The Johan Santana rumor mill (1 Viewer)

[Sammy3469]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

The deals are very good when you consider the dollars. If you are Minnesota you get all the players and you get roughly 10 mil to play with as well.

except 13 million on Santana is probably the best way you can spend that 13 million given today's FA market.

They should take that $$ and turn around and trade for Haren...Net D Young, Haren and 1/2 of the players from the Santana trade for Santana and Garza

I guess, but I think any Haren package would take at least 2/3rds to 3/4th of the Santana package.

 

[Funkley]

Twins may hold onto Santana....as of 10 minutes ago:

1:08 p.m. ET • Buster Olney is hearing whispers that the Twins might decide to hold onto Johan Santana. With a healthy Francisco Liriano alongside Santana in the rotation, that would be a fearsome 1-2 punch. If the Twins do some big things in '08, they could find a way to re-sign Santana.

Wonderful....lose him for nothing too.

Or they could pony up the money and sign him. Give him the two extra years at 20M a piece and have an ace on your staff for 6 years.You know that once he signs this big contract, in 2009, the Yankees will just throw 30M a year at CC or another pitcher.I remember when Puckett became the first 3M a year player, that became a cheap contract the very next year.

See your point but Oooffff....that's a lot of scrilla's for a pitcher coming off his worst season and with his workload. I don't think it's coincidence that the Twins want to move him now.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

The deals are very good when you consider the dollars. If you are Minnesota you get all the players and you get roughly 10 mil to play with as well.

except 13 million on Santana is probably the best way you can spend that 13 million given today's FA market.

They should take that $$ and turn around and trade for Haren...Net D Young, Haren and 1/2 of the players from the Santana trade for Santana and Garza

I guess, but I think any Haren package would take at least 2/3rds to 3/4th of the Santana package.

the 1/2 was really meant to be 1 or 2, not necessarily one half...still wouldn't be a bad haul...

 

[TitusIII]

Unless they can get the best prospects from whatever team they trade with, they shouldn't(and will not, imo) trade Santana. If Liriano can return to form(not likely) they have the staff to win it all in 2008.

 

[Funkley]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it. While he still allows too many hits, he pitched better last year for the Yankees then any of his final years with them. He used both sides of the plate much more effectively. Pettitte gives them a very solid starter.

Artificial imo. He can't keep posting 1.45 whips and still keep that era down. He'll win a lot of 6-5 games and that makes him valuable but he's a long way from being effective anymore.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it. While he still allows too many hits, he pitched better last year for the Yankees then any of his final years with them. He used both sides of the plate much more effectively. Pettitte gives them a very solid starter.

Artificial imo. He can't keep posting 1.45 whips and still keep that era down. He'll win a lot of 6-5 games and that makes him valuable but he's a long way from being effective anymore.

The biggest value to the Yanks will be in his helping the younger pitchers adapt, and in eating up 200+ innings, meaning the youngsters won't have to pitch as many high leverage innings this season...

 

[Funkley]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it. While he still allows too many hits, he pitched better last year for the Yankees then any of his final years with them. He used both sides of the plate much more effectively. Pettitte gives them a very solid starter.

Artificial imo. He can't keep posting 1.45 whips and still keep that era down. He'll win a lot of 6-5 games and that makes him valuable but he's a long way from being effective anymore.

The biggest value to the Yanks will be in his helping the younger pitchers adapt, and in eating up 200+ innings, meaning the youngsters won't have to pitch as many high leverage innings this season...

Good point.

 

[the moops]

Unless they can get the best prospects from whatever team they trade with, they shouldn't(and will not, imo) trade Santana. If Liriano can return to form(not likely) they have the staff to win it all in 2008.

The Twins have a near zero shot to win it all next year.

 

[[icon]]

Red Sox fans have to be the most delusional people on the planet. Please, any of you, explain to me how ANY and EVERY scenario makes Theo a genius and the Yankees fools. It's amazing how you can spin anything into "Theos a genius and the Yankees suck", absolutely amazing.

While your over-dramatization is comical, Do we really need to look at the results in the last 4-5 years since Theo has been GM? Theo was hired before the 2003 season2003 - ALCS2004 -World Series Title2005 - ALDS(Theo take hiatus for most of offseason)2006 - Didn't make playoffs2007 - World Series TitleSo since taking the helm before the 2003 season Theo has led the Sox to the playoffs every year that he had the reins for the offseason... including 2 World Series titles. Not too shabby for a delusional bunch of also-rans.

