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The war in Afghanistan is over: we lost. (1 Viewer)

Biden doubling down on this failure during the ABC interview was very troubling. He literally said this couldn’t have been handled any better. Really??

The video from ABC News from the streets over there is so painful. This situation is coming undone quickly and all it takes is one hothead on either side to spark an uncontrollable situation. 

 
Courtjester said:
Biden doubling down on this failure during the ABC interview was very troubling. He literally said this couldn’t have been handled any better. Really??

The video from ABC News from the streets over there is so painful. This situation is coming undone quickly and all it takes is one hothead on either side to spark an uncontrollable situation. 
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The part where Stephanopoulos asks him about the people falling off the plane and Biden yells “it’s been 5 days!”.

It was 2 days.

And who the #### cares if it was five days or not.  Dude thinks he can hide in the basement for 5 days, answer no questions, and then get pissed when something that happened 2 days ago is brought up?

 
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timschochet said:
Please don’t accuse me of making stuff up. 
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You literally made up a stat and then challenged others to prove it false. It's not our job to prove it false, it's YOUR job to prove it true - sans hyperbole. 

It was a made up stat to to make it sound like what's going was unpredictable and to provide Biden cover, y'know, "because its the WORST collapse in history!". 

 
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djmich said:
The part where Stephanopoulos asks him about the people falling off the plane and Biden yells “it’s been 5 days!”.

It was 2 days.

And who the #### cares if it was five days or not.  Dude thinks he can hide in the basement for 5 days, answer no questions, and then get pissed when something that happened 2 days ago is brought up?
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Such an embarrassment for this administration.

Another one, to go with the rest.

 
BladeRunner said:
You literally made up a stat and then challenged others to prove it false. It's not our job to prove it false, it's YOUR job to prove it true - sans hyperbole. 

It was a made up stat to to make it sound like what's going was unpredictable and to provide Biden cover, y'know, "because its the WORST collapse in history!". 
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That’s not a stat, it’s a comparison, like “what is the best pizza?” . I didn’t make it up. I wrote it because I can’t think of a worse collapse. Not the French in 1870 or 1940, not the British at Singapore, not the Egyptians against Israel in 1948 ( although that one came close), not the Italians against the British in 1941 (OK that one comes DAMN close!) 

Its an opinion. You’re welcome to disagree with me. But if you do, then offer a countering opinion. Please don’t call me a liar. Tia. 

 
timschochet said:
This could be. I won’t argue it. But the two points are connected. 
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Of course they're connected. Isn't that the definition of the word contingency? If there wasn't a so-called "unprecedented failure in military history" there wouldn't be a need for a contingency plan after all. The problem was that there was no apparent contingency plan despite the warnings. What's the saying about the failure to plan?

 
The Taliban is now selling off US military equipment.  Some of it has already left country. 

Those are your tax dollars if you care. 

 
Max Power said:
The Taliban is now selling off US military equipment.  Some of it has already left country. 

Those are your tax dollars if you care. 
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Most won't (and I'm hard pressed to really get angry myself) because our Tax dollars are all over the world in various forms. Mostly illicit that we never even hear about. When you see it blatantly in front of your face by the people who were the enemy for the last 20 years, it does piss you off a bit though.

 
Insein said:
Most won't (and I'm hard pressed to really get angry myself) because our Tax dollars are all over the world in various forms. Mostly illicit that we never even hear about. When you see it blatantly in front of your face by the people who were the enemy for the last 20 years, it does piss you off a bit though.
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It is the incompetence level on the American side that hurts the most. I'm coming around on the theory that we're allowing this to happen. 

 
I know Biden gets the blame, as he should as CINC.  But I place more blame on Gen Milley and the Secretary of Defense.  Biden doesn't know how to run the armed forces... he was elected and that job comes with the territory.  Milley was appointed and is our top general.  He says he never had intel to believe this fast of a collapse would occur.  

Either our intelligence community stinks or Milley disregarded the briefings... or Milley isn't capable enough to recognize if the Afghan military was sufficiently trained and prepared to take over operations. Either way, he dropped the ball.

Bagram air base should have not been abandoned, let alone so early on in all this.  Forget about the Kabul airport.  Americans and Afghan evacuees should have been gathered and flown out of Bagram AB.  You don't give up your base of operations before everyone is out.  

Biden said he couldn't think of a way to do it less chaotic.  huh.  They could regroup and go back and retake Bagram AB where they set up operations for Operation Safe Evac.  Let the last boot on the ground leave on the last plane out of Bagram... after all civilians have departed. 

Milley and the Sec of Defense should resign.  

 
djmich said:
The part where Stephanopoulos asks him about the people falling off the plane and Biden yells “it’s been 5 days!”.

It was 2 days.

