The Johan Santana rumor mill (1 Viewer)

[Hov34]

Why should I pay attention to MLB again?

Mets haven't won a title since 1986. Since then "small-market" Twins, Marlins, Blue Jays, Diamondbacks and Reds have combined to win 8 titles.

1986? Great, this is 2008 and small market teams might make a splash here and there, but they don't have chance to compete with the big boys year in and year out.

Rockies and DBacks NLCS last year. Seems they were able to compete fairly well.

What part of "year in year out" do you people not understand?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Why should I pay attention to MLB again?

Mets haven't won a title since 1986. Since then "small-market" Twins, Marlins, Blue Jays, Diamondbacks and Reds have combined to win 8 titles.

1986? Great, this is 2008 and small market teams might make a splash here and there, but they don't have chance to compete with the big boys year in and year out.

That's absurd.

Yeah, you're right baseball has no problems and is just as popular as it has always been. One team with a 200 million dollar+ salary and one with 30 million can compete no problems.

It's actually more popular based on ticket sales. HTH

 

[guru_007]

Why should I pay attention to MLB again?

Mets haven't won a title since 1986. Since then "small-market" Twins, Marlins, Blue Jays, Diamondbacks and Reds have combined to win 8 titles.

1986? Great, this is 2008 and small market teams might make a splash here and there, but they don't have chance to compete with the big boys year in and year out.

That's absurd.

Yeah, you're right baseball has no problems and is just as popular as it has always been. One team with a 200 million dollar+ salary and one with 30 million can compete no problems.

I'm pretty sure a team with a 50 buck payroll knocked a team with a near 200 million payroll out of the playoffs last year.....oh, and the 200 million payroll team was at homeDodgers have been really rolling through the NL west the last few years too

 

[Alias]

Indeed, one talent evaluator said that of all the combinations made available to the Twins, Tuesday's swap was the fourth or fifth best. Smith undoubtedly will tell the Twins' fan base that this was the best he could've done under the circumstances. It was either accept the Mets' swap on their terms, or lose Santana to free agency after this season.But Smith could've and should've waited longer. One key injury in spring training, and any of Santana's suitors would've come begging. But the rookie GM feared Santana wouldn't waive his no-trade clause after spring training began; Smith lost his nerve, just as he didn't have the professional intuition to deal for Hughes when he could have.

 

[pillowpants]

Indeed, one talent evaluator said that of all the combinations made available to the Twins, Tuesday's swap was the fourth or fifth best. Smith undoubtedly will tell the Twins' fan base that this was the best he could've done under the circumstances. It was either accept the Mets' swap on their terms, or lose Santana to free agency after this season.But Smith could've and should've waited longer. One key injury in spring training, and any of Santana's suitors would've come begging. But the rookie GM feared Santana wouldn't waive his no-trade clause after spring training began; Smith lost his nerve, just as he didn't have the professional intuition to deal for Hughes when he could have.

Would it have made more sense for the Twins to have taken the 2 draft picks? At the end of the first round, could they have better prospects than Gomez and Mulvey?

 

[RedRaiders]

As a Phillies fan, I'm rooting for lingering elbow soreness come May

 

[whoknew]

Why should I pay attention to MLB again?

Mets haven't won a title since 1986. Since then "small-market" Twins, Marlins, Blue Jays, Diamondbacks and Reds have combined to win 8 titles.

1986? Great, this is 2008 and small market teams might make a splash here and there, but they don't have chance to compete with the big boys year in and year out.

That's absurd.

Yeah, you're right baseball has no problems and is just as popular as it has always been. One team with a 200 million dollar+ salary and one with 30 million can compete no problems.

As Yankee23 points out, baseball is arguably as popular and healthy as its ever been. And of course there is salary disparity but that doesn't mean a small market can't compete. They just have to be smart. Apparently the team you support isn't.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

 

[Liquid Tension]

As a Santana dynasty owner> As a Tigers fan>

So you hated this...eh?

 

[Darth Cheney]

Why should I pay attention to MLB again?

Mets haven't won a title since 1986. Since then "small-market" Twins, Marlins, Blue Jays, Diamondbacks and Reds have combined to win 8 titles.

1986? Great, this is 2008 and small market teams might make a splash here and there, but they don't have chance to compete with the big boys year in and year out.

Rockies and DBacks NLCS last year. Seems they were able to compete fairly well.

What part of "year in year out" do you people not understand?

Why do you come to a baseball forum to tell eveyone that you do not watch baseball? You're not so important that all of us are saying " OH NO WHERE'S HOV 34?...and how come he's not commenting on the games?"

 

[Liquid Tension]

WHEW!!

Good deal for the Metsies. Too many injury ?'s for me to get behind dumping the farm for him, but what they gave up, versus what their needs are, its a steal and a half.

However, I'd bet there's a 1 in 4 chance he won't pass that physical.

