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The Justice System (1 Viewer)

ren hoek

Footballguy
Just a general thread for the legal system.  We have the 'cops killed ____' thread in the other board, but there's not really one for things pertaining to incarceration, draconian sentencing laws, prison labor, etc.  

 

Johnnymac

Footballguy
The "justice" system in this country is broken, just like everything else.

They should blow the whole thing up and start from scratch.

 

Johnnymac

Footballguy
I've found it odd that we are known as the land of the free while at the same time incarcerating more people than any other country on earth, by alot.

 

KCitons

Footballguy
I've found it odd that we are known as the land of the free while at the same time incarcerating more people than any other country on earth, by alot.
Does that mean that freedom leads to undesirable actions against each other?

Can you have one without the other?

 

Johnnymac

Footballguy
Does that mean that freedom leads to undesirable actions against each other?

Can you have one without the other?
We incarcerate far too many people, period.

I just think it's a bit much that we call ourselves the land of the free.  It's false,.

 

KCitons

Footballguy
We incarcerate far too many people, period.

I just think it's a bit much that we call ourselves the land of the free.  It's false,.
Actually you can't say that we are the land of the free and have laws? That's an oxymoron. Where we fall on the incarceration level is up for debate. Do we have too many laws, or too many law breakers? 

 

Johnnymac

Footballguy
Actually you can't say that we are the land of the free and have laws? That's an oxymoron. Where we fall on the incarceration level is up for debate. Do we have too many laws, or too many law breakers? 
Too many laws is the bigger of the two problems.  Nobody should be locked up for drugs, thats a medical issue, not a criminal one.  That is just one example.

Now, why do we have so many criminals is another debate.

 

KCitons

Footballguy
Does it have to be either/or?
I don't know. I think the more freedom you have the more people can be negatively effected. Doesn't the gun regulation thread address this exact thing? If we removed speeding laws, would there be a negative effect on more people? I guess it depends on how you define land of the free. 

 

KCitons

Footballguy
Too many laws is the bigger of the two problems.  Nobody should be locked up for drugs, thats a medical issue, not a criminal one.  That is just one example.

Now, why do we have so many criminals is another debate.
Can you expand on this? I think we disagree, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. 

 

badmojo1006

Footballguy
I don't know. I think the more freedom you have the more people can be negatively effected. Doesn't the gun regulation thread address this exact thing? If we removed speeding laws, would there be a negative effect on more people? I guess it depends on how you define land of the free. 
It is complicated. There are freedoms I give up for the safety and betterment of the community

 

KCitons

Footballguy
It is complicated. There are freedoms I give up for the safety and betterment of the community
Right. I think the line is different for everyone. Which makes it difficult to please all the people, all the time.

But, I will agree if we are going to reform prisoners, then we shouldn't do it half ###. 

 

urbanhack

Fight The Power!
Can you expand on this? I think we disagree, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. 
Cannabis, specifically.  It shouldn't be criminalized, unless you are dealing illegally.  No one should be put in jail or charged for anything under an ounce, period.  All cocaine related charges should carry the same penalties.  Crack shouldn't be treated different than powder.   

 

badmojo1006

Footballguy
Right. I think the line is different for everyone. Which makes it difficult to please all the people, all the time.

But, I will agree if we are going to reform prisoners, then we shouldn't do it half ###. 
Do you mean prisoners or prisons or both? I think both are needed

 

KCitons

Footballguy
Cannabis, specifically.  It shouldn't be criminalized, unless you are dealing illegally.  No one should be put in jail or charged for anything under an ounce, period.  All cocaine related charges should carry the same penalties.  Crack shouldn't be treated different than powder.   
This sounds like you want to legalize cocaine and crack? 

While I agree with the first two sentences, I disagree with the last three. This country imposes laws to impose behavior that benefits everyone. Cannabis laws are changing. So I would expect incarceration numbers to decrease over the next decade. 

 

ren hoek

Footballguy
Actually you can't say that we are the land of the free and have laws? That's an oxymoron.
I know you're a lone wolf here, so I'll try to be amicable.  He didn't say we can't have laws.  He said we incarcerate too many people, which is just plain fact.  Locking up massive swaths of people into a system where they effectively serve as corporate slave labor is about as antithetical to 'free' as it gets.  

What are your thoughts on alcohol prohibition, run by gangs and black markets with tons of violence and death, versus the regulated markets we have today?  Cannabis legalization in Colorado, which has netted billions in revenue for the state versus blowing billions of dollars locking up minorities in overcrowded prisons?  It seems selfevident that those policies are more sensible than criminalizing them.  

