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The Johan Santana rumor mill (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Doctor Detroit
- Start date
Frostillicus
Footballguy
??Ellsbury = Hughes. Masterson/Lowrie > Cabrera/throw in
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Yankees turned this down:
Tremendous Upside
Footballguy
The schadenfreude is strong with this oneWow - lots of sad Yankee fans all of a sudden.Where is the swagger? Where is the arrogance?This is more fun than watchinhg Giambi sweat while just sitting on the bench.
Tremendous Upside
Footballguy
Yanks should make that deal, IMO...
the moops
Footballguy
Basically every package put forth by the Yankees has been Hughes and a whole bunch of junk. Cabrera has no real value to the Twins other than he plays a position where they currently have nobody. But in all honestly, he is not a chip that sweetens the pot. Unfortunately for the Yankees, the Sox have decided to include other A prospects. Masterson and Lowrie are rated #3 and #4 respectively in the Sox system. Put those with Lester, and add Crisp (who may or may not have value to the Twins) and that is a far superior package for a team that has mutiple holes.
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Insoxicated
Easy Turbo.. nobody's signed any paperwork just yet.....
shadyridr
Footballguy
shadyridr
Footballguy
I disagree with this. Twins obviously do not. Hughes is a potential Ace.
Domination
Footballguy
I just read this, and if it is true then the Red Sox finally seem ready to pony up and get this done.
New Red Sox Offer?????
New Red Sox Offer?????
TLEF316
Footballguy
If thats the package, so be it.
You bet your sweet hinter about that one.The schadenfreude is strong with this oneWow - lots of sad Yankee fans all of a sudden.Where is the swagger? Where is the arrogance?This is more fun than watchinhg Giambi sweat while just sitting on the bench.
shadyridr
Footballguy
If thats the package then thats certainly fair. Sox had the balls to trade their prospects, Yanks did not want to include Kennedy. Im not gonna ##### about that being a worse offer cuz its not.
Tremendous Upside
Footballguy
If the info above was correct, they didn't even have to trade Kennedy...Austin Jackson better turn in to ####### Reggie Jackson if not including him caused the Sox to get Santana...
TLEF316
Footballguy
yeah, i dont understand this either. Again, maybe its yankee bias, but Ellsbury just seems like a very fast slap hitter with very limited power and a good glove. If it breaks 100% perfect for him (and i think this is really going out on a ledge) he's somewhere between Damon and sizemore, only with less power. He could end up being nothing more than a better fielding Juan Pierre in his prime. If that is equal to what was the top pitching prospect in baseball 6 months ago, I don't know what to say.
shadyridr
Footballguy
I havent seen the offer in post #804 anywhere else. I think that was just a rumor. Why would the Twins need 2 CFers?
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Insoxicated
Key here. 2007 MLB Statistics:
Hughes : 13G - 7.2 K/9 - 2-1 K/BB - 4.46 ERA - 1.28 ERA
Good but not blow you out of the water numbers just yet.. plus already getting hurt (twice?) is not a good sign this early on. Not saying the kid will flop.. he still oozes with potential..... but his odds of living up to that "dominant ace" that many yankee fans (and people outside the organization) feel he's destined for, are not as high as some may think.
Ellsbury - 33G - 2-1 K/BB - 9 SB (0 CS) - .902 OPS - .353 AVG
Obviously played a bit over his head here bjut Bill James has his 2008 projected as .320 AVG / .802 OPS / 42 SB
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Insoxicated
shadyridr
Footballguy
That's ######ed. Why would Boston trade both CFs?
I didnt even notice Crisp in that deal. Makes no sense.
shadyridr
Footballguy
So Hughes is a potential ace and Ellsbury is a potential Damon. Still not seeing your point.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Exactly, Hughes is a potential Ace just like Ellsbury is a potential star CF. Yeah, he had an amazing callup and very good post season, but i just think Sox fans may be just a tad optimistic about a guy who is essentially a slap hitting, good glove guy with speed at this point. Player value is subjective, so if the Twins want him more, so be it. Me personally, i wouldnt even consider trading Hughes for Ellsbery.
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Insoxicated
The point is Ellsbury is already living up to that potential... and on the big stage no less. The kid was a very legit candidate for WS MVP before he had even played a fulll MLB season. Hughes has shown to be a good young pitcher with flashes of brilliance and a bit of an injury problem
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Insoxicated
I take issue with the Slap hitting comment.... Juan Pierre is a slap hitter.... Ichiro is a slap hitter. Juan Pierre: .073 ISO (career)
Ichiro: .103 ISO (career)
Crisp: .117 ISO (2 years with boston)
Ellsbury: .155 ISO (2007)
I'm not saying Ellsbury is going to be a better player than hughes..... if they both live up to their potential Hughes will be a much better player. I'm just saying Ellsbury is a much safer bet right now.
