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http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007...ort-has-upside/
It would be great to get this deal done without trading Ellsbury or Buchholz.
They obviously dont value the players in the trade the same way you do. I could easily see Melky and Crisp as a wash. And Lester over Hughes isnt quite a giant leap. Yes, Hughes has the better petigree, but he also had arm problems last year, whereas Lester's health problems had nothing to do with his arm, and he's a lefty. And if Boston is willing to trade 2 other prospects that the Twins feel could develop into major leaguers, and the Yankees only offer 1 or 2 that dont project as well and the Yankee's package suddenly doesnt look so hot.
Like previous post stated, Lester is a lefty.Santana will be gone and they do not know what they have with Liriano until he comes back. Lester could provide them with a power lefty arm that they need and NY can't offer.
Im glad you have it all figured out. You really should go scout for a MLB team, seeing as player drafting and development over the years has been pretty much a crap shoot. And yes, it was the hamstring/ankle and not the arm, sorry for the error. But thats still not an encouraging beginning to a MLB career.
How much further along is Lester than Hughes? I think doomsdaydoc has it right, I'd rather have Hughes.
Career numbersHughes13G 72.2IP 64H 39R 8HR 29BB 58K 5W 3L 1.28WHIP .235BAA 4.46ERALester27G 144.1IP 152H 76R 17HR 74BB 110K 11W 2L 1.57WHIP .278BAA 4.68ERA While Hughes mostly has better numbers thus far, its hardly a slam dunk and its also a very small sample size. Personally, I'd be more concerned with Hughes' health issues than Lester's, and hes a lefty. Plus, Im pretty sure that Fenway is a better hitters park than Yankee Stadium, so Im not so sure how different their park adjusted numbers would be. Add in the fact that Lester has had to battle cancer which could potentially galvanize his work ethic, and I just dont see a huge gap between the two, and obviously neither do the Twins - who have one of the few opinions that matter on this subject.
Thats a pretty definitive slam dunk to me
Too small a sample size as you mentioned but having watched both I prefer Hughes. The work ethic theory is interesting but I think you'd have to know Hughes. Maybe he lived with midgets or something and is motivated to reach great heights. No pun intended.
I prefer Hughes too, just dont think its a huge gap. And I think at this point its not crazy for the Twins to value them both about the same.
Coco is a gold glove CF. Isnt Coco's offensive ceiling what he did in Cleveland which is well beyond anything Cabrera has everdone?doomsdaydoc said:
If true, Boston benefits the most whether Kennedy is added or not. The Sox either strengthen their team or weaken the Yanks future.
a .30 difference in WHIP is significant, however this is a small sample size and if you look at the minor league numbers Hughes blows Lester awayThis is not debatable. Hughes is worth way more than Lester and Minnesota knows it as well. this writer may or may not have a clue, but speculatuing that the Twins like Lester better is folly
I've not examined their minor league numbers in depth, but just because their raw statistics look to favor one player doesnt necessarily mean anything. I've yet to see park and league adjusted figures for both. Plus, the Twins scouting department might not like something specific about Hughes. Maybe they feel his delivery is going to cause arm problems. I don't know, but people in NY seem to think of Hughes as the second coming. Its entirely possible that the Twins think Hughes has a 20% chance to be a 1, 75% to be a 2, and 5% chance to be a 3, with Lester at 5/75/20. They're both young pitchers with the potential to get better, I just dont see either one of them as surefire ace pitchers. I've really no idea how ranking Lester ahead of Hughes is folly.
You haven't looked at their minor league stats yet you are making comments about them? Baseball is not like football; stats in baseball mean a lot more. Have you even seen them pitch? Hughes has an excellent delivery and the ball gets up on the hitter with some movement. He also has 4 major league pitches. I have watched Lester and I am much less impressed, although some people say that his illness is one of the reasons he has not been as well.Taking a shot at NY'rs is a bit juvenile because none of us here have been homers to the point where it is absurd. as for surefire aces...I don't know if there are any of them...except Jobadparker713 said:
Happy Holidays all!
