indians front office, coaches, and player personnel people had a meeting and it was unanimously agreed that after Josh Beckett, the best pitcher on the Red Sox was Lester. That doesn't include Papelbon, different category.

But it's Johan Santana.

 

[wilked]

For those saying 'just add Lester in the deal with Ellsbury', this is from Gammons' chat yesterday

One of the most interesting thing about the winter meetings was that John Farrell was passionate about his case for Jon Lester becomming their equivalent of a young Pettitte. His velocity should be back to where it was 2 yrs. ago come ST. His breaking ball and changeup improved dramatically in the postseason. And if you go back and look at DVD of Game 4 and watch his presence given the opportunity to clinch the WS, it's remarkable. After the Cleveland series, the Indians front office, coaches, and player personnel people had a meeting and it was unanimously agreed that after Josh Beckett, the best pitcher on the Red Sox was Lester. That doesn't include Papelbon, different category.

But it's Johan Santana.

Mught as well throw in Buchholz too then...

 

[Alias]

Heyman yesterday on M&tMD:

Mets offer to the Twins: take ANY four MINOR leaguers.

 

[Alias]

Today's NY Times:

Perhaps the most significant story in a busy Yankees off-season has been the emergence of Hank Steinbrenner at the top of the team’s hierarchy. Steinbrenner, the senior vice president, has been outspoken on potential player moves, but he cannot and has not acted unilaterally.

Hank’s brother, Hal Steinbrenner, is just as powerful as a successor to their father, the principal owner George Steinbrenner, who is essentially retired. Hal Steinbrenner’s primary responsibility is to oversee the Yankees’ finances, and he is reluctant to add another huge contract.

According to several people who have spoken to the brothers recently,that is the crux of the debate in the organization over whether to trade for Johan Santana of the Minnesota Twins. Both Steinbrenners want the team to keep winning. Hal Steinbrenner would try to do it with the existing payroll of roughly $200 million. Hank is more inclined to add Santana, largely to keep him away from the rival Boston Red Sox.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I can't believe this is still going on...

Over 2 months now...

 

[Gopher State]

I just realized there’s only six weeks until pitchers and catchers report. What an offseason…

No major Johan Santana news, but reports elsewhere pretty much gist with what has been written here recently, that the Yanks, Red Sox and Mets are the three main teams involved in the sweepstakes, that the Mets won’t have to give up Jose Reyes, the Yanks won’t have to give up Phillip Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the same package and different trade models remain in play with the Red Sox.

While there were some suggestions that the Yanks had pulled their deal off the table and were backing off, indications I received from the Twins were that the Yanks remained clearly in the picture. This story backs that up. It always helps when Hank Steinbrenner speaks up:

“I think the Twins realize our offer is the best one,” Steinbrenner said Wednesday in a telephone interview with the New York Daily News. “I feel confident they’re not going to trade him before checking with us one last time and I think they think we’ve already made the best offer.”

Steinbrenner said the offer “does not include two of the three young pitchers” - Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy, from a group that also includes untouchable Joba Chamberlain - “but it’s still the best one. And let’s face it, we’re the best able to handle the kind of contract (extension) Santana will be after.”

The Boston Globe also had heard the same things we’ve been hearing: That different trade models: One led by Jacoby Ellsbury and another led by Jon Lester, remain in play.

I’m sorry that I’ve been unable to nail down all elements of each trade package. The best thing I read today was Steinbrenner suggesting that he’d like to get something done in two weeks. I can’t wait for this to end.

Anyway, here are some other Twins tidbits, courtesy of GM Bill Smith:

Jesse Crain, on the comeback trail following shoulder surgery in May, has been throwing some and is headed to Fort Myers, Fla. today to continue his rehab/recovery. Still, the Twins don’t know when Crain will be able to contribute, as coming back from a torn labrum and rotator cuff isn’t easy.

Francisco Liriano, who is expected to contribute at some point this season, is expected to travel to Fort Myers sometime this month to continue his comeback from Tommy John surgery. Everything to this point has gone well.

