What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The value of coaching (1 Viewer)

Chase Stuart

Footballguy
Here's Gregg Easterbrook's take:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...mp;lid=tab3pos1

Right now is the annual peak for coach obsession, as NFL teams fire and hire head coaches. Practically every aspect of American society has in recent decades become overblown – pumped up with money, media focus and popular fixation. Coaching is no exception. Coaches at all levels of sports have changed from figures frowning on the sidelines to celebrities who receive high pay, sign endorsement deals and are spoken of as possessing mystical abilities. NFL head coaches now earn at least $1 million per season,and several earn $4 million or more; dozens of college football coaches now earn more than the president of their colleges; in an increasing number of high schools, the best-paid person is the football coach. Beyond money, there's an increasing sense that having top coaches is essential to the well-being of a city, college or high school. Coaches, especially football coaches, have never been a hotter commodity. Why?

Let me propose that the current national obsession with coaches reflects these themes:

• The illusion of control.

• The abdication by politicians and intellectuals of the father-figure role.

• The exaggeration of insider knowledge.

• The illusion of special motivational ability.

• The winner-take-all of modern economics.

• The Walter Mitty daydream.

First, the illusion of control. Obviously some coaches are better than others – I'd certainly rather be coached by Pete Carroll than Nick Saban. (More on Saban below.) But as sports become ever-more important and ever-more analyzed, there seems an increasing tendency to want to believe that everything on the field happens for a reason. The ball didn't just bounce into some guy's hands, good coaching put the guy into the right position. The receiver didn't just run fast and get open, hours of round-the-clock study enabled the coach to determine precisely what pass pattern to call. It wasn't that the Colts played well Saturday while the Chiefs had an off day, this happened because Tony Dungy did an astonishingly good job of preparing his team using subtle psychological tools plus mega-brilliant game planning, while Herman Edwards did a poor job of preparing his team. Actually, Dungy and Edwards probably both did pretty much the same things all week before that game – Indianapolis just has better players than Kansas City. But we don't want to believe that, we want to believe the coach is in near-total control of events and outcomes. The explosion in conspiracy-theory thinking, in books and movies supposing there are secret agencies and master plans controlling our lives, spills over into sports in the sense that we want to believe Team A didn't win mainly because it's better than Team B, it won because someone was in control of the entire event. That someone has to be the coach. The phrase "everything happens for a reason" has taken on resonance in popular culture, and not only in religious circles. We don't want to believe luck and coincidence are major factors in our lives. We want to believe someone is in control. Project this thinking onto sports and the importance of the head coach inflates.

Second, the abdication by politicians and intellectuals of their father-figure roles. For good or ill, for generations people have looked to political leaders and intellectuals as father figures of society. Even if you had a good relationship with a good father, you still need other father figures, since your own father inevitably will pass on, and at any rate most people's own fathers are not players in high-profile public matters. But roughly since Watergate, politicians steadily have demeaned and trivialized themselves; is there anyone on the current national political scene you'd want as a father? A few generations ago, millions looked for life guidance to the examples of public-spirited intellectual figures such as Albert Schweitzer or Upton Sinclair. Today's intellectuals seem arrogant, money-focused and contemptuous of the average person. So we switch our father-figure thinking onto coaches who seem both men of achievement and who share one of our common concerns, love of sports. A few coaches such as Knute Rockne achieved national renown in the period before general cynicism. But it may be telling that the onset of the coach as superstar, the first instance being Vince Lombardi, came roughly at the same time disillusion with political and intellectual leadership began setting in.

Next is the exaggeration of insider knowledge. Pretty much every possible play and tactic, and every practice technique is known to every coach. Of course, it's also true that all chefs work with the same ingredients; two people can employ the same basic knowledge and one can come to a much better result than the other. But we seem to want to believe good coaches aren't merely people who are good at their professions, we want to believe they have incredible insider information. This mirrors the current national fascination with the notion that hush-hush secret information is at the crux of world events. Hollywood encourages this view, when the less sexy reality is that most events reflect nothing more than what meets the eye.

Next is the illusion of special motivational ability. Anyone who's been involved in competitive athletics knows that 90 percent of motivation comes from within the athlete. But the coaching guild doesn't want you to know that. A good coach can help the athlete realize the last 10 percent of motivation, while a bad coach can depress what the athlete already has – but in either case the real power of athletics comes from the players' psyches. But we live in a moment when celebrities and supposed experts get $50,000 to give motivational speeches, during which they stand on a stage flailing their arms and screaming "Get going, get going." We want to believe there are secret motivational tools that will unlock our hidden potential. Athletes will tell you that an amazing percentage even of successful coaches have poor interpersonal skills and are poor motivators – mainly, they yell. Show me a coach who yells a lot, and I'll show you a coach who is wasting everybody's time. But the illusion that coaches have incredible motivational abilities adds to their mystique.

