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timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (1 Viewer)

Question - if the federal government fails to provide for the defense of any single state's border with a foreign nation, is that state allowed to provide for it's own defense?

 
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Question - if the federal government fails to provide for the defense of any single state's border with a foreign nation, is that state allowed to provide for it's own defense?
Has this actually ever happened? Or are you one of those who regard the crossing of our borders by undocumented people as an infringement on our defenses?

 
Question - if the federal government fails to provide for the defense of any single state's border with a foreign nation, is that state allowed to provide for it's own defense?
Has this actually ever happened? Or are you one of those who regard the crossing of our borders by undocumented people as an infringement on our defenses?
Sure take Arizona, is failing to secure the border a failure to provide for common defense?

 
Promote the General Welfare

This seems to be the most controversial part of the Preamble, since what the general welfare means, and how to promote it, is obviously open to much limitation. But I'm going to rely on the wisdom that Yankee23fan has been teaching me, and assume that such a question is actually irrelevant- we don't need to be concerned here with how the government chooses to promote the general welfare, but only, in terms of the Preamble, with how the Constitution promotes the general welfare.

 
Question - if the federal government fails to provide for the defense of any single state's border with a foreign nation, is that state allowed to provide for it's own defense?
Has this actually ever happened? Or are you one of those who regard the crossing of our borders by undocumented people as an infringement on our defenses?
Sure take Arizona, is failing to secure the border a failure to provide for common defense?
Immigration is a different mechanism than foreign invasion. The current debate on the subject though is certainly blurring the lines for some.

 
Question - if the federal government fails to provide for the defense of any single state's border with a foreign nation, is that state allowed to provide for it's own defense?
Has this actually ever happened? Or are you one of those who regard the crossing of our borders by undocumented people as an infringement on our defenses?
Sure take Arizona, is failing to secure the border a failure to provide for common defense?
I would argue no, but there is no army invading Arizona and threatening it's sovereignty. Despite the rhetoric of nativists, illegal aliens do not threaten the sovereignty of the United States. Now if some military force invaded from Mexico (see Red Dawn) and the government failed to provide a defense, then maybe you would have a case. But again, I don't think that's ever happened.

 
Promote the General Welfare

This seems to be the most controversial part of the Preamble, since what the general welfare means, and how to promote it, is obviously open to much limitation. But I'm going to rely on the wisdom that Yankee23fan has been teaching me, and assume that such a question is actually irrelevant- we don't need to be concerned here with how the government chooses to promote the general welfare, but only, in terms of the Preamble, with how the Constitution promotes the general welfare.
It's likely that this phrase wasn't geared towards any specific power but the overall goal of a federal government - the "care" of all citizens. They weren't writing the Virginia Constitution or the Delware Constitution, but the United States Constitution. In that, these laws they we're about to enumerate and this system we are putting in place is to govern all citizens, not just certain citizens.

Of course, the term of citizen at the time is not how we define it now. But the overall goal is fine.

 
Promote the General Welfare

This seems to be the most controversial part of the Preamble, since what the general welfare means, and how to promote it, is obviously open to much limitation. But I'm going to rely on the wisdom that Yankee23fan has been teaching me, and assume that such a question is actually irrelevant- we don't need to be concerned here with how the government chooses to promote the general welfare, but only, in terms of the Preamble, with how the Constitution promotes the general welfare.
It's likely that this phrase wasn't geared towards any specific power but the overall goal of a federal government - the "care" of all citizens. They weren't writing the Virginia Constitution or the Delware Constitution, but the United States Constitution. In that, these laws they we're about to enumerate and this system we are putting in place is to govern all citizens, not just certain citizens.

Of course, the term of citizen at the time is not how we define it now. But the overall goal is fine.
Yankee, when the US was established as a nation, was anyone living there at the time, excluding slaves and indians, automatically considered citizens?