Juan Rincon, who wasn’t part of the Matt Garza-Delmon Young trade with the Rays because of concerns about his elbow, has been pitching for Lara of the Venezuelan winter league. In ten innings at the end of the season, Rincon had a 1.80 ERA on four hits, seven walks and nine strikeouts. He’s expected to pitch for Lara in the postseason, which began Wednesday.

Latest from the Minneapolis Star and Tribune

 

[Gopher State]

Steinbrenner 'still leaning' toward making pitch for Santana

AP) — The New York Yankees are still discussing whether to pursue a trade for Minnesota Twins ace Johan Santana, and senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner would like to make a deal.

"Nothing is really decided at this point," Steinbrenner said Friday night outside Legends Field at the team's spring training complex. "I'm still leaning towards doing it. There's others leaning not to do it. There are some others that are leaning to do it also. Disagreements within the organization. Nothing major, but just different opinions. I've changed my opinion a couple times."

Right-hander Phil Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera would likely be part of a three-player package needed to obtain Santana, a two-time Cy Young Award winner who can become a free agent after this season.

The Yankees made an offer to Minnesota for Santana earlier this offseason, then said they had pulled out of trade talks.

Steinbrenner said ultimately the final decision will made by ownership, but the opinion of general manager Brian Cashman is important.

Latest news on Santana, looks like the Yankees are very close to making this deal.

 

[David Yudkin]

Latest news on Santana, looks like the Yankees are very close to making this deal.

Last I heard, the Yanks may want to make this deal but it's the same deal the Twins weren't ready to make 6 weeks ago.

 

[shadyridr]

Steinbrenner 'still leaning' toward making pitch for Santana AP) — The New York Yankees are still discussing whether to pursue a trade for Minnesota Twins ace Johan Santana, and senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner would like to make a deal."Nothing is really decided at this point," Steinbrenner said Friday night outside Legends Field at the team's spring training complex. "I'm still leaning towards doing it. There's others leaning not to do it. There are some others that are leaning to do it also. Disagreements within the organization. Nothing major, but just different opinions. I've changed my opinion a couple times."Right-hander Phil Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera would likely be part of a three-player package needed to obtain Santana, a two-time Cy Young Award winner who can become a free agent after this season.The Yankees made an offer to Minnesota for Santana earlier this offseason, then said they had pulled out of trade talks.Steinbrenner said ultimately the final decision will made by ownership, but the opinion of general manager Brian Cashman is important.Latest news on Santana, looks like the Yankees are very close to making this deal.

HANK SHUT THE HELL UP

 

[boom king]

Steinbrenner 'still leaning' toward making pitch for Santana AP) — The New York Yankees are still discussing whether to pursue a trade for Minnesota Twins ace Johan Santana, and senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner would like to make a deal."Nothing is really decided at this point," Steinbrenner said Friday night outside Legends Field at the team's spring training complex. "I'm still leaning towards doing it. There's others leaning not to do it. There are some others that are leaning to do it also. Disagreements within the organization. Nothing major, but just different opinions. I've changed my opinion a couple times."Right-hander Phil Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera would likely be part of a three-player package needed to obtain Santana, a two-time Cy Young Award winner who can become a free agent after this season.The Yankees made an offer to Minnesota for Santana earlier this offseason, then said they had pulled out of trade talks.Steinbrenner said ultimately the final decision will made by ownership, but the opinion of general manager Brian Cashman is important.Latest news on Santana, looks like the Yankees are very close to making this deal.

HANK SHUT THE HELL UP

Im already dislike this guy more than george.

 

[datonn]

Is it just me, or do Yanks and Red Sox fans need to get over themselves?!

"The Twins will take whatever we want to give them...and they'll say 'thank you sir, may I have another?!' for good measure."

People don't dislike the Yankees or Red Sox, per se (well, outside of Boston and New York). They DESPIZE fans and management of said squads for having the above attitude.

