The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (4 Viewers)

[thecatch]

Is he wanting to do a civil litigation practice? Litigation seems to quickly be turning into an accessory practice at BigLaw. Sure, they’ll have litigators to service corporate clients but they won’t be the power brokers. If I were a litigator coming out, I’d be looking at high end litigation boutiques where I could possibly hit the long ball. But I would absolutely listen to @krista4 as she is way more dialed in than I am on pretty much every angle of this.

Some of those super high end smaller shops will beat BigLaw clerkship bonuses too. I can't remember the name, but there was a place in DC a few years back that was paying close to double the market rate IIRC.

 

[Zow]

Too bad there's no one on this board who worked at Skadden and Kirkland in Chicago. That person might have thoughts.

That person sounds really smart. I doubt any of us on a fantasy football board meet that standard. At least none of us footballguys.

 

[The_Man]

Is he wanting to do a civil litigation practice? Litigation seems to quickly be turning into an accessory practice at BigLaw. Sure, they’ll have litigators to service corporate clients but they won’t be the power brokers. If I were a litigator coming out, I’d be looking at high end litigation boutiques where I could possibly hit the long ball. But I would absolutely listen to @krista4 as she is way more dialed in than I am on pretty much every angle of this.

I think he honestly doesn't know what he wants to do. He likes the clerkship a lot but one of his takeaways has been, it's just a job like anything else, so if that's the case he might as well go to the job where he gets paid the most until he figures out whether or not there's something he is genuinely interested in pursuing. He actually likes bankruptcy and interviewed with the US Bankruptcy Trustee as part of the DOJ Honors process but got an offer only from Civil Litigation.

He's 27, has no debt and his girlfriend of 8 years broke up with him over the summer. My advice has generally been, go back to Chicago which you love and where most of your friends are, make a ton of money and have fun being single for like 3 years, and then at 30 you can have $300K in the bank and do whatever you want with the rest of your life. But I am very appreciative to have some people with actual knowledge to supplement my non-lawyerly recommendations

 

[krista4]

If he's truly interested in bankruptcy, then Kirkland is the place to go. Jamie Sprayregen built that practice from literally nothing to be the best in the world, and even though he retired earlier this year, it would remain the pre-eminent firm for that practice.

 

[bigbottom]

Is he wanting to do a civil litigation practice? Litigation seems to quickly be turning into an accessory practice at BigLaw. Sure, they’ll have litigators to service corporate clients but they won’t be the power brokers. If I were a litigator coming out, I’d be looking at high end litigation boutiques where I could possibly hit the long ball. But I would absolutely listen to @krista4 as she is way more dialed in than I am on pretty much every angle of this.

I think he honestly doesn't know what he wants to do. He likes the clerkship a lot but one of his takeaways has been, it's just a job like anything else, so if that's the case he might as well go to the job where he gets paid the most until he figures out whether or not there's something he is genuinely interested in pursuing. He actually likes bankruptcy and interviewed with the US Bankruptcy Trustee as part of the DOJ Honors process but got an offer only from Civil Litigation.

He's 27, has no debt and his girlfriend of 8 years broke up with him over the summer. My advice has generally been, go back to Chicago which you love and where most of your friends are, make a ton of money and have fun being single for like 3 years, and then at 30 you can have $300K in the bank and do whatever you want with the rest of your life. But I am very appreciative to have some people with actual knowledge to supplement my non-lawyerly recommendations

Hmmm. I have a few thoughts.

1) Ambivalence about the job tends to lead to a miserable experience if you pursue a position that is long hours and high pressure.

2) If you find yourself in No. 1 above (your job is miserable), it can be quite difficult to “have fun”, particularly because you have minimal free time.

3) It generally takes a modicum of self-discipline to save up a ton of money when you are working in an expensive city.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Is he wanting to do a civil litigation practice? Litigation seems to quickly be turning into an accessory practice at BigLaw. Sure, they’ll have litigators to service corporate clients but they won’t be the power brokers. If I were a litigator coming out, I’d be looking at high end litigation boutiques where I could possibly hit the long ball. But I would absolutely listen to @krista4 as she is way more dialed in than I am on pretty much every angle of this.