Next is the winner-take-all aspect of modern economics, nodding here to Robert Frank of Cornell University, who has documented this phenomenon. Coaches at the top of pro and college football today earn 50 times what a high school varsity football coach earns. Not a single one of the top pro or college coaches is 50 times more able than the typical high school coach. I'd estimate that today's very best football coaches, such as Bill Belichick or Carroll, are approximately twice as good at what they do than any high school football coach who won a 4A or 5A state championship this fall – but Belichick and Carroll earn 50 times as much. At the high school, small-college, big-college and NFL level there are several thousand skilled, competent football coaches of approximately equal ability – coaching skill at the small-college level is especially overlooked. Of the several thousand able football coaches, a handful become rich while the rest labor for typical wages. This distorts our perspective of coaches, as winner-take-all economics distorts our perspective of Hollywood figures, CEOs, rock stars and the rest.

Finally there is Walter Mitty's daydream. We can't imagine actually becoming an NFL player, because we're not strong enough or fast enough. We can't imagine becoming a movie star because we're not good-looking enough, or becoming a pop star because we know we can't sing. The sports coach, on the other hand, has no special physical abilities or God-given gifts. Coaches can't run a 4.4 or hit a high note. I could be like him, I could run that team is in a lot of fans' minds. We don't imagine ourselves actually becoming Supreme Court justices and heart surgeons because we know professions like these involve many years of intense study and training. Coaching, on the other hand, seems like something almost anyone could learn. In the end, we revere coaches as persons of incredible prowess when really they are not all that different from the typical man or woman. And they would prefer this not be generally understood, thank you.

 
Here's Gregg Easterbrook's take:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...mp;lid=tab3pos1

Next is the winner-take-all aspect of modern economics, nodding here to Robert Frank of Cornell University, who has documented this phenomenon. Coaches at the top of pro and college football today earn 50 times what a high school varsity football coach earns. Not a single one of the top pro or college coaches is 50 times more able than the typical high school coach. I'd estimate that today's very best football coaches, such as Bill Belichick or Carroll, are approximately twice as good at what they do than any high school football coach who won a 4A or 5A state championship this fall – but Belichick and Carroll earn 50 times as much. At the high school, small-college, big-college and NFL level there are several thousand skilled, competent football coaches of approximately equal ability – coaching skill at the small-college level is especially overlooked. Of the several thousand able football coaches, a handful become rich while the rest labor for typical wages. This distorts our perspective of coaches, as winner-take-all economics distorts our perspective of Hollywood figures, CEOs, rock stars and the rest.
For a really smart guy, Easterbrook comes off as a total and complete idiot here. The point isn't whether or not a coach like Belichick is twice as good as any other football coach. The point is what that advantage means in terms of REVENUE. In other words, how much money does the Patriots franchise make by having a winner like Belichick over an extended period of time vs. an average NFL coach vs. a high school coach. Put another way: Before the Patriots had success in the 90s and great success this decade, they were so destitute that they were a phone call away from having to move the team to St. Louis. If Easterbrook doesn't understand that a coach like Belichick is worth a great deal more than an average high school coach or small college coach, he doesn't have a #######ed clue about football and is really clueless about the economics of the NFL...

 
A few generations ago, millions looked for life guidance to the examples of public-spirited intellectual figures such as Albert Schweitzer or Upton Sinclair. Today's intellectuals seem arrogant, money-focused and contemptuous of the average person.
:lmao:These two sentances and the notion behind them are ridiculous. I don't know anyone who looked at Schweitzer, Sinclair or any other "intellectual" as "father figures." He doesn't even bother to mention who "today's intellectuals" are. The "intellectuals" who set up the U.S. over 200 years ago were pretty contemptuous of the average person too - it's why the U.S. is a Republic and not a straight Democracy. When I think of father figures, I think of, well, my father - not Jean Paul Satre, Bill Clinton, Don Shula or the friggin Cookie Monster. If you're not lucky enough to have your real dad around, well it's going to be catch as catch can, but I'd say it's more likely that a kid has contact with his high school sports coach than he does an "intellectual" (I mean in what way does your philosophy teacher - which they don't even teach in H.S. anyway - fill a father figure role?) and that guy would probably thus more likely fill the role now as always.I stopped reading the article after that - pure hand wringing bunk.Ask the Raiders, or at least the Raider fans if a good coach is important.
 
