timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (2 Viewers)

[dparker713]

(thanks mostly to another Chief Justice who will appear later on this list.)

Any Chief Justice placed ahead of Marshall is a mistake.

We'll have that argument later.

We don't have three independent branches of government without Marshall. Leaving aside his other amazing accomplishments, that alone is enough to place him much higher and especially higher than Warren. You could maybe make a case that Holmes and a few other judges have been more influential based upon their writings shaping the education of every lawyer for decades, but Marshall is by far our most influential Chief Justice.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Chester A. Arthur (1881-1885)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

If you want a career bureaucrat in the White House – Arthur is your guy. Policy wonk and political lieutenant were his trades. He wasn’t going to get anyone to follow him through a brick wall, but he would be able to tell you who built the wall, the type of brick used and where its engineering weakness was. You can liken him in many respects to another President about a century later – Jimmy Carter.

Upon taking office Arthur made it clear that while he was who he was prior to becoming President, he was going to be his own man and do things the way he wanted. Party bosses weren’t a huge fan of that position. And in the end, through problems and good work, Arthur spent most of his time on the most important thing to him as President – renovating the White House. The general public isn’t going to love you when you spend your time with Louis Tiffany in the White House picking out drapes and furniture.

War & Crisis

Domestic affairs controlled his time in office and there was no war to be had. And the political fights within his own party never reached crisis level. In as much as we want President’s to handle crisis, Arthur’s presidency can be remembered for not really having any. There were policy fights, but not crisis’.

Economy

Arthur focused his efforts here on reducing tariffs and taxes as the country had a rather large surplus of money and the administration of the policies was creating problems. Going against his own party and moving more than Democrats ever though a President would he supported reducing tariffs by over 20% across the board. In turn, ignoring Arthur’s call, Congress passed the Mongrel Tariff which would turn out to be a financial disaster.

Arthur also signed the Pendelton Act which was the first sweeping civil service reform in a generation. He wasn’t a supporter of it at first though which many history books get wrong. This was really Garfield’s baby and the assassination of Garfield was the political flame that finally got Congress and the public to support it. The act completely reworked many federal jobs but ignored state jobs and was not retroactive so that Republicans would stay in office even if a Democrat won the White House. The fighting over this policy and how it grew over the next decade does shape how the government started dealing with its own funding, its own functions and how it worked with the economy.

Foreign Policy

Arthur is considered the father of the modern American navy having called for a complete reform and overhaul of the navy and our warships. He began building metal ships in force and began a process that a later President’s desperately needed.

Work on a Panama or Nicaragua canal was still going on and Arthur’s people tried to work a treaty with Nicaragua to build the canal but Congress wouldn’t support it as it violated a treaty with Britain. Other treaties he tried to get were all fought by Congress is varying ways and he ended up with little to hold on to here.

Executive Skills/Congress

He was an expert at the daily pushing of paper that an executive has to do. He didn’t work well with Congress. And he wasn’t won to fight bloody political battles. This may be because shortly after being elected Vice President he was diagnosed with a fatal kidney disease that he kept quiet. But it took its toll on his heart.

Justice/Rights

The Supreme Court struck down the Civil Rights Act of 1875 and Arthur pled with Congress to get a new one to no avail. A supporter of equal rights he had little political power to do anything about it. Seeing the writing on the wall in the south Arthur actually formed a coalition of southerners, the Readjusters, with the hope that if he gave them political appointments and powers they could slowly change the south. Most of the republicans went nuts but it was a pragmatic approach. It just didn’t get anywhere. And when the Democrats took the White House for the first time since the civil war, the program died.

Arthur tried to work on Indian policy as well but didn’t get very far and everything he tried was overturned and repealed by his successor.

Context

Arthur wasn’t supposed to be President. He was His Accidency, not John Tyler. He didn’t have the stature, ability or political awareness to do it. But he did try to work on the issues of the day. His work with the navy was vital and his ultimate support of civil service reform was a massive sea change in the way Washington operated. But his inability to be a true leader resulted in the Democrats winning the White House and with it the era of the Republicans running the country came to an end. Reconstruction was over and replaced with awful black code laws in the south, the economy was solid, and there was no world power hell bent on attacking American interests. His context is the definition of bland. And because of it he is a forgotten President.

Conclusion

On persuasion Arthur gets a 3, on crisis a 3, economy 3, foreign policy 3, congress 3, civil rights 2, and context 3. 20 total points. An uninspiring President focused more on pretty furniture in his office and mundane minutia of policy, Arthur wasn’t a leader. And his score reflects that.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Some of us are just reading the updates without commentary. I just like learning stuff from smart guys.

Other are waiting for the top 20 fruits update. I think YF23 and Tim should keep the updates coming. Some of it is quite interesting.

Yeah - where's the next fruit update?!?!

 

[timschochet]

85. Clarence Darrow

I have suffered from being misunderstood, but I would have suffered a hell of a lot more if I had been understood.

Unfortunately, Clarence Darrow is mostly forgotten. The only image Americans have left of him (and then, only some over a certain age) is of the actor Spencer Tracy in the film Inherit the Wind, and that's only a fictional portrayal: the character is named Henry Drummond, though Darrow did do and say most of things as described in that film, which is of course about the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1924, arguably Darrow's most famous case. (Incidentally, that film is probably our only depiction of H.L. Mencken, oddly played by Gene Kelly. The journalist Mencken is someone who I really wanted to have in this top 100 list and just failed to make the cut.) Darrow has also been portrayed in film by such actors as Orson Welles and Kevin Spacey, but not as famously.