BTW, Al Jefferson and those #1 picks will be > than Kevin Garnett come 2010 (maybe even 2009)...but at least Boston has a chance at a banner or two over the next couple of seasons. Wolves were going nowhere anyway, but Al Jefferson is the BIZ-ZOMB! Thank you, Boston Celtics....well, except for that TERRIBLE former Celtic turned GM of ours....

 

[shadyridr]

Hank Steinbrenner said Friday that he's "leaning towards doing" a Johan Santana trade with the Twins.

Get it over with then. "Nothing is really decided at this point," Steinbrenner blabbed. "I’m still leaning towards doing it. There’s others leaning not to do it. There are some others that are leaning to do it also. Disagreements within the organization. Nothing major, but just different opinions. I’ve changed my opinion a couple times." Steinbrenner made it perfectly clear that it's his call. "I always told (GM Brian Cashman", 'I’m going to make the final decisions because when you’re the owner you should.' He is the general manager, and he has the right to talk me out of it and he has talked me out of some things." Jan. 4 - 10:33 pm et

 

[wilked]

Is it just me, or do Yanks and Red Sox fans need to get over themselves?!"The Twins will take whatever we want to give them...and they'll say 'thank you sir, may I have another?!' for good measure." People don't dislike the Yankees or Red Sox, per se (well, outside of Boston and New York). They DESPIZE fans and management of said squads for having the above attitude.

Please link the Red Sox quotes saying that...oh wait you can'tHank does not manage the Red Sox...

 

[wilked]

Latest from BP's insider John Perrotto:

It still appears Boston's offer of center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury, shortstop Jed Lowrie, pitcher Justin Masterson and a fourth prospect to be determined is the most likely to get Santana. The Mets are also trying hard to trade for prospects that they could package in a deal for Santana. Whoever gets Santana will have to pony up seven years and $140 million for a contract extension.

 

[datonn]

wilked,

You know what I meant. This thread was started because the Minnesota Twins might be moving the best left-handed pitcher in baseball over money, and it devolved into 15-20+ pages of Red Sox vs. Yankees.

Anybody remember that Saul Steinberg “View of the World” illustration for the March 29, 1976 cover of The New Yorker magazine?! Might as well apply to Boston/Massachusetts as well, since it runs to the West of them in the State of New York as well.

It is disgusting. Watching DAYS of "will he or won't he?" (related to Alex Rodriguez) on ESPN, WEEKS of New England Patriots garbage on ESPN, etc, honestly makes me just turn the TV to the National Geographic Channel or History Channel. I think people in Boston or New York actually think that the rest of us are supposed to care about what they are up to...and/or that we are "jealous" of what they have. Last time I checked, the Twins have as many World Series titles and appearances as the Red Sox over the past 20 years....only they did it with a TINY fraction of the financial resources. That's baseball, that was fun....NOT what it has become (who can spend the most and buy a division/league/Series).

Baseball for me effectively ended in 1994, when greed forced there to be no World Series. I'm not someone wearing my heart on my sleeve as a tried-and-true Twins fan either, as I really haven't followed baseball very closely for 12-13 seasons. I just got sick to DEATH of watching greed and a SEVERE imbalance in resources ruin one of America's greatest past times. Seeing Red Sox vs. Yankees take over this thread is Reminder #877 of why baseball has become less and less relevant...at least in my own life.

 

[wilked]

I hear what you are saying, but here's the facts:

Santana will command 140 million. There are only a handful of teams that can afford that. Of those, there are only a few who have the prospects to entice the Twins. Yankees and Red Sox are two of those (Mets being the 3rd). Frankly I hope he goes to the Mets, and the Red Sox compete with the homegrown kids instead (and I think Yankees fans feel the same way).

It the Red Sox didn't spend what they do they could not consistently compete against the Yankees. No team can, frankly, without spending some money. Sure, you can put together teams that can make 5 year runs, but then you will probably have 5 year downturns too. Boston expects the Red Sox to compete each year, and I think it is better to put the dollars into the team then the owner's pockets.