I think he honestly doesn't know what he wants to do. He likes the clerkship a lot but one of his takeaways has been, it's just a job like anything else, so if that's the case he might as well go to the job where he gets paid the most until he figures out whether or not there's something he is genuinely interested in pursuing. He actually likes bankruptcy and interviewed with the US Bankruptcy Trustee as part of the DOJ Honors process but got an offer only from Civil Litigation.

He's 27, has no debt and his girlfriend of 8 years broke up with him over the summer. My advice has generally been, go back to Chicago which you love and where most of your friends are, make a ton of money and have fun being single for like 3 years, and then at 30 you can have $300K in the bank and do whatever you want with the rest of your life. But I am very appreciative to have some people with actual knowledge to supplement my non-lawyerly recommendations

My two cents is that when I was a commercial bankruptcy lawyer in Chicago many years ago Kirkland and Skadden were at the very top, maybe with Jones Day and a couple other firms nationwide. At the time in Chicago, Kirkland was handling the United Airlines and Conseco cases and Skadden had Kmart - among the largest cases ever filed at the time. However, there was a 7th Circuit decision years later in the Kmart case that negatively influenced the attractiveness of the ND Ill as a venue for chapter 11 mega cases and its star has fallen dramatically in terms of huge reorgs. If that is his desire, NY / Del. and probably Houston/Dallas are likely better places to work. At the same time, my personal view is there are very few places for a young single person with good income to live than Chicago. I interviewed with Kirkland's BK group (J. Sprayragen) at the time through a recruiter connection and determined an hour or so into the interview that it was not for me but still had a good time at happy hour with some of the associates after.

 

[Zow]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

 

[thecatch]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Life is too short.

 

[-fish-]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

 

[Da Guru]

Whatever happened to Henry Ford? He used to almost give Tim a run for his money carpet bombing threads.

 

[Zow]

Whatever happened to Henry Ford? He used to almost give Tim a run for his money carpet bombing threads.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that he iQuit over a pretty sensitive topic and argument with another poster. He hasn't been around for a few years.

 

[Zow]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

 

[bigbottom]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

 

[BeTheMatch]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

The attorney I work for hit 2300 for the second straight year. She's got two kids in high school. I don't know how (or why) she does it.

 

[-fish-]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

I used to work 80-100 hour weeks. Resulted in bad health, a drinking problem and a divorce.

I now work 15-20 hours a week and Im able to pay for my kid's college and living expenses and am close to retirement. Open your own shop.

 

[Zow]

I'm seriously thinking about running for a position on my state's appellate court. I'm considering it despite the significant pay cut it proposes because I'm at a point in my career where I'm getting slightly dejected by day to day representation and the harsh reality that my job seems mostly focused on dealing with client with unreasonable expectations and doing my absolute best to competent educate the trial court judge on the law and facts - which, the reality I've learned with this job, is that oftentimes your client's outcome hinges on whether a judge agrees with you and, right or wrong, they don't every time.

Anybody with any experience clerking in the appellate or working in one otherwise? I'm trying to balance income with career aspirations and not getting burned out by 50. I do generally love the law and believe in it but the daily grind of practice is honestly getting to me.

 

[Zow]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

I used to work 80-100 hour weeks. Resulted in bad health, a drinking problem and a divorce.

I now work 15-20 hours a week and Im able to pay for my kid's college and living expenses and am close to retirement. Open your own shop.

I'm just not interested in the daily business administrative aspect to this.

 

[-fish-]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

I used to work 80-100 hour weeks. Resulted in bad health, a drinking problem and a divorce.

I now work 15-20 hours a week and Im able to pay for my kid's college and living expenses and am close to retirement. Open your own shop.

I'm just not interested in the daily business administrative aspect to this.

outsource it.

 

[coopersdad]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

 

[-fish-]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

Generally hours are billed in 10ths, so the minimum of .1 represents 6 minutes. The idea that you're goin5g to make money billing .1 twice over a 6 minute period to make money is ridiculous.

The other thing you're missing is that for every 6 minutes you bill, there are minutes you don't. To bill 2000 hours a year means you're probably working 2600 hours.