As a Yankee fan would you feel the same way if the cost of Santana was only . . .Ian Kennedy

Melky Cabrera

And a top prospect

???

"In the Bergen Record, Bob Klapisch writes what he believes to be the definitive story on how the Mets ended up getting Johan Santana from the Twins.

By the way, according to Klapisch, the Mets owe a big-fat thank you to the Yankees for stepping aside at the last minute, as he writes about yesterday…

“The Twins called the Yankees and admitted surrender: Phil Hughes was no longer a prerequisite…Instead, the Twins asked for Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and a top prospect. Would the Yankees still be interested, Smith wondered? The Yankees considered the idea, but only briefly and not seriously…The Twins had waited too long…The Red Sox, in lock step with the Yankees, had essentially backed out, too…That left the Mets, who after hearing from Smith didn’t allow themselves to be bluffed.”

Wow, if that is true the Twins screwed up, but so did the Yankees. If they could have put Santana on the roster for that they should have without any hesitation. Johan Santana was the best pitcher in baseball before last year and he still put up an ERA of 3.33 and was 2nd in the league in K's with the best WHIP in the league. Maybe we all fell into the trap of finding flaws in him, but Giving up Melky, Hughes and a prospect (any prospect) is a deal you do if you are the Yankees...without question.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Indeed, one talent evaluator said that of all the combinations made available to the Twins, Tuesday's swap was the fourth or fifth best. Smith undoubtedly will tell the Twins' fan base that this was the best he could've done under the circumstances. It was either accept the Mets' swap on their terms, or lose Santana to free agency after this season.But Smith could've and should've waited longer. One key injury in spring training, and any of Santana's suitors would've come begging. But the rookie GM feared Santana wouldn't waive his no-trade clause after spring training began; Smith lost his nerve, just as he didn't have the professional intuition to deal for Hughes when he could have.

Would it have made more sense for the Twins to have taken the 2 draft picks? At the end of the first round, could they have better prospects than Gomez and Mulvey?

I doubt it. Guerra is only 18 and was rushed into high A ball. He should have been in Rookie ball but he held his own there. He's got a tremendous ceiling.

 

[Sammy3469]

Indeed, one talent evaluator said that of all the combinations made available to the Twins, Tuesday's swap was the fourth or fifth best. Smith undoubtedly will tell the Twins' fan base that this was the best he could've done under the circumstances. It was either accept the Mets' swap on their terms, or lose Santana to free agency after this season.But Smith could've and should've waited longer. One key injury in spring training, and any of Santana's suitors would've come begging. But the rookie GM feared Santana wouldn't waive his no-trade clause after spring training began; Smith lost his nerve, just as he didn't have the professional intuition to deal for Hughes when he could have.

Would it have made more sense for the Twins to have taken the 2 draft picks? At the end of the first round, could they have better prospects than Gomez and Mulvey?

Yes if you include a year of Santana...the problem with their package is that the only guy that even projects to be an All-Star caliber player is Guerra, but he's so young, you never know. Smith really screwed the pooch on this one....either of the Yanks or Sox packages back in the winter meetings were much better than this one.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Indeed, one talent evaluator said that of all the combinations made available to the Twins, Tuesday's swap was the fourth or fifth best. Smith undoubtedly will tell the Twins' fan base that this was the best he could've done under the circumstances. It was either accept the Mets' swap on their terms, or lose Santana to free agency after this season.But Smith could've and should've waited longer. One key injury in spring training, and any of Santana's suitors would've come begging. But the rookie GM feared Santana wouldn't waive his no-trade clause after spring training began; Smith lost his nerve, just as he didn't have the professional intuition to deal for Hughes when he could have.

I agree with the above, either you take the best deal early on when the sharks were circling or you hold out. I mean they easily could have had Hughes from the Yanks (the deal they asked for before accepting the Mets offer) and they also could have pulled the trigger on the deal for Hughes.If i were a Minnesota fan I would not be happy.

 

[pillowpants]

Indeed, one talent evaluator said that of all the combinations made available to the Twins, Tuesday's swap was the fourth or fifth best. Smith undoubtedly will tell the Twins' fan base that this was the best he could've done under the circumstances. It was either accept the Mets' swap on their terms, or lose Santana to free agency after this season.

But Smith could've and should've waited longer. One key injury in spring training, and any of Santana's suitors would've come begging. But the rookie GM feared Santana wouldn't waive his no-trade clause after spring training began; Smith lost his nerve, just as he didn't have the professional intuition to deal for Hughes when he could have.

Would it have made more sense for the Twins to have taken the 2 draft picks? At the end of the first round, could they have better prospects than Gomez and Mulvey?

Yes if you include a year of Santana...the problem with their package is that the only guy that even projects to be an All-Star caliber player is Guerra, but he's so young, you never know. Smith really screwed the pooch on this one....either of the Yanks or Sox packages back in the winter meetings were much better than this one.