I've looked at their raw minor league stats, and Im more impressed with Hughes. But I havent seen them normalized for park and league effects, and Im not nearly knowledgable enough about the minors to be able to know which situations are pitcher friendly and which arent.As for talking about NYers, I think entirely discounting the possibility that the Twins evaluated Lester ahead of or even near Hughes as folly is due to homerism.You haven't looked at their minor league stats yet you are making comments about them? Baseball is not like football; stats in baseball mean a lot more. Have you even seen them pitch? Hughes has an excellent delivery and the ball gets up on the hitter with some movement. He also has 4 major league pitches. I have watched Lester and I am much less impressed, although some people say that his illness is one of the reasons he has not been as well.Taking a shot at NY'rs is a bit juvenile because none of us here have been homers to the point where it is absurd. as for surefire aces...I don't know if there are any of them...except Jobadparker713 said:Happy Holidays all!
You are incorrectI've looked at their raw minor league stats, and Im more impressed with Hughes. But I havent seen them normalized for park and league effects, and Im not nearly knowledgable enough about the minors to be able to know which situations are pitcher friendly and which arent.As for talking about NYers, I think entirely discounting the possibility that the Twins evaluated Lester ahead of or even near Hughes as folly is due to homerism.You haven't looked at their minor league stats yet you are making comments about them? Baseball is not like football; stats in baseball mean a lot more. Have you even seen them pitch? Hughes has an excellent delivery and the ball gets up on the hitter with some movement. He also has 4 major league pitches. I have watched Lester and I am much less impressed, although some people say that his illness is one of the reasons he has not been as well.Taking a shot at NY'rs is a bit juvenile because none of us here have been homers to the point where it is absurd. as for surefire aces...I don't know if there are any of them...except Jobadparker713 said:Happy Holidays all!
That is fair!
I love it....Yanks sticking it to the Sox and making them jack their offer up. Maybe now the Sox front O will realize that Crisp ain't getting it done.
If the Yankees end up giving up Hughes+ to get Santana, they haven't "stuck it" to anyone.And the notion that Marquez is an acceptible substitute for Kennedy in terms of trade value is utterly and completely laughable. Marquez is barely a prospect -- He's a notch or two below Masterson which makes him a "C Level" guy. A Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez deal isn't really jacking up the price over the Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie deal at all, and the Red Sox surely know that.Darth Cheney said:
But Hughes and Cabrera are better than Lester and Crisp.
All you're really saying there that matters and is true is that Hughes is better than Lester.But Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie is FAR better than Cabrera/Marquez. In fact, it ain't even close.
It doesn't matter because he won't be traded in the AL. Eventually the Dodgers or Mets will win out...at the trade deadline in July.
The only thing that does not make sense to me is why you guys think you know more than the Twins front office. The Twins have shown ability to evaluate talent in younger players, they have a proven track record. Do you think its possible that they might be seeing something in Lester, Masterson and Lowrie that you guys are incapable of comprehending without scouting these players?Thinking that you have a better gauge on this than the front office is ridiculous.
I think that you overvalue the "talent" that Boston is trying to pawn off for Santana. The Yanks could have acquired Santana for Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez and Mitch Hilligoss a couple weeks ago. Is that a better deal than the Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie deal ? If Boston wants Santana they're going to have to rework some of the players involved.
Guys on a baseball message board thinking they know more than the professionals who work in the game? I guess there is a first time for everything...The only thing that does not make sense to me is why you guys think you know more than the Twins front office. The Twins have shown ability to evaluate talent in younger players, they have a proven track record. Do you think its possible that they might be seeing something in Lester, Masterson and Lowrie that you guys are incapable of comprehending without scouting these players?Thinking that you have a better gauge on this than the front office is ridiculous.
You Boston guys are great. Giving up Hughes, Cabrera, Igawa and Marquez is sticking it to the rest of the league. The best pitcher in baseball in a Yanks uniform for a couple of prospects?... That's pretty devastating. My only regret would be the Yanks not making this deal in time to get a decent FA CF.See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.
Twins old GM resigned. New guy was hired off a message boardThe only thing that does not make sense to me is why you guys think you know more than the Twins front office. The Twins have shown ability to evaluate talent in younger players, they have a proven track record. Do you think its possible that they might be seeing something in Lester, Masterson and Lowrie that you guys are incapable of comprehending without scouting these players?Thinking that you have a better gauge on this than the front office is ridiculous.
Yeah, us Boston guys are great. Yankee fans think that Igawa has trade value.