 
Tim you use that term 'nativist' quite a bit & I think you want it to mean something other than what it does mean. The USC concerns different elements of common defense, one part is war and military, another is naturalization. There is no doubt that a secure border is essential to national defense. Mexico failed to secure its border with Texas pre-1840 & there is no doubt it had consequences for their national defenses & its military.

 
Promote the General Welfare

This seems to be the most controversial part of the Preamble, since what the general welfare means, and how to promote it, is obviously open to much limitation. But I'm going to rely on the wisdom that Yankee23fan has been teaching me, and assume that such a question is actually irrelevant- we don't need to be concerned here with how the government chooses to promote the general welfare, but only, in terms of the Preamble, with how the Constitution promotes the general welfare.
It's likely that this phrase wasn't geared towards any specific power but the overall goal of a federal government - the "care" of all citizens. They weren't writing the Virginia Constitution or the Delware Constitution, but the United States Constitution. In that, these laws they we're about to enumerate and this system we are putting in place is to govern all citizens, not just certain citizens.

Of course, the term of citizen at the time is not how we define it now. But the overall goal is fine.
Yankee, when the US was established as a nation, was anyone living there at the time, excluding slaves and indians, automatically considered citizens?
The Constitution didn't define what a citizen was at the time and for the most part we followed the British model based on tradition. It also referenced citizens of the states, and the assumption is that if a state considered you one, you were, again based in the British model.

 
SECURE THE BLESSINGS OF LIBERTY FOR OURSELVES AND OUR POSTERITY

IMO, this is the greatest line in the Preamble, and possibly the Constitution itself. I'm not sure if there's any specific reasoning that caused the writers to use the term "blessings of liberty" rather than simply "liberty", but the way they chose to do it is far more poetic and seems to me to give the Preamble an added gravitas. It also reaffirms the idea, stated in the Declaration of Independence, that liberty is a good thing, to be desired- something we take for granted nowadays, but revolutionary to human civilization at the time it was written. (It may be of significance that the Preamble does not say "secure the blessings of democracy"- unlike the French Revolution which shortly followed the American one, our Founding Fathers did not necessarily revere democracy as in itself an ideal to be revered like freedom. Also, unlike that Revolution, we did not decapitate our upper class.)

"For ourselves and our posterity" seems to me to affirm the whole purpose of the Constitution- they're trying to create a document that we would still respect as the rule of law centuries later, and not one that could be thrown out at the whim of a dictator. The brilliant formation of our government, divided between the various branches, were designed to ensure exactly this- that it would be very difficult for a King or one man to seize power.

It's an extraordinary thing in human history, it seems to me, that the plan essentially worked; that in 2014, we still revere the Constitution and our form of government as much as we ever did, and we owe this not only to the Founding Fathers who chose to construct our government in the manner set forth in this document, but all of the those who followed them throughout our history who chose to respect their plan.

 
DO ORDAIN AND ESTABLISH THIS CONSTITUTION FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Closing the Preamble discussion with only a single, probably stupid question: is there any difference between "ordain" and "establish"? Is there some reasoning that both words were included? Or does it simply sound more officious this way?

Coming up: Article One!

 
is it Sco-shay?
The often verbose Tim sco-shaySpawned a thread of his own yesterday

His famed indecision,

oft meet with derision,

instead led to cheers of hooray

If you've never pronounced it Tim socket

You should try it before you knock it

Don't ask Tim 'bout this mystery

Lest he bore you with history

whilst he strokes his unsheathed pocket rocket

A gentleman named Tim sashay

Had so many things left to say

That he made his own residence

for anyone but eminence

(And em thinks this whole thing is gay)

This new thread of Tims O'Shea's

is a place he can cut and paste

Now he can copy right

but the thread has a copyright

belonging to General Malaise
This was beautiful, too. Excellent work!
 
Article. I. Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

The first thing that occurs to me is that the writers of Constitution begin with Congress rather than the Presidency. Was this deliberate, a belief that Congress is actually more important? Or is it simply that they have to start somewhere?