Keeping him for this season, with a healthy Liriano, could have put the Twins in the playoffs. They didn't get any "studs" in this deal, at least ones that project to Hughes/Lester. Cabrera is better than Gomez at this point, although I believe that Gomez is more attractive than Crisp if I'm the Twins.I just don't see why the Twins would make this deal.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Rumor is 6 years for $130MM. Not bad considering. Much better than the Zito deal.

 

[DCThunder]

So the Mets come to the new Nationals Park on April 23-24. Wonder if Santana will pitch in one of those games. Late April at a new ballpark in Washington, PRICELESS!

 

[shadyridr]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

I hate to say this but Im not sure Yanks will make the playoffs. Horrible bullpen coupled with the fact that non of their starters can go more than 6 innings (except Pettitte) and Im VERY worried about our pitching staff. Yeah the youngsters are better than what we had last year but they will all be on innings counts.

 

[whoknew]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

The Tigers Pythagorean standings last year was 90-72. They scored the third most runs in the league and even with the inevitable decline of Maggs and further decline of Pudge, adding Cabrera and Renteria for Casey and Inge is a pretty big upgrade. And then you add Inge into a superutility role and that's a huge upgrade.As for pitching, they only got 1/2 a year out of Rogers and Bonderman was hurt the second half. So yes I think its entirely reasonable to think they could be better than 90 wins.Its basically a 4 team race for 3 spots -- NYY, Bos, Det and Cle.

 

[shadyridr]

Id rank the AL teams as follows:

BOS

DET

CLE

NYY

LA

SEA (if they get Bedard)

TOR

CWS

TB

KC

TEX

MIN

BAL

OAK

 

[Hov34]

Why should I pay attention to MLB again?

Mets haven't won a title since 1986. Since then "small-market" Twins, Marlins, Blue Jays, Diamondbacks and Reds have combined to win 8 titles.

1986? Great, this is 2008 and small market teams might make a splash here and there, but they don't have chance to compete with the big boys year in and year out.

Rockies and DBacks NLCS last year. Seems they were able to compete fairly well.

What part of "year in year out" do you people not understand?

Why do you come to a baseball forum to tell eveyone that you do not watch baseball? You're not so important that all of us are saying " OH NO WHERE'S HOV 34?...and how come he's not commenting on the games?"

You guys are right. I'm sorry to disturb you. Baseball is the greatest most competitive sport out there and is in no danger of loosing fans. Carry on.

 

[jestertj]

The only thing I'm angry about is Johan and his agent putting a deadline on anything. Thanks. Way to pay back the organization that plucked you from nowhere, brought you in and taught you how to throw the changeup that makes you effective. We appreciate it.

Be careful what you wish for with your big stage and big contract. The grass isn't always greener. Ask Randy Johnson. Enjoy the pressure and all the questions that come with it. Don't let the door hit ya.

As for the prospects, maybe you'll have a chance to do well in Minny. Some other players in your position previously have done okay:

Nathan

Liriano

Bonser

Guzman

Milton

etc.

 

[Koya]

The only thing I'm angry about is Johan and his agent putting a deadline on anything. Thanks. Way to pay back the organization that plucked you from nowhere, brought you in and taught you how to throw the changeup that makes you effective. We appreciate it.Be careful what you wish for with your big stage and big contract. The grass isn't always greener. Ask Randy Johnson. Enjoy the pressure and all the questions that come with it. Don't let the door hit ya.As for the prospects, maybe you'll have a chance to do well in Minny. Some other players in your position previously have done okay:NathanLirianoBonserGuzmanMiltonetc.

Not sure why all the anger at Santana... wasn't he a pretty good teamate out in Minny? So he wanted to be settled and not have the trade / free agency question hang around all year. The guy couldnt get near his value in Minny and is moving on... not his fault that the GM sat on better offers until he lost all leverage.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

The Tigers Pythagorean standings last year was 90-72. They scored the third most runs in the league and even with the inevitable decline of Maggs and further decline of Pudge, adding Cabrera and Renteria for Casey and Inge is a pretty big upgrade. And then you add Inge into a superutility role and that's a huge upgrade.As for pitching, they only got 1/2 a year out of Rogers and Bonderman was hurt the second half. So yes I think its entirely reasonable to think they could be better than 90 wins.Its basically a 4 team race for 3 spots -- NYY, Bos, Det and Cle.

 

[whoknew]

Why should I pay attention to MLB again?

Mets haven't won a title since 1986. Since then "small-market" Twins, Marlins, Blue Jays, Diamondbacks and Reds have combined to win 8 titles.

1986? Great, this is 2008 and small market teams might make a splash here and there, but they don't have chance to compete with the big boys year in and year out.

Rockies and DBacks NLCS last year. Seems they were able to compete fairly well.

What part of "year in year out" do you people not understand?