But during his heyday, Darrow was our greatest trial lawyer, and is widely regarded as perhaps the greatest in history. This is not only a result of his famous cases: besides Scopes, he defended Leopold and Loeb, Eugene Debs, Big Bill Haywood, Grace Fortescue (the famous Massie trial in Hawaii) and scores of others. It's also because he was a famous liberal, a great civil libertarian (he was connected to the ACLU for most of his career) with a great wit and sense of humor. His speeches before the court were spellbinding and moving, his cross-examinations devastating and legendary. He was opposed to the death penalty and, during the Leopold and Loeb trial, made this passionate argument, which still may be the best one against capital punishment ever:

The easy thing and the popular thing to do is to hang my clients. I know it. Men and women who do not think will applaud. The cruel and the thoughtless will approve. It will be easy today; but in Chicago, and reaching out over the length and breadth of the land, more and more fathers and mothers, the humane, the kind, and the hopeful, who are gaining an understanding and asking questions not only about these poor boys but about their own, these will join in no acclaim at the death of my clients. But, Your Honor, what they shall ask may not count. I know the easy way. I know Your Honor stands between the future and the past. I know the future is with me, and what I stand for here; not merely for the lives of these two unfortunate lads, but for all boys and all girls; for all of the young, and as far as possible, for all of the old. I am pleading for life, understanding, charity, kindness, and the infinite mercy that considers all. I am pleading that we overcome cruelty with kindness and hatred with love. I know the future is on my side. Your Honor stands between the past and the future. You may hang these boys; you may hang them, by the neck until they are dead. But in doing it you will turn your face toward the past. In doing it you are making it harder for every other boy who in ignorance and darkness must grope his way through the mazes which only childhood knows. In doing it you will make it harder for unborn children. You may save them and make it easier for every child that some time may stand where these boys stand. You will make it easier for every human being with an aspiration and a vision and a hope and a fate. I am pleading for the future; I am pleading for a time when hatred and cruelty will not control the hearts of men. When we can learn by, reason and judgment and understanding and faith that all life is worth saving, and that mercy is the highest attribute of man.

Darrow was one of the first men targeted by conservative critics as a "bleeding heart liberal".

Up next: He almost single-handedly created the steel industry in the United States.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Tim, I guess I will take this over here. I asked you to provide one whole sentence from Hillary's UN speech that wasn't a lie.

Chester A. Arthur (1881-1885)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

If you want a career bureaucrat in the White House – Arthur is your guy. Policy wonk and political lieutenant were his trades. He wasn’t going to get anyone to follow him through a brick wall, but he would be able to tell you who built the wall, the type of brick used and where its engineering weakness was. You can liken him in many respects to another President about a century later – Jimmy Carter.

Upon taking office Arthur made it clear that while he was who he was prior to becoming President, he was going to be his own man and do things the way he wanted. Party bosses weren’t a huge fan of that position. And in the end, through problems and good work, Arthur spent most of his time on the most important thing to him as President – renovating the White House. The general public isn’t going to love you when you spend your time with Louis Tiffany in the White House picking out drapes and furniture.

War & Crisis

Domestic affairs controlled his time in office and there was no war to be had. And the political fights within his own party never reached crisis level. In as much as we want President’s to handle crisis, Arthur’s presidency can be remembered for not really having any. There were policy fights, but not crisis’.

Economy

Arthur focused his efforts here on reducing tariffs and taxes as the country had a rather large surplus of money and the administration of the policies was creating problems. Going against his own party and moving more than Democrats ever though a President would he supported reducing tariffs by over 20% across the board. In turn, ignoring Arthur’s call, Congress passed the Mongrel Tariff which would turn out to be a financial disaster.

Arthur also signed the Pendelton Act which was the first sweeping civil service reform in a generation. He wasn’t a supporter of it at first though which many history books get wrong. This was really Garfield’s baby and the assassination of Garfield was the political flame that finally got Congress and the public to support it. The act completely reworked many federal jobs but ignored state jobs and was not retroactive so that Republicans would stay in office even if a Democrat won the White House. The fighting over this policy and how it grew over the next decade does shape how the government started dealing with its own funding, its own functions and how it worked with the economy.

Foreign Policy

Arthur is considered the father of the modern American navy having called for a complete reform and overhaul of the navy and our warships. He began building metal ships in force and began a process that a later President’s desperately needed.

Work on a Panama or Nicaragua canal was still going on and Arthur’s people tried to work a treaty with Nicaragua to build the canal but Congress wouldn’t support it as it violated a treaty with Britain. Other treaties he tried to get were all fought by Congress is varying ways and he ended up with little to hold on to here.

Executive Skills/Congress

He was an expert at the daily pushing of paper that an executive has to do. He didn’t work well with Congress. And he wasn’t won to fight bloody political battles. This may be because shortly after being elected Vice President he was diagnosed with a fatal kidney disease that he kept quiet. But it took its toll on his heart.

Justice/Rights

The Supreme Court struck down the Civil Rights Act of 1875 and Arthur pled with Congress to get a new one to no avail. A supporter of equal rights he had little political power to do anything about it. Seeing the writing on the wall in the south Arthur actually formed a coalition of southerners, the Readjusters, with the hope that if he gave them political appointments and powers they could slowly change the south. Most of the republicans went nuts but it was a pragmatic approach. It just didn’t get anywhere. And when the Democrats took the White House for the first time since the civil war, the program died.

Arthur tried to work on Indian policy as well but didn’t get very far and everything he tried was overturned and repealed by his successor.

