dparker713
Footballguy
So far, 3 scientists/inventors, 2 religious leaders, 2 generals, 3 business leaders, 10 entertainers/artists. Only 2 senators, 1 congressman, and no presidents. Only 1 Founding Father.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
Well, I tend to think pretty highly of Founding Fathers. So they're not going to be in the lowest 25 of the list. I think less highly of entertainers, so it should be no surprise that they dominate the list so far. They're going to thin out as we move upward.
timschochet
Footballguy
Random Thoughts
1. Yankee23fan is doing a masterful job on his analysis of the Presidents. I don't agree with every point he's making, and I thought his analysis of Woodrow Wilson was terribly flawed, but his writing is superb, as good as one would read in any book. It's puts my own crude narrative to shame.
2. In the Michael Sam thread, Walking Boot brought up once again my supposed "defense" of Roman Polanski, and tried to suggest that it means that I justify child abuse, child rape, etc. Cliff then added to that my fandom of Kobe Bryant and Ben Roethlisberger as evidence that I favor rapists in general. Really, these attacks get a little old. I made the mistake of trying to explain my reasoning about Polanski- there's no point, because those that wanted to understood me and those simply interested in putting me down never will.
3. Also, in the Trump thread, I was compared to Eminence by The Commish. The Commish is truly a strange guy IMO. He often accuses me of not making sense, but half the time I have no idea what he is talking about. Still he seems a decent sort, even if he doesn't like me for whatever reason. It's pretty insulting comparing me to Eminence though. Em is a racist, ignorant, ridiculous clown who mainly posts about himself and his personal exploits, and only enters into political and cultural discussions when there's something especially stupid to be promoted (like his love for Donald Trump.) I'd like to think that I have none of those traits, or anything similar.
4. Nate Silver wrote an article this morning explaining why Hillary Clinton is not in nearly as much trouble with the electorate as is being suggested here. For my money, when it comes to predicting political outcomes, this guy is the best in the business.
5. Finished The Rosie Project last night and started Being Nixon. Already engrossed. Nixon in high school and college was always losing out in popularity to the handsome guy- Thomas suggests this played a part in his resentment of Ivy League types later in his career (especially John F. Kennedy.) Nixon even as a kid was a loner, a brooder. Fun factoid- Even Thomas, the writer (known for Newsweek) is the grandson of socialist Norman Thomas, who I described in the Sanders thread.
6. In my FF league here, the draft just started and 4 out of the first 5 picks were wide receivers. It's a PPR league but that still seems like a lot. One of the drafters, Larry Allen's Jockstrap, pointed out that there's less steady elite RBs than ever before. Perhaps this is true. But if so, it seems to me that fantasy football, which was always 30% skill and 70% luck, is going to be 90% luck. Wide receivers are simply not consistent enough for it to be anything else.
1. Yankee23fan is doing a masterful job on his analysis of the Presidents. I don't agree with every point he's making, and I thought his analysis of Woodrow Wilson was terribly flawed, but his writing is superb, as good as one would read in any book. It's puts my own crude narrative to shame.
2. In the Michael Sam thread, Walking Boot brought up once again my supposed "defense" of Roman Polanski, and tried to suggest that it means that I justify child abuse, child rape, etc. Cliff then added to that my fandom of Kobe Bryant and Ben Roethlisberger as evidence that I favor rapists in general. Really, these attacks get a little old. I made the mistake of trying to explain my reasoning about Polanski- there's no point, because those that wanted to understood me and those simply interested in putting me down never will.
3. Also, in the Trump thread, I was compared to Eminence by The Commish. The Commish is truly a strange guy IMO. He often accuses me of not making sense, but half the time I have no idea what he is talking about. Still he seems a decent sort, even if he doesn't like me for whatever reason. It's pretty insulting comparing me to Eminence though. Em is a racist, ignorant, ridiculous clown who mainly posts about himself and his personal exploits, and only enters into political and cultural discussions when there's something especially stupid to be promoted (like his love for Donald Trump.) I'd like to think that I have none of those traits, or anything similar.
4. Nate Silver wrote an article this morning explaining why Hillary Clinton is not in nearly as much trouble with the electorate as is being suggested here. For my money, when it comes to predicting political outcomes, this guy is the best in the business.
5. Finished The Rosie Project last night and started Being Nixon. Already engrossed. Nixon in high school and college was always losing out in popularity to the handsome guy- Thomas suggests this played a part in his resentment of Ivy League types later in his career (especially John F. Kennedy.) Nixon even as a kid was a loner, a brooder. Fun factoid- Even Thomas, the writer (known for Newsweek) is the grandson of socialist Norman Thomas, who I described in the Sanders thread.
6. In my FF league here, the draft just started and 4 out of the first 5 picks were wide receivers. It's a PPR league but that still seems like a lot. One of the drafters, Larry Allen's Jockstrap, pointed out that there's less steady elite RBs than ever before. Perhaps this is true. But if so, it seems to me that fantasy football, which was always 30% skill and 70% luck, is going to be 90% luck. Wide receivers are simply not consistent enough for it to be anything else.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Even thinking highly of the Founding Fathers, there are some 2nd/3rd tier founding fathers that are good value here (maybe John Jay is the Chief Justice above Marshall). Kind of interested to see if those types made the cut and are a bit higher, or missed it.
Last edited by a moderator:
whoknew
Footballguy
Have you seen the PBS American Experience - The Presidents? I've been watching these a lot lately on Amazon. They are pretty old - from like 94. Interesting, though.
timschochet
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
I've watched FDR, Truman, and now am working through LBJ. They focus a lot on the Presidents before they become President (growing up, etc) and how that shaped their individual presidencies. For example, I think about 1.5 of the 4 Truman hours were pre-President. Pretty interesting.