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Tremendous Upside
Footballguy
Yanks released their spring training schedule...
Only 71 days until pitchers and catchers!
Only 71 days until pitchers and catchers!
TLEF316
Footballguy
I'm not a big new age stat guy. What exactly does this stat entail? Could you name a few other guys with an ISO similar to ellsbury? Thanks. Regardless, In terms of power, from what ive heard, he's a 17-18 HR guy at best. (and even that is probably pushing it) Not saying HR's are the only important stat, I'd need more than a singles and doubles guy to pass on a potential SP#1
Funkley
Collar: Up
From where?
southeastjerome
Footballguy
Yes, I certainly would not characterize Ellsbury as a slap hitter. He can drive the ball. On occaison, he might utilize a "slap hit" to take advantage of his speed, but by no means is it his main way of getting on base.
shadyridr
Footballguy
Why do you keep pounding Ellsbury's 2007 or his WS? Thats a small sample size. What's his career #s? I know that it was the minors but that is a good indicator of future success when we have such a small major league sample size even though you seem to think thats the only #s one should look at. Like somebody else said earlier. Kevin Maas would be a HOFer if you just looked at his rookie year. Ellsbury is still potential at this point.
shadyridr
Footballguy
Someone on another site said 1510 in Boston is reporting it done
TLEF316
Footballguy
Hitters are always safer than pitchers because of injuries. Stud pitchers are still always valued more. I dont think this helps your argument.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Yanks screwed the pooch on this, if indeed, the Sox/Twins got this deal done. Good for them, obviously...they worked the negotiations better and may have ponied up more than the Yanks did. But, imo, that's the Yankees fault for nitpicking here and there. They should've sent Hughes/Kennedy/Melky/PTBNL while they had the chance.
Gopher State
Footballguy
Wow, if this is correct it should be a done deal. Boston will be the team to beat for a few years to come.
TLEF316
Footballguy
so can Damon. I've heard his swing described as a power slap. I might agree that Ellsbury is similar, but i dont think his power upside is as high.
southeastjerome
Footballguy
Who the heck listens to 1510?? I have 850 WEEI on right now and there hasn't been any indication that a deal is done.
Funkley
Collar: Up
Cool, thanks Shady.
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Insoxicated
ISO is not a stat that can be reliably gleaned from a minor league career as power increases as hitters enter certain growth cycles. That said... if you MUST... Ellsbury's career ISO including minors is.....still .155
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Funkley
Collar: Up
the moops
Footballguy
Alot less noise.
southeastjerome
Footballguy
Power slap? There's a term you don't hear everyday. Ellsbury has been compared to Damon since he was in college (even before he was drafted by Boston). He might not hit for as many home runs at Damon, he might hit more, he might hit less. Who knows. In saying that he drives the ball, I certainly didn't mean to imply he's a home run hitter. He's an OPS guy more than anything, which is fine by me. He doesn't need to hit 20 HRs a year with Pedrioa, Ortiz and Manny hitting behind him (if he isn't dealt of course).
T
The Ghost of Common
Guest
Here's my take. I am an avid baseball fan. Angels actually. I moved to the Boston area and watched a good 70 percent, if not more, of the Sox games this year because that's all I could see on a nightly basis.
The thought amongst the die hard Sox fans around my office and circle of friends is that Ellsbury is something special. If not for anything else, what other leadoff hitters would you want on your squad in 2008? Reyes, Juan Pierre? There are a few, but not many. His ability to get on base and the speed he has makes him a hell of a lead off guy in that lineup. I see him scoring a lot of runs. I see him as a special guy in the capacity of a leadoff hitter which you see less of these days with the big power hitters dominating many lineups.
On the other hand. As far as Lester goes, I just don't see it. I think the Sox have done a tremendous job of marketing him and building him up, and the cancer survival story has definitely contributed to his persona as being a guy of high character (as it should). I just don't see electrifying stuff from him. He is very hittable in my opinion, and not overly durable either.
Again, I see Lester as a #3 starter on the high side. A 4.25 ERA kind of guy without overpowering strikeout material.
As far as the Yankees go and the deal for Johan. It just seems like the Sox prospects have better outlooks than any of the guys being thrown in behind Hughes.
I'd take the Sox deal in a 2nd, but I'd want Ellsbury, even @ the expense of Lester.
The thought amongst the die hard Sox fans around my office and circle of friends is that Ellsbury is something special. If not for anything else, what other leadoff hitters would you want on your squad in 2008? Reyes, Juan Pierre? There are a few, but not many. His ability to get on base and the speed he has makes him a hell of a lead off guy in that lineup. I see him scoring a lot of runs. I see him as a special guy in the capacity of a leadoff hitter which you see less of these days with the big power hitters dominating many lineups.