Why do you come to a baseball forum to tell eveyone that you do not watch baseball? You're not so important that all of us are saying " OH NO WHERE'S HOV 34?...and how come he's not commenting on the games?"

You guys are right. I'm sorry to disturb you. Baseball is the greatest most competitive sport out there and is in no danger of loosing fans. Carry on.

You keep making this point, but there's just NO EVIDENCE that baseball is in danger of losing fans. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

[Workhorse]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

I hate to say this but Im not sure Yanks will make the playoffs. Horrible bullpen coupled with the fact that non of their starters can go more than 6 innings (except Pettitte) and Im VERY worried about our pitching staff. Yeah the youngsters are better than what we had last year but they will all be on innings counts.

I'd also be concerned about the age of the everyday players (Starters who are at least 34 years old in '08: Jeter, Posada, Abreu, Matsui, Damon, Giambi). I'd bet on at least 2/3 of them declining in 2008. That could be a major problem for a team so reliant on run-scoring.

 

[Gopher State]

The Mets offer included players deemed to have the greatest potential. The tradeoff: The two best prospects, Gomez and Guerra, might not be ready to help for a year or two.

Gomez has blinding speed and is excellent defensively, but the jury is still out on his bat. If he hits, he could become a star. He will be given a chance to win the center field job in spring training.

Guerra, who stands 6-foot-5, has huge potential and pitched in high Class A ball last season at age 18, which doesn't happen often.

Mulvey is considered a middle-of-the-rotation prospect with Humber more of a No. 4 or 5 starter.

In the long run this might turn out to be a fairly good trade for the Twins if two the prospects turn out

 

[ooofffaaa]

The Mets offer included players deemed to have the greatest potential. The tradeoff: The two best prospects, Gomez and Guerra, might not be ready to help for a year or two.Gomez has blinding speed and is excellent defensively, but the jury is still out on his bat. If he hits, he could become a star. He will be given a chance to win the center field job in spring training.Guerra, who stands 6-foot-5, has huge potential and pitched in high Class A ball last season at age 18, which doesn't happen often.Mulvey is considered a middle-of-the-rotation prospect with Humber more of a No. 4 or 5 starter.In the long run this might turn out to be a fairly good trade for the Twins if two the prospects turn out

Fernando Martinez is the Mets best hitting prospectMike Pelfrey is their best picthing prospect.I was shocked the Mets still have both of them.The Twins have had great success in the past acquiring prospects as someone mentioned earlier . . .NathanLirianoBonserGuzmanMiltonetc.But Bill Smith is a rookie GM and had nothing to do with acquiring any of those guys.

 

[shadyridr]

The Mets offer included players deemed to have the greatest potential. The tradeoff: The two best prospects, Gomez and Guerra, might not be ready to help for a year or two.Gomez has blinding speed and is excellent defensively, but the jury is still out on his bat. If he hits, he could become a star. He will be given a chance to win the center field job in spring training.Guerra, who stands 6-foot-5, has huge potential and pitched in high Class A ball last season at age 18, which doesn't happen often.Mulvey is considered a middle-of-the-rotation prospect with Humber more of a No. 4 or 5 starter.In the long run this might turn out to be a fairly good trade for the Twins if two the prospects turn out

lot of ifs here

 

[Frostillicus]

The only thing I'm angry about is Johan and his agent putting a deadline on anything. Thanks. Way to pay back the organization that plucked you from nowhere, brought you in and taught you how to throw the changeup that makes you effective. We appreciate it.Be careful what you wish for with your big stage and big contract. The grass isn't always greener. Ask Randy Johnson. Enjoy the pressure and all the questions that come with it. Don't let the door hit ya.As for the prospects, maybe you'll have a chance to do well in Minny. Some other players in your position previously have done okay:NathanLirianoBonserGuzmanMiltonetc.

Not sure why all the anger at Santana... wasn't he a pretty good teamate out in Minny? So he wanted to be settled and not have the trade / free agency question hang around all year. The guy couldnt get near his value in Minny and is moving on... not his fault that the GM sat on better offers until he lost all leverage.

Twins fan here. I have no anger at Santana, and don't understand why anybody would.No anger at Smith either. He played the game and lost, but he had to play. It happens.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

I hate to say this but Im not sure Yanks will make the playoffs. Horrible bullpen coupled with the fact that non of their starters can go more than 6 innings (except Pettitte) and Im VERY worried about our pitching staff. Yeah the youngsters are better than what we had last year but they will all be on innings counts.

I don't see a horrible bullpen when you have Joba and Rivera (who is still effective).The middle relief will have Mussina and Farnsworth is a good middle reliever (even if only a short inning one)The offense is still excellent, although I expect less production this year as too many guys were a little over their heads...even if you got upticks from some others, I see less runs.I see playoffs

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

I hate to say this but Im not sure Yanks will make the playoffs. Horrible bullpen coupled with the fact that non of their starters can go more than 6 innings (except Pettitte) and Im VERY worried about our pitching staff. Yeah the youngsters are better than what we had last year but they will all be on innings counts.