Sweet J
Footballguy
Knowing Tim, I'd say either Burger or Warren. For my money, I'd say Tim would pick Warren. I'd certainly put him above Burger.
timschochet
Footballguy
74. Earl Warren
It is the spirit, and not the form of law that keeps justice alive.
Although Earl Warren was a very important politician in California (where, among other things, he played a key role in the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II,) he is included in this list for his term as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, during the years 1953-1969, which in terms of the Court's history were the most pivotal years of its existence, because of the changes that it made to American society.
Although Earl Warren had been a Republican (and appointed by a Republican President), he was a liberal, and the Warren Court's major decisions was based upon the liberal belief that the Constitution is a "living document" and thus subject to re-interpretation based on the standards of the current era: also that within the Bill of Rights there were hidden rights presumed but not directly enumerated. Judicial conservatives took serious issue with both of these contentions and continue to do so.
Among the Warren Court's most significant decisions were Brown vs. Board of Education (1954), Gideon vs. Wainright (1963), and Miranda vs. Arizona (1966). Roe vs. Wade (1973) was not a decision of the Warren Court (he retired before that) but it probably would not have been possible without the tilt of the Court in a more liberal direction. Warren's decisions involving segregation, separation of church and state, and limiting police power were very unpopular among conservatives, especially in the South, and a serious movement was started to impeach him. Jerry Fallwell of Moral Majority fame first rose to public attention through his failed effort to remove Warren from office.
I was asked earlier to justify this ranking, even before I made it, given that I have John Marshall ranked below Warren (and some of our most brilliant justices, such as Brandeis and Oliver Wendell Holmes, didn't make the list at all.) My answer will probably not be satisfactory for lawyer types (of which I am not one.) If I were ranking justices of the Supreme Court, there is no doubt in my mind that Marshall would be #1, and Warren would be somewhere further down the list, behind Holmes, Frankfurter, perhaps even a few others.
But this is NOT a ranking of the greatness of justices, but instead of the greatness of Americans. John Marshall is a more important figure to the history of the Supreme Court and the shaping of it's role in our government, but Earl Warren is a more important figure in terms of his direct effect on American society. The decisions under his court had a significant impact in shaping 21st century America, more than any other SC Justice, and that's why he's higher on this list.
Up next: The father of modern American shipbuilding...
It is the spirit, and not the form of law that keeps justice alive.
Although Earl Warren was a very important politician in California (where, among other things, he played a key role in the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II,) he is included in this list for his term as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, during the years 1953-1969, which in terms of the Court's history were the most pivotal years of its existence, because of the changes that it made to American society.
Although Earl Warren had been a Republican (and appointed by a Republican President), he was a liberal, and the Warren Court's major decisions was based upon the liberal belief that the Constitution is a "living document" and thus subject to re-interpretation based on the standards of the current era: also that within the Bill of Rights there were hidden rights presumed but not directly enumerated. Judicial conservatives took serious issue with both of these contentions and continue to do so.
Among the Warren Court's most significant decisions were Brown vs. Board of Education (1954), Gideon vs. Wainright (1963), and Miranda vs. Arizona (1966). Roe vs. Wade (1973) was not a decision of the Warren Court (he retired before that) but it probably would not have been possible without the tilt of the Court in a more liberal direction. Warren's decisions involving segregation, separation of church and state, and limiting police power were very unpopular among conservatives, especially in the South, and a serious movement was started to impeach him. Jerry Fallwell of Moral Majority fame first rose to public attention through his failed effort to remove Warren from office.
I was asked earlier to justify this ranking, even before I made it, given that I have John Marshall ranked below Warren (and some of our most brilliant justices, such as Brandeis and Oliver Wendell Holmes, didn't make the list at all.) My answer will probably not be satisfactory for lawyer types (of which I am not one.) If I were ranking justices of the Supreme Court, there is no doubt in my mind that Marshall would be #1, and Warren would be somewhere further down the list, behind Holmes, Frankfurter, perhaps even a few others.
But this is NOT a ranking of the greatness of justices, but instead of the greatness of Americans. John Marshall is a more important figure to the history of the Supreme Court and the shaping of it's role in our government, but Earl Warren is a more important figure in terms of his direct effect on American society. The decisions under his court had a significant impact in shaping 21st century America, more than any other SC Justice, and that's why he's higher on this list.
Up next: The father of modern American shipbuilding...
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Oof
Don Quixote
Footballguy
You were right. Poor, always under-appreciated John Jay. I guess he's not on the list.
timschochet
Footballguy
I can't quite get my head around the fact that major American politicians are discussing the idea of removing birthright citizenship as a serious issue. What are we coming to?
How many other first-world countries have the same policy?
Sure, it's been that way "forever", but it is a pretty stupid policy when you think about it.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
Stupid? It's one of the great things that separates us. I am a firm believer in American exceptionalism. This is a fundamental aspect of it.
Righetti
Footballguy
Righetti
Footballguy
I have to say that Yankee's ranking of the presidents is fascinating read, the added little nuggets are fantastic additions
To requests, although maybe a little late, in their introduction could you add their vice presidents and maybe discuss their relationships a bit. The recent presidents have been in lockstep with their VP's but I know that Bush Sr. and Reagan were not eye to eye on many things. Won't affect the general tankings but might add some additional perspective.
Also any chance you could also give some perspective on their electoral votes/popular vote in the general election.