 

[bigbottom]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

When I was with a firm, I always billed in 0.1 increments. Other than something taking less than six minutes that really needed a billing record, I always rounded down. So I would never have billed for more hours than actual time worked in a day.

 

[coopersdad]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

Generally hours are billed in 10ths, so the minimum of .1 represents 6 minutes. The idea that you're goin5g to make money billing .1 twice over a 6 minute period to make money is ridiculous.

The other thing you're missing is that for every 6 minutes you bill, there are minutes you don't. To bill 2000 hours a year means you're probably working 2600 hours.

appreciate the response.

 

[coopersdad]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

When I was with a firm, I always billed in 0.1 increments. Other than something taking less than six minutes that really needed a billing record, I always rounded down. So I would never have billed for more hours than actual time worked in a day.

thanks.

 

[Zow]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

Generally hours are billed in 10ths, so the minimum of .1 represents 6 minutes. The idea that you're goin5g to make money billing .1 twice over a 6 minute period to make money is ridiculous.

The other thing you're missing is that for every 6 minutes you bill, there are minutes you don't. To bill 2000 hours a year means you're probably working 2600 hours.

This is accurately stated as it applies across.

Since you initially asked me, I want to address how I approach billing because in my state there are a few ethical ways to do it (though, as I learned in a very helpful billing CLE a few months ago, not all options are best practice). For me, I'm proud to say that my billable time is my real time with the only caveat that, unlike BB above who rounds down, I do round up (as it permitted in my jurisdiction). That said, in contrast to many colleagues, I don't have a set minimum billable amounts for any tasks and I do my own billing. In other words, many lawyers in my jurisdiction will have a set amount per task like a phone call or an email exchange just being a .2 entry regardless of how long it went and whether the file needed to be reviewed or noted around the call. Additionally, many lawyers will have staff personnel do their billing and this probably results in some entries maybe not being as accurate (though, the inevitable underbilling probably cancels this out) and is why there are set minimums.

@coopersdad the above may be what you experienced with being charged .25 for the 2 minute call. In my jurisdiction, this sort of billing practice is not per se unethical, but at the aforementioned CLE the bar made it very clear that this sort of practice is frowned upon and would likely be considered presumptively unreasonable in a fee dispute. Nonetheless, many lawyers are dinosaurs and ascribe to the "it's worked in the past so it'll work going forward" mantra.

Turning back to my billing practices, I do think I'm much more efficient than most lawyers in that while I do have unbillable time working (usually helping other attorneys on cases, doing some minor admin stuff, CLEs, and the occasional pro bono matter, etc.) I think I'm both very efficient at maximizing my time and capturing the same. I will usually be multi-tasking during office admin meetings as well. So, of my 2500 hours I probably worked ~2700. I get there by really only distracting myself with this board, fantasy football itself, and a golf text thread. I do eat lunch but it's usually at my desk while watching body cam footage or listening to a recording and it's never for more than 30 minutes unless I'm out with a client or doing a lunch meeting. I also hardly ever take more than a day or two off at a time and I work a lot in the early mornings and probably put in 4-6 hours total on an average weekend by just working when I have down time.

In my office, where I've been the attorney tasked with mentoring the associates when it comes to billing and work-life balance, I'm known for two sayings:

"Don't ever cheat a client, but also don't ever cheat yourself. Your time is valuable."

"ABB - always be billing!"

 

[BeTheMatch]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

We bill in .1 increments. But depending on what the two-minute call entailed, it could have also led to a file review, etc. If it did, though, our practice would be to note that too by way of explanation.

 

[bigbottom]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

Generally hours are billed in 10ths, so the minimum of .1 represents 6 minutes. The idea that you're goin5g to make money billing .1 twice over a 6 minute period to make money is ridiculous.

The other thing you're missing is that for every 6 minutes you bill, there are minutes you don't. To bill 2000 hours a year means you're probably working 2600 hours.

This is accurately stated as it applies across.