On the other hand. As far as Lester goes, I just don't see it. I think the Sox have done a tremendous job of marketing him and building him up, and the cancer survival story has definitely contributed to his persona as being a guy of high character (as it should). I just don't see electrifying stuff from him. He is very hittable in my opinion, and not overly durable either.
Again, I see Lester as a #3 starter on the high side. A 4.25 ERA kind of guy without overpowering strikeout material.
As far as the Yankees go and the deal for Johan. It just seems like the Sox prospects have better outlooks than any of the guys being thrown in behind Hughes.
I'd take the Sox deal in a 2nd, but I'd want Ellsbury, even @ the expense of Lester.
Gopher State
Footballguy
Santana Watch takes over Music City
After talking to both the Red Sox and Yankees throughout Monday night about a potential Johan Santana deal, the Twins exchanged medical information with Boston on Santana and Jon Lester.
By La Velle E. Neal III, Star Tribune
NASHVILLE — After a day of denials, threats and evasive comments, the baseball world on Monday continued to wait for Twins ace lefthander Johan Santana to be traded.
It was known that the Twins entered talks on Monday evening with both the Red Sox and Yankees about packages for the two-time Cy Young Award winner. Boston's offer centered around center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury and other prospects. New York was offering center fielder Melky Cabrera, supreme pitching prospect Phillip Hughes and at least one other prospect.
Well after midnight, the Boston Globe reported the Red Sox and Twins were exchanging medical information on Santana and Boston pitcher Jon Lester, indicating that the teams might be closing in on a deal. The Red Sox and Twins were locked in negotiations after the Yankees refused to include another top prospect, pitcher Ian Kennedy, in a package that already included Hughes and Cabrera, the Globe reported.
It was uncertain whether the Red Sox also were including Ellsbury in their offer. Late Monday, a Red Sox source told the Star Tribune that the Twins had asked for Ellsbury, Lester and shortstop Jed Lowrie in a trade, but that Boston didn't want to include both Ellsbury and Lester together.
Any team that strikes a deal for Santana will request a 72-hour window to discuss a contract extension. Santana is believed to be seeking at least $25 million a year.
As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."
It's unclear whether lefthander Andy Pettitte's decision to return to the Yankees impacts their talks.
The Mariners pulled out of the running during the day, but it was unclear whether the Dodgers, Angels or Mets were going ramp up interest.
While Santana filmed TV commercials in Venezuela this week, Twins GM Bill Smith looked and sounded well-rehearsed as he swatted back questions about possible transactions.
"It helps the media, I understand," Smith said, "but it just doesn't help the process to be doing that publicly until deals are done, trades are made and contracts are signed."
Still, it was as entertaining a day as a winter meetings session could be -- minus a blockbuster transaction.
Santana was incensed in the morning when he read reports that suggested he told the Twins that he wanted to be traded to either the Red Sox or Yankees, which certainly would have hampered the Twins' plans. Santana had his agent, Peter Greenberg, refute the reports.
"That's completely inaccurate," Greenberg said of the reports. "[santana is] upset about that. He's put no limitations on Bill Smith to do his job."
Greenberg declined to say whether Santana would waive his no-trade clause if he's still with the Twins when the 2008 season starts. "That's a long way away," Greenberg said.
Things heated up again after Steinbrenner, in published reports on Sunday, talked so openly about wanting Santana that the Twins contemplated filing tampering charges.
Steinbrenner complained Sunday about being played against the Red Sox, saying: "As much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear -- for his sake, to know that I do want him -- but the fact is that I'm not going to play the game."
A high-ranking Twins official said the club would discuss the matter internally, "and with the commissioner's office." The Twins' complaints could disappear if a deal with the Yankees is consummated.
Baseball's tampering rules prohibit officials from publicly discussing other teams' players.
When Steinbrenner's comments were brought up, Smith said he wouldn't comment on negotiations. When it was pointed out that he was asked to comment on a comment, he replied, "No comment."
Meanwhile, potential deals involving Oakland pitcher Dan Haren, Baltimore pitcher Erik Bedard and Florida slugger Miguel Cabrera seemed to be held up while teams determined whether their resources should remain focused on Santana.
And there's always the chance -- albeit unlikely -- that the Twins keep Santana.
"That's one of the the beauties of this," Smith said. "Johan Santana is signed for 2008 and is one of the best in the game. He's a first-class player and a first-class person."