To requests, although maybe a little late, in their introduction could you add their vice presidents and maybe discuss their relationships a bit. The recent presidents have been in lockstep with their VP's but I know that Bush Sr. and Reagan were not eye to eye on many things. Won't affect the general tankings but might add some additional perspective.
Also any chance you could also give some perspective on their electoral votes/popular vote in the general election.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Jeesh... like this hasn't been enough work.
timschochet
Footballguy
73. Henry Kaiser
When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt.
Henry Kaiser is most likely an unknown name to most living Americans, and the ones that do know him associate him most with the medical association he formed late in life, Kaiser Permanente. But Henry Kaiser is one of the most important men on this list, because he changed our society in many ways. Kaiser was a builder and construction company owner, well known in the 1930s, who helped build the Hoover Dam and and the Bonneville and Grand Coulee Dams. But it was only during World War II that Kaiser proved his brilliance.
He had purchased several broke and rotting shipyards on the west coast in the late 30s when they could be had for pennies. There was little money to be had in merchant shipping, but starting in 1940 the US Navy, anticipating war, was given orders to double and then triple their warships. Kaiser was in a prime position to make this happen. His specialty were the Liberty Ships, (cargo) and the number produced during the war remains an extraordinary feat even today: 2,710 Liberty ships were built in 18 shipyards, mostly owned and operated by Kaiser. These ships were instrumental, not only to supplying American troops on all the different fronts of war, but also in supplying British and Russian troops through Lend-Lease.
Kaiser's transformation from riveting to welding was considered revolutionary. It required less physical strength, and this change allowed women to work in the shipyards, creating, ironically, "Rosie the Riveter" (ironic because they mostly welded rather than riveted.) Sociologists consider this to be an essential key to the role of women in American society. Kaiser's shipyards also attracted a move of African-Americans westward, creating new communities around Los Angeles and Oakland.
The output of American industry during World War II was the decisive reason that we won that war. In the end, Germany and Japan simply could not deal with our vast numbers of machines. Extraordinary men like Henry Kaiser made this possible. He was an industrial genius, in the right place at the right time.
Next up: Known as the "Charles Dickens" of the late 20th century...
When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt.
Henry Kaiser is most likely an unknown name to most living Americans, and the ones that do know him associate him most with the medical association he formed late in life, Kaiser Permanente. But Henry Kaiser is one of the most important men on this list, because he changed our society in many ways. Kaiser was a builder and construction company owner, well known in the 1930s, who helped build the Hoover Dam and and the Bonneville and Grand Coulee Dams. But it was only during World War II that Kaiser proved his brilliance.
He had purchased several broke and rotting shipyards on the west coast in the late 30s when they could be had for pennies. There was little money to be had in merchant shipping, but starting in 1940 the US Navy, anticipating war, was given orders to double and then triple their warships. Kaiser was in a prime position to make this happen. His specialty were the Liberty Ships, (cargo) and the number produced during the war remains an extraordinary feat even today: 2,710 Liberty ships were built in 18 shipyards, mostly owned and operated by Kaiser. These ships were instrumental, not only to supplying American troops on all the different fronts of war, but also in supplying British and Russian troops through Lend-Lease.
Kaiser's transformation from riveting to welding was considered revolutionary. It required less physical strength, and this change allowed women to work in the shipyards, creating, ironically, "Rosie the Riveter" (ironic because they mostly welded rather than riveted.) Sociologists consider this to be an essential key to the role of women in American society. Kaiser's shipyards also attracted a move of African-Americans westward, creating new communities around Los Angeles and Oakland.
The output of American industry during World War II was the decisive reason that we won that war. In the end, Germany and Japan simply could not deal with our vast numbers of machines. Extraordinary men like Henry Kaiser made this possible. He was an industrial genius, in the right place at the right time.
Next up: Known as the "Charles Dickens" of the late 20th century...
whoknew
Footballguy
This is a hard argument to make. Without Marshall, Warren's Court doesn't have the opportunity to make these decisions. There was no Court (for all intents and purposes) without Marshall. For this reason, I don't think you can make any Chief Justice ranked higher than Marshall.timschochet said:
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
That's like saying that without Sammy Baugh, Joe Montana as we know him never exists, because guys like Baugh created the position of quarterback. They did, and they deserve credit for it, but not as much credit IMO as Montana for maximizing the position.
timschochet
Footballguy
Or- later on I'm going to select a basketball coach. According to your argument, I should select James Naismith, because without him, the game of basketball would be impossible. And that's true, but irrelevant to the selection I am going to be making.
dparker713
Footballguy
Warren wasn't even that essential to the cases you're citing. Brown was unanimous. And there were 6 solid liberals on the Court once Thurgood Marshall was appointed. Plus, his writing was fairly spotty.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
For starters...
1. In practically every other policy, local, state, or federal, we put a colossal emphasis on not separating children from their parents (literally or figuratively). This policy completely abandons that idea.
2. The policy encourages illegal behavior.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Harry Truman (1945-1952)
Public Acumen/Persuasion
He wasn’t Franklin Roosevelt. At first. In the first midterms since Roosevelt’s death Harry’s approval rating was in the low 30’s and the Republicans took the Congress. When he began running for re-election few gave him a chance, in his own party and elsewhere. But the Democrats split and the Dixicrats signaled a new election strategy. No longer beholden to the racist wing of the Democratic Party Truman launched into tirades that supported the liberal policies of the day to shore up the rest of the party. Still the national media never gave him a shot and as we all know they printed newspapers of his defeat before the final votes were in.