Disgraceful to not make the playoffs with that payroll!

 

[pigskin pimp]

I'm tired of all the BoSox and Yankee negotiations.

Let's get the Dodgers back into talks. Heard that they're looking at Blaylock. That could open open LaRoche and a Billingsly/Kershaw package (even though Kemp is the guy I'd like).

Heck, I'd rather the Twins were dealing with the Angels for a Wood/Willtis/ESantana type of package.

 

[[icon]]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it.

Oh jesus....

 

[[icon]]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it. While he still allows too many hits, he pitched better last year for the Yankees then any of his final years with them. He used both sides of the plate much more effectively. Pettitte gives them a very solid starter.

Artificial imo. He can't keep posting 1.45 whips and still keep that era down. He'll win a lot of 6-5 games and that makes him valuable but he's a long way from being effective anymore.

 

[Reaper]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it.

Oh jesus....

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I really haven't changed my opinion here. But, I'm reading this thread after being in the FFA looking at all the college football stuff going on. I wonder....

This thread is pretty much a glaring example of what baseball haters complain about with baseball's economic model, but I wonder which anti-baseball guys also love college football, which has a model pretty much equal to MLB). Would probably be an insteresting discussion.

 

[Alias]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

 

[Workhorse]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

That should read "A Red Sox scout says"...

I'd highly doubt that Ellsbury develops 25+ HR power.

I still like the kid an awful lot. In many ways, he's a young Kenny Lofton with better range and a better attitude. He's going to be a valuable player.

 

[Alias]

Suzyy.Q thinks Ellsbury > Sizemore

 

[Funkley]

Quiet today...............too quiet.

 

[wilked]

S, what a friggin blowhard Hank is. I wonder if ol' George is going to have a talk with him.

Interesting to watch the glaring contrast between the way the Yankees and Red Sox are handling this... It will also be quite interesting to see what comes of the tampering.

 

[Sammy3469]

Quiet today...............too quiet.

First day of meetings....I think teams are still feeling each other out especially now that it looks like Bedard is also on the market. I think if someone has gotten 72 hour rights, it would have leaked.

 

[Sammy3469]

S, what a friggin blowhard Hank is. I wonder if ol' George is going to have a talk with him.Interesting to watch the glaring contrast between the way the Yankees and Red Sox are handling this... It will also be quite interesting to see what comes of the tampering.

Nothing will come of the tampering beside Selig telling Hank to button his lip. I'm sure the Sox aren't leaking anything anyway.

 

[Workhorse]

Jon Heyman on WFAN right now:

"The Twins are LAUGHING at Hank Steinbrenner and his deadline".

 

[shadyridr]

Some rumors I heard:

- The 3rd player the Twins want from the Yankees is Austin Jackson. Yanks are balking

- Sox dont really want Santana, just driving up the price. If a deal is accepted they will fail to reach a contract with Santana (this rumor sounds like BS).

- Twins are basically laughing at the Yanks deadline

- Santana wants 22-24 mil per

 

[shadyridr]

-Twins are not crazy about Cabrera but like him better than Crisp.

 

[Workhorse]

-Twins are not crazy about Cabrera but like him better than Crisp.

Makes sense. Crisp is older and makes more money.

 

[Balco]

Well, let's assume that Lester is out and the framework of a deal is, say, Ellsbury/Lowrie/Bowden.....that's enough for me to move Santana. I think landing your leadoff hitter for the next several years and two nice prospects is enough. Given how good I personally think Ellsbury is and given how huge the organizational hole CF is for the Twins I do the deal while they can. They'll never get Ellsbury in July 2008 as by then he'll be in line for his first all star game.

Oh come on now

It's a game they play at the mid point for the league's top performers.

Yep as well as a game Ellsbury will not be a part of in 2008.Seriously, you're making him sound like the next Grady Sizemore. That aint happening. He's gonna be a very good player though. I think he's got Johnny Damon potential.

Ellsbury can develop into a great player, but people really should not use a small sample as an indicator of future success. If so, Kevin Maas would be a 1st ballot hall of famer. Ellsbury is going to have to make adjustments. Same goes for Hughes, Chambelain and Kennedy. All of thos guys are going to hit rough spots.If the Sox can get the deal done with Ellsbury as the centerpiece, and not have to give up Lester or Bucholtz, they should do it immediately.