That said, Yankees and Red Sox are both having a resurgence of focusing on home grown players, and you will find that fans much prefer to cheer for players they have followed and watched come up the ranks. Our views are not all that different, beyond following teams on different ends of the spectrum. If Minny had a fanbase that put the kind of money that NY/Boston put into the team, what would you want the owners to do with the money?

As for the media being Northeast biased, they put a product out that gets the most viewers / readers...not sure what more you want them to do?

 

[datonn]

Thanks wilked!

Minnesota DOES have a strong fan base...as people from North Dakota and Montana to central Wisconsin, Iowa to southern Manitoba/Ontario, will road-trip down to Minneapolis to watch the team play. All Minnesota doesn't have that Boston/New York has is:

1. The same population base to pull from. If New York, as an example, had an average of $50/resident spending money on the Yankees (some spending thousands, many spending $0), they are going to have 10-20 times the money to use on their roster and stadium.

2. The same $$$ coming in related to broadcasting contracts. Directly related to #1, the Twins will N-E-V-E-R have the kind of money that the Yankees, Mets or BoSox will. That puts the Twins at a severe competitive disadvantage before Opening Day every season...though I personally am okay with that...as I would rather see Minnesotans spending their $$$ on FAR more important things than baseball.

3. An owner with DEEP, DEEP pockets and a priority of winning being placed ahead of having the business be profitable (or hopefully above break-even).

The NFL is 10-times the professional sports league that MLB is, and a salary cap has a LOT to do with that. Can you imagine Green Bay, Jacksonville or Cleveland/Minnesota ever even sniffing the playoffs without one? Every year, fans of 32 teams have hope and a reason to care beyond team loyalty. In MLB, well-over half the teams' fans all-but know in January that barring a miracle, their team's seasons will be over by around July. Baseball had a chance to "fix" that several years ago and decided not to. That's why baseball has become all-but-irrelevant in my life, as well as the lives of hundreds of thousands (millions?) of other people out there as a result. The only reason for even watching MLB baseball at all anymore is hoping beyond hope that the teams (and their fans) who have ruined the sport get to taste a little defeat in October/November. If it came down to Red Sox versus Yankees though? Go Sox...as it was the Yankees that started baseball down its ugly path.

 

[Bojang0301]

wilked,

You know what I meant. This thread was started because the Minnesota Twins might be moving the best left-handed pitcher in baseball over money, and it devolved into 15-20+ pages of Red Sox vs. Yankees.

Anybody remember that Saul Steinberg “View of the World” illustration for the March 29, 1976 cover of The New Yorker magazine?! Might as well apply to Boston/Massachusetts as well, since it runs to the West of them in the State of New York as well.

It is disgusting. Watching DAYS of "will he or won't he?" (related to Alex Rodriguez) on ESPN, WEEKS of New England Patriots garbage on ESPN, etc, honestly makes me just turn the TV to the National Geographic Channel or History Channel. I think people in Boston or New York actually think that the rest of us are supposed to care about what they are up to...and/or that we are "jealous" of what they have. Last time I checked, the Twins have as many World Series titles and appearances as the Red Sox over the past 20 years....only they did it with a TINY fraction of the financial resources. That's baseball, that was fun....NOT what it has become (who can spend the most and buy a division/league/Series).

Baseball for me effectively ended in 1994, when greed forced there to be no World Series. I'm not someone wearing my heart on my sleeve as a tried-and-true Twins fan either, as I really haven't followed baseball very closely for 12-13 seasons. I just got sick to DEATH of watching greed and a SEVERE imbalance in resources ruin one of America's greatest past times. Seeing Red Sox vs. Yankees take over this thread is Reminder #877 of why baseball has become less and less relevant...at least in my own life.

