The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (2 Viewers)

[Henry Ford]

I'm working on waiving into the Washington state bar, and for the first time (I've waived into a couple of other jurisdictions) there is actually a test involved. I have about 150 pages to read of such fun topics as administrative law, civil procedure and the like.

The test is online, and you're allowed to use the prep materials during the test.

There is no reason in hell I should be reading these materials before just taking it, should I? I've tried and can't get past page 20 without wishing to shoot myself.

I would read them once so you know where to find the answers. It's 150 pages. What is that, like one Scalia opinion?

 

[krista4]

I'm working on waiving into the Washington state bar, and for the first time (I've waived into a couple of other jurisdictions) there is actually a test involved. I have about 150 pages to read of such fun topics as administrative law, civil procedure and the like.

The test is online, and you're allowed to use the prep materials during the test.

There is no reason in hell I should be reading these materials before just taking it, should I? I've tried and can't get past page 20 without wishing to shoot myself.

I would read them once so you know where to find the answers. It's 150 pages. What is that, like one Scalia opinion?

Yes, had better skim for this reason. Skimming meaning reading the titles and subtitles.

 

[Otis]

I was awful in court today in front of the GC of a major client who was there watching. Partner a I split up the issues. He shined, I fell on my face. Arguably my worst hearing ever. Feel so defeated, confidence shaken, pit in my stomach, embarrassed this GC thinks that is what I'm capable of. My reputation just got pummeled.

Sigh. So many highs, but the low days really suck. I guess that's probably any job.

 

[-fish-]

I'm working on waiving into the Washington state bar, and for the first time (I've waived into a couple of other jurisdictions) there is actually a test involved. I have about 150 pages to read of such fun topics as administrative law, civil procedure and the like.

The test is online, and you're allowed to use the prep materials during the test.

There is no reason in hell I should be reading these materials before just taking it, should I? I've tried and can't get past page 20 without wishing to shoot myself.

It's online? I'll take it for you for a bottle of bourbon.

 

[-fish-]

I'm working on waiving into the Washington state bar, and for the first time (I've waived into a couple of other jurisdictions) there is actually a test involved. I have about 150 pages to read of such fun topics as administrative law, civil procedure and the like.

The test is online, and you're allowed to use the prep materials during the test.

There is no reason in hell I should be reading these materials before just taking it, should I? I've tried and can't get past page 20 without wishing to shoot myself.

It's online? I'll take it for you for a bottle of bourbon.

Unless it's ethics. You probably don't want me taking that part for you.

 

[krista4]

I'm working on waiving into the Washington state bar, and for the first time (I've waived into a couple of other jurisdictions) there is actually a test involved. I have about 150 pages to read of such fun topics as administrative law, civil procedure and the like.

The test is online, and you're allowed to use the prep materials during the test.

There is no reason in hell I should be reading these materials before just taking it, should I? I've tried and can't get past page 20 without wishing to shoot myself.

It's online? I'll take it for you for a bottle of bourbon.

Unless it's ethics. You probably don't want me taking that part for you.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I'm working on waiving into the Washington state bar, and for the first time (I've waived into a couple of other jurisdictions) there is actually a test involved. I have about 150 pages to read of such fun topics as administrative law, civil procedure and the like.

The test is online, and you're allowed to use the prep materials during the test.

There is no reason in hell I should be reading these materials before just taking it, should I? I've tried and can't get past page 20 without wishing to shoot myself.

If there's a table of contents, I'd be very familiar with that so that I'd recognize which issue a question raised and know where to look for the answer.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I'm working on waiving into the Washington state bar, and for the first time (I've waived into a couple of other jurisdictions) there is actually a test involved. I have about 150 pages to read of such fun topics as administrative law, civil procedure and the like.

The test is online, and you're allowed to use the prep materials during the test.

There is no reason in hell I should be reading these materials before just taking it, should I? I've tried and can't get past page 20 without wishing to shoot myself.

If there's a table of contents, I'd be very familiar with that so that I'd recognize which issue a question raised and know where to look for the answer.

Is the exam timed?

 

[krista4]

I'm working on waiving into the Washington state bar, and for the first time (I've waived into a couple of other jurisdictions) there is actually a test involved. I have about 150 pages to read of such fun topics as administrative law, civil procedure and the like.

The test is online, and you're allowed to use the prep materials during the test.

There is no reason in hell I should be reading these materials before just taking it, should I? I've tried and can't get past page 20 without wishing to shoot myself.

If there's a table of contents, I'd be very familiar with that so that I'd recognize which issue a question raised and know where to look for the answer.