But of course the main question, which I'm hoping someone can explain to me, is this: if ALL legislative powers are supposed to be from Congress, then what exactly are executive orders? Forget for a moment the ongoing debate whether or not President Obama's latest EO regarding illegal immigrants was legal; shouldn't ALL executive orders be illegal, including the Emancipation Proclamation?

 
Article. I. Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

The first thing that occurs to me is that the writers of Constitution begin with Congress rather than the Presidency. Was this deliberate, a belief that Congress is actually more important? Or is it simply that they have to start somewhere?

But of course the main question, which I'm hoping someone can explain to me, is this: if ALL legislative powers are supposed to be from Congress, then what exactly are executive orders? Forget for a moment the ongoing debate whether or not President Obama's latest EO regarding illegal immigrants was legal; shouldn't ALL executive orders be illegal, including the Emancipation Proclamation?
Putting aside the political issues that come with executive orders, depending on the party of the president issuing them, the theory behind executive orders is that they are, as the name implies, an executive function and not a legislative one. The idea with executive orders is that they are functions of the executive authority to carry out the law, not the creation or enactment of the law. A clear overstep into the legislative sphere wouldn't be allowed; for instance, an executive order creating a federal tax rate different from the one on the books clearly would be unconstitutional. But on a practical level, executives need to have some leeway in how they choose to carry out the laws.

 
Article. I. Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

The first thing that occurs to me is that the writers of Constitution begin with Congress rather than the Presidency. Was this deliberate, a belief that Congress is actually more important? Or is it simply that they have to start somewhere?

But of course the main question, which I'm hoping someone can explain to me, is this: if ALL legislative powers are supposed to be from Congress, then what exactly are executive orders? Forget for a moment the ongoing debate whether or not President Obama's latest EO regarding illegal immigrants was legal; shouldn't ALL executive orders be illegal, including the Emancipation Proclamation?
Putting aside the political issues that come with executive orders, depending on the party of the president issuing them, the theory behind executive orders is that they are, as the name implies, an executive function and not a legislative one. The idea with executive orders is that they are functions of the executive authority to carry out the law, not the creation or enactment of the law. A clear overstep into the legislative sphere wouldn't be allowed; for instance, an executive order creating a federal tax rate different from the one on the books clearly would be unconstitutional. But on a practical level, executives need to have some leeway in how they choose to carry out the laws.
But wouldn't Lincoln freeing the slaves be an overstep into the legislative sphere?

 
Article. I. Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

The first thing that occurs to me is that the writers of Constitution begin with Congress rather than the Presidency. Was this deliberate, a belief that Congress is actually more important? Or is it simply that they have to start somewhere?

But of course the main question, which I'm hoping someone can explain to me, is this: if ALL legislative powers are supposed to be from Congress, then what exactly are executive orders? Forget for a moment the ongoing debate whether or not President Obama's latest EO regarding illegal immigrants was legal; shouldn't ALL executive orders be illegal, including the Emancipation Proclamation?
Putting aside the political issues that come with executive orders, depending on the party of the president issuing them, the theory behind executive orders is that they are, as the name implies, an executive function and not a legislative one. The idea with executive orders is that they are functions of the executive authority to carry out the law, not the creation or enactment of the law. A clear overstep into the legislative sphere wouldn't be allowed; for instance, an executive order creating a federal tax rate different from the one on the books clearly would be unconstitutional. But on a practical level, executives need to have some leeway in how they choose to carry out the laws.
But wouldn't Lincoln freeing the slaves be an overstep into the legislative sphere?
I'm not an expert on this and I don't want to do the research right now, but I believe that the EP didn't actually make slavery illegal, and it even included a loophole that if the seceding states returned to the Union, they would be allowed to maintain slavery. Slavery wasn't made illegal until the 13th amendment in 1865, which was a purely legislative function. I believe the EP was valid as a war powers measure because of the deleterious effect that removing slave labor had on the confederacy; I know the non-seceding slave states (like Maryland) were allowed to continue with slavery until the 13th amendment passed.