I think it's over-rated in the NFL. If you don't have superior talent, you usually don't win in the NFL.

Coaching is more important in college football, IMO.

 
For a really smart guy, Easterbrook comes off as a total and complete idiot here.
After reading TMQ for a while, I have to say this is not unusual. He's been mailing it in for about two years now.
I really enjoy his style of writing (which is similar to his brother's), and I like reading his column. But I don't think he knows that much about football, and I know he doesn't know anywhere near as much as he thinks.That being said, I've previously discussed this issue with a certain staffer that I highly respect. I always think coaching is vital, but he thinks it's overrated. I don't think there's a clear cut answer to the question. I think you can pretty easily present data on both sides.
 
I'll say one thing though, in TMQ's defense. As Bill Simmons has pointed out lately, too, NFL coaches make a ton of really stupid decisions. I think coaching might be worse now than it was before teams spent hundreds of millions of dollars a year on coaching and scouting. You just see some incredibly stupid decisions going on pretty consistently. I don't have an explanation for this.

And look at guys like Shell, Coughlin, Mora and Green.

 
I'll say one thing though, in TMQ's defense. As Bill Simmons has pointed out lately, too, NFL coaches make a ton of really stupid decisions. I think coaching might be worse now than it was before teams spent hundreds of millions of dollars a year on coaching and scouting. You just see some incredibly stupid decisions going on pretty consistently. I don't have an explanation for this.And look at guys like Shell, Coughlin, Mora and Green.
But everybody associated with the NFL is making much more money now than they ever did. He might be on to something IF someone can show that coaching salaries have grown disproportionately in relation to the growth in overall NFL revenue, player salaries, etc. Similarly for college football.
 
I'll say one thing though, in TMQ's defense. As Bill Simmons has pointed out lately, too, NFL coaches make a ton of really stupid decisions. I think coaching might be worse now than it was before teams spent hundreds of millions of dollars a year on coaching and scouting. You just see some incredibly stupid decisions going on pretty consistently. I don't have an explanation for this.And look at guys like Shell, Coughlin, Mora and Green.
But everybody associated with the NFL is making much more money now than they ever did. He might be on to something IF someone can show that coaching salaries have grown disproportionately in relation to the growth in overall NFL revenue, player salaries, etc. Similarly for college football.
I'm off Easterbrook's point for now. I just think the level of coaching in the NFL isn't very good right now (or rather, isn't as good as it could or should be).
 
I'm off Easterbrook's point for now. I just think the level of coaching in the NFL isn't very good right now (or rather, isn't as good as it could or should be).
You might be right. It seems there's been an overwhelming trend by coaches since the Bill Walsh era (and the seemingly ubiquitous use of his offense) to force their pet systems on whatever team they end up coaching rather than adapting to the skill set of their players and I think that's why you see many burn outs and failures. Adaptable and innovative coaches seem to be in short supply.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Football Coach as God phenomenon has given a lot of coaches huge egos, which makes them inflexible, which perhaps leads to more stupid decisions.

 
For a really smart guy, Easterbrook comes off as a total and complete idiot here.
After reading TMQ for a while, I have to say this is not unusual. He's been mailing it in for about two years now.
I really enjoy his style of writing (which is similar to his brother's), and I like reading his column. But I don't think he knows that much about football, and I know he doesn't know anywhere near as much as he thinks.
Even though it's the same thing every week, I love reading the discussion of TMQ on Football Outsiders. Easterbrook is just so incredibly inconsistent with his football analysis. He ends up contradicting himself on a weekly basis.
 
My personal opinion, which I don't think is provable or disprovable, is not necessarily that coaching is overrated. Rather, I think coaching ability isn't nearly as linearly orderable as people seem to think.

Except possibly in very rare cases, I don't think it makes much sense to talk about whether Coach A "is a better coach than" Coach B. I think the real answer is that Coach A is a better fit for certain teams at certain times and Coach B would be a better fit for other teams at other times. Yes, Sean Payton "is a better coach than" Doug Drinen. But I don't know that he "is a better coach than" Rod Marinelli or Jim Mora, Jr. or Dennis Green or Mike Sherman or Norv Turner. Easterbrook is going down the ladder a bit too far bringing high school coaches into the discussion, but I'd guess that there are maybe 50 or 70 guys who are roughly equally "good" at coaching NFL football.