Context

Arthur wasn’t supposed to be President. He was His Accidency, not John Tyler. He didn’t have the stature, ability or political awareness to do it. But he did try to work on the issues of the day. His work with the navy was vital and his ultimate support of civil service reform was a massive sea change in the way Washington operated. But his inability to be a true leader resulted in the Democrats winning the White House and with it the era of the Republicans running the country came to an end. Reconstruction was over and replaced with awful black code laws in the south, the economy was solid, and there was no world power hell bent on attacking American interests. His context is the definition of bland. And because of it he is a forgotten President.

Conclusion

On persuasion Arthur gets a 3, on crisis a 3, economy 3, foreign policy 3, congress 3, civil rights 2, and context 3. 20 total points. An uninspiring President focused more on pretty furniture in his office and mundane minutia of policy, Arthur wasn’t a leader. And his score reflects that.

Wow, I've learned a little about Garfield and Arthur and as it turns out they were reform presidents. Calling Arthur a "career bureaucrat" is kind of a compliment, reality is he soaked up machine checks for years but didn't really do much of anything, but personally people especially politicians liked him, a lot. He was a solid spoils choice, just ask him to sign here, However, apparently Arthur - who literally had no idea he was in nomination to be VP, didn't want to be VP, and then did not want to be president, at all - turned into a terrific president, perhaps out of loyalty and respect for the slain Garfield. He rejected Conklin, actually managed to have him driven from office, which was a huge deal, and took over control of the presidency' destiny.

Garfield and Arthur handled the number one reform effort of the age and they succeeded at it. At least bump him (and Garfield) up in your first category.

 

[Arodin]

Justice/Rights

The Supreme Court struck down the Civil Rights Act of 1875 and Arthur pled with Congress to get a new one to no avail. A supporter of equal rights he had little political power to do anything about it. Seeing the writing on the wall in the south Arthur actually formed a coalition of southerners, the Readjusters, with the hope that if he gave them political appointments and powers they could slowly change the south. Most of the republicans went nuts but it was a pragmatic approach. It just didn’t get anywhere. And when the Democrats took the White House for the first time since the civil war, the program died.

Arthur tried to work on Indian policy as well but didn’t get very far and everything he tried was overturned and repealed by his successor.



Conclusion

On persuasion Arthur gets a 3, on crisis a 3, economy 3, foreign policy 3, congress 3, civil rights 2, and context 3. 20 total points. An uninspiring President focused more on pretty furniture in his office and mundane minutia of policy, Arthur wasn’t a leader. And his score reflects that.

Surprised you give Arthur so low a rights score when he not only worked toward improvements here, he didn't really do anything to set back the progress of civil rights in this country. Perhaps your general distaste for his "boringness" is pushing some of his scores down? I'd think he'd rate a 4 in there somewhere, just on effort.

Hard to penalize a guy so far for not having any crises while in office, too. Surely the act of navigating a term without crisis is sufficiently positive to merit a 5? Right now he's tied with Van Buren, who was something of a failure with the crises he did face...

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Robert Todd Lincoln standing next to him when he was shot

Correct me if I'm wrong on this cuz I'm doing this from memory but IIRC Rob Lincoln was with his Dad when he was shot, he was with Garfield when he was shot, and he was with McKinley when he was shot.

Rob Lincoln was with three presidents when they were assassinated.

Also discussed this early re Huey Long, but the closest thing I have ever heard to doctors botching the care of an important historical man in a similar way was Garfield. And it may have been Rob Lincoln's fault. Supposedly Lincoln called on his own surgeon (name escapes me) because after all like I said he was there, to help Garfield at the train station where he was shot. And apparently Garfield wasn't that badly wounded, but it seems that anti-germ hygiene as a theory had just been introduced into American by Dr. Lister from the UK and it was extremely controversial and at first rejected but it had begin to slowly take hold. Well it turns out that one of the dead-end resisters to the theory was this same physician that Rob Lincoln had brought in. This guy went into the wound - unwashed - and dug around looking for Garfield's bullet, to no avail. Another doctor came along, still at the train station and he rooted around in the rib cage area, again with no luck. So Garfield at this point is now twice infected and has practically been doomed to death. What makes it worse is that this doctor apparently takes Garfield until his sole care, won't let any other physicians see him, insists that Garfield not go to the hospital but instead had to be treated in his bedroom at the White House. Garfield dies over the course of like two months, slowly, painfully. Then to compound this complete screwup the doctor starts giving Garfield quinine because of the fear of yellow fever epidemic which had been spreading from the nearby backwaters of the Potomac basin,, which treatment essentially just poisoned Garfield. So on top of having rampant, surging sepsis Garfield is being poisoned, and he eventually wastes away to under 100 pounds.

I might have smudged a few facts here because again this is off the top of my head but that's the story of one of the greatest botched medical treatments in US history.

 

[dschuler]

Tom Brady should be #1

 

[Yankee23Fan]

The raw scores are only the first step here. Basically all the cards fell out of the deck and I'm just,trying to get them face up and square before putting them in order.

 

[timschochet]

Tom Brady should be #1

Are we talking greatest American, President, or fruit?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Ha

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Tom Brady should be #1

Are we talking greatest American, President, or fruit?

Tim.....FYI.....he hasn't been President and the guy is not a fruit. I hope that helps.

 

[timschochet]

Tom Brady should be #1

Are we talking greatest American, President, or fruit?

Tim.....FYI.....he hasn't been President and the guy is not a fruit. I hope that helps.

It helps me understand you a little better.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Tom Brady should be #1

Are we talking greatest American, President, or fruit?

Tim.....FYI.....he hasn't been President and the guy is not a fruit. I hope that helps.