Is the exam timed?

Yes.

 

[Henry Ford]

I was awful in court today in front of the GC of a major client who was there watching. Partner a I split up the issues. He shined, I fell on my face. Arguably my worst hearing ever. Feel so defeated, confidence shaken, pit in my stomach, embarrassed this GC thinks that is what I'm capable of. My reputation just got pummeled.

Sigh. So many highs, but the low days really suck. I guess that's probably any job.

Try to remember that if GC was half as good at what you do as you are, they wouldn't have to hire you. It happens. We all have bad days. Be the cornerback, man. Short memory.

 

[Otis]

I was awful in court today in front of the GC of a major client who was there watching. Partner a I split up the issues. He shined, I fell on my face. Arguably my worst hearing ever. Feel so defeated, confidence shaken, pit in my stomach, embarrassed this GC thinks that is what I'm capable of. My reputation just got pummeled.

Sigh. So many highs, but the low days really suck. I guess that's probably any job.

Try to remember that if GC was half as good at what you do as you are, they wouldn't have to hire you. It happens. We all have bad days. Be the cornerback, man. Short memory.

This basically kept me up all night. Not sure if I'm overreacting but not sure that matters.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I was awful in court today in front of the GC of a major client who was there watching. Partner a I split up the issues. He shined, I fell on my face. Arguably my worst hearing ever. Feel so defeated, confidence shaken, pit in my stomach, embarrassed this GC thinks that is what I'm capable of. My reputation just got pummeled.

Sigh. So many highs, but the low days really suck. I guess that's probably any job.

Try to remember that if GC was half as good at what you do as you are, they wouldn't have to hire you. It happens. We all have bad days. Be the cornerback, man. Short memory.

This basically kept me up all night. Not sure if I'm overreacting but not sure that matters.

Everybody has an off day. You have plenty of job security and have proven yourself already. You're likely being way over critical of yourself. Relax and enjoy your family.

 

[Henry Ford]

I was awful in court today in front of the GC of a major client who was there watching. Partner a I split up the issues. He shined, I fell on my face. Arguably my worst hearing ever. Feel so defeated, confidence shaken, pit in my stomach, embarrassed this GC thinks that is what I'm capable of. My reputation just got pummeled.

Sigh. So many highs, but the low days really suck. I guess that's probably any job.

Try to remember that if GC was half as good at what you do as you are, they wouldn't have to hire you. It happens. We all have bad days. Be the cornerback, man. Short memory.

This basically kept me up all night. Not sure if I'm overreacting but not sure that matters.

I think we all understand the feeling. Every litigator has had a night like that. Or dozens.Find a friend you can talk to, and unload. Or your wife. Or someone. Get it all out. And try to let it go.

 

[Henry Ford]

If it makes you feel better, in my younger days I once lost a default judgment hearing.

 

[NCCommish]

I was awful in court today in front of the GC of a major client who was there watching. Partner a I split up the issues. He shined, I fell on my face. Arguably my worst hearing ever. Feel so defeated, confidence shaken, pit in my stomach, embarrassed this GC thinks that is what I'm capable of. My reputation just got pummeled.

Sigh. So many highs, but the low days really suck. I guess that's probably any job.

Try to remember that if GC was half as good at what you do as you are, they wouldn't have to hire you. It happens. We all have bad days. Be the cornerback, man. Short memory.

This basically kept me up all night. Not sure if I'm overreacting but not sure that matters.

Well not over law matters but I have those nights as well. One little mistake on my end can cost the company thousands in lost profit and most of what I work on is pretty involved. I am pretty good at what I do but I occasionally have an off day. I miss something and then the guys go out and I look like an idiot. Despite the fact I got it right 999 times before. Just have to suck it up and move on.

Next day is a new chance if you are fixated on yesterday it becomes a running theme and that's when you run into real trouble. Plus you got a lovely wife and a young family you are already winning in all the important areas

 

[Otis]

I was awful in court today in front of the GC of a major client who was there watching. Partner a I split up the issues. He shined, I fell on my face. Arguably my worst hearing ever. Feel so defeated, confidence shaken, pit in my stomach, embarrassed this GC thinks that is what I'm capable of. My reputation just got pummeled.

Sigh. So many highs, but the low days really suck. I guess that's probably any job.

Try to remember that if GC was half as good at what you do as you are, they wouldn't have to hire you. It happens. We all have bad days. Be the cornerback, man. Short memory.

This basically kept me up all night. Not sure if I'm overreacting but not sure that matters.