What the balls are you talking about? Baseball has always been that way. That's why there was a Black Sox scandal and why there was a Curse of the Bambino... greed and money. Babe Ruth made more than the president when he was past his prime. Get over yourself dude this has always been an impure sport from corked bats to spit balls to spiked cleats to racism to greed to steroidsto gambline... and I still love it all and take the good with the bad.

 

[Darth Cheney]

Thanks wilked!

Minnesota DOES have a strong fan base...as people from North Dakota and Montana to central Wisconsin, Iowa to southern Manitoba/Ontario, will road-trip down to Minneapolis to watch the team play. All Minnesota doesn't have that Boston/New York has is:

1. The same population base to pull from. If New York, as an example, had an average of $50/resident spending money on the Yankees (some spending thousands, many spending $0), they are going to have 10-20 times the money to use on their roster and stadium.

2. The same $$$ coming in related to broadcasting contracts. Directly related to #1, the Twins will N-E-V-E-R have the kind of money that the Yankees, Mets or BoSox will. That puts the Twins at a severe competitive disadvantage before Opening Day every season...though I personally am okay with that...as I would rather see Minnesotans spending their $$$ on FAR more important things than baseball.

3. An owner with DEEP, DEEP pockets and a priority of winning being placed ahead of having the business be profitable (or hopefully above break-even).

The NFL is 10-times the professional sports league that MLB is, and a salary cap has a LOT to do with that. Can you imagine Green Bay, Jacksonville or Cleveland/Minnesota ever even sniffing the playoffs without one? Every year, fans of 32 teams have hope and a reason to care beyond team loyalty. In MLB, well-over half the teams' fans all-but know in January that barring a miracle, their team's seasons will be over by around July. Baseball had a chance to "fix" that several years ago and decided not to. That's why baseball has become all-but-irrelevant in my life, as well as the lives of hundreds of thousands (millions?) of other people out there as a result. The only reason for even watching MLB baseball at all anymore is hoping beyond hope that the teams (and their fans) who have ruined the sport get to taste a little defeat in October/November. If it came down to Red Sox versus Yankees though? Go Sox...as it was the Yankees that started baseball down its ugly path.

A couple of points..1) Baseball is experiencing a steady growth over the past few years. People aren't leaving it.....they are coming back to it.

2) The parity of the NFL isn't all that it is cracked up to be. While one can argue about the merits of success in Green Bay, there is a combination of tepid mediocrity combined with a gross imbalance in the league that has come about with "parity". While we're at it, which of the two sports has had more different teams win its championship since 2000? Which sport has seen a greater percentage of different teams making their playoffs? It seems in most years in baseball a team comes out of nowhere to seriously compete for the World Series championship.....and let's not even get into the salary cap issue in the NBA...which has in fact destroyed parity and has made it near impossible for a team to dig out of a bad situation.

3) I understand the need for a salary cap...and as of right now, the luxury tax in baseball is the beginnings of one. Personally , I feel that the luxury tax should be steeper in an effort to discourage rampant spending. There are two points to this though. First, how are we supposed to tell the owners of these franchises how to re-invest their money...particularly when the sport isn't struggling and is in fact doing better than it has ever done. If profits, attendence, television rights and Nielsens were significantly down....I can understand that. But they are not. Secondly, how can the cap supporters scream for a cap without first addressing the issue of teams not spending their luxury tax windfalls on their team? Do you think it's fair that a team pays into the luxury tax for the supposed good of the sport only to see an owner who receives money pocket it instead of re-investing it into the team (either in the form of FA players, scouting ,minor leagues or International Baseball Academies)?

4) I feel for the people in Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Kansas City as they are old baseball towns who are struggling.

EDITED FOR A COUPLE OF MORE POINTS:

5) This isn't a "Let's lament for the plight of the Twins fans as they have to deal with Johan Santana being traded" thread but a rumor mill thread....so of course the topic is going to be about where Johan goes.

6) I think that the fans of the Sox and Yanks who post in this message board regularly outnumber those of all the other teams combined, so of course everything that is not specifically not about the Yanks or Sox is going to have a Yanks/Sox spin on it.