What ultimately helped him and renewed his chances were his whistle blowing stops by train throughout the country speaking directly to the people. The progressive and liberal agenda he was going to push was well received by people that the media of the day didn’t poll and couldn’t connect with. The turnaround eventually resulted in Truman going to bed on election night several million votes down and ready for defeat only be to woken up in the early morning and told he won.
Truman fought for a huge amount of changes to policy in his time in office and with a Republican congress got almost nowhere with most of it. When he left office he had the lowest approval rating in awhile, and it was lower than Nixon’s when he left. Still, his wide-reaching policies, speeches and ideals kept moving after he was out of office and by the 70’s public opinion started to turn as the results of Korea and Vietnam were being felt. Truman became almost a folk hero in political culture, a down to earth firebrand who fought tirelessly for what he believed. In recent times his ranking in presidents is even higher. Most lists have him among the best presidents. So he becomes an interesting guy to score here particularly. He connected with people when he talked to them, but couldn’t get Congress to work with him. He fought communism and probably help to stop the possibility of World War III. He will get a solid score here, but not a top score.
War & Crisis
Following FDR was going to be immensely hard. WWII was winding down but not done. Finding out about things he wasn’t privy to as Vice President, Truman was given the keys to world destruction with the atomic bomb. With Germany’s surrender only Japan stood in the way of ending the war. The plan to invade Japan would have cost tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousand American lives even in victory. Truman unleashed hell on earth to end the war in Hiroshima.
But the strange thing about Truman’s presidency is that WWII isn’t nearly the hardest thing he dealt with. Peace after and rising conflicts with Russia were going to be his problem. Russia immediately set up a puppet government in Poland against agreements made with Truman. His success at the Postdam Conference was short lived. Russia continued exerting influence over Eastern Europe. When Russia tried to extend to Iran and Turkey, Truman pushed back leading Stalin to threaten a war with capitalism. And the Cold War began. Russia continued to exert influence in Eastern Europe and Truman continued to push back. When Russia took control of Czechoslovakia Truman got the Marshall Plan in place.
In response Russia blockaded Germany leading Truman to authorize the Berlin airdrop. At the conference to settle the Germany issue once and for all Truman failed to work out a deal with Stalin and Germany would be broken in half for decades. The result of these issues led to the formation of NATO. In response to that Russia doubled it efforts to build its own atomic bomb and Truman answered by pushing for a hydrogen bomb. Truman authorized the policy that created the “military industrial complex” and the total build up of weapons to overpower Russia if necessary.
Truman also suffered the loss of China to a communist revolution. And then of course the start of the Korean War. American forces quickly pushed North Vietnam back past the 38th parallel and Truman authorized the plan to continue the invasion into the North and topple the government. As feared this brought China into the war and American forces were pushed back. Korea was eventually and still is broken in half as a result of the failure to take the north, but Truman wasn’t going to push a war with China and then Russia over Korea. Korea did though show the communist countries that America would fight against their incursions. Truman finally got to fire General MacArthur over Korea – which was a smart move but resulted in MacArthur being declared a hero at home and Truman being attacked. Truman also supported France in Indochina which was the precursor to the problems in Vietnam 10 years later.
On the home front Truman had to deal with the country after the war and depression. A new economy was formed coming off the allied victory. The republican congress fought him every step of the way. A fomenting strike led Truman to seize the steel industry to avert a strike that could have stopped the economy. The companies took him to court and the Supreme Court found his actions unconstitutional. Then he had to deal with the rise of McCarthyism which did a decent job of killing any popularity he had left. And then corruption in his administration, though not his, just destroyed his standing.
Truman’s entire presidency was dealing with one crisis after another. He managed it very well even though he didn’t have the legislative success that you would see in that regard.
Economy
Truman immediately tried to tackle reducing expenditures on the military for economic reasons though the cold war would change that rather fast. There was growing labor problems now that the soldiers were back home. Truman vetoed two attempts to reduce the income tax one of which was passed over his veto. He advocated a national health insurance system that was not passed through Congress. Overall, Truman’s economic record is mixed at best, mainly because of his fighting with Congress. He tried to move the New Deal programs forward along liberal and progressive lines and he didn’t have the support to do it. His Fair Deal never really got off the ground and for the most part the economy moved in spite of Truman for the most part.
Foreign Policy
You can certainly argue that Truman’s efforts in Korea sent signals to the Soviet Union that war was possible over the growing spheres of power in the world and that with the new weapons of the day that war would be far too costly to wage. You can also argue that Korea was a mistake from start to finish and should have never gotten as far as it did. In the wake of WWII the Navy did not have the power to blockade Korea like Truman ordered and so he called on the United Nations to do it and he first acted without any Congressional authorization.
When China entered the conflict Truman backed down and Korea remains split to this day. Truman supported the creation of NATO which was one of the more powerful and important alliances formed in American history. Truman was also the President that formally recognized Israel as an autonomous nation. Given the times and the buildup of the Soviet Union, Truman gets decent marks for foreign policy. The debates over the Korean War will probably never end, even now after the fall of the Soviet Union. But Truman didn’t start WWIII, fought for allied concerns in Asia which rallied western civilization against communism, and attempted to work with the United Nations for peace as much as possible.
Executive Skills/Congress
Truman and Congress never got along. His cabinet at one point told him he should resign because his approval numbers were so low. He proposed sweeping legislation that Congress ignored and he never got very far in any of his plans or visions. Yet he managed to paint a lot of that as a failure of Congress and not his own problem. It helped him get re-elected. But in as much as Truman tried to the lead the Congress they simply weren’t going to follow him for political reasons. But he fought tirelessly while in office. He may have been the hardest working President we had since Polk.