Since you initially asked me, I want to address how I approach billing because in my state there are a few ethical ways to do it (though, as I learned in a very helpful billing CLE a few months ago, not all options are best practice). For me, I'm proud to say that my billable time is my real time with the only caveat that, unlike BB above who rounds down, I do round up (as it permitted in my jurisdiction). That said, in contrast to many colleagues, I don't have a set minimum billable amounts for any tasks and I do my own billing. In other words, many lawyers in my jurisdiction will have a set amount per task like a phone call or an email exchange just being a .2 entry regardless of how long it went and whether the file needed to be reviewed or noted around the call. Additionally, many lawyers will have staff personnel do their billing and this probably results in some entries maybe not being as accurate (though, the inevitable underbilling probably cancels this out) and is why there are set minimums.

@coopersdad the above may be what you experienced with being charged .25 for the 2 minute call. In my jurisdiction, this sort of billing practice is not per se unethical, but at the aforementioned CLE the bar made it very clear that this sort of practice is frowned upon and would likely be considered presumptively unreasonable in a fee dispute. Nonetheless, many lawyers are dinosaurs and ascribed to the "it's worked in the practice so it'll work going forward" mantra.

Turning back to my billing practices, I do think I'm much more efficient than most lawyers in that while I do have unbillable time working (usually helping other attorneys on cases, doing some minor admin stuff, CLEs, and the occasional pro bono matter, etc.) I think I'm both very efficient at maximizing my time and capturing the same. I will usually be multi-tasking during office admin meetings as well. So, of my 2500 hours I probably worked ~2700. I get there by really only distracting myself with this board, fantasy football itself, and a golf text thread. I do eat lunch but it's usually at my desk while watching body cam footage or listening to a recording and it's never for more than 30 minutes unless I'm out with a client or doing a lunch meeting. I also hardly ever take more than a day or two off at a time and I work a lot in the early mornings and probably put in 4-6 hours total on an average weekend by just working when I have down time.

In my office, where I've been the attorney tasked with mentoring the associates when it comes to billing and work-life balance, I'm known for two sayings:

"Don't ever cheat a client, but also don't ever cheat yourself. Your time is valuable."

"ABB - always be billing!"

Good post. But I’m not sure you should be mentoring associates on work life balance.

 

[bigbottom]

By the way, one of the biggest perks for me moving in house is no longer having to keep track of or bill my time.

 

[Zow]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

We bill in .1 increments. But depending on what the two-minute call entailed, it could have also led to a file review, etc. If it did, though, our practice would be to note that too by way of explanation.

Yep. A pretty common entry for me is, "Review of file in advance of client call, call with client to discuss X, note file." That honestly takes at least six minutes as I note 95% of my calls and usually I'll review my notes in advance of a call.

 

[Zow]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

Generally hours are billed in 10ths, so the minimum of .1 represents 6 minutes. The idea that you're goin5g to make money billing .1 twice over a 6 minute period to make money is ridiculous.

The other thing you're missing is that for every 6 minutes you bill, there are minutes you don't. To bill 2000 hours a year means you're probably working 2600 hours.

This is accurately stated as it applies across.

Since you initially asked me, I want to address how I approach billing because in my state there are a few ethical ways to do it (though, as I learned in a very helpful billing CLE a few months ago, not all options are best practice). For me, I'm proud to say that my billable time is my real time with the only caveat that, unlike BB above who rounds down, I do round up (as it permitted in my jurisdiction). That said, in contrast to many colleagues, I don't have a set minimum billable amounts for any tasks and I do my own billing. In other words, many lawyers in my jurisdiction will have a set amount per task like a phone call or an email exchange just being a .2 entry regardless of how long it went and whether the file needed to be reviewed or noted around the call. Additionally, many lawyers will have staff personnel do their billing and this probably results in some entries maybe not being as accurate (though, the inevitable underbilling probably cancels this out) and is why there are set minimums.

@coopersdad the above may be what you experienced with being charged .25 for the 2 minute call. In my jurisdiction, this sort of billing practice is not per se unethical, but at the aforementioned CLE the bar made it very clear that this sort of practice is frowned upon and would likely be considered presumptively unreasonable in a fee dispute. Nonetheless, many lawyers are dinosaurs and ascribed to the "it's worked in the practice so it'll work going forward" mantra.