 
So if you were a 5 star quarterback, a high school senior from the Midwest- Urban Meyer visits you one morning and says "I want you to come play for Ohio State," then Jim Harbaugh visits you in the afternoon and says "I want you to come play for Michigan". If your choice was between these two teams and these two coaches which one would you select?

 
So if you were a 5 star quarterback, a high school senior from the Midwest- Urban Meyer visits you one morning and says "I want you to come play for Ohio State," then Jim Harbaugh visits you in the afternoon and says "I want you to come play for Michigan". If your choice was between these two teams and these two coaches which one would you select?
Assuming football is driving the decision, OSU. If combination of football and academics, Michigan.
 
So if you were a 5 star quarterback, a high school senior from the Midwest- Urban Meyer visits you one morning and says "I want you to come play for Ohio State," then Jim Harbaugh visits you in the afternoon and says "I want you to come play for Michigan". If your choice was between these two teams and these two coaches which one would you select?
Assuming football is driving the decision, OSU. If combination of football and academics, Michigan.
Is Michigan that much superior to OSU in academics? I was unaware of this. I assumed both were outstanding schools in that regard.
 
So if you were a 5 star quarterback, a high school senior from the Midwest- Urban Meyer visits you one morning and says "I want you to come play for Ohio State," then Jim Harbaugh visits you in the afternoon and says "I want you to come play for Michigan". If your choice was between these two teams and these two coaches which one would you select?
Assuming football is driving the decision, OSU. If combination of football and academics, Michigan.
Is Michigan that much superior to OSU in academics? I was unaware of this. I assumed both were outstanding schools in that regard.
They are, but I consider michigan to be, overall, the best public university in the big 10 and the better of the two.
 
I just looked it up. Michigan is ranked #29, Ohio State # 54. There were some surprising schools on that list. I wasn't aware that Rice was so high.

 
timschochet said:
Article. I. Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

The first thing that occurs to me is that the writers of Constitution begin with Congress rather than the Presidency. Was this deliberate, a belief that Congress is actually more important? Or is it simply that they have to start somewhere?

But of course the main question, which I'm hoping someone can explain to me, is this: if ALL legislative powers are supposed to be from Congress, then what exactly are executive orders? Forget for a moment the ongoing debate whether or not President Obama's latest EO regarding illegal immigrants was legal; shouldn't ALL executive orders be illegal, including the Emancipation Proclamation?
It was very deliberate. The Office of the Executive was very much an afterthought in many ways - that isn't just lore. The entirty of the power of the federal government was to be the Congress, an assembly of elected representatives that as a result was not a singular person ala the king, nor a king run puppet organization as they felt the parliment was. Congress was more important.

Executive orders are the functional device that the office of the Executive uses to run the government. When the founders acknowledged an Executive power, they understood that the office needed to be able to actually function and in that it was and is simply impossible for the legislature to debate each and every single act the executive must take to run the daily operations of the government. In that Executive Orders are nothing new. Washington issued them as did just about every president in history. And for all the bluster and complaints about Bush and now Obama doing it, their total number - combined - is drawfed by President's like Teddy Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt. They each issued them in the thousands. It should be interesting to note, though, the times they were issued in. Wilson and FDR were dealing with World Wars, Teddy was dealing with the first real executive level overhaul of the national economic system since Jackson but with that many of his were more proclamations than anything and Coolidge pretty much used it as a tool for proclamations as well. In that they were the very essence of what the EO power was understood to be. Coolidge issued a few after Harding's death to close the government, order a national day of mourning, stuff like that. He also used them to temporarily suspend certain laws and policeis for a singular specific purpose.

Now they are used for more and growing things, but the ideal is the same. The daily function of government is impossible to run through the rules and procedures of the Congress. The Executive must be able to function and enforce the laws the Congress passes, and actually run the government. If the President needed a new bill from the House every time he did anything government would halt to its knees. This is also way almost any law you really study always has the clause that empowers the executive to execute these laws within the confines of its office. Congress can't get into the minutia of actually spelling out the on the ground procedure for every law it passes. It is impossible.