But I am not saying it doesn't matter which one of those guys the Cardinals hire this year. I think it matters immensely. I believe there is a correct choice for the Cardinals in 2007 and that the difference between the right choice and the wrong choice could be as much as 8 games in 2007. But just because Guy A is the right choice for the Cardinals in 2007 and Guy B isn't does NOT mean that Guy A "is a better coach than" Guy B. It means that Guy A is a better fit for that particular assignment.

So I do not think coaching is overrated. But I do think "coaching ability" and "coaching skill" are overrated.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
My personal opinion, which I don't think is provable or disprovable, is not necessarily that coaching is overrated. Rather, I think coaching ability isn't nearly as linearly orderable as people seem to think.

Except possibly in very rare cases, I don't think it makes much sense to talk about whether Coach A "is a better coach than" Coach B. I think the real answer is that Coach A is a better fit for certain teams at certain times and Coach B would be a better fit for other teams at other times. Yes, Sean Payton "is a better coach than" Doug Drinen. But I don't know that he "is a better coach than" Rod Marinelli or Jim Mora, Jr. or Dennis Green or Mike Sherman or Norv Turner. Easterbrook is going down the ladder a bit too far bringing high school coaches into the discussion, but I'd guess that there are maybe 50 or 70 guys who are roughly equally "good" at coaching NFL football.

But I am not saying it doesn't matter which one of those guys the Cardinals hire this year. I think it matters immensely. I believe there is a correct choice for the Cardinals in 2007 and that the difference between the right choice and the wrong choice could be as much as 8 games in 2007. But just because Guy A is the right choice for the Cardinals in 2007 and Guy B isn't does NOT mean that Guy A "is a better coach than" Guy B. It means that Guy A is a better fit for that particular assignment.

So I do not think coaching is overrated. But I do think "coaching ability" and "coaching skill" are overrated.
I believe this applies to QBs as well, and in lesser degrees, to all NFL positions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Coaching is not overrated.

Put Tom Coughlin on New England, they're a 7-9 team.

Put Belichick on the Giants, they're a 12-4 team.

just an example.

 
Let's see.

Which coaches made the playoffs this season:

Holmgren: 3 super bowl appearances.

Parcells: 3 super bowl appearances.

Belichick: 3 super bowl appearances.

Billick: 1 super bowl appearance.

Coughlin: 1 super bowl appearance.

Andy Reid: 1 super bowl appearance.

Dungy: 4 AFC/NFC title game appearances.

Schottenheimer: 3 AFC title game appearances.

Mangini OUT

Edwards OUT

Lovie Smith

Sean Payton

Looks almost like a good ol boys network. Two of the playoff head coaches with no extensive playoff resume are already OUT.

 
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith said:
Gregg Easterbrook is such a blowhard.
Kay Stephenson, **** McPherson, Gerry Faust were all successful coaches in their day. So was Mr. Zwigler, my little league coach.Everyone has their level.
 
:thumbup: :boxing: :lmao:

What a ridiculous article!! Twice as good (the example of the NFL coach vs. the HS coach) EASILY translates into 50X the money.

IN the high dollar, high stress world of NFl coaching, even 2% better then the average coach is probably worth double the money of the average coach. It's sometimes hard to see that 2% in an single season, but that doesn't mean it's not there!

Are coaches overpaid? Probably. Are they a critical part of the success of a professional franchise? USUALLY! Stick 30 pro-bowlers on one roster and the HS coach can probably win, because the differences due to coaching are small, but critical differences!

 
I have an interview on tape with John Wooden stuck in my garage somewhere. During the talk he says the talent you have to work with is the most important element, even though he does not think all coaches are the same. It was he thought that at the end of the day, he can't outcoach talent.

 
I have an interview on tape with John Wooden stuck in my garage somewhere. During the talk he says the talent you have to work with is the most important element, even though he does not think all coaches are the same. It was he thought that at the end of the day, he can't outcoach talent.
Well they say ole Bear Bryant could take his'n and beat your'n turn around take your'n and beat his'n.
 
I have an interview on tape with John Wooden stuck in my garage somewhere. During the talk he says the talent you have to work with is the most important element, even though he does not think all coaches are the same. It was he thought that at the end of the day, he can't outcoach talent.
Well they say ole Bear Bryant could take his'n and beat your'n turn around take your'n and beat his'n.
I thought that Bum Phillips said that, but I could be "Jack Daniels" confused. I remember that Alabama played some school with black athletes and Bear made objective to get black players on his squad after getting his hat handed to him (on purpose).
 