Turning back to my billing practices, I do think I'm much more efficient than most lawyers in that while I do have unbillable time working (usually helping other attorneys on cases, doing some minor admin stuff, CLEs, and the occasional pro bono matter, etc.) I think I'm both very efficient at maximizing my time and capturing the same. I will usually be multi-tasking during office admin meetings as well. So, of my 2500 hours I probably worked ~2700. I get there by really only distracting myself with this board, fantasy football itself, and a golf text thread. I do eat lunch but it's usually at my desk while watching body cam footage or listening to a recording and it's never for more than 30 minutes unless I'm out with a client or doing a lunch meeting. I also hardly ever take more than a day or two off at a time and I work a lot in the early mornings and probably put in 4-6 hours total on an average weekend by just working when I have down time.

In my office, where I've been the attorney tasked with mentoring the associates when it comes to billing and work-life balance, I'm known for two sayings:

"Don't ever cheat a client, but also don't ever cheat yourself. Your time is valuable."

"ABB - always be billing!"

Good post. But I’m not sure you should be mentoring associates on work life balance.

It's very much a "do as I say, not as I do" type situation.

 

[-fish-]

I do mostly contingent fee work on complex cases. Have a mediation tomorrow on a case that I've been working for a year and a half.

Yesterday we got the defense mediation brief. The defendants are making an argument that since their liability is undisputed and their experts mostly agree with ours about the damages, our client shouldn't get its attorney's fees because they intend to settle and the case was easy for us. I seriously want to blow up the mediation and set 25 depositions.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

That’s brutal.

Eclipsed 2500 billable hrs this year for the fifth year in a row. Yay?

Gross. When do you ever see your family?

Honestly, that sounds awful.

I do a lot of billable work from home. In my areas of practice probably ~50% of my billable work is reviewing and responding to emails and reviewing and drafting documents. I can accomplish these tasks just as well from home and, much like this morning, when my family and I are all hanging out in the living or something, I can still be interacting with them in between emails or whatever. Further, I travel to other counties a lot and I can ethically bill at a reduced rate for this travel and I'm basically working constantly when I'm staying at a hotel or whatever. In other words, I believe I'm very effective in how I get to that number while still being around my family. Additionally, I genuinely am motivated by money and I get a dopamine kick when I look at my revenue generated for a particular day so it's not so bad.

That said, I did mention to my wife last evening after I entered by last billable entry for the year that this pace is unsustainable and I have maybe 2-3 more years of doing it. With the hours where they are now, it's basically impossible to work that much and have both a happy home life AND a healthy lifestyle away from work and family (with the latter being where I've let things suffer).

dumb question for a layman..............what is the minimum time for a billable unit? IE, is it .1 of an hour (6 minutes), or is it .25 (15 minutes). If it is one of these, is it possible to have more billable hours than a 8 hour work day (if you only worked 8 hours). I know I saw some legal show/movie where that was the case and it got the firm in trouble, but say you worked an 8 hour day and worked on 8 cases for 50 minutes each, is that 8 hours, or 6.66 hours (400 minutes / 60).

just curious, as I know that the on time that my ex needed a lawyer, I called one time and asked one question that lasted like 2 minutes, and we got charged for .25 hours.

When I was with a firm, I always billed in 0.1 increments. Other than something taking less than six minutes that really needed a billing record, I always rounded down. So I would never have billed for more hours than actual time worked in a day.

My firm is at 0.10 increments, we use Carpe Diem. It sucks, or admins are always finding entries that aren't getting loaded onto the weekly reports.

 

[Dezbelief]

I'm in Texas, I received a certified letter in the mail. The letter appears to be a subpoena for employment records of a deceased employee. I have been gathering the paperwork requested. Today I received a phone call from someone who said they needed to talk to someone about a subpoena for employment records I asked who the caller was and they hung up.

Is it normal to send a subpoena for employment records through the mail?

How would I go about verifying if the subpoena is real?

 

[BeTheMatch]

I'm in Texas, I received a certified letter in the mail. The letter appears to be a subpoena for employment records of a deceased employee. I have been gathering the paperwork requested. Today I received a phone call from someone who said they needed to talk to someone about a subpoena for employment records I asked who the caller was and they hung up.