So no, they shouldn't be illegal. They are a necessary function of the government of the United States. The people that don't like them are people that don't like the President who issues them or the specific issue that is affected by them. Obama's biggst critics love attacking him and the scary executive power of Executive Orders and their dastardly effect on our liberty when the EO talks about immigration or health insurance or pretty much anything that grabs a news headline, but when he issues an Executive Order closing all Executive offices on December 26 because it's the Friday after Christmas and there is literally no chance that any work gets done and no on in their right mind would want to go to work for one day before the weekend after that holiday if they can avoid it, there isn't a single GOPer out there condemning the power of the Office of the Presidency under Barack Obama.

As for the Emancipation Proclamation, that is a review unto itself and the times it was issued in really really matter. It was a war measure, issued under the war powers of the Executive in a time of open and obvious rebellion. That context is just so much very different from the times of today or other presidencies that it should be considered a document unto itself - as should other similar EO's Lincoln issued. There is a great handful of his EO's that were the appointment of General's,, issuances of war time measures that had to be handled with expediency and so on. The war powers of the executive, which you will get to here in time, cast a vastly different light on the use and issuance of these things. Which, of course, is one of the debates currently going on when it comes to terrorism.

 
timschochet said:
njherdfan said:
timschochet said:
Article. I. Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

The first thing that occurs to me is that the writers of Constitution begin with Congress rather than the Presidency. Was this deliberate, a belief that Congress is actually more important? Or is it simply that they have to start somewhere?

But of course the main question, which I'm hoping someone can explain to me, is this: if ALL legislative powers are supposed to be from Congress, then what exactly are executive orders? Forget for a moment the ongoing debate whether or not President Obama's latest EO regarding illegal immigrants was legal; shouldn't ALL executive orders be illegal, including the Emancipation Proclamation?
Putting aside the political issues that come with executive orders, depending on the party of the president issuing them, the theory behind executive orders is that they are, as the name implies, an executive function and not a legislative one. The idea with executive orders is that they are functions of the executive authority to carry out the law, not the creation or enactment of the law. A clear overstep into the legislative sphere wouldn't be allowed; for instance, an executive order creating a federal tax rate different from the one on the books clearly would be unconstitutional. But on a practical level, executives need to have some leeway in how they choose to carry out the laws.
But wouldn't Lincoln freeing the slaves be an overstep into the legislative sphere?
No. Or maybe yes. It depends. But the issuance of the EO is very much a proper executive function.

 
DO ORDAIN AND ESTABLISH THIS CONSTITUTION FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Closing the Preamble discussion with only a single, probably stupid question: is there any difference between "ordain" and "establish"? Is there some reasoning that both words were included? Or does it simply sound more officious this way?

Coming up: Article One!
Ordain can mean to create something new through the sovereign power to do so - the states through their power ordained a new government that didn't exist previously. Establish would be the ground level creation itself; offices, departments, rules and procedures. Had they just ordained it without creating some kind of system (ie, - there will be a new national government, figure it out) it would be a mess. Had they just established it (ie didn't look to the states for ratification and acceptance) it would have been a bigger mess.

 
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

1. Princeton

2. Harvard

3. Yale

4. Columbia

5. Stanford

6. University of Chicago

7. MIT

8. Duke

9. University of Pennsylvania

10. Cal Tech

11. Dartmouth

12. John Hopkins

13. Northwestern

14. Washington University in St. Louis

15. Cornell

16. Brown

16. Notre Dame

16. Vanderbilt

19. Rice

20. Cal Berkeley

21. Emory

21. Georgetown

23. UCLA

23. University of Virginia

25. Carnegie Mellon

25. Southern Cal

My alma mater, UC Irvine, came in tied at 42 with Boston University, Northeastern, Rensselaer Polytechnic, and Illinois Urbana Champagne.