I think we all understand the feeling. Every litigator has had a night like that. Or dozens.Find a friend you can talk to, and unload. Or your wife. Or someone. Get it all out. And try to let it go.

Thanks. Working on a make-up note to the GC today to set out our our plan and confirm he is in good hands and that we are all over this thing. Now I just have to be certain we win the MTD (if he even lets me argue it after crapping the bed like that). No room for error this time.

 

[Henry Ford]

I was awful in court today in front of the GC of a major client who was there watching. Partner a I split up the issues. He shined, I fell on my face. Arguably my worst hearing ever. Feel so defeated, confidence shaken, pit in my stomach, embarrassed this GC thinks that is what I'm capable of. My reputation just got pummeled.

Sigh. So many highs, but the low days really suck. I guess that's probably any job.

Try to remember that if GC was half as good at what you do as you are, they wouldn't have to hire you. It happens. We all have bad days. Be the cornerback, man. Short memory.

This basically kept me up all night. Not sure if I'm overreacting but not sure that matters.

I think we all understand the feeling. Every litigator has had a night like that. Or dozens.Find a friend you can talk to, and unload. Or your wife. Or someone. Get it all out. And try to let it go.

Thanks. Working on a make-up note to the GC today to set out our our plan and confirm he is in good hands and that we are all over this thing. Now I just have to be certain we win the MTD (if he even lets me argue it after crapping the bed like that). No room for error this time.

Prepare like crazy, brief it hard, and go crush the ###hole on the other side.

 

[Otis]

Is this just a litigation thing? Do other lawyers experience this kind of high pressure to perform at a high level in a public venue? Sometimes seems a whole lot less stressful to work in other areas, but maybe this same sort of thing manifests in those areas too, just in different ways.

 

[Henry Ford]

I will say, the thing that makes my marriage work is that my wife knows that when I've had one of those days I need to spend on night within a couple days getting disgustingly drunk and beating myself up, so I can wake up the next day having hit the reset button. And is fine with it.

 

[Otis]

I was awful in court today in front of the GC of a major client who was there watching. Partner a I split up the issues. He shined, I fell on my face. Arguably my worst hearing ever. Feel so defeated, confidence shaken, pit in my stomach, embarrassed this GC thinks that is what I'm capable of. My reputation just got pummeled.

Sigh. So many highs, but the low days really suck. I guess that's probably any job.

Try to remember that if GC was half as good at what you do as you are, they wouldn't have to hire you. It happens. We all have bad days. Be the cornerback, man. Short memory.

This basically kept me up all night. Not sure if I'm overreacting but not sure that matters.

I think we all understand the feeling. Every litigator has had a night like that. Or dozens.Find a friend you can talk to, and unload. Or your wife. Or someone. Get it all out. And try to let it go.

Thanks. Working on a make-up note to the GC today to set out our our plan and confirm he is in good hands and that we are all over this thing. Now I just have to be certain we win the MTD (if he even lets me argue it after crapping the bed like that). No room for error this time.

Prepare like crazy, brief it hard, and go crush the ###hole on the other side.

He's pro se

And a bit of a nut. All of which makes getting beat up by the judge all the more embarrassing.

 

[Henry Ford]

Is this just a litigation thing? Do other lawyers experience this kind of high pressure to perform at a high level in a public venue? Sometimes seems a whole lot less stressful to work in other areas, but maybe this same sort of thing manifests in those areas too, just in different ways.

I think most lawyers have it to some degree, but we're a special breed.

 

[Otis]

Henry, out of curiosity how old are you and how long have you been practicing?

 

[Henry Ford]

Pro se? Of course you got beat up by the judge. You always get beat up by the judge against someone pro se. And it's always the non-partner who takes the hit.

 

[Otis]

Pro se? Of course you got beat up by the judge. You always get beat up by the judge against someone pro se. And it's always the non-partner who takes the hit.

(or the younger partner?.....)

 

[Henry Ford]

Henry, out of curiosity how old are you and how long have you been practicing?

Mid 40s, almost 20 years.

 

[Henry Ford]

Pro se? Of course you got beat up by the judge. You always get beat up by the judge against someone pro se. And it's always the non-partner who takes the hit.

(or the younger partner?.....)

Yes.

 

[Henry Ford]

That default judgment I lost was against a pro se litigant. I still get angry about that.

