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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Henry Ford
- Start date
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Wonder if this was work related.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/lawyer-jumps-death-central-park-west-apartment-cops-article-1.1796302
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/lawyer-jumps-death-central-park-west-apartment-cops-article-1.1796302
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krista4
Footballguy
Geez, I've worked with that guy. :(
Lawyers do have one of the top suicide rates by profession.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It usually is. In the sense that lawyers spend a lot of time feeling like Otis did after a rough hearing. Even when they shouldn't feel badly, like Otis shouldn't.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Ned Ryerson
Footballguy
Just curious, my firm is poking around at the possibility of purchasing an existing practice of a retiring lawyer. The guy works part time, and bills, on average, about 100K a year.
What does the group think a fair purchase price for this size practice would be, and how would it be structured (lump sum, % of future billings)? I don't want to spoil where we are now in order to get some fresh suggestions, so I will wait to get some responses before letting you all see where our proposal is leaning.
What does the group think a fair purchase price for this size practice would be, and how would it be structured (lump sum, % of future billings)? I don't want to spoil where we are now in order to get some fresh suggestions, so I will wait to get some responses before letting you all see where our proposal is leaning.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
What's the repeatability of the business? Is this going to continue at 100K a year without him?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Knowing nothing else, probably would go $150-160, payable in installments up to several months out, with actual payout being a percentage of that $160 matching the percentage of business that stays with the firm.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
I think this is about right. I generally wouldn't pay for clients who can't actually be bought or sold. But for a hundred and fifty bucks, why not? It's worth a shot.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Ha.My point being, if it's (somehow) repeatable business like patent work or tax work or business contract for hire or something and the guy is loaded with clients, the business is worth more than he's making doing his part time work in a year - if every single client stays on. If he's a plaintiff's attorney or something, I have no idea why you'd buy it.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
My former partner represented an out of state business/individual in a copyright infringement and related state claims case in our local US District Court, and won on every count at summary judgment. His bill amount would have purchased a new loaded Land Rover. The minute he won, the clients stopped paying. Over the next 12 months he set up numerous payment plans with then, spent lots of time on the phone and writing to them, and never received another dime. And then when he told them he was going to collect, they filed a bar complaint claiming inadequate representation--that was a hilarious interaction with bar counsel, who admonished the client strongly in the letter clearing my partner.Client gets divorced. Client owes her attorney, let's call him Cardinals42fan, is owed a substantial amount of money from client. Not enough to purchase house, but enough to purchase a really nice used compact car if that is your thing.
Client has been told to pay. Clients says she will make payments. Client has not made payments. Her attorney is getting slightly upset. Turns out he took her word that she would pay because she came from a friend of a friend so it was a karma thing. Attorney calls client once again to find out about payment. Client informs attorney that the exspouse just lost his job and has stopped paying all support so she is broke and can't afford money for kids.
Attorney is in a quandry. In this choose your ending book, you are left with the choice...
1. Tell the client to shove it and pay her bill and let her kids starve, turn to page 666
or
2. Tell client to pay what she can as soon as possible and have another accounts receivable that is nothing more than a pie in the sky retirement account, turn to page 3.
Ultimately, our two man firm sued them and I handled it. Not fun having your own client on the stand, but sometimes you have to handle business. Soon, there was a settlement and although it wasnt the new Land Rover, it was a new Nissan Pathfinder.
I have my own boutique firm now, and the takeaway: have very good retainer agreements and get them signed, get upfront evergreen retainer payments and make your clients keep the current, keep excellent records and files, and use your time entries to track your work and bill and to defensively protect yourself. I give discounted rates, I frequently compromise on bills if a client requests it, I am Board President of the local volunteer lawyers for the arts nonprofit which provides pro bono legal services, and deadbeat clients are just a part of the business. Once in a while you have to stand up for yourself and that is fine. Your client wouldnt have hired you if they didnt value your services and you should value them, too.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
It happens. Just re-learn the lesson you already know: preparation is the key in the courtroom. The fear of doing it again should make sure you are stellar in your hearings and arguments for years....until you forget.....