 

[Balco]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

The deals are very good when you consider the dollars. If you are Minnesota you get all the players and you get roughly 10 mil to play with as well.

except 13 million on Santana is probably the best way you can spend that 13 million given today's FA market.

They should take that $$ and turn around and trade for Haren...Net D Young, Haren and 1/2 of the players from the Santana trade for Santana and Garza

I guess, but I think any Haren package would take at least 2/3rds to 3/4th of the Santana package.

Haren would take Hughes and something else. Haren is two years from free agency, has a great price tag and is one of the top 10 pitchers in the majors.

 

[shadyridr]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

The deals are very good when you consider the dollars. If you are Minnesota you get all the players and you get roughly 10 mil to play with as well.

except 13 million on Santana is probably the best way you can spend that 13 million given today's FA market.

They should take that $$ and turn around and trade for Haren...Net D Young, Haren and 1/2 of the players from the Santana trade for Santana and Garza

I guess, but I think any Haren package would take at least 2/3rds to 3/4th of the Santana package.

Haren would take Hughes and something else. Haren is two years from free agency, has a great price tag and is one of the top 10 pitchers in the majors.

Not even close

 

[Balco]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

That should read "A Red Sox scout says"...

I'd highly doubt that Ellsbury develops 25+ HR power.

I still like the kid an awful lot. In many ways, he's a young Kenny Lofton with better range and a better attitude. He's going to be a valuable player.

Wow. Sizemore has 40 homer power and a scout thinks Elsbury is going to match him? I think the AL Scout is Peter Gammons. Elsbury is going to be a glue guy, IMO. Great defensive player, table setter on Offense, All Star potential, no doubt. But to say he is going to be a 3-4-5 hitter is wishful thinking IMO.

 

[Alias]

Yanks are really putting in an effort here...

Yankees GM Brian Cashman, meanwhile, had yet to arrive. GM Theo Epstein and his aides have been holed up in the Sox suite, holding meetings and making phone calls, and there remains a school of thought that the Sox’ primary interest is driving up the price for the Yankees. One Sox type told me a little while ago that there may be more rumor than substance to what has been reported to date, which is par for the course at these things, though we are persuaded by our sources that Ellsbury and Jon Lester have been offered in different packages.

The White Sox, meanwhile, are anxious for a resolution of the Santana business because they'd like to engage the Sox in talks for Coco Crisp. Boston doesn't trade Coco, of course, if Ellsbury goes to the Twins in a deal for Santana.

Yankees owner Hank Steinbrenner was remarkably blunt and public in comments expressing the team's desire to get Santana, and in setting a deadline of today; Steinbrenner may have crossed the line into tampering with some of his comments. Trust me, Sox brass are far more careful about even breathing Santana's name.

 

[Balco]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

The deals are very good when you consider the dollars. If you are Minnesota you get all the players and you get roughly 10 mil to play with as well.

except 13 million on Santana is probably the best way you can spend that 13 million given today's FA market.

They should take that $$ and turn around and trade for Haren...Net D Young, Haren and 1/2 of the players from the Santana trade for Santana and Garza

I guess, but I think any Haren package would take at least 2/3rds to 3/4th of the Santana package.

Haren would take Hughes and something else. Haren is two years from free agency, has a great price tag and is one of the top 10 pitchers in the majors.

Not even close

Yes he is. And he is 27. Hate to burst your bubble. But I agree, 200 innings a year guy, 180-200 K's, low 3.00 ERA, maybe he is top 25?

 

[shadyridr]

Guys better than Haren:

Halladay

Beckett

Bedard

Kazmir

Santana

Verlander

Sabathia

Lackey

Hudson

Smoltz

Zambrano

Oswalt

Sheets

Peavy

Webb

 

[cobalt_27]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

That should read "A Red Sox scout says"...

I'd highly doubt that Ellsbury develops 25+ HR power.

I still like the kid an awful lot. In many ways, he's a young Kenny Lofton with better range and a better attitude. He's going to be a valuable player.

Wow. Sizemore has 40 homer power and a scout thinks Elsbury is going to match him? I think the AL Scout is Peter Gammons. Elsbury is going to be a glue guy, IMO. Great defensive player, table setter on Offense, All Star potential, no doubt. But to say he is going to be a 3-4-5 hitter is wishful thinking IMO.