Justice/Rights
Truman advocated sweeping changes in civil rights laws in the country that the south wasn’t about to support. HE desegregated the military. He tried to fight the growing anti-communism movement in the nation but had little ability to stop it and the Congressional hearings that took place ranged from remarkable to comical. The country wasn’t ready for what Harry was selling though. IT would be 20 years later, but not after the war. At that point, there were too many men back from battle who wanted and needed to move on with their lives and civil rights wasn’t a high priority.
Context
Harry Truman may be one of our top tier presidents in terms of dignity and integrity. He was no stranger to politics and the backroom deal, and he was no stranger to the political machinations of using the media and the people to drive home a point. He simply had to try to do it with a Republican Congress and never a full majority support in the nation, having only won by a plurality in his re-election. He saw that re-election as a vindication but it wasn’t and when he tried to introduce a huge new legislative program it was met with derision.
But Harry also had to deal with Europe destroyed, the allies a mess and a growing regional power in Russia that would start the cold war. Through the use of military strength, harsh words, diplomatic discussions, international relations and pretty much every other weapon at his disposal, Truman lead the world for the most part during the years following the end of World War II and he managed to do it without tipping the world into another global military conflict that seemed certainly possible as Russia was gaining advances everywhere. He lost Berlin, he lost China, he lost Korea and he set the stage for future Presidents to lose Vietnam. But he also made those victories for the Soviet Union and communism extremely expensive in every way, and showed a determination of the American hemisphere to stand up to communism that would last for the next 40 years.
Conclusion
When Truman left office he was considered one of our worst Presidents. In the time since, he has been propelled to one of our greatest, to above average, to most of the time stuck right in that area where he wasn’t the greatest, but he was the next step down. And in the end, the movement in history’s eyes is justifiable. And as we look back on our world and how, coming off of the death of Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman helped to shape the world, you would be hard pressed to argue he wasn’t fine man and very good President. On persuasion he gets a 6, on crisis he gets a 9, on economy 5, on foreign policy 8, Congress 4, civil rights 6 and context 8. 46 total points. As of right now he just outside of the top 10. I’m sure he would give me hell.
Public Acumen/Persuasion
He wasn’t Franklin Roosevelt. At first. In the first midterms since Roosevelt’s death Harry’s approval rating was in the low 30’s and the Republicans took the Congress. When he began running for re-election few gave him a chance, in his own party and elsewhere. But the Democrats split and the Dixicrats signaled a new election strategy. No longer beholden to the racist wing of the Democratic Party Truman launched into tirades that supported the liberal policies of the day to shore up the rest of the party. Still the national media never gave him a shot and as we all know they printed newspapers of his defeat before the final votes were in.
What ultimately helped him and renewed his chances were his whistle blowing stops by train throughout the country speaking directly to the people. The progressive and liberal agenda he was going to push was well received by people that the media of the day didn’t poll and couldn’t connect with. The turnaround eventually resulted in Truman going to bed on election night several million votes down and ready for defeat only be to woken up in the early morning and told he won.
Truman fought for a huge amount of changes to policy in his time in office and with a Republican congress got almost nowhere with most of it. When he left office he had the lowest approval rating in awhile, and it was lower than Nixon’s when he left. Still, his wide-reaching policies, speeches and ideals kept moving after he was out of office and by the 70’s public opinion started to turn as the results of Korea and Vietnam were being felt. Truman became almost a folk hero in political culture, a down to earth firebrand who fought tirelessly for what he believed. In recent times his ranking in presidents is even higher. Most lists have him among the best presidents. So he becomes an interesting guy to score here particularly. He connected with people when he talked to them, but couldn’t get Congress to work with him. He fought communism and probably help to stop the possibility of World War III. He will get a solid score here, but not a top score.
War & Crisis
Following FDR was going to be immensely hard. WWII was winding down but not done. Finding out about things he wasn’t privy to as Vice President, Truman was given the keys to world destruction with the atomic bomb. With Germany’s surrender only Japan stood in the way of ending the war. The plan to invade Japan would have cost tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousand American lives even in victory. Truman unleashed hell on earth to end the war in Hiroshima.
But the strange thing about Truman’s presidency is that WWII isn’t nearly the hardest thing he dealt with. Peace after and rising conflicts with Russia were going to be his problem. Russia immediately set up a puppet government in Poland against agreements made with Truman. His success at the Postdam Conference was short lived. Russia continued exerting influence over Eastern Europe. When Russia tried to extend to Iran and Turkey, Truman pushed back leading Stalin to threaten a war with capitalism. And the Cold War began. Russia continued to exert influence in Eastern Europe and Truman continued to push back. When Russia took control of Czechoslovakia Truman got the Marshall Plan in place.
In response Russia blockaded Germany leading Truman to authorize the Berlin airdrop. At the conference to settle the Germany issue once and for all Truman failed to work out a deal with Stalin and Germany would be broken in half for decades. The result of these issues led to the formation of NATO. In response to that Russia doubled it efforts to build its own atomic bomb and Truman answered by pushing for a hydrogen bomb. Truman authorized the policy that created the “military industrial complex” and the total build up of weapons to overpower Russia if necessary.