I don't see a horrible bullpen when you have Joba and Rivera (who is still effective).The middle relief will have Mussina and Farnsworth is a good middle reliever (even if only a short inning one)The offense is still excellent, although I expect less production this year as too many guys were a little over their heads...even if you got upticks from some others, I see less runs.I see playoffs

I'll argue with you about this later but I think you are discounting the Tigers. Yankees could very well win that division but I think this could be the year Tampa makes a move in the standings. IF they do and if Toronto holds steady the AL East will be a much better division. The Central just got a little weaker with Minnesota trading Santana but the White Sox and Royals will both be better than a year ago and the Indians are not going away. the unbalanced schedule will decide who the playoff teams are and I still think the Central is the better division which plays to the Yankees advantage. Also if you didn't already know this, Kyle Farnsworth blows.

 

[whoknew]

I don't see a horrible bullpen when you have Joba and Rivera (who is still effective).The middle relief will have Mussina and Farnsworth is a good middle reliever (even if only a short inning one)The offense is still excellent, although I expect less production this year as too many guys were a little over their heads...even if you got upticks from some others, I see less runs.I see playoffs

Isn't Joba starting?

 

[Liquid Tension]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

The Tigers Pythagorean standings last year was 90-72. They scored the third most runs in the league and even with the inevitable decline of Maggs and further decline of Pudge, adding Cabrera and Renteria for Casey and Inge is a pretty big upgrade. And then you add Inge into a superutility role and that's a huge upgrade.As for pitching, they only got 1/2 a year out of Rogers and Bonderman was hurt the second half. So yes I think its entirely reasonable to think they could be better than 90 wins.Its basically a 4 team race for 3 spots -- NYY, Bos, Det and Cle.

90 is not much more than 90 (as it was said they would be hands down a top 2 team and last year that would mean around 97 wins. The Pythagorean number does not take into account one run games (not fully), plus I have noticed them being a little less accurate of late (although they are surprisingly accurate) with the middle relief sometimes getting teams killed. I am saying I think the numbers are getting more skewed than before.I agree about the 4 team race for 3 spots. of course there is usually one team that gets hit with injuries or some odd events and some new team emerges because of a hot player or 3.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

I hate to say this but Im not sure Yanks will make the playoffs. Horrible bullpen coupled with the fact that non of their starters can go more than 6 innings (except Pettitte) and Im VERY worried about our pitching staff. Yeah the youngsters are better than what we had last year but they will all be on innings counts.

I'd also be concerned about the age of the everyday players (Starters who are at least 34 years old in '08: Jeter, Posada, Abreu, Matsui, Damon, Giambi). I'd bet on at least 2/3 of them declining in 2008. That could be a major problem for a team so reliant on run-scoring.

Posada - at 35 Posada had perhaps his best year so while I would not expect him to have the same year (in fact he should have the largest drop off) the fact that guys are having great years at 35 is not that much of a concern. But, a catcher rarely does this well this late.Abreu - had a very solid 2nd half and my money is that his numbers will be better next year.Matsui - had a bad start as well, but overall I would expect him to be similar in numbers.Jeter - Was banged up all year long (he said the most little injuries he ever had) and I would expect his numbers to be about the sameGiambi - Not much of a factor, but numbers slightly worse is reasonable and he could do better.ARod - Have to assume a drop off from the year, but not significantCano - I see Cano having a better year. if his discipline gets better he could be amazing.Melky - I would expect an uptick in power to make his overall numbers a little better. his weakness from the right side of the plate is discouraging.Damon - had a big drop off last year, but I don't see him getting worse this year, in fact I would say a slight uptick would make sense (not much though)Shelly Duncan can help the team against lefties off the bench.So overall, I see a slight drop off, but not significant enough to see them drop from the top offense and most certainly not from the top 3.The pitching was crazy last year with new starters every day it seemed. It has to be better this year (especially with a healthy Hughes along with Hughes and Job in the pen) I am not the eternal optimist as I criticize the Yankees players a lot, but I see a good team

 

[shadyridr]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

I hate to say this but Im not sure Yanks will make the playoffs. Horrible bullpen coupled with the fact that non of their starters can go more than 6 innings (except Pettitte) and Im VERY worried about our pitching staff. Yeah the youngsters are better than what we had last year but they will all be on innings counts.

I don't see a horrible bullpen when you have Joba and Rivera (who is still effective).The middle relief will have Mussina and Farnsworth is a good middle reliever (even if only a short inning one)The offense is still excellent, although I expect less production this year as too many guys were a little over their heads...even if you got upticks from some others, I see less runs.I see playoffs

Umm Mussina AND Joba are not gonna both be in the bullpen. The rotation right now looks like this: Wang, Pettitte, Hughes, 2 of Mussina/Kennedy/Chamberlain. Nobody knows the plans for Joba just yet. Im hoping he starts but I have a strong feeling they start him in the pen.