 
Section. 2.

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Lots of interesting stuff here. One historical irony I've always thought was interesting: African-Americans often point to the "3/5ths clause" to demonstrate how slave-owners regarded them as less than human beings. But if I understand correctly, it was the northern, "free" states that actually benefited from the 3/5 compromise, because giving full accordance to "other persons" in the South would have given that part of the country a much greater proportion of congressmen. One question I have regarding population growth, and the original intent of those who wrote this document: why at some point did we decide to top off the Congress at 435? Based on the intent here, (1 for every 30,000) shouldn't we have 10,000 members of Congress at this point?

There are other fascinating points here, such as the requirements to be a member of Congress, the fact that there have to be elections (the governor of a state doesn't get to simply appoint), and that the House gets the sole power to impeach (though not to remove the official.)

 
Lots of good points in that article; thanks for posting.

One thing that has always struck me is that just about every male I know that was in my father's generation (mid to late 70s) served in the military in some capacity. That generation, post World War II but not quite baby boom, is dying off. None of my own friends served in the military. I have a few acquaintances who have, but I don't really KNOW any military people at this point in my life. I suspect the same will be true for my children as they grow older, but even less so. So when the author notes that very few Americans have any personal experience with the military anymore, I have no doubt that this is true.

 
Section. 2.

Lots of interesting stuff here. One historical irony I've always thought was interesting: African-Americans often point to the "3/5ths clause" to demonstrate how slave-owners regarded them as less than human beings. But if I understand correctly, it was the northern, "free" states that actually benefited from the 3/5 compromise, because giving full accordance to "other persons" in the South would have given that part of the country a much greater proportion of congressmen. One question I have regarding population growth, and the original intent of those who wrote this document: why at some point did we decide to top off the Congress at 435? Based on the intent here, (1 for every 30,000) shouldn't we have 10,000 members of Congress at this point?
The Congress pass the Reappoirtionment Act of 1911 to cap the members of the House based on the 1910 census in the midst of a growing debate between cities and rural areas and the massive population shifts that were happening at the turn of the century. The more reasoned members of Congress at the time saw that this debate could lead to massive problems so they figured out this law to take the political fight out of the reapportionment process. Remember, the Constitution does demand how this is supposed to be done and throughout our history to that point the Congress would get the census details as required and amend the House as necessary - for the most part.

After the 1911 law it worked for awhile, but the thing it didn't do was take the entire process out of the House's hands which in turn required them to do it again after the 1920 census. They couldn't. The political fights were too powerful at that time, the cities were getting more and more powerful and the debates most likely looked very similar to the slave / free debates in its context. The Congress was never able to pass a reapportionment law after 1920 because of the fighting so the House was set up still based on the 1910 census, and the country had changed alot in those 10 years and the years after. They then managed to pass the Reapportionment Act of 1929 that set the number down in stone. And yes there were debates over the constitutionality of the law but it has held up to this day. There was a case about 10 years ago when someone sued to try to lift the cap and the federal court dismissed the case.

In 1941 Congress took its own voting power out of the equation when it came to reapportionment and set up the system we have today where the census numbers pretty much control the numbers without a formal debate and bill being necessary the way it was for the decades prior.

It was likely a necessary tool in the early 20th century given how much the country was shifting. But in the last 40 years I would argue that it has become a problem. The ideal behind the House in the Constitution was for its members to be answerable to their people. Those districts have gotten so ridiculous and incomprehensible based on district creation that the House is a mess. We should repeal the apportionment acts and reset the House based on the upcoming 2020 census, and go back to the Constitutional dictate for number of members per population. We will end up with somewhere well over 1,000 House members, but that is the point. We need more voices in the House, not less.

 
Lots of good points in that article; thanks for posting.