It helps me understand you a little better.

That's good....always trying to help you Tim. You need it.

 

[renesauz]

Terrific read over the last 20 pages or so. I've been quiet, but learning a lot. to both TIm and Y23

 

[dparker713]

85. Clarence Darrow

Darrow is certainly famous, but how is he particularly important?

And the cases you cited, he's like 2-3 if you consider Leopold and Loeb a win - and he only avoid the death penalty in that case.

 

[jon_mx]

Tim's list is unique if nothing else. You could ask a thousand people to list the 100 most important Americans and a handful might list Madonna, but none would include Clarence Darrow.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Grover Cleveland (1885-1889 & 1893-1897)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

The answer to the most over used trivia question in American presidential history – What President’s first name was Stephen and no one knows that. Yeah, yeah, the non-consecutive thing too.

When election time came around Grover Cleveland was an obvious choice for Democrats. He would carry the south because of the party and he could carry New York because of his popularity there coming off of his battles with the Tammany Hall political machine. He had a reputation as a reformer who would attack corruption whenever it was. Cleveland didn’t run so much against his first opponent, Secretary Blaine, so much as he ran against the Republican party of the past 20 years, so ingrained into politics by this time that they were the face of corruption and federal largess. After years of in fighting in the republican party over reconstruction the balance of power between Congress and the President and everything else that a party in power for 20 years is going to fall victim to, the time was ripe for a Democrat to win the White House for the first time since James Buchanan. Cleveland’s background and reputation carried the day, barely edging out a win in New York and with it the Presidency.

Of course, unlike every other president there is more to the story. He barely won his first election. After four years in office the same arguments were made with tariffs being the main issue and in the four years he was in office the Republicans regrouped in New York and few other states and got ready for the 1888 election. Running against the next man on the list, Benjamin Harrison, Cleveland focused solely on issues (as did Harrison) but Republicans had a better ground game this time around. The Democrats split their ticket in New York in the governor’s race and with it they managed to lose New York. Cleveland may have been able to withstand that, but voter fraud in Indiana at the hands of the republican party in that state carried Indiana and with it, Harrison beat Cleveland – but Clevland had more popular votes.

Over the next four years Harrison assisted in destroying the economy. When the 1892 election came around, Cleveland was still the top man in the party and still seen as someone who could win New York. In yet another close election he managed to beat Harrison’s re-election bid. But as we will see with Harrison later, there were other reasons for that beyond politics. Cleveland was an honorable man with regards to Harrison in that election. In taking office a second time, Cleveland is the only President to win the popular vote three times in a row. He managed a decent party in a time when there was an almost equal split among the people between Democrats and Republicans and had to govern during that. Not unlike our current polity that is fairly close there was no great movement for Cleveland or against him. He won’t get a top score here, but gaining the popular vote three years in a row and being re-elected after standing up to Congress in his first term gives him a solid grade.

War & Crisis

America had treaty rights to the island of Samoa and plans were to eventually build a naval base there. But Germany tried to install a puppet dictator to rule the island. Cleveland sent a naval attack force to the island to press American rights in the area. Instead of shots being fired, diplomats for America, Germany and England came up with an agreement for a shared protectorate of the island which Cleveland was forced to accept by Congress but never approved of seeing it as an attack on the Monroe Doctrine.

In his second term Cleveland did not agree with Harrison’s moves in Hawaii that displaced the queen. Cleveland attempted to draw back American interests and re-install her to power but American business interest there fought him and he eventually gave up trying leaving the matter to Congress to deal with. At the same time, England was pressing more issues in Venezuala and the government there asked America to help. Cleveland quickly agreed seeing it as a continuation of American policy in the region. He threatened England with war over the area. A war cry began in America and just as it was reaching its fevered pitch, diplomats agreed to international arbitration over the dispute without a shot fired. The result is still not really clear in history but it did restore America’s Monroe Doctrine in the area as something President’s would adhere to.

Cleveland also had to deal with a massive depression upon taking office the second time. The debates about money policy, gold and silver continued and Cleveland managed to get a few plans passed to eventually ease the crisis.

Economy

Cleveland vetoed hundreds of bills when Congress tried to increase pension benefits for Civil War vets. Cleveland tried to remove silver in his first term and went to war with Congress and his own party over it. By the end of his term neither side gained any traction on the issue. He also wanted to decrease tariff’s like any good Democrat at the time but those fights, again, went nowhere.

In his second term the silver issue was still a problem. The government had less and less gold to back the currency. Cleveland was eventually forced to support a bill to repeal the Silver Purchase Act which ended up being the end of the fight over silver coinage. These fights and the depression led to several labor strikes, none bigger than the Pullman Strike which shut down railroads. Cleveland threatened to use the military to open up the rails again, and with it the mail that was vitally important, and the threat and strikes resulted in the Republicans obliterating the Democrats in the congressional elections. The Democratic party fractured and Cleveland lost all base of support in the party.

Foreign Policy

He didn’t win in Samoa but he didn’t lose. He sent troops to Panama to put down a rebellion there. He sent troops to Brazil of all places as well and that didn’t go very well either. In his second term he tried to fix Hawaii and give it back to the queen but couldn’t lead that fight or convince Congress and had to wash his hands of the whole thing. And he repealed the treaty that previous presidents were working with to build a canal in Nicaragua. His main policy with foreign affairs was to stay away from territorial expansion and its fights and not get into alliances. He was an isolationist mainly and he did his best to stick to that in both terms.