Truman also suffered the loss of China to a communist revolution. And then of course the start of the Korean War. American forces quickly pushed North Vietnam back past the 38th parallel and Truman authorized the plan to continue the invasion into the North and topple the government. As feared this brought China into the war and American forces were pushed back. Korea was eventually and still is broken in half as a result of the failure to take the north, but Truman wasn’t going to push a war with China and then Russia over Korea. Korea did though show the communist countries that America would fight against their incursions. Truman finally got to fire General MacArthur over Korea – which was a smart move but resulted in MacArthur being declared a hero at home and Truman being attacked. Truman also supported France in Indochina which was the precursor to the problems in Vietnam 10 years later.
On the home front Truman had to deal with the country after the war and depression. A new economy was formed coming off the allied victory. The republican congress fought him every step of the way. A fomenting strike led Truman to seize the steel industry to avert a strike that could have stopped the economy. The companies took him to court and the Supreme Court found his actions unconstitutional. Then he had to deal with the rise of McCarthyism which did a decent job of killing any popularity he had left. And then corruption in his administration, though not his, just destroyed his standing.
Truman’s entire presidency was dealing with one crisis after another. He managed it very well even though he didn’t have the legislative success that you would see in that regard.
Economy
Truman immediately tried to tackle reducing expenditures on the military for economic reasons though the cold war would change that rather fast. There was growing labor problems now that the soldiers were back home. Truman vetoed two attempts to reduce the income tax one of which was passed over his veto. He advocated a national health insurance system that was not passed through Congress. Overall, Truman’s economic record is mixed at best, mainly because of his fighting with Congress. He tried to move the New Deal programs forward along liberal and progressive lines and he didn’t have the support to do it. His Fair Deal never really got off the ground and for the most part the economy moved in spite of Truman for the most part.
Foreign Policy
You can certainly argue that Truman’s efforts in Korea sent signals to the Soviet Union that war was possible over the growing spheres of power in the world and that with the new weapons of the day that war would be far too costly to wage. You can also argue that Korea was a mistake from start to finish and should have never gotten as far as it did. In the wake of WWII the Navy did not have the power to blockade Korea like Truman ordered and so he called on the United Nations to do it and he first acted without any Congressional authorization.
When China entered the conflict Truman backed down and Korea remains split to this day. Truman supported the creation of NATO which was one of the more powerful and important alliances formed in American history. Truman was also the President that formally recognized Israel as an autonomous nation. Given the times and the buildup of the Soviet Union, Truman gets decent marks for foreign policy. The debates over the Korean War will probably never end, even now after the fall of the Soviet Union. But Truman didn’t start WWIII, fought for allied concerns in Asia which rallied western civilization against communism, and attempted to work with the United Nations for peace as much as possible.
Executive Skills/Congress
Truman and Congress never got along. His cabinet at one point told him he should resign because his approval numbers were so low. He proposed sweeping legislation that Congress ignored and he never got very far in any of his plans or visions. Yet he managed to paint a lot of that as a failure of Congress and not his own problem. It helped him get re-elected. But in as much as Truman tried to the lead the Congress they simply weren’t going to follow him for political reasons. But he fought tirelessly while in office. He may have been the hardest working President we had since Polk.
Justice/Rights
Truman advocated sweeping changes in civil rights laws in the country that the south wasn’t about to support. HE desegregated the military. He tried to fight the growing anti-communism movement in the nation but had little ability to stop it and the Congressional hearings that took place ranged from remarkable to comical. The country wasn’t ready for what Harry was selling though. IT would be 20 years later, but not after the war. At that point, there were too many men back from battle who wanted and needed to move on with their lives and civil rights wasn’t a high priority.
Context
Harry Truman may be one of our top tier presidents in terms of dignity and integrity. He was no stranger to politics and the backroom deal, and he was no stranger to the political machinations of using the media and the people to drive home a point. He simply had to try to do it with a Republican Congress and never a full majority support in the nation, having only won by a plurality in his re-election. He saw that re-election as a vindication but it wasn’t and when he tried to introduce a huge new legislative program it was met with derision.
But Harry also had to deal with Europe destroyed, the allies a mess and a growing regional power in Russia that would start the cold war. Through the use of military strength, harsh words, diplomatic discussions, international relations and pretty much every other weapon at his disposal, Truman lead the world for the most part during the years following the end of World War II and he managed to do it without tipping the world into another global military conflict that seemed certainly possible as Russia was gaining advances everywhere. He lost Berlin, he lost China, he lost Korea and he set the stage for future Presidents to lose Vietnam. But he also made those victories for the Soviet Union and communism extremely expensive in every way, and showed a determination of the American hemisphere to stand up to communism that would last for the next 40 years.
Conclusion
When Truman left office he was considered one of our worst Presidents. In the time since, he has been propelled to one of our greatest, to above average, to most of the time stuck right in that area where he wasn’t the greatest, but he was the next step down. And in the end, the movement in history’s eyes is justifiable. And as we look back on our world and how, coming off of the death of Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman helped to shape the world, you would be hard pressed to argue he wasn’t fine man and very good President. On persuasion he gets a 6, on crisis he gets a 9, on economy 5, on foreign policy 8, Congress 4, civil rights 6 and context 8. 46 total points. As of right now he just outside of the top 10. I’m sure he would give me hell.
timschochet
Footballguy
He lost Berlin? No mention of the Airlift which saved Berlin? No mention of the Marshall Plan or the Truman Doctrine? Truman was our greatest foreign policy President ever. He won the Cold War.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Um........ did you read the whole thing?
timschochet
Footballguy
Twice now. No mention of Marshallplan. No mention of Berlin Airlift. His two greatest achievements. You wrote he lost Berlin which is just false. (He didn't lose China either but that's a different argument).