Chase Stuart said:
Doug Drinen said:
My personal opinion, which I don't think is provable or disprovable, is not necessarily that coaching is overrated. Rather, I think coaching ability isn't nearly as linearly orderable as people seem to think.

Except possibly in very rare cases, I don't think it makes much sense to talk about whether Coach A "is a better coach than" Coach B. I think the real answer is that Coach A is a better fit for certain teams at certain times and Coach B would be a better fit for other teams at other times. Yes, Sean Payton "is a better coach than" Doug Drinen. But I don't know that he "is a better coach than" Rod Marinelli or Jim Mora, Jr. or Dennis Green or Mike Sherman or Norv Turner. Easterbrook is going down the ladder a bit too far bringing high school coaches into the discussion, but I'd guess that there are maybe 50 or 70 guys who are roughly equally "good" at coaching NFL football.

But I am not saying it doesn't matter which one of those guys the Cardinals hire this year. I think it matters immensely. I believe there is a correct choice for the Cardinals in 2007 and that the difference between the right choice and the wrong choice could be as much as 8 games in 2007. But just because Guy A is the right choice for the Cardinals in 2007 and Guy B isn't does NOT mean that Guy A "is a better coach than" Guy B. It means that Guy A is a better fit for that particular assignment.

So I do not think coaching is overrated. But I do think "coaching ability" and "coaching skill" are overrated.
I believe this applies to QBs as well, and in lesser degrees, to all NFL positions.
I really agree with this and the article to a large extent. I think a TON of NFL players' and coaches' legacies are based off of WAY too small of a sample size. Just looking at coaches, it just seems like there are too many variables associated with the players on their teams that can change year in and year out. Is the coach twice as good when his team goes from 6-10 to 12-4 the next year? Did he coach better in the next year? Did his players just naturally develop with more experience, etc? There's a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time that allows certain players and especially coaches to be that much better than others imo.

 
Doug Drinen said:
But I am not saying it doesn't matter which one of those guys the Cardinals hire this year. I think it matters immensely. I believe there is a correct choice for the Cardinals in 2007 and that the difference between the right choice and the wrong choice could be as much as 8 games in 2007. But just because Guy A is the right choice for the Cardinals in 2007 and Guy B isn't does NOT mean that Guy A "is a better coach than" Guy B. It means that Guy A is a better fit for that particular assignment.
Sometimes though the correct choice isn't made for a myriad of reasons. Number one is how do you determine who the best one would be? Very qualitative for sure but sometimes there are other reasons.

Number two is that there are sometimes political or economic reasons for hiring someone, i.e. maybe an economic one is like a high profile coach sells season tickets versus hiring someone who you might think is really the best hire but he only has college coaching experience and won't put butts in the seats. Maybe a political one is that a terrific head coach is available but he has a DUI on his record and this team is in the bible belt and he wouldn't be accepted. Whatever the case may be, but there are a ton of examples not to mention the old boys club and the fact that nepotism and underperforming assistants will have unfair shots at some of these jobs.

I'd really like to see a shake up where some of the "best minds" or "coaches" of the game get shaken out by owners willing to just say that they're all paying way too much for quite a bit of random results that are much more dependent on their players' talent levels (antitrust?).

 
Part of this also has to do with one's definition of success.

If success to you means winning more than losing, you opinion about the value of coaching might differ from someone who defines success as winning super bowls.

 
Coaching, on the other hand, seems like something almost anyone could learn. In the end, we revere coaches as persons of incredible prowess when really they are not all that different from the typical man or woman. And they would prefer this not be generally understood, thank you.

What a jacka**!

I doubt he has enough practical experience with football or sports in general to make a determination on coaching and value associated with it.

 
dickey moe said:
I think it's over-rated in the NFL. If you don't have superior talent, you usually don't win in the NFL.Coaching is more important in college football, IMO.
Interesting take - I've always viewed this in the opposite way. In college, a big-time school can stockpile enough athletic talent to just overwhelm the opposition regardless of coaching. Talent levels are generally much more "equal" among NFL franchises - which is why coaches are so highly valued (though sometimes a bit irrationally).
 
Yes, talent wins out, but what happens when two teams are evenly matched? The team that is best prepared and has the best game plan to take advantage of, or to create mismatches. Many teams in the NFL have similar talent levels. The best coaches know what their player's strengths and weaknesses are, and put them in the best situation to win. Tell me.... how many CS's could have gotten the Jets to win 10 games this year? If Edwards were still in NY, that team would have been lucky to win 6 games. He is a coach that has his formula, and he refuses to adapt or change based on what his talent level is or what the opponent does best.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top