 

parasaurolophus

Footballguy
Cannabis, specifically.  It shouldn't be criminalized, unless you are dealing illegally.  No one should be put in jail or charged for anything under an ounce, period.  All cocaine related charges should carry the same penalties.  Crack shouldn't be treated different than powder.   
This. 

 

KCitons

Footballguy
I know you're a lone wolf here, so I'll try to be amicable.  He didn't say we can't have laws.  He said we incarcerate too many people, which is just plain fact.  Locking up massive swaths of people into a system where they effectively serve as corporate slave labor is about as antithetical to 'free' as it gets.  

What are your thoughts on alcohol prohibition, run by gangs and black markets with tons of violence and death, versus the regulated markets we have today?  Cannabis legalization in Colorado, which has netted billions in revenue for the state versus blowing billions of dollars locking up minorities in overcrowded prisons?  It seems selfevident that those policies are more sensible than criminalizing them.  
Contrary to popular belief, I'm not for alcohol prohibition. Even though I've compared gun regulations to alcohol regulations. I do want people to be responsible for their own actions, when they show that they can't I expect the laws to exact penalties to change that behavior. 

Also, believe it or not, I voted for Gary Johnson because of his stance on legalizing marijuana. It had much less to do with either of the other candidates. This isn't an easy thing to do, because I don't derive any pleasure from the use of cannabis. And witness a lot of family turmoil due to my brothers use of drugs during my childhood. It would be easy for me to rail against any changes. But, I see the overall benefits of legalized cannabis. 

The question becomes, what laws do we enforce? What laws should we do away with because they don't cause any harm to anyone except the person performing the act. That would be seat belt laws, or prostitution. Where do you draw the line? 

 

parasaurolophus

Footballguy
I know drug charges are mentioned the most and are pretty easy for most on this forum to agree on. If we look at the 1.3 million in state prisons, drug possession is 45k of those. What would be the next thing to go after to make a dent and how would we do it? 

 

urbanhack

Fight The Power!
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on that point. 
There is nothing to disagree about.  I said this: “All cocaine related charges should carry the same penalties.  Crack shouldn't be treated different than powder.”

How you think this means I want to decriminalize is beyond me.  

 

KCitons

Footballguy
There is nothing to disagree about.  I said this: “All cocaine related charges should carry the same penalties.  Crack shouldn't be treated different than powder.”

How you think this means I want to decriminalize is beyond me.  
It doesn't mean that. It means that I think they should not carry the same penalties. 

Which is why we can just agree to disagree. 

 

toshiba

Footballguy
There is nothing to disagree about.  I said this: “All cocaine related charges should carry the same penalties.  Crack shouldn't be treated different than powder.”

How you think this means I want to decriminalize is beyond me.  
It doesn't mean that. It means that I think they should not carry the same penalties. 

Which is why we can just agree to disagree. 
I’m sorry if I missed this part of the conversation, but what about the make up of each drug would make you think they should not carry the same penalty.

 

KCitons

Footballguy
I’m sorry if I missed this part of the conversation, but what about the make up of each drug would make you think they should not carry the same penalty.
Are you following me from thread to thread? j/k

I think it comes down to the effects of the drug. If we want to allow people the use of those drugs, then legalize and regulate them. Until that time, they are illegal.

If I had to use a comparison. (and I'm reluctant to do so) I would compare it to the proposed gun laws on certain weapons or the penalties for different blood alcohol levels when it comes to DUI penalties. 

 
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urbanhack

Fight The Power!
I think it comes down to the effects of the drug. If we want to allow people the use of those drugs, then legalize and regulate them. Until that time, they are illegal.
You didn't answer his question.   You really don't directly answer or address many people's questions.  You seem to always put your own slant on it.   

 

KCitons

Footballguy
You didn't answer his question.   You really don't directly answer or address many people's questions.  You seem to always put your own slant on it.   
??? 

Where did you (or anyone else) ask a question that I didn't answer? 

If you're referring to the @toshiba's question about the make up of the drug. I answered that by saying it comes down to the effects of a specific drug. Not sure how you see that as not answering. 

 

toshiba

Footballguy
I’m sorry if I missed this part of the conversation, but what about the make up of each drug would make you think they should not carry the same penalty.
Are you following me from thread to thread? j/k

I think it comes down to the effects of the drug. If we want to allow people the use of those drugs, then legalize and regulate them. Until that time, they are illegal.

If I had to use a comparison. (and I'm reluctant to do so) I would compare it to the proposed gun laws on certain weapons or the penalties for different blood alcohol levels when it comes to DUI penalties. 
I don't think you are wrong that we shouldn't differentiate, but in curious what is the reason for cocaine versus crack?