Is it normal to send a subpoena for employment records through the mail?

How would I go about verifying if the subpoena is real?

See if it's filed online through court website

 

[bigbottom]

I'm in Texas, I received a certified letter in the mail. The letter appears to be a subpoena for employment records of a deceased employee. I have been gathering the paperwork requested. Today I received a phone call from someone who said they needed to talk to someone about a subpoena for employment records I asked who the caller was and they hung up.

Is it normal to send a subpoena for employment records through the mail?

How would I go about verifying if the subpoena is real?

Is there a cover letter from the party sending the subpoena? Is it a law firm? Are you the agent for service of process for your company?

 

[Dezbelief]

I'm in Texas, I received a certified letter in the mail. The letter appears to be a subpoena for employment records of a deceased employee. I have been gathering the paperwork requested. Today I received a phone call from someone who said they needed to talk to someone about a subpoena for employment records I asked who the caller was and they hung up.

Is it normal to send a subpoena for employment records through the mail?

How would I go about verifying if the subpoena is real?

Is there a cover letter from the party sending the subpoena? Is it a law firm? Are you the agent for service of process for your company?

There wasn't a cover letter. The first page looked like what a layman would expect a court document to look like. The names of the two parties at the top and a request for all employment records and a list of some specific items. There was a questionnaire with about 20 questions and a spot to get the questionnaire (deposition??) notarized.


Edit- I suppose I am the agent of service. I'm self employed and handle all of the paperwork.

 

[-fish-]

I'm in Texas, I received a certified letter in the mail. The letter appears to be a subpoena for employment records of a deceased employee. I have been gathering the paperwork requested. Today I received a phone call from someone who said they needed to talk to someone about a subpoena for employment records I asked who the caller was and they hung up.

Is it normal to send a subpoena for employment records through the mail?

How would I go about verifying if the subpoena is real?

See if it's filed online through court website

They file subpoenas in Texas?

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I'm in Texas, I received a certified letter in the mail. The letter appears to be a subpoena for employment records of a deceased employee. I have been gathering the paperwork requested. Today I received a phone call from someone who said they needed to talk to someone about a subpoena for employment records I asked who the caller was and they hung up.

Is it normal to send a subpoena for employment records through the mail?

How would I go about verifying if the subpoena is real?

Is there a cover letter from the party sending the subpoena? Is it a law firm? Are you the agent for service of process for your company?

There wasn't a cover letter. The first page looked like what a layman would expect a court document to look like. The names of the two parties at the top and a request for all employment records and a list of some specific items. There was a questionnaire with about 20 questions and a spot to get the questionnaire (deposition??) notarized.


Edit- I suppose I am the agent of service. I'm self employed and handle all of the paperwork.

What court is the proceeding in - state/fed or some admin proceeding or other?

Normally a document subpoena will direct you to whom you should provide the documents or at minimum have a name and phone number you can call. For me, its low-rent practice to serve a non-party subpoena on a small business without even a courtesy phone call first. The fact there's no cover letter and it was served only by mail (likely but not necessarily ineffective service) - all leads me to think its just a fishing trip by a lazy lawyer and not serious. I suppose you should take it seriously but how can you comply if there's no contact info on the document? Even though she's deceased, I'm not sure I'd be producing confidential records without some assurance her estate/heirs or whomever is aware you've been asked to do this. My gut feeling is to sit on it and I'm not sure what else you can do anyway with no direction.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Background:

Daughter was a passenger in an accident last year.

Paramedics came, gave her fentanyl to settle her down or for pain and she was taken to the hospital in an ambulance. No broken bones or cuts.

The insurance company has been hounding us for a release and settlement. They offered a paltry amount of money. (~$5k)

I have not asked them for anything or even implied that I want anything from them. I haven’t spoken to them or given them any information except for telling them not to contact her. Despite me telling them not to contact her, they continued to continually call her.

She was a minor at the time of the accident and these phone calls.

My question;

1) Should I just take all her info/stuff to an attorney and let them deal with it?

2( will she have to be a part of any of it in any capacity?

I am just happy that she’s healthy, but if these folks want to bend over backwards and throw a bunch of money at her, then by all means.