Executive Skills/Congress

He vetoed the most bills by any President up to his first term. A reformer who wanted and could fight corruption he refused to remove republicans from office simply because they were republicans. He rarely sent his own legislation to Congress and focused more on the government running better and smaller. Republicans in Congress tried to fight him over removing anyone from office with the Tenure of Office Act but Cleveland stood up to them, forced executive power on them when he had to, and they eventually backed down. But overall his grade with congress in general is mixed at best.

Justice/Rights

Cleveland was a typical democrat who saw reconstruction as a failure. He rarely if ever used federal power to enforce the 15th Amendment in the south. He didn’t support Chinese immigration in the west and supported a bill that refused re-entry to the country of any Chinese person who left and tried to come back. Immediately upon taking office the first time he rescinded Arthur’s order to open lands to Indians in the west. In his second go around he fought against the Force Bill which would have given some power to voting rights. And Cleveland had to deal with a growing movement for new political rights – woman’s suffrage. He never publically supported it, because he didn’t, but he did publically say that woman’s political clubs were good things because the women would encourage their husband’s to vote.

About the only thing with woman’s rights at the time that Cleveland took a stand on was to condemn the practice of polygamy.

Context

When he took office the first time he was the first Democrat in this office since James Buchanan. He focused most of his energy on reform and limiting special interests in government than an actual legislative agenda of his own. He chose his cabinet based on merit and used them to run the government for the most part. He was the uniquely qualified Democrat to win the first time and he remained that guy four years later. Reconstruction was dead and he fit in with that as well. As to foreign policy he was isolationist for the most part, trying to focus on internal issues. And because of that he handled foreign policy, most of the time, with delicacy trying not to start anything he really had no intention of following through on – Samoa the one true exception.

Cleveland is about as close to a definition of the times he served in as any President could be. Always popular with the majority, he was never popular enough to force anything or lead above the times. He managed the times well though and he should be remember for more than just the non-consecutive thing.

Conclusion

On persuasion he gets a 6, on crisis he gets a 6, on economy he gets a 6, foreign policy 5, congress 4, civil rights 3, and context 7. 37 total points. Solid but unspectacular. It’s a pretty accurate description of Grover Cleveland. And in his first term he married a 19 year old woman. So, good job Steve. Good job.

 

[timschochet]

85. Clarence Darrow

Darrow is certainly famous, but how is he particularly important?

And the cases you cited, he's like 2-3 if you consider Leopold and Loeb a win - and he only avoid the death penalty in that case.

He's our most famous, greatest trial attorney plus one the greatest liberal icons, so that was enough for me to find a spot for him in the 100.

 

[whoknew]

85. Clarence Darrow

Darrow is certainly famous, but how is he particularly important?

And the cases you cited, he's like 2-3 if you consider Leopold and Loeb a win - and he only avoid the death penalty in that case.

He's our most famous, greatest trial attorney plus one the greatest liberal icons, so that was enough for me to find a spot for him in the 100.

That's twice you've said this and, while it may be true, I don't think its clear at all.

Joe Jamail, for example, has had a pretty damn successful career.

 

[timschochet]

Well it's my opinion, you don't have to share it.

FTR, I expected some of my picks on this list would garner a lot of feedback and criticism. I didn't anticipate Clarence Darrow to be one of those. Interesting.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Benjamin Harrison (1889-1893)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

Harrison cut himself in half before his administration got off the ground. After beating Cleveland thanks solely to political bosses and their campaigning it was believed that those bosses would be getting cabinet posts and other nice jobs. Harrison refused and only nominated 2 bosses. Immediately Congress backed away from him and made his four years difficult.

Unlike Cleveland he ran on and passed a series of a bills that supported pensions for Civil War veterans. He continued reforms in civil service previous president’s fought for. But his infighting with his own party and inability to work with them led to worse economic policy and eventually a depression. By the end of his term he was ripe to be defeated and Grover Cleveland was ready to do it. Harrison did, though, have a great speaking voice and temperament and always played well to large crowds. He is middle of the pack here.

War & Crisis

The tariff and coinage fights were at their peak in his term. His actions and the fights over them led to a depression so he doesn’t get good grades for that. He did sign the Sherman Anti-Trust act which fits into a few categories here. He had to use the navy to force American fishing rights on the coast of Alaska and settled that fairly well. He also faced an almost war with Chile when several navymen were murdered in that country on leave. Harrison put the navy on war readiness and threatened the Chilean government unless they dealt with the matter the way he wanted. At first they declined, but Harrison stood firm, the cabinet and congress backed him, and eventually Chile backed down.

Harrison also allowed the annexation of Hawaii by a coup against the Queen. He quickly supported a bill in Congress to have America recognize the new government there over what was likely almost universal condemnation from the people who actually lived on the island that weren’t American businessmen. Cleveland, back in office just a few months later, attempted to reverse that course to no avail. Many historians write that we basically stole Hawaii in this event and they probably aren’t wrong. But Hawaii was going to be a American protectorate at worst anyway so this was bound to happen.

Economy

He supported the republican position on tariffs and coinage. With his support Congress passed some of the most restrictive tariffs in American history. With other issues making their way through the country this resulted in, eventually, the depression at the end of his term that collapsed the economy.

Foreign Policy

Hawaii, Chile and Alaska were the main issues he dealt with. But he did start the first modern Pan American Conference to deal with issues in the hemisphere. He was very much a believer in American Empire and tried to extend American power any way possible passed its continental borders. But his results were mixed at best.

Executive Skills/Congress

He alienated his party almost immediately. His foreign policy only had lukewarm support. He continued civil service reforms and passed several economic bills but the results there are bad, not good.