 

[jestertj]

The Mets offer included players deemed to have the greatest potential. The tradeoff: The two best prospects, Gomez and Guerra, might not be ready to help for a year or two.Gomez has blinding speed and is excellent defensively, but the jury is still out on his bat. If he hits, he could become a star. He will be given a chance to win the center field job in spring training.Guerra, who stands 6-foot-5, has huge potential and pitched in high Class A ball last season at age 18, which doesn't happen often.Mulvey is considered a middle-of-the-rotation prospect with Humber more of a No. 4 or 5 starter.In the long run this might turn out to be a fairly good trade for the Twins if two the prospects turn out

Fernando Martinez is the Mets best hitting prospectMike Pelfrey is their best picthing prospect.I was shocked the Mets still have both of them.The Twins have had great success in the past acquiring prospects as someone mentioned earlier . . .NathanLirianoBonserGuzmanMiltonetc.But Bill Smith is a rookie GM and had nothing to do with acquiring any of those guys.

I'm not sure what he did or didn't do in regards to those players. The people scouting them had to do a good job, as did the people coaching them once they arrived. It's more the organization as a whole.

 

[jestertj]

The only thing I'm angry about is Johan and his agent putting a deadline on anything. Thanks. Way to pay back the organization that plucked you from nowhere, brought you in and taught you how to throw the changeup that makes you effective. We appreciate it.Be careful what you wish for with your big stage and big contract. The grass isn't always greener. Ask Randy Johnson. Enjoy the pressure and all the questions that come with it. Don't let the door hit ya.As for the prospects, maybe you'll have a chance to do well in Minny. Some other players in your position previously have done okay:NathanLirianoBonserGuzmanMiltonetc.

Not sure why all the anger at Santana... wasn't he a pretty good teamate out in Minny? So he wanted to be settled and not have the trade / free agency question hang around all year. The guy couldnt get near his value in Minny and is moving on... not his fault that the GM sat on better offers until he lost all leverage.

Twins fan here. I have no anger at Santana, and don't understand why anybody would.No anger at Smith either. He played the game and lost, but he had to play. It happens.

Can't fault the guy for wanting to leave, or chasing $150M+. Have a problem with the player/agent imposing deadlines.It's not like the team was doing anything to hurt him. They offered him more money than they had ever offered any player and more than many thought they ever would. At worst, he walks after the season and gets paid anyway.Smith appears to be willing to take chances.

 

[Gopher State]

The folks who should have felt like idiots Tuesday were John Henry, Theo Epstein, Hank Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman, because they allowed their Red Sox and their Yankees to sit on the sideline as the Mets stole Santana.

The Red Sox could have surrounded center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury with some nobodies, and the Yankees could have done the same with pitcher Phil Hughes, and beat out the Mets for Santana.

The Red Sox chose to hoard Ellsbury, a lefthanded hitter who looked good for a month, rather than make themselves odds-on favorites to repeat as World Series champions.

The Yankees chose to hoard Hughes, a righthanded control pitcher who can throw hard enough to break a pane of glass, rather than put themselves back in position to overtake the Red Sox in the East Division and the American League.

Minneapolis Star & Tribune story.

I agree the Yankees and Red Sox were shorted in this deal as much as the Twins.

Mets got a good deal, and maybe punched their ticket to a championship

 

[shadyridr]

The folks who should have felt like idiots Tuesday were John Henry, Theo Epstein, Hank Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman, because they allowed their Red Sox and their Yankees to sit on the sideline as the Mets stole Santana.The Red Sox could have surrounded center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury with some nobodies, and the Yankees could have done the same with pitcher Phil Hughes, and beat out the Mets for Santana.The Red Sox chose to hoard Ellsbury, a lefthanded hitter who looked good for a month, rather than make themselves odds-on favorites to repeat as World Series champions.The Yankees chose to hoard Hughes, a righthanded control pitcher who can throw hard enough to break a pane of glass, rather than put themselves back in position to overtake the Red Sox in the East Division and the American League.Minneapolis Star & Tribune story.I agree the Yankees and Red Sox were shorted in this deal as much as the Twins.Mets got a good deal, and maybe punched their ticket to a championship

Why should the Yanks give up Hughes and the Sox give up Ellsbury when the Mets didnt give up a single player in that class? Now if you wanna argue that the Yanks shouldve gave up Kennedy, Cabrera, and a another prospect, which is the rumor that Smith called last second to ask for then yes I agree, they shouldve done that.