NCCommish
Footballguy
This is actually true in all services where you are really trading your skill and knowledge not a tangible thing. More business owners would do well to remember it.Your client wouldnt have hired you if they didnt value your services and you should value them, too.Client gets divorced. Client owes her attorney, let's call him Cardinals42fan, is owed a substantial amount of money from client. Not enough to purchase house, but enough to purchase a really nice used compact car if that is your thing.
Client has been told to pay. Clients says she will make payments. Client has not made payments. Her attorney is getting slightly upset. Turns out he took her word that she would pay because she came from a friend of a friend so it was a karma thing. Attorney calls client once again to find out about payment. Client informs attorney that the exspouse just lost his job and has stopped paying all support so she is broke and can't afford money for kids.
Attorney is in a quandry. In this choose your ending book, you are left with the choice...
1. Tell the client to shove it and pay her bill and let her kids starve, turn to page 666
or
2. Tell client to pay what she can as soon as possible and have another accounts receivable that is nothing more than a pie in the sky retirement account, turn to page 3.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
We probably ran into each other at a bar at some point. Loyola here. I had a lot of friends at Tulane and some of my out of state friends did the Loyola to Tulane transfer after first year.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Today is fight with Bank of America day. I want to paint my face blue like Braveheart and kill these ****ers...
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Wells Fargo is getting worse and I hate the because at one time they were the easist bank on the planet to work with. But BoA...... I long for the day that this bank lays in the gutter of dead financial institutions and all their banks and corporate offices look like a scene out of any dystopian, nuclear holocaust type american future that you choose to insert here.
Quick question for the lawyers in here. Driving to work yesterday was behind a big old truck. I'm guessing it hauls gravel or something. They had a sign on the back of the truck that said something like "Warning: Stay back 200 feet. We are not responsible for broken windshields." I'm guessing they can't avoid liability for damage done by things flying out of their truck by simply posting a sign on their truck. Yes/No?
Ned Ryerson
Footballguy
It is a trademark book of business, for many clients that have been with him for many years. They have new filings, as well as work for renewals of existing marks. Color your view?
As of right now our proposal is
40% of collected billables in the first 18 months
30% for year 1.5 - 2.5
20% for year 2.5 to 3.5
10% for year 3.5 to 4.5
Starting year 4.5 all fees would be kept by our firm.
Presuming a flat 100K billables over 4.5 years he would be paid $120K over 4.5 years, and the firm would start making a profit in year 4. Good deal?
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You'd buy for the marketing footprint. Repeatable business is no more likely to be there a year later than the leads from a one-off practice. I had a friend who wanted to get out of litigation but he'd sunk tons of money into marketing and was getting steady leads. He wanted to sell the platforms to me but I held out thinking no one else would buy them from him. Now I have his marketing leads and I just pay him a 1/3 referral fee for each lead I close.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Like I said, I assumed that in creating a valuation. Valuation for an existing practice is somewhere between 40% and 300% of annual revenue, depending on the type of business.
Again, I'd structure it to pay him a definite 40%, maximum 150-175% (or whatever the going rate is in your area, I guess) and the difference will be determined by the number of clients who are still with you in X months.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Completely depends on the type of business. If it's intellectual property law, tax, or something like that, I disagree with this statement.
Ned Ryerson
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Reasonable deal. I don't think it's super lopsided or anything, and it protects you guys pretty well since it's based entirely on revenue (I assume from his existing clients.) Is there a clause dealing with cases from those clients he couldn't have handled on his own? If one of these trademark guys needs a full service litigation firm to go after someone, and that guy couldn't have handled it, are you going to give 40% of that revenue, too?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The primary purpose of that sign is to be able to say you were aware of the risk of driving closely to that vehicle, which becomes a factor that can reduce your damage claim, if the damage is from something that fell out of the truck.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
My answer depends on how big the insurance coverage is and how serious the injuries are.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I think the primary purpose is to get people not to sue them in the first place. Some people just believe whatever they read.