And who the #### cares if it was five days or not.  Dude thinks he can hide in the basement for 5 days, answer no questions, and then get pissed when something that happened 2 days ago is brought up?
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This is some politician BS if I've ever hear it.  He thinks he'll say it was 5 days ago and we'll just be like, "By God, he's right?!  How did no one realize it was 5 days ago?!?!"

As you said--what the heck does it matter if it was 5 days ago?  This is embarrassing and infurating that he thinks people are going to accept that answer.

 
jm192 said:
This is some politician BS if I've ever hear it.  He thinks he'll say it was 5 days ago and we'll just be like, "By God, he's right?!  How did no one realize it was 5 days ago?!?!"

As you said--what the heck does it matter if it was 5 days ago?  This is embarrassing and infurating that he thinks people are going to accept that answer.
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I think Biden believes it was 5 days ago.

 
Jayrok said:
I know Biden gets the blame, as he should as CINC.  But I place more blame on Gen Milley and the Secretary of Defense.  Biden doesn't know how to run the armed forces... he was elected and that job comes with the territory.  Milley was appointed and is our top general.  He says he never had intel to believe this fast of a collapse would occur.  

Either our intelligence community stinks or Milley disregarded the briefings... or Milley isn't capable enough to recognize if the Afghan military was sufficiently trained and prepared to take over operations. Either way, he dropped the ball.

Bagram air base should have not been abandoned, let alone so early on in all this.  Forget about the Kabul airport.  Americans and Afghan evacuees should have been gathered and flown out of Bagram AB.  You don't give up your base of operations before everyone is out.  

Biden said he couldn't think of a way to do it less chaotic.  huh.  They could regroup and go back and retake Bagram AB where they set up operations for Operation Safe Evac.  Let the last boot on the ground leave on the last plane out of Bagram... after all civilians have departed. 

Milley and the Sec of Defense should resign.  
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I think you're pretty spot on with your assessment, but I'll say the Intelligence wasn't bad, it was ignored by Biden (my assessment).

I think one of Milley or the Sec Def will have to fall on their sword here.  Probably Blinken as well. 

 
Max Power said:
I think you're pretty spot on with your assessment, but I'll say the Intelligence wasn't bad, it was ignored by Biden (my assessment).

I think one of Milley or the Sec Def will have to fall on their sword here.  Probably Blinken as well. 
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If the other culprits keep pushing back on the intelligence entitites, the  repercussions will be vicious and at a near-constant pace.

The intelligence community will leak the hell out of the Biden administration.

It'll feel like it'll never end.

 
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Max Power said:
I think you're pretty spot on with your assessment, but I'll say the Intelligence wasn't bad, it was ignored by Biden (my assessment).

I think one of Milley or the Sec Def will have to fall on their sword here.  Probably Blinken as well. 
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Milley seemed to be oblivious to the intelligence too.  His comments lead me to believe he didn't brief Biden that this would happen during this withdraw.  If he did brief Biden that this could happen this quickly then he's a liar.  He said there was no intelligence to suggest this could happen this quickly.  Seems someone isn't being truthful in DC.  Did Biden get intel from his Chairman of the Joint Chiefs or didn't he... and what were the contents of that briefing?  Plenty of blame to go around I suppose.  But leaders have to take responsibility.  To say "we had know idea that this would happen" isn't good enough.

 
jm192 said:
This is some politician BS if I've ever hear it.  He thinks he'll say it was 5 days ago and we'll just be like, "By God, he's right?!  How did no one realize it was 5 days ago?!?!"

As you said--what the heck does it matter if it was 5 days ago?  This is embarrassing and infurating that he thinks people are going to accept that answer.
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Saying it is water under the bridge and there's nothing we can do about it now worked for Benghazi.  Why not use it here too?  "Ah, that's old news, man. Let's get back to talking vaccine boosters." 

 
Jayrok said:
Milley seemed to be oblivious to the intelligence too.  His comments lead me to believe he didn't brief Biden that this would happen during this withdraw.  If he did brief Biden that this could happen this quickly then he's a liar.  He said there was no intelligence to suggest this could happen this quickly.  Seems someone isn't being truthful in DC.  Did Biden get intel from his Chairman of the Joint Chiefs or didn't he... and what were the contents of that briefing?  Plenty of blame to go around I suppose.  But leaders have to take responsibility.  To say "we had know idea that this would happen" isn't good enough.
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After the inevitable investigations occur, I wonder if we'll find out that this is a case of intelligence reports being "procured" to fit a specific narrative in order to get a few people with the right connections paid. Not like that would be unprecedented. 

 
Herb said:
After the inevitable investigations occur, I wonder if we'll find out that this is a case of intelligence reports being "procured" to fit a specific narrative in order to get a few people with the right connections paid. Not like that would be unprecedented. 
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Biden and the administration will be protected and if anyone is punished it will likely be the general. imo.