 

[Otis]

A little lawyer letter levity:

http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0514-dan-bilzerian-doc.pdf

 

[Henry Ford]

Fantastic

 

[krista4]

Sorry to hear, GB Otis. Did the senior partner say anything to you--i.e., is it possible you're overestimating how much you sucked? In any case, think it's most important not to dwell on the fact that it happened so much as figuring out why it happened and ensuring that you don't put yourself in that position again. You'll get 'em next time.

 

[Henry Ford]

Sorry to hear, GB Otis. Did the senior partner say anything to you--i.e., is it possible you're overestimating how much you sucked? In any case, think it's most important not to dwell on the fact that it happened so much as figuring out why it happened and ensuring that you don't put yourself in that position again. You'll get 'em next time.

You non-litigators are so reasonable about things.

 

[DocGonzo]

Sorry Otis. Rest assured that we all have those days -- even the GC you're worried about. You've got a proven track record. Rub some dirt on it brother. You'll be back.

 

[Otis]

Sorry to hear, GB Otis. Did the senior partner say anything to you--i.e., is it possible you're overestimating how much you sucked? In any case, think it's most important not to dwell on the fact that it happened so much as figuring out why it happened and ensuring that you don't put yourself in that position again. You'll get 'em next time.

The "senior" partner is only 7 or 8 years older than I am. We all agreed it was rocky. In the end, we got the result we needed to get, so it's not the end of the world in that sense. It's more just how I personally looked through it all, and the fact that the client thinks I'm awful at this, that has me off kilter.

Short answer: I think I'm just juggling too much right now, at work alone but also at home, and I think I wasn't prepared enough. Can't really make excuses.

 

[Otis]

Sorry Otis. Rest assured that we all have those days -- even the GC you're worried about. You've got a proven track record. Rub some dirt on it brother. You'll be back.

Thanks, appreciate that sentiment.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

If it makes you feel better, in my younger days I once lost a default judgment hearing.

Me too.

 

[Henry Ford]

Sorry to hear, GB Otis. Did the senior partner say anything to you--i.e., is it possible you're overestimating how much you sucked? In any case, think it's most important not to dwell on the fact that it happened so much as figuring out why it happened and ensuring that you don't put yourself in that position again. You'll get 'em next time.

The "senior" partner is only 7 or 8 years older than I am. We all agreed it was rocky. In the end, we got the result we needed to get, so it's not the end of the world in that sense. It's more just how I personally looked through it all, and the fact that the client thinks I'm awful at this, that has me off kilter.

Short answer: I think I'm just juggling too much right now, at work alone but also at home, and I think I wasn't prepared enough. Can't really make excuses.

Wait, you won? You have to let this go. Immediately.

 

[-fish-]

That default judgment I lost was against a pro se litigant. I still get angry about that.

I was thinking it had to be a pro se.

 

[-fish-]

Sorry to hear, GB Otis. Did the senior partner say anything to you--i.e., is it possible you're overestimating how much you sucked? In any case, think it's most important not to dwell on the fact that it happened so much as figuring out why it happened and ensuring that you don't put yourself in that position again. You'll get 'em next time.

The "senior" partner is only 7 or 8 years older than I am. We all agreed it was rocky. In the end, we got the result we needed to get, so it's not the end of the world in that sense. It's more just how I personally looked through it all, and the fact that the client thinks I'm awful at this, that has me off kilter.

Short answer: I think I'm just juggling too much right now, at work alone but also at home, and I think I wasn't prepared enough. Can't really make excuses.

Happens to the best of us, GB. I've been litigating for 16 years. Every once in a while a judge will go sideways on you at a hearing. Part of it is that we get used to arguing what matters, because 90% of the time that's all that gets argued. So you prepare for the meaty stuff. The ones where a judge goes into tangential issues or is trying to find a reason to make a particular ruling are the ones that make you feel unprepared.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

For about a day and a half earlier this week, I thought I was partially responsible for a several million dollar e-discovery bill to the client. That was a long, dark teatime of the soul.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

A little lawyer letter levity:

http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0514-dan-bilzerian-doc.pdf

I long for the day where I am given the opportunity to write an eff you letter like that. I have the usual frivolous notice and every now and then the "I'm sorry your client didn't tell you this," in a divorce but never something so complete in its entertainment and beat down. I would buy this guy a beverage of his choosing.

 

[Zow]

Otis there is a strong likelihood things didn't go as badly as they seemed. While admittedly I don't know your area of law so it may be different, but I've had hearings so fact-oriented that I've thought I messed up badly b/c post hearing I was realizing different arguments I could have made, a fact I missed, etc. in hindsight though we only get there by diving so deeply into the cases that we are the only ones capable of noticing these mistakes. In reality, to a neutral viewer it probably didn't look so bad.