Ned Ryerson
Footballguy
Not right now, there is not. Yes, if there were to be real litigation, then the seller would get the windfall of this increased revenue over the first 18 months, although over the years, these clients have not shown the proclivity, or the wallet, to engage in this type of litigation.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Yeah, but for out of staters who know they are going home, or to NYC, etc., it made sense to jump to higher tier nationally known school. All of the people who wanted to one day run for NO mayor or DA all stayed at Loyola.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Part of my solo practice is a trademark practice and assuming he keeps his clients and continues building his pipeline and doing new business development, it should be a steady income stream. There are renewals at years 6 and 10 after the initial registration, and other transactional issues that arise if there are company or asset sales, licensing deals, etc. But unless there is also some litigation to increase fees, he will have to keep the volume up. At $100K/year or so it sounds like he has a nice little part time trademark practice which you guys could probably promote and develop if you wanted to and he wanted the increased capacity.
Ned Ryerson
Footballguy
Thanks....that said, there is no "he" going forward. I am an experienced TM practitioner, and he is retiring. The firm is betting, based on future billables that his clients stay with our firm.Todd Andrews said:
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Ah, got it. So you know how it works with a transactional TM practice. I have been through a couple of small firm mergers/withdrawals but never where a practice was being purchased like this without the lawyer continuing with the firm. So long as you can roughly quantify billable expectations about his clients going forward you should be able to come up with a reasonable valuation. I would definitely want a transition period after the purchase where he is moving you into place as the client contact and you are developing your own relationships before he is completely out.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
So I'm going to be deposed next week, my second time in the hot seat since moving in house, after having taken/defended a hundred or so during my time in private practice. This time we're only a non-party witness, but the party taking it has made some rather nasty allegations about us so it could get interesting. The first time I was deposed we were a party to the lawsuit, which was a 7 figure dispute between my company and a law firm of which a prominent poster here is a member. That was contentious, exhausting and got a bit heated in spots. Reading the transcript after was at times funny, at times painful, as I managed to break most of the rules and guidelines I'd given my clients over the years.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I just found out that the witness opposing counsel has based his entire case on in an injury suit has been convicted of dozens of counts of a crime that has "deception" as an element.
Really looking forward to this.
Really looking forward to this.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Saw an interesting article earlier. Apparently University of Texas law students have a very hard time passing the bar. Like less than 60% of them manage it. The reason given is cronyism. Political leaders, both democrat and republican, apparently put a lot of time into getting their buddies kids into the law school there. Whether they can cut it or not. Any grads here? I thought this was supposed to be one of the better law schools in the country.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Getting a good legal education and/or being good at taking the bar exam aren't always the same thing. Louisiana's bar passage rate overall was around 50% last time the bar results came out.
Of course, Louisiana's one of the tough ones. I don't actually know how easy/hard the Texas bar is.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I've never been deposed. I hate when my clients don't listen to my rules. But I can see how easy it is to do so.
Part of me is extremely curious about the firm/poster here part of the story. That is just too funny.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
So strategery - do you let him know now along with a settlement demand or do you blindside him at the deposition? I can see arguments for both.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I'd have to read the article, but I suspect that you're being sold a bill of goods. No Top 20 law school would have that rating with a 60% bar passage rate. UT's reported bar passage rate is in line with it's peers (around 94%).
http://www.utexas.edu/law/admissions/jd/quickfacts.php
NCCommish
Footballguy
So I did some research and now I feel misled by the article. The average overall runs somewhere around a 68% pass rate first time. People taking it in July crush people taking it in Feb as well by about 14 percentage points. I wonder why? Texas overall is 80% though so they are lagging for first timers.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
February bar passage rates generally lag behind for two reasons. It's disproportionately filled with people who failed in July and it's disproportionately filled with people who haven't spent the last two months doing nothing but studying for the bar (or in my case, playing disc golf and occasionally studying for the bar).
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Oh, the deposition already happened. His witness claimed he hasn't been convicted of any crimes in the last ten years.
So strategery - do you let him know now along with a settlement demand or do you blindside him at the deposition? I can see arguments for both.
Then I took his birthday and searched it.
The title of the statute that defines the crime has the word "deception" in it.