 
Jayrok said:
I know Biden gets the blame, as he should as CINC.  But I place more blame on Gen Milley and the Secretary of Defense.  Biden doesn't know how to run the armed forces... he was elected and that job comes with the territory.  Milley was appointed and is our top general.  He says he never had intel to believe this fast of a collapse would occur.  

Either our intelligence community stinks or Milley disregarded the briefings... or Milley isn't capable enough to recognize if the Afghan military was sufficiently trained and prepared to take over operations. Either way, he dropped the ball.

Bagram air base should have not been abandoned, let alone so early on in all this.  Forget about the Kabul airport.  Americans and Afghan evacuees should have been gathered and flown out of Bagram AB.  You don't give up your base of operations before everyone is out.  

Biden said he couldn't think of a way to do it less chaotic.  huh.  They could regroup and go back and retake Bagram AB where they set up operations for Operation Safe Evac.  Let the last boot on the ground leave on the last plane out of Bagram... after all civilians have departed. 

Milley and the Sec of Defense should resign.  
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No surprise that I look at this almost exactly opposite. I think it’s completely unreasonable to expect General Milley, or anyone else in our government, to anticipate that the Afghan army would collapse in just over a weeks time. IMO, it’s the worst form of Monday morning quarterbacking. Nobody projected this; nobody SHOULD have projected this. 
On the other hand- General Milley has suddenly been confronted with a grave crisis which he is not to blame for and had no reason to prepare for. It seems to me that the way to evaluate him in this crisis will be how he responds to it. From everything I have read and heard, he is doing so mostly very admirably. 

 
Jayrok said:
Milley seemed to be oblivious to the intelligence too.  His comments lead me to believe he didn't brief Biden that this would happen during this withdraw.  If he did brief Biden that this could happen this quickly then he's a liar.  He said there was no intelligence to suggest this could happen this quickly.  Seems someone isn't being truthful in DC.  Did Biden get intel from his Chairman of the Joint Chiefs or didn't he... and what were the contents of that briefing?  Plenty of blame to go around I suppose.  But leaders have to take responsibility.  To say "we had know idea that this would happen" isn't good enough.
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If there is one criticism of Milley that seems accurate its that he is a "yes" man.  Sometimes more politician than a general.  If Milley really didn't think the TB takeover was in the spectrum of possibility he is a horrible general. 

Like I said, I think Milley knew and he is preparing to take the fall for Biden. 

I linked some talking points from a reporter named Lucas Tomlinson a couple pages back where he was pretty adamant that the SEC DEF wasn't on board with the withdrawal plan from the get go and was trying to get the Pentagon to acknowledge as much. 

 
Max Power said:
If there is one criticism of Milley that seems accurate its that he is a "yes" man.  Sometimes more politician than a general.  If Milley really didn't think the TB takeover was in the spectrum of possibility he is a horrible general. 

Like I said, I think Milley knew and he is preparing to take the fall for Biden. 

I linked some talking points from a reporter named Lucas Tomlinson a couple pages back where he was pretty adamant that the SEC DEF wasn't on board with the withdrawal plan from the get go and was trying to get the Pentagon to acknowledge as much. 
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Milley certainly did think the Taliban takeover was possible- he said so. He just didn’t think it would happen in a few days. Not sure why this is so hard for people to get. 

 
timschochet said:
Milley certainly did think the Taliban takeover was possible- he said so. He just didn’t think it would happen in a few days. Not sure why this is so hard for people to get. 
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So your take is that he planned poorly? You can't say something is in the realm of possibility, and then not plan for it, and then say we couldn't have done anything different. 

 
Max Power said:
So your take is that he planned poorly? You can't say something is in the realm of possibility, and then not plan for it, and then say we couldn't have done anything different. 
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Or can think we had time to get everyone out before they took over and were resigned to them eventually taking over being inevitable.

 
timschochet said:
No surprise that I look at this almost exactly opposite. I think it’s completely unreasonable to expect General Milley, or anyone else in our government, to anticipate that the Afghan army would collapse in just over a weeks time. IMO, it’s the worst form of Monday morning quarterbacking. Nobody projected this; nobody SHOULD have projected this. 
On the other hand- General Milley has suddenly been confronted with a grave crisis which he is not to blame for and had no reason to prepare for. It seems to me that the way to evaluate him in this crisis will be how he responds to it. From everything I have read and heard, he is doing so mostly very admirably. 
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Well, you're certainly right about one thing.  No surprise you look at it exactly opposite.  

Ever hear of contingency planning?  Planning military operations includes various "what ifs" and they are also planned for.  To simply shut down your only base of operations and just say deuces, we're out... while leaving American civilians behind to fend for themselves, whether intentionally or not, is absurd.  

Do you think they never considered the Taliban reaction?  The Afghan military's reaction?  The Afghan president's reaction to them hastily leaving?  Bagram should have remained open and operational until the end.  