 

KCitons

Footballguy
I don't think you are wrong that we shouldn't differentiate, but in curious what is the reason for cocaine versus crack?
Sorry, I took your statement as not differentiating between cannabis and cocaine. Not the difference between cocaine and crack. I don't know the difference between the latter two, so I can't answer that. 

 

Dedfin

Footballguy
urbanhack said:
You didn't answer his question.   You really don't directly answer or address many people's questions.  You seem to always put your own slant on it.   
Why bother?

 

Mene

Footballguy
parasaurolophus said:
I know drug charges are mentioned the most and are pretty easy for most on this forum to agree on. If we look at the 1.3 million in state prisons, drug possession is 45k of those. What would be the next thing to go after to make a dent and how would we do it? 
This is a good point.  I want to see drug possession decriminalized, like most.  I want to see cannabis legalized, again, like most.   But that doesn't make a big dent in the prison population.  Reducing recidivism rates is what would do that, and in order to reduce recidivism, we need to re-think our handling of prisoners.  The current system does little to nothing to rehabilitate these people.  If anything, it takes them out of a bad situation and puts them in to a borderline inhumane one.  We need to use prison as a means to possibly change these peoples lives for the better.  Teach them some skills, provide them some education, attempt to identify and address any mental health issues.  In my opinion, prison has failed if when we release an inmate, they are not better prepared for life than when they went in.  We need a system that takes a criminal in, but releases a productive member of society when it's finished with them.  Prison is basically a storage system right now, and that is an awful way to handle crime.  It just creates the endless loop we have right now, where people become career criminals, in and out of the justice system endlessly, at a significant cost to the taxpayers, and society at large.  

 

CletiusMaximus

Footballguy
The "justice" system in this country is broken, just like everything else.

They should blow the whole thing up and start from scratch.
Sure. Of course, the “start from scratch” part is where it gets difficult.  Most of the answers start with “more money.” 

 

Johnnymac

Footballguy
Can you expand on this? I think we disagree, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. 
My opinion is that drugs should be legalized, ALL drugs.  It is up to the individual to make the decision to use, not the state.  I own 100% of my body and I dont like a government telling me what I can and cannot put into it.  If I want to do a line a coke in  the privacy of my own home I should be allowed to do that without criminal repercussion.  This may be "out there" thinking to most, but I feel like most people dont even realize how much they are controlled by the government.

 

Sinn Fein

Footballguy
My opinion is that drugs should be legalized, ALL drugs.  It is up to the individual to make the decision to use, not the state.  I own 100% of my body and I dont like a government telling me what I can and cannot put into it.  If I want to do a line a coke in  the privacy of my own home I should be allowed to do that without criminal repercussion.  This may be "out there" thinking to most, but I feel like most people dont even realize how much they are controlled by the government.
Its never that simple - I agree with you in concept.  But, the reality is that drugs, and alcohol, and a whole host of other things, have a societal cost over and above the individual costs of any given vice.

Governments exists, in theory, to protect the society.  So, we say, that we don't want a nation of coke heads - as that would impact the health costs, the safety of others, worker productivity, and would presumably have an overall negative impact on the economy, and social fabric of the country as we spend money on non-productive things, and families probably become more difficult to keep together.

The really hard part is figuring out where to draw that line - such that it is not simply a moral issue, and truly a cost-benefit issue.  Those are hard things to figure out, and a lot of people are morally opposed before you ever get to that analysis.

 

ren hoek

Footballguy
Thing is, we already have empirical data showing that treating drugs as a health issue rather than a criminal one is demonstrably better for society.  Portugal decriminalized all drugs 10 years ago, invested in a treatment system for problem users and addicts, and drug abuse fell by half.  

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/#29316b273001

As far as legalization goes, it really isn’t anyone’s place to say what a user puts in their own body, so long as it doesn’t affect anyone else.  It’s not my place to tell someone they can’t consume caffeine, or painkillers, or alcohol, or any number of harmful substances.  

People are going to do drugs either way; it can be left to violent, costly black markets and an expansive prison system, or peaceful over the counter markets and a conscious healthcare system.  If we’re going to raise the spectre of healthcare costs to society to allow that, might as well start banning Big Macs while we’re at it.  

 

KCitons

Footballguy
My opinion is that drugs should be legalized, ALL drugs.  It is up to the individual to make the decision to use, not the state.  I own 100% of my body and I dont like a government telling me what I can and cannot put into it.  If I want to do a line a coke in  the privacy of my own home I should be allowed to do that without criminal repercussion.  This may be "out there" thinking to most, but I feel like most people dont even realize how much they are controlled by the government.
How does anyone know if you do a line of coke in the privacy of your own home? 