Bogeys
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
whoknew
Footballguy
I think your analogy is off. I also think you are underrating what Marshall did.
Marshall didn't invent the Court - the Constitution did. So in your analogy, the drafters of the Constitution would be Naismith. But Marshall realized the need for a final arbiter of laws. He realized the full extent of what the court could be and took it there - in the face of strong opposition from from some pretty damn heavy hitters. He was Wooden. Warren may be Coach K, sure. But Coach K didn't win 36 titles in a row (that may be a little high).
timschochet
Footballguy
OK my bad. You didn't emphasize them and it wasn't airdrop but airlift. And you wrote that he lost Berlin which is wrong. And no discussion of George Kennan or the Truman Doctrine.
This is the man that won the Cold War for us. He, not Ronald Reagan, deserves the ultimate praise for this. Truman was our greatest 20th century President, the best since Lincoln.
This is the man that won the Cold War for us. He, not Ronald Reagan, deserves the ultimate praise for this. Truman was our greatest 20th century President, the best since Lincoln.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I don't necessarily disagree with the theory. I'm trying to hit the highlights that tell the story to the raw score because from Truman on I will never finish these guys if I write everything in detail.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I would be interested in your account of Truman winning the cold war. When did it start in your estimation, cease, and what is the definition of winning? What did Truman do to win the Cold war?
BTW, I am absolutely no expert in the subject matter, nor even averagely conversant therein, but I always felt the Cold war was won by time and market efficiencies (Including barriers to market participation imposed by ideology and geopolitics).
BTW, I am absolutely no expert in the subject matter, nor even averagely conversant therein, but I always felt the Cold war was won by time and market efficiencies (Including barriers to market participation imposed by ideology and geopolitics).
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
A proper answer to your questions would take hundreds of pages if not more, but I will try to be succinct: 1. The Cold War started with the Soviet seizure of most of Eastern Europe after World War II. Stalin's intent was to seize all of Europe by turning Greece, Italy's, and France Communist and forcing the USA and England out of Berlin (which ultimately meant out of Germany.)
2. Truman won the Cold War by supporting the Greek government (the Truman Doctrine) alleviating European misery through the Marshall Plan, and allowing us to stay in Berlin due to the Airlift. When Russia surrendered the blockade thanks to the Airlift, the Cold War was effectively won for the United States. 40 years of stalemate would follow until the Soviet Union finally collapsed of its own accord, but never again would they threaten the world as they did in 1948. The Berlin Airlift was the Gettysburg of the Cold War.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
That's a bit much. I can just as easily argue that Korea and Vietnam showed the communist states that fighting with the military wasn't even going to grant them victory in totality and that the best they could hope for was stalemate and diplomatic games with minor wars through surrogates in a hope to weaken the west's resolve over time. And for as much as we try to rewrite history about what Reagan planned, what he really did was double down on Truman's initial take on the matter to simply build more military power than them to hasten the the Soviet Union's collapse on its own accord.
Recent history is clouded a little because of the diety level that Reagan gets from some and the blowback it creates from others and so people are looking for other hero's to focus their attention on. Reagan's economy would have been possible without Carter and Volker, the cold war was always going to result the way it did because of the Soviet Union itself and what Truman did in the 40's-50's. It's not all wrong, but it's not all right either. The Berlin Airlift wasn't Gettysburg though I enjoy the imagery. Don't know if I heard that before. I think you are giving Truman just a little too much credit - a little. I like the guy. And he did set us on a path to win the Cold War, there is no doubt about that.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
As for the basketball coach, I believe Tim is going Don Haskins. Other coaches have been more successful. Others have shaped the lives of young men, but few had national import. Tim is all about civil rights. he is about advancing equality. Haskins is the man here because arguably what he did broke down societal barriers.
timschochet
Footballguy
72. Stephen King
Monsters are real, and ghosts are real, too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win.
Stephen King was America's most prolific and dominant novelist during the second half of the 20th century, and arguably of all time. But in placing him on this list I go beyond the success of his novels, because he is also one of the greatest creators of culture in the American experience. Virtually everybody knows at least one of his stories or more, having read them or seen them in movies and television. Because King, like Poe and Lovecraft before him, chose to focus primarily on horror and the supernatural, he has created worlds of imagination that other writers don't involve themselves in. King is Walt Disney for adults.
I mentioned earlier that this list would be a combination of those most influential to American society, along with truly great Americans, and that as we moved forward up the list we would run into a combination of the two. But there are exceptions to these designations, and King might be one of them. He is neither incredibly influential (if anything, most of his work is derivative), nor can he be called truly great, in the way that Jim Thorpe was (arguably) our greatest athlete. King is certainly not our greatest novelist.
Yet I firmly believe that he belongs because he has contributed so much enjoyment to our society. I will now provide examples. Here is my list of the 20 best Stephen King novels:
1. The Stand (1989 version)
2. It
3. Firestarter
4. The Dead Zone
5. The Shining
6. Carrie
7. Cujo
8. Misery
9. The Drawing of the Three (The Dark Tower Vol. 2)
10. Christine
11. Gerald's Game
12. Pet Sematary
13. Thinner (as Richard Bachmann)
14. The Running Man (as Richard Bachmann)
15. Desperation
16. Rose Madder
17. The Tommyknockers
18. Under the Dome
19. The Long Walk (as Richard Bachmann)
20. 11/22/63
You can argue with this list, but if you do, you're wrong.
Up next: Kentucky's greatest statesman...
Monsters are real, and ghosts are real, too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win.