The bottom line is they put their trust in the Afghan gov and army.  And that's ok, but it's not an excuse when there are Americans in harms way.  They trusted that the Afghans would hold security.  They were wrong. If Bagram was still functional, this fiasco at the airport would not be happening. 

Perhaps the Afghan army and leadership wasn't properly trained to maintain security.  Again, Milley is in command.  It's his rodeo along with the command on the ground.  

So it isn't about "projecting" this outcome.  It is about preparing for contingencies. This had to be one of them in consideration.  If not, and it showed everyone's pants around their ankles... then shame on leadership.

But what we have is our leader(s) saying "there's nothing we could have done differently."  BS.

 
timschochet said:
Milley certainly did think the Taliban takeover was possible- he said so. He just didn’t think it would happen in a few days. Not sure why this is so hard for people to get. 
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Because, for like the third time, the timing is semantics.  Its not some controversial statement to say we should get americans and allies out first, THEN troops.  Not sure why you don't get that.  Your comment about leaving civilians behind so as not to demoralize the Afghan army was so out of touch I feel like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 
Max Power said:
So your take is that he planned poorly? You can't say something is in the realm of possibility, and then not plan for it, and then say we couldn't have done anything different. 
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That’s not what I wrote. I’m telling you he did not plan poorly because a Taliban takeover within a few days was not a reasonable possibility. 
 

Let me offer a quick analogy: prior to an NFL football game, the coaches work very hard to make a game plan and they have a list of contingencies. But nobody every says “suppose our QB throws 3 interceptions in a row and we’re down 28-0 in the first quarter?” Of course that’s possible; of course it happens sometimes. But nobody plans on it as a reasonable possibility. When it happens, the coaches throw out their game plan and respond to the situation as best they can. After the game, they analyze what went wrong. But nobody ever says “the coaches should have known we’d fall behind 28-0; fore them all!” Because that would not be a reasonable response. And the only reason it seems to be a majority response in THIS situation is largely for partisan, political purposes. 

 
unckeyherb said:
Because, for like the third time, the timing is semantics.  Its not some controversial statement to say we should get americans and allies out first, THEN troops.  Not sure why you don't get that.  Your comment about leaving civilians behind so as not to demoralize the Afghan army was so out of touch I feel like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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:yes:

 
Max Power said:
  If Milley really didn't think the TB takeover was in the spectrum of possibility he is a horrible general. 

Like I said, I think Milley knew and he is preparing to take the fall for Biden. 
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Exactly. Either way he doesn't come out looking very good.  But I do believe he can regroup and fix this.

 
unckeyherb said:
Because, for like the third time, the timing is semantics.  Its not some controversial statement to say we should get americans and allies out first, THEN troops.  Not sure why you don't get that.  Your comment about leaving civilians behind so as not to demoralize the Afghan army was so out of touch I feel like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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First off, it’s not semantics. Second, I’m not arguing for the sake of arguing. I truly believe what I’m writing here. I can’t prove that to you but I do ask that you respect me and take my word for it. Some here are not doing that. 
 

Now as to your point- the reason we did not take our allies out before taking our troops out, from what I’ve read, is that doing so would almost guarantee a sure collapse of the Afghan army and government and we didn’t want that to happen- we were hoping for a negotiated settlement between the two sides and that could only take place if the the side we supported was still strong. That’s what our government explained from all reports, and while I have no idea if it’s true I also have no reason to think it isn’t, because it makes a lot of reasonable sense IMO. 

 
The US military had to know the Afghan army was going to cave quickly.  It’s not like we just go there.  Good grief people.  This was a major F up and rather than own it and learn from it, the leaders and their sheep supporters just roll out excuses that don’t hold water.  

 
timschochet said:
First off, it’s not semantics. Second, I’m not arguing for the sake of arguing. I truly believe what I’m writing here. I can’t prove that to you but I do ask that you respect me and take my word for it. Some here are not doing that. 
 

Now as to your point- the reason we did not take our allies out before taking our troops out, from what I’ve read, is that doing so would almost guarantee a sure collapse of the Afghan army and government and we didn’t want that to happen- we were hoping for a negotiated settlement between the two sides and that could only take place if the the side we supported was still strong. That’s what our government explained from all reports, and while I have no idea if it’s true I also have no reason to think it isn’t, because it makes a lot of reasonable sense IMO. 
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It IS semantics because "quickly" is so subjective that even your own definition is months to years.  That is such a wild swing of timing.  We know that the Afghan forces were regarded internally as a joke, uncontrollable, corrupt, etc.  If the decision makers knew this (and it appears that they did) they should have prepared for the worst possible scenario.  They didn't.  They left their AF base under cover of darkness.  They left upwards of 10,000 Ameicans to traverse the Taliban run countryside without escort.  

 
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