 

[datonn]

6) I think that the fans of the Sox and Yanks who post in this message board regularly outnumber those of all the other teams combined, so of course everything that is not specifically not about the Yanks or Sox is going to have a Yanks/Sox spin on it.

Or they talk the most or the loudest. But Nor'Easters don't tend to be more self-absorbed and self-centered than most of the rest of the country though...heavens no! :X Personally, I just hope the Twins take either the Yankees or the Red Sox (or the Mets, or ???) to the cleaners with whatever deal they make. NOT as a Twins fan, again...baseball has all-but been dead to me since 1994, but to make sure those big-market teams have to over-spend in free agency to replenish the holes they might create in their farm systems as a result. People ARE coming back to baseball too, I'll agree with that. Baseball lost a LOT of people though after 1994 (you've got to give me that)....and I know about 18-20 other formerly-rabid baseball fans personally who have yet to set foot in a ballpark or buy any MLB gear since. I gotta believe there are many, MANY other people out there like that too?! :X

 

[datonn]

What the balls are you talking about? Baseball has always been that way. That's why there was a Black Sox scandal and why there was a Curse of the Bambino... greed and money. Babe Ruth made more than the president when he was past his prime. Get over yourself dude this has always been an impure sport from corked bats to spit balls to spiked cleats to racism to greed to steroidsto gambline... and I still love it all and take the good with the bad.

You don't think it got much, MUCH worse right around the time that Reggie Jackson went to The Bronx? Yeah, money and greed has been a problem since the dawn of humanity! Specifically related to baseball, what happened in the 1970s really accelerated that downward-spiral, at least IMHO.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Steinbrenner 'still leaning' toward making pitch for Santana AP) — The New York Yankees are still discussing whether to pursue a trade for Minnesota Twins ace Johan Santana, and senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner would like to make a deal."Nothing is really decided at this point," Steinbrenner said Friday night outside Legends Field at the team's spring training complex. "I'm still leaning towards doing it. There's others leaning not to do it. There are some others that are leaning to do it also. Disagreements within the organization. Nothing major, but just different opinions. I've changed my opinion a couple times."Right-hander Phil Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera would likely be part of a three-player package needed to obtain Santana, a two-time Cy Young Award winner who can become a free agent after this season.The Yankees made an offer to Minnesota for Santana earlier this offseason, then said they had pulled out of trade talks.Steinbrenner said ultimately the final decision will made by ownership, but the opinion of general manager Brian Cashman is important.Latest news on Santana, looks like the Yankees are very close to making this deal.

HANK SHUT THE HELL UP

Shady, my thoughts exactly! Talking is NEVER good in these situations. What a complete donkey

 

[ooofffaaa]

I see Cashman sitting at a poker table with his buddy Hank behind him yelling "Wow, you have 2 aces!"

Hankenstein is going to be fun in NY.

 

[Alias]

from ESPN Insider:

Where will Johan Santana be traded, and when will he be traded?Santana may be the best pitcher on the planet, but there is a distinct lack of enthusiasm among Boston and Yankees officials to add more players to the offers they have made to Minnesota. The Mets would love to have Santana, but Twins' talent evaluators view the Mets' prospects as being dramatically inferior to those of the Red Sox and Yankees.Either the Twins will have to embrace the idea that they will accept less than they wanted for Santana, or they'll open the season with him. I don't know where he's going to land, but the guess here is -- and a guess is all it is -- that he eventually lands with Boston, for a package built around Jacoby Ellsbury.

 

[pigskin pimp]

From the Twin's Star Tribune beat writer:

After weeks of speculation that the Yankees and Red Sox were the two favorites to land Johan Santana, the Twins could wind up shipping him to the Mets.

Ultimately, the Mets might be the best fit.

They have the greatest need. They have the money to sign Santana. And they play in the National League, where he's less likely to haunt the Twins.

The players the Mets would send the Twins aren't household names. There's no Jose Reyes or David Wright. The offers aren't perfect.