One thing that has always struck me is that just about every male I know that was in my father's generation (mid to late 70s) served in the military in some capacity. That generation, post World War II but not quite baby boom, is dying off. None of my own friends served in the military. I have a few acquaintances who have, but I don't really KNOW any military people at this point in my life. I suspect the same will be true for my children as they grow older, but even less so. So when the author notes that very few Americans have any personal experience with the military anymore, I have no doubt that this is true.
John Adams - always the genius during and before his time was on point on this topic - I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain.

 
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

1. Princeton

2. Harvard

3. Yale

4. Columbia

5. Stanford

6. University of Chicago

7. MIT

8. Duke

9. University of Pennsylvania

10. Cal Tech

11. Dartmouth

12. John Hopkins

13. Northwestern

14. Washington University in St. Louis

15. Cornell

16. Brown

16. Notre Dame

16. Vanderbilt

19. Rice

20. Cal Berkeley

21. Emory

21. Georgetown

23. UCLA

23. University of Virginia

25. Carnegie Mellon

25. Southern Cal

My alma mater, UC Irvine, came in tied at 42 with Boston University, Northeastern, Rensselaer Polytechnic, and Illinois Urbana Champagne.
Mine is still number 1 in their category.

 
Section. 2.

Lots of interesting stuff here. One historical irony I've always thought was interesting: African-Americans often point to the "3/5ths clause" to demonstrate how slave-owners regarded them as less than human beings. But if I understand correctly, it was the northern, "free" states that actually benefited from the 3/5 compromise, because giving full accordance to "other persons" in the South would have given that part of the country a much greater proportion of congressmen. One question I have regarding population growth, and the original intent of those who wrote this document: why at some point did we decide to top off the Congress at 435? Based on the intent here, (1 for every 30,000) shouldn't we have 10,000 members of Congress at this point?
The Congress pass the Reappoirtionment Act of 1911 to cap the members of the House based on the 1910 census in the midst of a growing debate between cities and rural areas and the massive population shifts that were happening at the turn of the century. The more reasoned members of Congress at the time saw that this debate could lead to massive problems so they figured out this law to take the political fight out of the reapportionment process. Remember, the Constitution does demand how this is supposed to be done and throughout our history to that point the Congress would get the census details as required and amend the House as necessary - for the most part.

After the 1911 law it worked for awhile, but the thing it didn't do was take the entire process out of the House's hands which in turn required them to do it again after the 1920 census. They couldn't. The political fights were too powerful at that time, the cities were getting more and more powerful and the debates most likely looked very similar to the slave / free debates in its context. The Congress was never able to pass a reapportionment law after 1920 because of the fighting so the House was set up still based on the 1910 census, and the country had changed alot in those 10 years and the years after. They then managed to pass the Reapportionment Act of 1929 that set the number down in stone. And yes there were debates over the constitutionality of the law but it has held up to this day. There was a case about 10 years ago when someone sued to try to lift the cap and the federal court dismissed the case.

In 1941 Congress took its own voting power out of the equation when it came to reapportionment and set up the system we have today where the census numbers pretty much control the numbers without a formal debate and bill being necessary the way it was for the decades prior.

It was likely a necessary tool in the early 20th century given how much the country was shifting. But in the last 40 years I would argue that it has become a problem. The ideal behind the House in the Constitution was for its members to be answerable to their people. Those districts have gotten so ridiculous and incomprehensible based on district creation that the House is a mess. We should repeal the apportionment acts and reset the House based on the upcoming 2020 census, and go back to the Constitutional dictate for number of members per population. We will end up with somewhere well over 1,000 House members, but that is the point. We need more voices in the House, not less.
Totally agree. This is one of the most important, and maybe antidemocratic and maybe harmful, laws we have passed in our nation's history.

A similar law was the Constitutional Amendment changing the nature of Senators. There were obviously good things associated with that but it also represented a major power shift away from the States.

I think a lot of people would like to have another shot at both of these.

 
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How long does it take to type a post like that Cuba one on an iPhone?
Might as well ask how long it takes the rain to condense from a cloud. Or a frown to become a smile. You might as well ask how long it would take to empty the ocean, or to count the grains of sand in Chronos's hourglass. It takes as long as it takes, fatguy. As long as it takes.
That was beautiful, man.
You're not getting my Bud Light, Phil.