And completely insane.

 

[shadyridr]

OK Ill compromise and say Haren is top 15

 

[Balco]

Guys better than Haren:

Halladay - arguable

Beckett - Yes

Bedard - yes

Kazmir - No

Santana - Yes

Verlander - Yes

Sabathia - Yes

Lackey - No

Hudson - Was this a joke? in 2001?

Smoltz - nope

Zambrano - Sorry

Oswalt - Yes

Sheets - Nope

Peavy - Yes

Webb - Yes

 

[Funkley]

OK Ill compromise and say Haren is top 15

Braves would trade Hudson for Haren in heartbeat.

 

[shadyridr]

OK Ill compromise and say Haren is top 15

Braves would trade Hudson for Haren in heartbeat.

Im just talking about value next year. Not money, age etc. And yes I agree they would

 

[shadyridr]

Guys better than Haren:

Halladay - arguable

Beckett - Yes

Bedard - yes

Kazmir - No

Santana - Yes

Verlander - Yes

Sabathia - Yes

Lackey - No

Hudson - Was this a joke? in 2001?

Smoltz - nope

Zambrano - Sorry

Oswalt - Yes

Sheets - Nope

Peavy - Yes

Webb - Yes

You obviously have a higher value of Haren than I do. Hes not an ace IMO.

 

[Balco]

Guys better than Haren:

Halladay - arguable

Beckett - Yes

Bedard - yes

Kazmir - No

Santana - Yes

Verlander - Yes

Sabathia - Yes

Lackey - No

Hudson - Was this a joke? in 2001?

Smoltz - nope

Zambrano - Sorry

Oswalt - Yes

Sheets - Nope

Peavy - Yes

Webb - Yes

You obviously have a higher value of Haren than I do. Hes not an ace IMO.

I definitely have a higher value, then. He is a # 1 starter, and he would assume that role if the Yanks nabbed him.

 

[[icon]]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

That should read "A Red Sox scout says"...

I'd highly doubt that Ellsbury develops 25+ HR power.

I still like the kid an awful lot. In many ways, he's a young Kenny Lofton with better range and a better attitude. He's going to be a valuable player.

Wow. Sizemore has 40 homer power and a scout thinks Elsbury is going to match him? I think the AL Scout is Peter Gammons. Elsbury is going to be a glue guy, IMO. Great defensive player, table setter on Offense, All Star potential, no doubt. But to say he is going to be a 3-4-5 hitter is wishful thinking IMO.

And completely insane.

Yep. Ellsbury is a natural born leadoff hitter and centerfeilder. Absurd Speed, fantastic eye for contact, flashy glove. If they could just bump his plate discipline JUST A BIT he'd be perfect in the role (not that he's bad now).

 

[shadyridr]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

That should read "A Red Sox scout says"...

I'd highly doubt that Ellsbury develops 25+ HR power.

I still like the kid an awful lot. In many ways, he's a young Kenny Lofton with better range and a better attitude. He's going to be a valuable player.

Wow. Sizemore has 40 homer power and a scout thinks Elsbury is going to match him? I think the AL Scout is Peter Gammons. Elsbury is going to be a glue guy, IMO. Great defensive player, table setter on Offense, All Star potential, no doubt. But to say he is going to be a 3-4-5 hitter is wishful thinking IMO.

And completely insane.

Yep. Ellsbury is a natural born leadoff hitter and centerfeilder. Absurd Speed, fantastic eye for contact, flashy glove. If they could just bump his plate discipline JUST A BIT he'd be perfect in the role (not that he's bad now).

Didnt you just decribe Juan Pierre?

 

[shadyridr]

Guys better than Haren:

Halladay - arguable

Beckett - Yes

Bedard - yes

Kazmir - No

Santana - Yes

Verlander - Yes

Sabathia - Yes

Lackey - No

Hudson - Was this a joke? in 2001?

Smoltz - nope

Zambrano - Sorry

Oswalt - Yes

Sheets - Nope

Peavy - Yes

Webb - Yes

You obviously have a higher value of Haren than I do. Hes not an ace IMO.

I definitely have a higher value, then. He is a # 1 starter, and he would assume that role if the Yanks nabbed him.