 

[Henry Ford]

Otis there is a strong likelihood things didn't go as badly as they seemed. While admittedly I don't know your area of law so it may be different, but I've had hearings so fact-oriented that I've thought I messed up badly b/c post hearing I was realizing different arguments I could have made, a fact I missed, etc. in hindsight though we only get there by diving so deeply into the cases that we are the only ones capable of noticing these mistakes. In reality, to a neutral viewer it probably didn't look so bad.

I'm guessing it was actually horrible, especially in contrast to the guy who kicked ###.

Either way, it doesn't matter. He won. Scoreboard, people.

 

[krista4]

Is this just a litigation thing? Do other lawyers experience this kind of high pressure to perform at a high level in a public venue? Sometimes seems a whole lot less stressful to work in other areas, but maybe this same sort of thing manifests in those areas too, just in different ways.

To answer this...I'm not able to come up with where non-litigators would be performing in a "public" venue. I've had to "perform" in front of large groups of important people (including the world's richest man), if that's what you're talking about, but can't think of literally public scenarios other than annual shareholders meetings. Not sure I'd care nearly as much about performing in front of the public at large as I have in front of many of the people I've had to, though.

 

[Henry Ford]

I settled a discrimination claim today. It is unquestionably the most rewarding "win" of my career. Not much money involved for my client, but a nationwide financial institution/network has to make big changes in how it treats people and a bunch of people who have very little are about to get some money and a letter of apology in the mail. My client, who is an old friend and I represented pro bono, is in tears and told me she feels like I helped her make a real difference in the world.

It's a good day.

 

[Otis]

Otis there is a strong likelihood things didn't go as badly as they seemed. While admittedly I don't know your area of law so it may be different, but I've had hearings so fact-oriented that I've thought I messed up badly b/c post hearing I was realizing different arguments I could have made, a fact I missed, etc. in hindsight though we only get there by diving so deeply into the cases that we are the only ones capable of noticing these mistakes. In reality, to a neutral viewer it probably didn't look so bad.

I'm guessing it was actually horrible, especially in contrast to the guy who kicked ###.

This.

 

[Otis]

Is this just a litigation thing? Do other lawyers experience this kind of high pressure to perform at a high level in a public venue? Sometimes seems a whole lot less stressful to work in other areas, but maybe this same sort of thing manifests in those areas too, just in different ways.

To answer this...I'm not able to come up with where non-litigators would be performing in a "public" venue. I've had to "perform" in front of large groups of important people (including the world's richest man), if that's what you're talking about, but can't think of literally public scenarios other than annual shareholders meetings. Not sure I'd care nearly as much about performing in front of the public at large as I have in front of many of the people I've had to, though.

I think this is analogous.

 

[DocGonzo]

I settled a discrimination claim today. It is unquestionably the most rewarding "win" of my career. Not much money involved for my client, but a nationwide financial institution/network has to make big changes in how it treats people and a bunch of people who have very little are about to get some money and a letter of apology in the mail. My client, who is an old friend and I represented pro bono, is in tears and told me she feels like I helped her make a real difference in the world.

It's a good day.

Awesome work man. Good for you.

 

[Henry Ford]

I settled a discrimination claim today. It is unquestionably the most rewarding "win" of my career. Not much money involved for my client, but a nationwide financial institution/network has to make big changes in how it treats people and a bunch of people who have very little are about to get some money and a letter of apology in the mail. My client, who is an old friend and I represented pro bono, is in tears and told me she feels like I helped her make a real difference in the world.

It's a good day.

Awesome work man. Good for you.

Thanks. Slowly but surely, people are coming to realize that you can't treat people like #### just because they are getting their income from Social Security Disability Insurance.

 

[Otis]

I can't help on occasion thinking about that argument every now and then, and then I cringe and die a little inside.

 

[Henry Ford]

Otis there is a strong likelihood things didn't go as badly as they seemed. While admittedly I don't know your area of law so it may be different, but I've had hearings so fact-oriented that I've thought I messed up badly b/c post hearing I was realizing different arguments I could have made, a fact I missed, etc. in hindsight though we only get there by diving so deeply into the cases that we are the only ones capable of noticing these mistakes. In reality, to a neutral viewer it probably didn't look so bad.

I'm guessing it was actually horrible, especially in contrast to the guy who kicked ###.

This.

And knowing that I believe that it was horrible and that I understand what you're talking about, believe me when I say "It happens to all of us. You won. Move on."