Justice/Rights

A true republican he tirelessly tried to advocate for black voting rights. He supported several bills to give teeth to the 15th Amendment in the south but they all pretty much went nowhere. He supporter a Constitutional Amendment to re-enforce the Civil Rights Act that the Supreme Court found unconstitutional but that also went nowhere.

Misunderstanding a mostly religious revival for Indians in South Dakota he sent the 7th Calvary to stop what he saw as a forming revolution. The ensuing battle killed thousands. In response Harrison supported the Dawes Act and put in place systems to assimilate Indians into American culture. The Sioux fighting was the last Indian battle of the 19th century and his plans were probably honorable but all they resulted in was Indians losing lands to speculators making their ultimate fate worse.

Context

Harrison hurt himself immediately assuming office. Even so, he did have a shot to win re-election against Cleveland, but he suffered a significant tragedy at the end of his term with the dying of his wife. It broke Harrison. He barely campaigned at all, sitting by her bedside for hours on end. In the last three weeks of the election cycle, Cleveland instructed his party to back off all campaigning because Harrison couldn’t do it anymore and the city of Washington basically laid in morning for that time. Election day passed like any other somber day. It was an extremely honorable thing for Cleveland to do and he ultimately won. Harrison lost his re-election bid though by the time the votes were counted, it appears he didn’t really care.

Only after a few decades is Harrison’s time in office given any credit, mainly for his foreign policy and desire to expand American power and influence. Many call him the first President of the 20th century in that regard. But his civil rights attempts were the last true attempts to solve those problems for decades. Overall he had a roughly average presidency though.

Conclusion

On persuasion he gets a 5, on crisis he gets a 4, on economy he gets a 2, on foreign policy 5, congress, 4, civil rights 6 and context 6. 32 total points. Benjamin Harrison is mostly forgotten by history and people who discuss the office. He shouldn’t be. He was a good man who worked hard and was considered until the day he died one of the more honorable men to hold the office. His Presidency in many ways can be reviewed through the lens of our 41st President, George H.W. Bush. Good men who did the job well, but not great, and couldn’t secure for themselves a second term calling into question just how important and powerful their first term was.

 

[timschochet]

84. Andrew Carnegie

The way to become rich is to put all your eggs in one basket and then watch that basket.

One of the great American success stories, Andrew Carnegie immigrated from Scotland when he was 13. Penniless, he went to work in a factory, and then in a number of business in Pittsburgh connected to the railroad. He saved his money and invested in local ironmaking plants, and when the Civil War caused Pittsburgh ironmaking to suddenly explode, Carnegie found himself very wealthy. Using the Bessemer process for the mass production of steel, Carnegie took his industrial wealth and converted to steel making. The rest, as they say, is history- he became one of the richest men in America, and when years later he finally sold his company to JP Morgan for 480 million (in todays terms, 309 billion) that company became US Steel, America's largest business concern throughout most of the 20th Century.

Carnegie did not believe in squandering his great wealth. He was determined to use it to help others. Here is what he wrote on the matter:

I propose to take an income no greater than $50,000 per annum! Beyond this I need ever earn, make no effort to increase my fortune, but spend the surplus each year for benevolent purposes! Let us cast aside business forever, except for others. Let us settle in Oxford and I shall get a thorough education, making the acquaintance of literary men. I figure that this will take three years active work. I shall pay especial attention to speaking in public. We can settle in London and I can purchase a controlling interest in some newspaper or live review and give the general management of it attention, taking part in public matters, especially those connected with education and improvement of the poorer classes. Man must have no idol and the amassing of wealth is one of the worst species of idolatry! No idol is more debasing than the worship of money! Whatever I engage in I must push inordinately; therefore should I be careful to choose that life which will be the most elevating in its character. To continue much longer overwhelmed by business cares and with most of my thoughts wholly upon the way to make more money in the shortest time, must degrade me beyond hope of permanent recovery. I will resign business at thirty-five, but during these ensuing two years I wish to spend the afternoons in receiving instruction and in reading systematically!

He meant it. Carnegie became perhaps the greatest philanthropist in American history, eventually during his lifetime donating about 90% of his wealth to charity. Carnegie Hall, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Carnegie Institute for Science, and many more, all his creations. Carnegie therefore represents the greatest example of the traditional conservative version of the American dream: the self-made man who saw opportunities when others didn't, maximized them, and then made a personal fortune. Then he gave back to the country he helped built, but voluntarily, without government coercion. This is exactly the sort of hero that capitalism produces, a sort of real life Ayn Rand character.

Critics, however, point out that Carnegie's great steel company treated it's workers miserably, used child labor, refused to cooperate with unions in any way (in fact, may have been involved in murdering union leaders) and was generally no different from the other 19th century tycoons who abused and mistreated labor. Howard Zinn in A People's History of The United States is especially critical of Carnegie, perhaps because he is held up as such a capitalist hero.

Next up: Our greatest overall athlete?

 

[rockaction]

Jim Thorpe?

 

[Tom Hagen]

Jim Thorpe?

On Tim's list? It's probably Kobe.

 

[timschochet]

Jim Thorpe?

Maybe. Or maybe now I'll have to change it just because you decided to name him.

 

[rockaction]

Jim Thorpe?

On Tim's list? It's probably Kobe.

I would say Muhammad Ali, but I'm hoping.

 

[timschochet]

Jim Thorpe?

On Tim's list? It's probably Kobe.

83 is too low for Kobe.

 

[rockaction]

Jim Thorpe?

Maybe. Or maybe now I'll have to change it just because you decided to name him.

Dang, if I messed it up, I apologize.

 

[Bogeys]

Jim Thorpe?