La Velle E. Neal III • lneal@startribune.com
After talking to both the Red Sox and Yankees throughout Monday night about a potential Johan Santana deal, the Twins exchanged medical information with Boston on Santana and Jon Lester.
By La Velle E. Neal III, Star Tribune
NASHVILLE — After a day of denials, threats and evasive comments, the baseball world on Monday continued to wait for Twins ace lefthander Johan Santana to be traded.
It was known that the Twins entered talks on Monday evening with both the Red Sox and Yankees about packages for the two-time Cy Young Award winner. Boston's offer centered around center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury and other prospects. New York was offering center fielder Melky Cabrera, supreme pitching prospect Phillip Hughes and at least one other prospect.
Well after midnight, the Boston Globe reported the Red Sox and Twins were exchanging medical information on Santana and Boston pitcher Jon Lester, indicating that the teams might be closing in on a deal. The Red Sox and Twins were locked in negotiations after the Yankees refused to include another top prospect, pitcher Ian Kennedy, in a package that already included Hughes and Cabrera, the Globe reported.
It was uncertain whether the Red Sox also were including Ellsbury in their offer. Late Monday, a Red Sox source told the Star Tribune that the Twins had asked for Ellsbury, Lester and shortstop Jed Lowrie in a trade, but that Boston didn't want to include both Ellsbury and Lester together.
Any team that strikes a deal for Santana will request a 72-hour window to discuss a contract extension. Santana is believed to be seeking at least $25 million a year.
As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."
It's unclear whether lefthander Andy Pettitte's decision to return to the Yankees impacts their talks.
The Mariners pulled out of the running during the day, but it was unclear whether the Dodgers, Angels or Mets were going ramp up interest.
While Santana filmed TV commercials in Venezuela this week, Twins GM Bill Smith looked and sounded well-rehearsed as he swatted back questions about possible transactions.
"It helps the media, I understand," Smith said, "but it just doesn't help the process to be doing that publicly until deals are done, trades are made and contracts are signed."
Still, it was as entertaining a day as a winter meetings session could be -- minus a blockbuster transaction.
Santana was incensed in the morning when he read reports that suggested he told the Twins that he wanted to be traded to either the Red Sox or Yankees, which certainly would have hampered the Twins' plans. Santana had his agent, Peter Greenberg, refute the reports.
"That's completely inaccurate," Greenberg said of the reports. "[santana is] upset about that. He's put no limitations on Bill Smith to do his job."
Greenberg declined to say whether Santana would waive his no-trade clause if he's still with the Twins when the 2008 season starts. "That's a long way away," Greenberg said.
Things heated up again after Steinbrenner, in published reports on Sunday, talked so openly about wanting Santana that the Twins contemplated filing tampering charges.
Steinbrenner complained Sunday about being played against the Red Sox, saying: "As much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear -- for his sake, to know that I do want him -- but the fact is that I'm not going to play the game."
A high-ranking Twins official said the club would discuss the matter internally, "and with the commissioner's office." The Twins' complaints could disappear if a deal with the Yankees is consummated.
Baseball's tampering rules prohibit officials from publicly discussing other teams' players.
When Steinbrenner's comments were brought up, Smith said he wouldn't comment on negotiations. When it was pointed out that he was asked to comment on a comment, he replied, "No comment."
Meanwhile, potential deals involving Oakland pitcher Dan Haren, Baltimore pitcher Erik Bedard and Florida slugger Miguel Cabrera seemed to be held up while teams determined whether their resources should remain focused on Santana.
And there's always the chance -- albeit unlikely -- that the Twins keep Santana.
"That's one of the the beauties of this," Smith said. "Johan Santana is signed for 2008 and is one of the best in the game. He's a first-class player and a first-class person."
La Velle E. Neal III • lneal@startribune.com
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Part of this is the fact the Twins have a lot more pitching in the minors than hitting, and have always been better at developing pitchers than hitters.
southeastjerome
Footballguy
Oh so you're the one! All kidding aside, whatever you prefer. I'd listen to the zone when Sean McDonough had a show, but I just find it unbearably boring.1510>>>850.Alot less noise.
TLEF316
Footballguy
They Just moved Garza for Delmon Young. Liriano is coming off a major injury and Santana is leaving. In the past few years, they've developed guys like Cuddyer, Mauer and Morneau.If they would rather have Ellsbury than Hughes, I've got to believe that they just feel he is the better player. With Santana and Garza gone, and Liriano a question mark, their rotation needs major help. I know they have more prospects, but i dont understand passing up the guy who was the sports top pitching prospect to start this year.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank. In this day and age, this is exactly the type of guy you bend over backwards to get. Equally-important, you've now allowed your AL East division rival to get him in the process.I don't understand why the calculus of this is so damn difficult.