But it's become abundantly clear the Twins won't be able to make the perfect trade here. Not for a two-time Cy Young winner. Not for a lefthander who is 93-44 for his career and won't turn 29 until March.

No team is going to give the Twins everything they need when that team must turn around and hand Santana a five- or six-year contract extension worth at least $20 million per year.

According to people with knowledge of the discussions, the Mets have offered top pitching prospect Deolis Guerra, along with center fielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Kevin Mulvey and Phil Humber.

The Twins like those players. They've told the Mets they'd have a done deal if New York would add prized outfield prospect Fernando Martinez.

Even then, it wouldn't be a perfect trade.

It would give the Twins a big stack of potential, with few guarantees. Consider:

• Gomez, 22, could step in as the Twins' everyday center fielder next year. He is faster than Jose Reyes, the All-Star shortstop the Mets have made untouchable. But scouts say Gomez also has trouble hitting a slider. In four minor league seasons, he has 250 strikeouts in 1,251 at-bats and a meager .336 on-base percentage.

• Guerra is a 6-5 righthander who signed with the Mets out of Venezuela for $700,000 in 2006. He pitched in the Class A Florida State League last season and posted a 4.01 ERA -- at age 18.

• Martinez was recently named the Mets' top prospect by Baseball America. Guerra was No. 2. While scouts are skeptical about Gomez's ability to hit, they are more confident in Martinez, who climbed to Class AA last year at age 18.

• Mulvey, 22, and Humber, 25, are both considered prospects, though neither currently projects better than a No. 4 starter.

That's a problem.

The Twins already have bid goodbye to Matt Garza and Carlos Silva this offseason. If they subtract Santana, the remaining starters would be Scott Baker, Boof Bonser, Kevin Slowey, Glen Perkins, Nick Blackburn and Francisco Liriano, who is coming off elbow surgery.

"There's no question our starting pitching is going to be very young," General Manager Bill Smith said Wednesday. "We've lost two good guys, and we certainly have our eyes open looking for starting pitching."

The Yankees have offered one of the game's top pitching prospects in Phil Hughes. Beyond him, however, the Twins aren't so sure.

They wonder if center fielder Melky Cabrera would struggle when taken out of the Yankees lineup. He'd probably be pitched to differently, which could cause him to struggle.

The Red Sox have offered lefthander Jon Lester and center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury. But not in the same deal.

The Twins like infield prospect Jed Lowrie, who has been offered in both proposals. Again, these offers would address one need -- adding position prospects or a quality starting pitcher -- not both.

For now, this remains one big staring match. The Twins are waiting for some team to blink. In the end, it just might be the Mets.

Joe Christensen • jchristensen@startribune.com

 

[shadyridr]

What happened to the Twins wanting major league ready players?

 

[gadkins]

http://riveraveblues.com/

While speaking to some of his trusted veteran Yankees on other matters, senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner also has sought input about a possible deal for Johan Santana.

According to the majority opinion of his players, the team doesn’t need to make a blockbuster deal with the Minnesota Twins to put them over the top. “Nobody would say that we don’t want Santana, but, yeah, they’re pretty darn confident in what we can do this year [as is],” Steinbrenner said during a phone conversation Tuesday…

“We’re still throwing it around and talking about it. It may happen, or it may not happen,” Steinbrenner said. “But a few of our best players seem very confident in the way that things stand right now.”

 

[ooofffaaa]

What happened to the Twins wanting major league ready players?

The Yankees are not the only team to have major league ready players.Looks like the Red Sox & Yankees were only concerned about keeping Santana away from each other.

 

[shadyridr]

What happened to the Twins wanting major league ready players?

The Yankees are not the only team to have major league ready players.Looks like the Red Sox & Yankees were only concerned about keeping Santana away from each other.

I wouldnt call any of those Mets prospects major league ready

 

[ooofffaaa]

What happened to the Twins wanting major league ready players?