 
Section. 2.

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Lots of interesting stuff here. One historical irony I've always thought was interesting: African-Americans often point to the "3/5ths clause" to demonstrate how slave-owners regarded them as less than human beings. But if I understand correctly, it was the northern, "free" states that actually benefited from the 3/5 compromise, because giving full accordance to "other persons" in the South would have given that part of the country a much greater proportion of congressmen. One question I have regarding population growth, and the original intent of those who wrote this document: why at some point did we decide to top off the Congress at 435? Based on the intent here, (1 for every 30,000) shouldn't we have 10,000 members of Congress at this point?

There are other fascinating points here, such as the requirements to be a member of Congress, the fact that there have to be elections (the governor of a state doesn't get to simply appoint), and that the House gets the sole power to impeach (though not to remove the official.)
Aside from Yank's comment above (again, great post) I just thought that I would point out the putative reason used at the time for the enactment of the Reappoirtionment Act of 1911:

They claimed it was because of a lack of office space in and around Congress.

Can you imagine that? Shows how much things changed.

 
Don't get me started on the 17th Amendment.
Oh I hope to get you started- just not yet.

Yankee, help me understand: if the House of Representatives are supposed to be closer to "the people" than the Senate, that means they're going to be more emotional and less judicious, and I think that's always been pretty evident. But if this is the case, then why give the House the sole ability to impeach? Shouldn't impeachment be a more judicious, more thoughtful, less democratic action? Why not leave it in the hands of either the Senate, or an independent judiciary, rather than in the hands of a House almost guaranteed to make it political? (IMO, the one impeachment that took place in recent years, that of Bill Clinton, was largely partisan, as evidenced by the vote.)

 
Don't get me started on the 17th Amendment.
Oh I hope to get you started- just not yet.

Yankee, help me understand: if the House of Representatives are supposed to be closer to "the people" than the Senate, that means they're going to be more emotional and less judicious, and I think that's always been pretty evident. But if this is the case, then why give the House the sole ability to impeach? Shouldn't impeachment be a more judicious, more thoughtful, less democratic action? Why not leave it in the hands of either the Senate, or an independent judiciary, rather than in the hands of a House almost guaranteed to make it political? (IMO, the one impeachment that took place in recent years, that of Bill Clinton, was largely partisan, as evidenced by the vote.)
House charges, Senate convicts. Can't have one body be prosecutor and judge, right?

 
Section. 2.

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Lots of interesting stuff here. One historical irony I've always thought was interesting: African-Americans often point to the "3/5ths clause" to demonstrate how slave-owners regarded them as less than human beings. But if I understand correctly, it was the northern, "free" states that actually benefited from the 3/5 compromise, because giving full accordance to "other persons" in the South would have given that part of the country a much greater proportion of congressmen. One question I have regarding population growth, and the original intent of those who wrote this document: why at some point did we decide to top off the Congress at 435? Based on the intent here, (1 for every 30,000) shouldn't we have 10,000 members of Congress at this point?

There are other fascinating points here, such as the requirements to be a member of Congress, the fact that there have to be elections (the governor of a state doesn't get to simply appoint), and that the House gets the sole power to impeach (though not to remove the official.)
Aside from Yank's comment above (again, great post) I just thought that I would point out the putative reason used at the time for the enactment of the Reappoirtionment Act of 1911:

They claimed it was because of a lack of office space in and around Congress.

Can you imagine that? Shows how much things changed.
Yankee's post was great, and I understand his point and your agreement with it, but it does seem to me that 10,000 Congressmen (which is what we would get if we based it on one man for every 30,000 people) seems unwieldy to me. Yankee would have it around 1,000, which means one man for every 300,000 people, but that's no less arbritary than keeping it at 435. Logically, the more people you have, the less able they are to govern.

 

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