So you know more than the Twins brass who has shown interest in Igawa? .Yeah, us Boston guys are great. Yankee fans think that Igawa has trade value.You Boston guys are great. Giving up Hughes, Cabrera, Igawa and Marquez is sticking it to the rest of the league. The best pitcher in baseball in a Yanks uniform for a couple of prospects?... That's pretty devastating. My only regret would be the Yanks not making this deal in time to get a decent FA CF.
You are seriously delusional if you think Igawa has any trade value.So you know more than the Twins brass who has shown interest in Igawa? .Yeah, us Boston guys are great. Yankee fans think that Igawa has trade value.
Link?All I've seen is speculation that "Igawa's name has come up in talks", principally from the YANKEE side. That is a far cry from "The Twins are interested in Igawa". Why in the world would the Twins want a 28 year old with below average stuff with a 1.60+ WHIP and 6.00+ ERA who's still owed $16 million? They've got tons of pre-arb kids who could do that for far less.So you know more than the Twins brass who has shown interest in Igawa? .Yeah, us Boston guys are great. Yankee fans think that Igawa has trade value.
This is as ignorant as the Yankees and Yankee fans were when the Yankees were up 3-0 in the playoffs on Boston (thinking that they couldn't lose). These teams are very close right now and any series between them is a flip of a coin. Any team that gets Santana will be the better team in the short term, the question is whether they would be better in the long term.See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.
Really, did 2007 not just happen?This is as ignorant as the Yankees and Yankee fans were when the Yankees were up 3-0 in the playoffs on Boston (thinking that they couldn't lose). These teams are very close right now and any series between them is a flip of a coin. Any team that gets Santana will be the better team in the short term, the question is whether they would be better in the long term.See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.
While you can't take anything away from the RedSox championship.... to think the Sox are head and shoulders above the Yanks is dumb.Really, did 2007 not just happen?This is as ignorant as the Yankees and Yankee fans were when the Yankees were up 3-0 in the playoffs on Boston (thinking that they couldn't lose). These teams are very close right now and any series between them is a flip of a coin. Any team that gets Santana will be the better team in the short term, the question is whether they would be better in the long term.See, but the Sox have no need to do this deal. They're already a better team than the Yanks, and I'd still give them the edge if the Yanks get Santana based on the deals that have been floating around. But if the Sox win, the Yanks are looking at the WC spot opening day, barring major injury problems for the Sox. Geez, with Beckett, Santana, DiceK and Bucholz the Yanks are looking at the WC spot for the next 3 or 4 years. This is a luxury purchase for the Sox, but the Yankees need to atleast prevent Santana from heading to the Sox. The only team that I'd say really needs to pull this off to solidify their team for this year thats in the running is the Mets.
But, it is ludicrous to ever think "you" know more than the GM's of an organization, (as posted prior)
Look, I run two companies, was a division I catcher who was drafted but broke a disc in my back that ended my baseball career and am a student of the game (physically, I was not good enough to play in the majors - even if I hadn't broken a disc in my back, I would have been AT BEST like a Girardi), but I do not think it is ludicrous to think I have more perspective at times on making good moves. Yeah, it might sound conceited, but I have been putting my thoughts and predictions in writing for over 5 years for a decent contingent of people and the Yankees would have been much better off listening to to my advice (even if I don't have all the info they have). I remember screaming at everyone who would listen (and most people would look at me like "what is wrong with you") that the Yankees just wasted 12 million dollars on Sterling Hitchcock. I called it the "stupidest signing in the history of baseball." They gave a guy worth no more than 2 million 12 million dollars. I also said that signing Giambi who is a great hitter for a contract at that length would be an albatross for the Yanks for the final 3 years. BTW, I was the first person who said Jeter should move to CF when ARod got there and I was crucified for it by my Yankee brethren. I could go on, but, anyway, while being an arm chair QB is very easy to do compared to making the real decisions that could cost you your job, I do not think it is unreasonable to question moves and to question non moves if it is done with good logic to back it up and you go back and look at your own track record and at the end of the year, let everyone know what predictions worked and which ones didn't (I do this every year).This notion that this is their livelihood so they ALWAYS know better, is pure folly. BTW, I am not referring to the average fan who is emotional and making comments without perspective. But, many times the good ole boy network keeps people employed who shouldn't be.Peace and Happy New Year all!
ive been saying it all along