The Yankees are not the only team to have major league ready players.Looks like the Red Sox & Yankees were only concerned about keeping Santana away from each other.

I wouldnt call any of those Mets prospects major league ready

Gomez played last year. And although he's young we can only hope he comes near the talent level of future Hall of Famer Melky Cabrera.Edit to add:

 

[Deranged Hermit]

From the Twin's Star Tribune beat writer:

According to people with knowledge of the discussions, the Mets have offered top pitching prospect Deolis Guerra, along with center fielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Kevin Mulvey and Phil Humber.

The Twins like those players. They've told the Mets they'd have a done deal if New York would add prized outfield prospect Fernando Martinez.

If this were true, I gotta believe this deal would be done already. A pitching staff with Santana, Pedro, Maine and Perez at 1-4 is going to win a ton 'o games.

 

[Sammy3469]

From the Twin's Star Tribune beat writer:

According to people with knowledge of the discussions, the Mets have offered top pitching prospect Deolis Guerra, along with center fielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Kevin Mulvey and Phil Humber.

The Twins like those players. They've told the Mets they'd have a done deal if New York would add prized outfield prospect Fernando Martinez.

If this were true, I gotta believe this deal would be done already. A pitching staff with Santana, Pedro, Maine and Perez at 1-4 is going to win a ton 'o games.

Put it this way, its not the Mets holding that deal up. Calling Gomez ML is pushing it too. He has more upside than Melky, but he's a horrible hitter right now.

 

[RBM]

From the Twin's Star Tribune beat writer:

After weeks of speculation that the Yankees and Red Sox were the two favorites to land Johan Santana, the Twins could wind up shipping him to the Mets.

Ultimately, the Mets might be the best fit.

They have the greatest need. They have the money to sign Santana. And they play in the National League, where he's less likely to haunt the Twins.

GET IT DONE OMAR

 

[Anarchy99]

The Mets prospects are really no more than that. They are a bunch of guys requiring a lot of wishful thinking. I can't see the Twins taking that package, as they would almost be giving Santana away at that point.

 

[Koya]

From the Twin's Star Tribune beat writer:

According to people with knowledge of the discussions, the Mets have offered top pitching prospect Deolis Guerra, along with center fielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Kevin Mulvey and Phil Humber.

The Twins like those players. They've told the Mets they'd have a done deal if New York would add prized outfield prospect Fernando Martinez.

If this were true, I gotta believe this deal would be done already. A pitching staff with Santana, Pedro, Maine and Perez at 1-4 is going to win a ton 'o games.

Put it this way, its not the Mets holding that deal up. Calling Gomez ML is pushing it too. He has more upside than Melky, but he's a horrible hitter right now.

I wouldn't call Gomez a horrible hitter by any stretch. He is only major league ready on a team building for the future though - he is not someoen to plug in and expect to be part of a championship (or playoff) run. I heard the debate on radio this morning about not wanting to lose Martinez because apparantly he has tremendous skills.

STOP F'N AROUND AND GIVE THEM WHATEVER THEY WANT ALREADY, if that doesnt mean Reyes. Even if it DOES mean Reyes the mets are likely better off with Santana, but that is a dead issue.

 

[Captain Hook]

If there is a possible Mets - Twins deal for Santana, it is certainly NOT Minaya holding it up. I would have to think it's the Twins playing it against another team

 

[ooofffaaa]

The Mets prospects are really no more than that. They are a bunch of guys requiring a lot of wishful thinking. I can't see the Twins taking that package, as they would almost be giving Santana away at that point.

Everybody keeps trashing the Mets propsects. Here is a different take on the situation . . .At his blog, AaronGleeman.com, well-respected writer and Twins fan Aaron Gleeman has the following to say about potentially trading Johan Santana…

“Monday in this space I discussed the strength of a Phil Hughes-led offer from the Yankees, but a Mets package that includes Martinez, Guerra, Gomez, and Mulvey would blow that out of the water.”

http://www.aarongleeman.com/2008_01_06_bas...382219820895173