Maybe. Or maybe now I'll have to change it just because you decided to name him.

Dang, if I messed it up, I apologize.

I am guessing Jenner on a Tim list.

 

[timschochet]

Kobe will either be my #24 or #8 ranking- I haven't decided yet. Or maybe I'll rank him in both spots. If anyone deserves to be on this list twice, it's Kobe!

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Jim Thorpe?

On Tim's list? It's probably Kobe.

Jesse Owens. Black man who stuck in Hitler's craw.

 

[timschochet]

Jim Thorpe?

On Tim's list? It's probably Kobe.

Jesse Owens. Black man who stuck in Hitler's craw.

Being serious now: Jesse was another of those who I strongly considered for this list, along with Joe Louis and Jack Johnson- these were 3 of the 5 most important African-American athletes who were not only among the best ever at what they did but were also responsible for great sociological changes in this country.

In the end, there was only room for 2 of the 5, and the ones I have mentioned here did not make the cut. We'll get to the 2 that did in good time.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

So Billy Jean King got in over Jesse Owens?

You're fun. Insane. But fun.

 

[Sweet J]

87. John Marshall

When a law is in its nature a contract, when absolute rights have vested under that contract, a repeal of the law cannot divest those rights.

In some ways, John Marshall was a contradiction: a Virginian born slaveowner, he was America's leading Federalist during his lifetime. Marshall rejected the Jeffersonian idea that the states' rights were paramount, instead pushing for the supremacy of federal law over state law.

John Marshall was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court for 34 years, from 1801 to 1835, during the formative years of this country. He was instrumental in the development of the Court as a branch of government co-equal to the executive and Congress. And he was vital to the establishment of the rule of law. Any one of those achievements would make him worthy to be placed on this list. That he was so important to everything I have mentioned makes his placement inevitable.

Besides some of the most important decisions in SC history (including Marbury vs. Madison), Marshall also was the judge for the Aaron Burr trial. Against the wishes of Thomas Jefferson, Marshall narrowly limited the definition of the word "treason" and therefore instructed the jury to acquit Burr. This didn't make Jefferson very happy. He was not the last President to be angered by the Chief Justice; years later Andrew Jackson was outraged when Marshall seemed to favor the rights of native Americans against the government's policies.

Jefferson also opposed Marbury, complaining that allowing the Constitution to mean whatever the Court says it means would make the Constitution "a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please." Modern day conservatives would likely agree with this sentiment, (thanks mostly to another Chief Justice who will appear later on this list.) But it was Marshall who first enumerated the principle of judicial review.

Next up: He had the ability to do anything he wanted, except secure his own happiness...

John Marshal's supreme court decisions regarding Indian Law are legendary, and form the basis for all Indian Law textbooks in this country. They are amazing to read.

My favorite quote attributed to a president comes courtesy of Andrew Jackson after he was displeased with a decision favoring the Cherokee Nation (I believe) over the state of Georgia: "John Marshal has made his decision; now let's see him enforce it."

 

[timschochet]

87. John Marshall

When a law is in its nature a contract, when absolute rights have vested under that contract, a repeal of the law cannot divest those rights.

In some ways, John Marshall was a contradiction: a Virginian born slaveowner, he was America's leading Federalist during his lifetime. Marshall rejected the Jeffersonian idea that the states' rights were paramount, instead pushing for the supremacy of federal law over state law.

John Marshall was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court for 34 years, from 1801 to 1835, during the formative years of this country. He was instrumental in the development of the Court as a branch of government co-equal to the executive and Congress. And he was vital to the establishment of the rule of law. Any one of those achievements would make him worthy to be placed on this list. That he was so important to everything I have mentioned makes his placement inevitable.

Besides some of the most important decisions in SC history (including Marbury vs. Madison), Marshall also was the judge for the Aaron Burr trial. Against the wishes of Thomas Jefferson, Marshall narrowly limited the definition of the word "treason" and therefore instructed the jury to acquit Burr. This didn't make Jefferson very happy. He was not the last President to be angered by the Chief Justice; years later Andrew Jackson was outraged when Marshall seemed to favor the rights of native Americans against the government's policies.

Jefferson also opposed Marbury, complaining that allowing the Constitution to mean whatever the Court says it means would make the Constitution "a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please." Modern day conservatives would likely agree with this sentiment, (thanks mostly to another Chief Justice who will appear later on this list.) But it was Marshall who first enumerated the principle of judicial review.

Next up: He had the ability to do anything he wanted, except secure his own happiness...

John Marshal's supreme court decisions regarding Indian Law are legendary, and form the basis for all Indian Law textbooks in this country. They are amazing to read.

My favorite quote attributed to a president comes courtesy of Andrew Jackson after he was displeased with a decision favoring the Cherokee Nation (I believe) over the state of Georgia: "John Marshal has made his decision; now let's see him enforce it."

I attempted to use that quote to disparage Andrew Jackson (whom I believe was an awful President and an evil man) but as it turns out, he didn't say it.

 

[timschochet]

So Billy Jean King got in over Jesse Owens?

You're fun. Insane. But fun.

King had a huge impact on the role of women in American society. That's why she made the list over Jesse.

 

[TheAristocrat]

I'll keep reading but not having Owens in the top 100 is ridiculous, Tim. But, I am entertained so there is that.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Well then I am guessing Tim is going Jackie Robinson. If he does it ought to be a dual posting along with Pee Wee Reese.