Stephen King was America's most prolific and dominant novelist during the second half of the 20th century, and arguably of all time. But in placing him on this list I go beyond the success of his novels, because he is also one of the greatest creators of culture in the American experience. Virtually everybody knows at least one of his stories or more, having read them or seen them in movies and television. Because King, like Poe and Lovecraft before him, chose to focus primarily on horror and the supernatural, he has created worlds of imagination that other writers don't involve themselves in. King is Walt Disney for adults.
I mentioned earlier that this list would be a combination of those most influential to American society, along with truly great Americans, and that as we moved forward up the list we would run into a combination of the two. But there are exceptions to these designations, and King might be one of them. He is neither incredibly influential (if anything, most of his work is derivative), nor can he be called truly great, in the way that Jim Thorpe was (arguably) our greatest athlete. King is certainly not our greatest novelist.
Yet I firmly believe that he belongs because he has contributed so much enjoyment to our society. I will now provide examples. Here is my list of the 20 best Stephen King novels:
1. The Stand (1989 version)
2. It
3. Firestarter
4. The Dead Zone
5. The Shining
6. Carrie
7. Cujo
8. Misery
9. The Drawing of the Three (The Dark Tower Vol. 2)
10. Christine
11. Gerald's Game
12. Pet Sematary
13. Thinner (as Richard Bachmann)
14. The Running Man (as Richard Bachmann)
15. Desperation
16. Rose Madder
17. The Tommyknockers
18. Under the Dome
19. The Long Walk (as Richard Bachmann)
20. 11/22/63
You can argue with this list, but if you do, you're wrong.
Up next: Kentucky's greatest statesman...
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I want to have a highly intellectual conversation with you on American history as through the eyes of the Office of President. But then you do something like that which makes your list so much more worse than it has already been. Explain to me how in the hell, with any degree of intellectual honesty, how men like Andrew Carnegie and John Marshall aren't more important to American history than Stephen King in any measure save "ability to write fiction books."
I'm trying really hard here. Really hard. I have no idea what you are doing.
I'm trying really hard here. Really hard. I have no idea what you are doing.
timschochet
Footballguy
I realize that I excluded novellas from that list. King has a number of novellas that are nearly as good as any of his novels. The best:
1.The Shawshank Redemption
2.The Langoliers
3.The Mist
4.The Body
5. The Library Policeman
1.The Shawshank Redemption
2.The Langoliers
3.The Mist
4.The Body
5. The Library Policeman
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
You also forgot to mention that King is an obsessive downright angry Boston Red Sox fan. There is no place in American history for such people.
timschochet
Footballguy
Stephen King's 10 best short stories:
1. Trucks
2. The Ledge
3. Quitter's Inc.
4. The Jaunt
5. The Reach
6. Survivor Type
7. Word Processor of the Gods
8. You Know They Got a Hell of a Band
9. Dolan's Cadillac
10. Popsy
1. Trucks
2. The Ledge
3. Quitter's Inc.
4. The Jaunt
5. The Reach
6. Survivor Type
7. Word Processor of the Gods
8. You Know They Got a Hell of a Band
9. Dolan's Cadillac
10. Popsy
timschochet
Footballguy
Yes, Andrew Carnegie and John Marshall are both more important to American history than Stephen King. Far more, in fact.
But there are intangibles. I've tried to explain it before, but I'm afraid no explanation is going to satisfy your apparent need for some sort of fixed calculation that everybody on my list needs to somehow fit into. Greatest Americans is a subjective idea. I take into account people important to American history, people influential to our culture, Americans who achieved mastery of their chosen fields (presuming the field in question is of major importance), leaders, statesmen, creators, inventors, and artists. Stephen King is an artist, who has created places of imagination that almost all of us are familiar with.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Stephen King's 10 best short stories:
Andrew Carnegie may be the most influential philanthropist in American history. The scale of his giving is almost without peer: adjusted for inflation, his donations exceed those of virtually everyone else in the nation’s history. The magnitude of his accomplishments is likewise historic: he built some 2,800 lending libraries around the globe, founded what became one of the world’s great research universities, endowed one of the nation’s most significant grantmakers, and established charitable organizations that are still active nearly a century after his death.
I figure maybe if I just use the wrong name it will click.
Andrew Carnegie may be the most influential philanthropist in American history. The scale of his giving is almost without peer: adjusted for inflation, his donations exceed those of virtually everyone else in the nation’s history. The magnitude of his accomplishments is likewise historic: he built some 2,800 lending libraries around the globe, founded what became one of the world’s great research universities, endowed one of the nation’s most significant grantmakers, and established charitable organizations that are still active nearly a century after his death.
I figure maybe if I just use the wrong name it will click.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I'm not asking you to be as methodical as me. It's what I do for a living. And you do you.
And I fully support your argument above that always claiming the first guy in line of something should be considered the best isn't fair to these kind of exercises, but I mean, good god. You ranked Stephen King on a list - that isn't a list of greatest fiction writers in American history - above John Marshall. And you did it over Andrew Carnegie - and not by one or two spots either. Frankly, Carnegie should be in your top 20 not bottom 20. But beyond that, yeah, everyone knows a scary clown, that you really shouldn't bring your pets back to life, that Molly Ringwald can destroy a really good book about Armegeddon and that really big dogs with rabies can be scary as hell. Kudos to King on those. Great stories. But Andrew Carnegie..........
How about this - you know who built the libraries in Maine that Stephen King grew up in and came to realize his skill to tell a story, who gave a young Stephen King the ability to have books to create the visions he shared with us 20 years later? Andrew fricken Carnegie. I mean c'mon man.
Similar threads