 

[ooofffaaa]

The folks who should have felt like idiots Tuesday were John Henry, Theo Epstein, Hank Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman, because they allowed their Red Sox and their Yankees to sit on the sideline as the Mets stole Santana.The Red Sox could have surrounded center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury with some nobodies, and the Yankees could have done the same with pitcher Phil Hughes, and beat out the Mets for Santana.The Red Sox chose to hoard Ellsbury, a lefthanded hitter who looked good for a month, rather than make themselves odds-on favorites to repeat as World Series champions.The Yankees chose to hoard Hughes, a righthanded control pitcher who can throw hard enough to break a pane of glass, rather than put themselves back in position to overtake the Red Sox in the East Division and the American League.Minneapolis Star & Tribune story.I agree the Yankees and Red Sox were shorted in this deal as much as the Twins.Mets got a good deal, and maybe punched their ticket to a championship

Now if you wanna argue that the Yanks shouldve gave up Kennedy, Cabrera, and a another prospect, which is the rumor that Smith called last second to ask for then yes I agree, they shouldve done that.

Who will the Yankees most likey regret passing on a few years down the road . . . . . Beltran or Santana?

 

[shadyridr]

The folks who should have felt like idiots Tuesday were John Henry, Theo Epstein, Hank Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman, because they allowed their Red Sox and their Yankees to sit on the sideline as the Mets stole Santana.The Red Sox could have surrounded center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury with some nobodies, and the Yankees could have done the same with pitcher Phil Hughes, and beat out the Mets for Santana.The Red Sox chose to hoard Ellsbury, a lefthanded hitter who looked good for a month, rather than make themselves odds-on favorites to repeat as World Series champions.The Yankees chose to hoard Hughes, a righthanded control pitcher who can throw hard enough to break a pane of glass, rather than put themselves back in position to overtake the Red Sox in the East Division and the American League.Minneapolis Star & Tribune story.I agree the Yankees and Red Sox were shorted in this deal as much as the Twins.Mets got a good deal, and maybe punched their ticket to a championship

Now if you wanna argue that the Yanks shouldve gave up Kennedy, Cabrera, and a another prospect, which is the rumor that Smith called last second to ask for then yes I agree, they shouldve done that.

Who will the Yankees most likey regret passing on a few years down the road . . . . . Beltran or Santana?

Thats a good question. Like I said we dont know 100% for sure what offers were made etc. But I think the Yanks have plenty of offense and Beltran isnt on the same level as Santana IMO.

 

[Sammy3469]

Thank God this mother####er is out of the AL Central.

My thoughts exactly. And I'm even happier that he didn't go to the Yanks or Sox. On paper, Tigers and Red Sox are hands down the top two in the AL this year.

Hands down? More to follow as the season gets closer, but dismissing the team that scored about 100 runs more than the the next best offense is ?; especially when you consider how much better the starting pitching will be this upcoming year for the Yankees (from memory I think the Yanks won 50 games after the All Star Break) Yanks were 18-21 in one run games.Last year Detroit won 88 games and they were 27-19 in one run games. Even when you take additions to their team, do you really think Detroit is much more than a 90 win team, let alone "hands down" top 2?I think the Yanks and Boston are better than Detroit...and Cleveland and the LA are good too.

I hate to say this but Im not sure Yanks will make the playoffs. Horrible bullpen coupled with the fact that non of their starters can go more than 6 innings (except Pettitte) and Im VERY worried about our pitching staff. Yeah the youngsters are better than what we had last year but they will all be on innings counts.

I don't see a horrible bullpen when you have Joba and Rivera (who is still effective).The middle relief will have Mussina and Farnsworth is a good middle reliever (even if only a short inning one)The offense is still excellent, although I expect less production this year as too many guys were a little over their heads...even if you got upticks from some others, I see less runs.I see playoffs

Umm Mussina AND Joba are not gonna both be in the bullpen. The rotation right now looks like this: Wang, Pettitte, Hughes, 2 of Mussina/Kennedy/Chamberlain. Nobody knows the plans for Joba just yet. Im hoping he starts but I have a strong feeling they start him in the pen.

Plus you have no clue how any of Hughes, Mussina, Kennedy, or Joba (as a starter) will actually do over a full season. You could easily end up with a situation like last year where Mussina is done, Kennedy proves to be below average, Joba isn't an effective starter and had to go back to the pen, and Hughes can only pitch 150 innings. Hell I think that scenario is just as likely as they all end up as OK this year. As to the Sox and Yankees, I don't think either wants to pay 25 million a year for in a pitcher's 33, 34, and 35 years when they both have more than enough depth in the farms systems.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

The folks who should have felt like idiots Tuesday were John Henry, Theo Epstein, Hank Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman, because they allowed their Red Sox and their Yankees to sit on the sideline as the Mets stole Santana.The Red Sox could have surrounded center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury with some nobodies, and the Yankees could have done the same with pitcher Phil Hughes, and beat out the Mets for Santana.The Red Sox chose to hoard Ellsbury, a lefthanded hitter who looked good for a month, rather than make themselves odds-on favorites to repeat as World Series champions.The Yankees chose to hoard Hughes, a righthanded control pitcher who can throw hard enough to break a pane of glass, rather than put themselves back in position to overtake the Red Sox in the East Division and the American League.Minneapolis Star & Tribune story.I agree the Yankees and Red Sox were shorted in this deal as much as the Twins.Mets got a good deal, and maybe punched their ticket to a championship

Why should the Yanks give up Hughes and the Sox give up Ellsbury when the Mets didnt give up a single player in that class? Now if you wanna argue that the Yanks shouldve gave up Kennedy, Cabrera, and a another prospect, which is the rumor that Smith called last second to ask for then yes I agree, they shouldve done that.