BTW, I suspect Tim is too young to really remember or appreciate the impact of Billy Jean King. Yes some tried to make it some sort of referendum on women in general, but having lived through it we all understood it was a sideshow, a hype train of no real import. Times were changing regardless of what some self-promoting loudmouth named Bobby Riggs wanted to sell. It was one of those large non-events.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

85. Clarence Darrow

I have suffered from being misunderstood, but I would have suffered a hell of a lot more if I had been understood.

Unfortunately, Clarence Darrow is mostly forgotten. The only image Americans have left of him (and then, only some over a certain age) is of the actor Spencer Tracy in the film Inherit the Wind, and that's only a fictional portrayal: the character is named Henry Drummond, though Darrow did do and say most of things as described in that film, which is of course about the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1924, arguably Darrow's most famous case. (Incidentally, that film is probably our only depiction of H.L. Mencken, oddly played by Gene Kelly. The journalist Mencken is someone who I really wanted to have in this top 100 list and just failed to make the cut.) Darrow has also been portrayed in film by such actors as Orson Welles and Kevin Spacey, but not as famously.

But during his heyday, Darrow was our greatest trial lawyer, and is widely regarded as perhaps the greatest in history. This is not only a result of his famous cases: besides Scopes, he defended Leopold and Loeb, Eugene Debs, Big Bill Haywood, Grace Fortescue (the famous Massie trial in Hawaii) and scores of others. It's also because he was a famous liberal, a great civil libertarian (he was connected to the ACLU for most of his career) with a great wit and sense of humor. His speeches before the court were spellbinding and moving, his cross-examinations devastating and legendary. He was opposed to the death penalty and, during the Leopold and Loeb trial, made this passionate argument, which still may be the best one against capital punishment ever:

The easy thing and the popular thing to do is to hang my clients. I know it. Men and women who do not think will applaud. The cruel and the thoughtless will approve. It will be easy today; but in Chicago, and reaching out over the length and breadth of the land, more and more fathers and mothers, the humane, the kind, and the hopeful, who are gaining an understanding and asking questions not only about these poor boys but about their own, these will join in no acclaim at the death of my clients. But, Your Honor, what they shall ask may not count. I know the easy way. I know Your Honor stands between the future and the past. I know the future is with me, and what I stand for here; not merely for the lives of these two unfortunate lads, but for all boys and all girls; for all of the young, and as far as possible, for all of the old. I am pleading for life, understanding, charity, kindness, and the infinite mercy that considers all. I am pleading that we overcome cruelty with kindness and hatred with love. I know the future is on my side. Your Honor stands between the past and the future. You may hang these boys; you may hang them, by the neck until they are dead. But in doing it you will turn your face toward the past. In doing it you are making it harder for every other boy who in ignorance and darkness must grope his way through the mazes which only childhood knows. In doing it you will make it harder for unborn children. You may save them and make it easier for every child that some time may stand where these boys stand. You will make it easier for every human being with an aspiration and a vision and a hope and a fate. I am pleading for the future; I am pleading for a time when hatred and cruelty will not control the hearts of men. When we can learn by, reason and judgment and understanding and faith that all life is worth saving, and that mercy is the highest attribute of man.

Darrow was one of the first men targeted by conservative critics as a "bleeding heart liberal".

Up next: He almost single-handedly created the steel industry in the United States.

Just to be clear, for those unfamiliar with the Leopold and Loeb trial, two wealthy brats, bored, decided to commit the perfect murder to see whether they were smart enough to pull it off. They murdered an adolescent. They got caught. Darrow pleaded them guilty and the trial consisted of a month long sentencing hearing. IIRC

 

[timschochet]

Well DW you've obviously never taken a Feminist Studies class.

I haven't either- wouldn't be caught dead- but I did have a friend whose mom was a militant feminist and taught this class at Long Beach State, and she told me BJK was a major figure in woman's studies. So there!

 

[jon_mx]

I am on pins and needles waiting to see where in the top 10 Michael Sam is. I am just sad there is no FFA cake-smashing emoticon.

 

[timschochet]

I am on pins and needles waiting to see where in the top 10 Michael Sam is. I am just sad there is no FFA cake-smashing emoticon.

I moved him to my Canadian list.

 

[jon_mx]

I am on pins and needles waiting to see where in the top 10 Michael Sam is. I am just sad there is no FFA cake-smashing emoticon.

I moved him to my Canadian list.

Is he ahead or behind Bieber?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I am on pins and needles waiting to see where in the top 10 Michael Sam is. I am just sad there is no FFA cake-smashing emoticon.

I moved him to my Canadian list.

Is he ahead or behind Bieber?

I'm guessing extremely close behind.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

So Billy Jean King got in over Jesse Owens?

You're fun. Insane. But fun.

King had a huge impact on the role of women in American society. That's why she made the list over Jesse.

I know you think that was a rebuttal but it really wasn't.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Well DW you've obviously never taken a Feminist Studies class.

I haven't either- wouldn't be caught dead- but I did have a friend whose mom was a militant feminist and taught this class at Long Beach State, and she told me BJK was a major figure in woman's studies. So there!

That just might be the saddest sentence ever posted on this message board, and we've had some doozies.

 

[timschochet]

I am on pins and needles waiting to see where in the top 10 Michael Sam is. I am just sad there is no FFA cake-smashing emoticon.

I moved him to my Canadian list.

Is he ahead or behind Bieber?

I'm guessing extremely close behind.

Dammit!

I was just about to post that. This is my thread and I would appreciate if people around here would stop trying to steal my jokes.

 

[timschochet]

I did consider one person on this list who would also have to be considered for a top Canadian 100 list- he failed to make the cut in both, but again just barely. Anyone want to take a guess?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Not such a fan of Ben Harrison here.