 

Johnnymac

Footballguy
How does anyone know if you do a line of coke in the privacy of your own home? 
I have to source it somewhere.  I dont know how to make coke.  If I went to the store and purchased it, nobody would care.

I dont do coke, my point is that I should be able to if I so desire.  I cant do that now without breaking the law.

 

KCitons

Footballguy
Johnnymac said:
I have to source it somewhere.  I dont know how to make coke.  If I went to the store and purchased it, nobody would care.

I dont do coke, my point is that I should be able to if I so desire.  I cant do that now without breaking the law.
Sorry. Your complaint is that you can't do a line at home. Now, it's that you can't buy it legally. I can't just walk into a store and buy my blood pressure medicine either. Why not? What is the purpose for making me go to the dr every 6 months to renew? 

I know the benefits of taking my blood pressure medicine, what are the medical benefits of doing coke?

 

Johnnymac

Footballguy
Sorry. Your complaint is that you can't do a line at home. Now, it's that you can't buy it legally. I can't just walk into a store and buy my blood pressure medicine either. Why not? What is the purpose for making me go to the dr every 6 months to renew? 

I know the benefits of taking my blood pressure medicine, what are the medical benefits of doing coke?
I realize my way of thinking is not "normal" per say.  It requires you to think outside the box I guess.

My argument is for personal liberty and there are millions of people locked up in this country because we do NOT have personal liberty.

I cant do coke, marijuana, acid, mushrooms, etc because all of those things are against the law.  There should not be laws against drug use.  Its a personal decision to use, not the governments.  Now I understand if I use these drugs and hurt someone else in the process, I should be punished.  I'm not going to use drugs and then go on a joyride in my car, or wave a pistol around, etc.  I would use in my home by myself.  I cant do that now WITHOUT breaking the law.

 

parasaurolophus

Footballguy
I realize my way of thinking is not "normal" per say.  It requires you to think outside the box I guess.

My argument is for personal liberty and there are millions of people locked up in this country because we do NOT have personal liberty.

I cant do coke, marijuana, acid, mushrooms, etc because all of those things are against the law.  There should not be laws against drug use.  Its a personal decision to use, not the governments.  Now I understand if I use these drugs and hurt someone else in the process, I should be punished.  I'm not going to use drugs and then go on a joyride in my car, or wave a pistol around, etc.  I would use in my home by myself.  I cant do that now WITHOUT breaking the law.
This is simply not true. Here is a breakdown of offenses. Maybe you are just being hyperbolic. 

I pretty much fully agree with your point about drugs, but it is a much smaller piece of the pie than what most people think and is the low hanging fruit that everybody wants to discuss.

 

parasaurolophus

Footballguy
This is a good point.  I want to see drug possession decriminalized, like most.  I want to see cannabis legalized, again, like most.   But that doesn't make a big dent in the prison population.  Reducing recidivism rates is what would do that, and in order to reduce recidivism, we need to re-think our handling of prisoners.  The current system does little to nothing to rehabilitate these people.  If anything, it takes them out of a bad situation and puts them in to a borderline inhumane one.  We need to use prison as a means to possibly change these peoples lives for the better.  Teach them some skills, provide them some education, attempt to identify and address any mental health issues.  In my opinion, prison has failed if when we release an inmate, they are not better prepared for life than when they went in.  We need a system that takes a criminal in, but releases a productive member of society when it's finished with them.  Prison is basically a storage system right now, and that is an awful way to handle crime.  It just creates the endless loop we have right now, where people become career criminals, in and out of the justice system endlessly, at a significant cost to the taxpayers, and society at large.  
Been meaning to reply to this... 

The bold is just so important. There are so many things that could be done too that people dont really think about. Find ways to partner with local high schools so people can leave prison with a diploma, not a GED. Make sure when they leave prison that they have completed driver's ed and actually have a path to a driver's license. Find ways to give them actual skills. I have zero problems with using their labor if they get something in return for their future.  

People always laugh when I bring up the drivers ed stuff, but the lack of a valid driver's license combined with no diploma has such a disastrous effect on the poor. 

 

parasaurolophus

Footballguy
interesting link
I will admit I didnt verify the individual numbers, only the totals for state and local. That seemed to match up everywhere. I liked the pie display of it and figured if the totals were accurate the rest would be too. I apologize if it is inaccurate or some weird right wing publication. 

 

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