I dont disagree here as you can see no Yanks appear on my list.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

That should read "A Red Sox scout says"...

I'd highly doubt that Ellsbury develops 25+ HR power.

I still like the kid an awful lot. In many ways, he's a young Kenny Lofton with better range and a better attitude. He's going to be a valuable player.

Wow. Sizemore has 40 homer power and a scout thinks Elsbury is going to match him? I think the AL Scout is Peter Gammons. Elsbury is going to be a glue guy, IMO. Great defensive player, table setter on Offense, All Star potential, no doubt. But to say he is going to be a 3-4-5 hitter is wishful thinking IMO.

And completely insane.

Yep. Ellsbury is a natural born leadoff hitter and centerfeilder. Absurd Speed, fantastic eye for contact, flashy glove. If they could just bump his plate discipline JUST A BIT he'd be perfect in the role (not that he's bad now).

Didnt you just decribe Juan Pierre?

Oh come on...

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

That should read "A Red Sox scout says"...

I'd highly doubt that Ellsbury develops 25+ HR power.

I still like the kid an awful lot. In many ways, he's a young Kenny Lofton with better range and a better attitude. He's going to be a valuable player.

Wow. Sizemore has 40 homer power and a scout thinks Elsbury is going to match him? I think the AL Scout is Peter Gammons. Elsbury is going to be a glue guy, IMO. Great defensive player, table setter on Offense, All Star potential, no doubt. But to say he is going to be a 3-4-5 hitter is wishful thinking IMO.

And completely insane.

Yep. Ellsbury is a natural born leadoff hitter and centerfeilder. Absurd Speed, fantastic eye for contact, flashy glove. If they could just bump his plate discipline JUST A BIT he'd be perfect in the role (not that he's bad now).

Didnt you just decribe Juan Pierre?

No, Ellsbury will actually get on base.

 

[[icon]]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

That should read "A Red Sox scout says"...

I'd highly doubt that Ellsbury develops 25+ HR power.

I still like the kid an awful lot. In many ways, he's a young Kenny Lofton with better range and a better attitude. He's going to be a valuable player.

Wow. Sizemore has 40 homer power and a scout thinks Elsbury is going to match him? I think the AL Scout is Peter Gammons. Elsbury is going to be a glue guy, IMO. Great defensive player, table setter on Offense, All Star potential, no doubt. But to say he is going to be a 3-4-5 hitter is wishful thinking IMO.

And completely insane.

Yep. Ellsbury is a natural born leadoff hitter and centerfeilder. Absurd Speed, fantastic eye for contact, flashy glove. If they could just bump his plate discipline JUST A BIT he'd be perfect in the role (not that he's bad now).

Didnt you just decribe Juan Pierre?

Yes... But he'll likely be Juan Pierre with a 200 point higher OPS

 

[Funkley]

Sad thing is that you could do a lot worse than finding the next Juan Pierre but I think Ellsbury will be superior player. I think the Johnny Damon comparison is a lot more accurate.

 

[[icon]]

By the way.. just wanted to say this has been a fun discussion with the few baessball nuts who are still haunting this forum in the off season :thumbsup:

I know we're all caustic #######s to each other on here but It'd be a blast to grab a beer and talk hardball with any one of you clowns. My B&M buddies are logheads when it comes to anything under the surface of the game.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Sad thing is that you could do a lot worse than finding the next Juan Pierre

 

[Balco]

Sad thing is that you could do a lot worse than finding the next Juan Pierre but I think Ellsbury will be superior player. I think the Johnny Damon comparison is a lot more accurate.

I think that is a great comparison. And Damon in his prime was awesome.Twins would have a pretty nice lineup with the addition of Elsbury to go along with the recently signed Young. Throw in two studs like Morneau and Mauer, and a solid guy like Cuddyer, and that is pretty darn good.A huge question would be Liriano. If he could get back to 1/2 the player he was, then look out. The Twins have an awesome bullpen. And solid young pitching, even after losing Garza. If they in fact trade Santana, I would still try to trade Nathan. They have some internal candidates that can fill the closers role. Not like Nathan, but who can?

 

[Funkley]

Sad thing is that you could do a lot worse than finding the next Juan Pierre

It's true. Most "prospects" would kill to have his career. I don't wish the guy upon my hometown team but the Denard Span's of the world will never even grow up to be Juan Pierre.