No kidding. And I think this guy is underselling Hughes just a hair.

 

[JaxBill]

So any word on the physical / contract negotiations?

 

[Koya]

From Metsblog.com:

...posted by Matthew Cerrone...

According to multiple reports, including this site, the Mets remain confident that a contract will be worked out with Johan Santana before Friday’s 5 pm deadline.

…from what i can gather, Omar Minaya, Jeff Wilpon and John Ricco met with santana’s agents most of the day and through the evening yesterday in New York City…

According to the Pioneer Press, the Mets and Santana’s agent discussed a six-year deal worth more than $150 million, including a $7 million signing bonus and performance incentives.

…as i wrote last night, i believe the final hurdle most likely deals with the seventh-year of the contract, and whether it must be guaranteed or be an easily attained option…my bet is it ends up being an option, but time will tell…

In Newsday, according to Ken Davidoff, Minaya has told ‘industry friends’ that he is ‘at peace’ with what Santana and his agents are likely to request.

 

[Koya]

In a report for ESPN.com, citing ‘sources familiar with the discussions,’ Jayson Stark explains that the Mets and Johan Santana remain far enough apart that a deal is unlikely to be reached until at least Friday.

Stark adds, “The sources also left open the possibility that the talks could collapse without an agreement, though the odds of that appear remote.”

…do you have to use that word, jayson…come on now…

According to Stark’s sources, Santana and his agents are still pushing for a six-year extension in the range of $150 million, while the Mets want to limit the guaranteed portion of the extension to five years.

Certainly a seed of concern there, but I am not getting worked up just yet. The fact is, I don't see anyone out there that even in the FA market would give Santana much if anything more than the Mets will eventually settle for. Lets take the worse case scenario that the Mets and Santana do NOT come to an agreement...

Yeah, it would look bad for the Mets, but it also meant that they would not yeild and really overpay even for the top pitcher in the game (it would suck, dont get me wrong)... they could always get back into the negotiations if Santana hit the open market but how would their offer be better

 

[Koya]

In a report for ESPN.com, citing ‘sources familiar with the discussions,’ Jayson Stark explains that the Mets and Johan Santana remain far enough apart that a deal is unlikely to be reached until at least Friday.

Stark adds, “The sources also left open the possibility that the talks could collapse without an agreement, though the odds of that appear remote.”

…do you have to use that word, jayson…come on now…

According to Stark’s sources, Santana and his agents are still pushing for a six-year extension in the range of $150 million, while the Mets want to limit the guaranteed portion of the extension to five years.

Certainly a seed of concern there, but I am not getting worked up just yet. The fact is, I don't see anyone out there that even in the FA market would give Santana much if anything more than the Mets will eventually settle for. Lets take the worse case scenario that the Mets and Santana do NOT come to an agreement...

Yeah, it would look bad for the Mets, but it also meant that they would not yeild and really overpay even for the top pitcher in the game (it would suck, dont get me wrong)... they could always get back into the negotiations if Santana hit the open market but how would their offer be better then, than it would be now?

Santana would have to go back to Minny where it would certainly be an awkward and uncomfortable season unless/until he were traded - BUT, who is going to trade for Santana if the Mets and he can't agree to a contract. It seems Boston and the Yanks are LESS likely to approach what Santana wants, and who the heck else is going to put up those numbers?

So while it seems a little dangerous game of chicken for the mets here, Santana has as much to lose as anyone if they can not come to an agreement.

For those reasons alone, I don't see the deal not getting done... but there may be a little gamesmanship and nailbiting for those of us used to being burned by the Mets.

 

[ooofffaaa]

Typical Mets.

Nothing is ever easy and it looks like we have a Freddy Coupon sighting.

 

[Koya]

Typical Mets.Nothing is ever easy and it looks like we have a Freddy Coupon sighting.

Huh? Santana is looking for a guaranteed SEVENTH year. I can't blame that on Freddy. I think this is all Minaya, and I think both sides have too much to gain and too much to lose not to get this done.As I noted, what would Santana's options be if the Mets dont sign him? A miserable time trying to get re-traded when the Yanks bowed out , the Sox didnt step to the plate, and no other team, including those to, seem willing to pay even what the Mets would offer.