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timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (2 Viewers)

Yankee23Fan said:
William Henry Harrison (1881)

... Conclusion

Harrison’s presidency is rightfully a footnote in our history because you have no choice to do it. He gets a 1 for persuasion, 1 for crisis, 2 for economy, 2 for foreign affairs, 2 for Congress, 3 for civil rights and 1 for context. Clocking in an awe inspiring 12 total raw points. He was a solid member of our history leading up to being elected President. But then his legacy ended before it could get started. His death created a crisis that the country had to endure for the first time – the death of the President.
I'm glad you're giving WHH some score here. It seems unfair or unfortunate that some could be dead and through no fault of their own end up with some of the worst in US history. Given they did little harm it seems to me guys like this should either get a DQ or somehow end up shmushed in the middle somehow. Maybe some of the worst of the worst will end up with negative scores, at any rate I hope you're deducting for some of the worst acts in our history, not just adding for the good things. :coffee:
Flip side...if Yankee were to subtract points for poor Presidential behavior instead of adding points for achievement, WHH could have ended up amongst our greatest Presidents ever!

The poor guy should be pretty much the definition of baseline for Presidents, but these grading systems will inevitably have him far too low for what he didn't do good or ill.

 
Arodin, my agenda is a little bit different here. For this list, I am not applying my own moral standards, which I did in the Presidential list, but instead concentrating on historical impact (though I do admire most of the people on this list, as I wrote.) That's why there's no "good" or "bad" this time around.

I agree with you that there are other abolitionists that were better human beings than John Brown- you'll note I called him a terrorist- but few with his impact. There are two other abolitionists who will appear later in this list.

 
I want to add that, in terms of ranking the two other abolitionists above John Brown, Brown is not on this list for his abolitionism, but because what he did was critical to leading the nation into a civil war- a small distinction, but important. The other two abolitionists were more important for influencing the public to accept abolitionism, and thus they also contributed to the Civil War, but their main contribution (and IMO, even more important than Brown's) was to help condition public opinion in the United States to accept the end of slavery as a desired goal.

 
96. Huey Long

The time has come for all good men to rise above principle.

Only in Louisiana? He attended a few months at LSU (couldn't afford the textbooks), a few months at Oklahoma University, a year at Tulane Law School, and somehow convinced the state board to give him the bar. He started winning workman's law cases. Then he sued Standard Oil and became famous. He ran for office, and became one of the first American politicians to recognize the importance of radio. From the beginning he was a populist; he was the candidate of "every man"- but unlike most southern populists of the time, "every man" for Huey included blacks- he ran against the KKK, and made it clear he was a "friend" of poor black farmers.

In 1928 Long became governor of Louisiana, elected as an Andrew Jackson-like people's rebellion against the corporate interests that ruled the state. He began a huge public works program, mostly by bullying his opponents. The rural poor, black and white alike, regarded Huey as their hero. They didn't notice, or didn't care, that Huey's methods were underhanded. And that he quickly became the most powerful governor in American history, and then the most powerful Senator, controlling every aspect of his state's business (and later, beyond the state and including the entire region.)

Saints referred to Long as a fascist, and this may be true in a sense, but he was very different from the famous fascists of the era like Hitler and Mussolini. Huey was an American dictator, and as such he had great charm and a sense of humor, which is characteristic of the American populist. There is no question that his control of Louisiana was absolute. I have only briefly touched on his career here; his story is entirely fascinating and well worth reading about, (including the famous fictional account, All The King's Men).

Huey Long supported FDR in the 1932 election and that support was key to FDR's victory. But then Long turned against the New Deal and planned to run for President himself with his own plan, "Share Our Wealth". He might have become a serious threat to FDR in 1936, and had he been elected, he might be much higher up this list- or he might have turned the United States into his own dictatorship. We'll never know, because Huey was assassinated before this could ever happen.

Up next: Rose up from the streets of Brooklyn to become a star on Tin Pan Alley...
What kind of place can that alley be?

 
Arodin, my agenda is a little bit different here. For this list, I am not applying my own moral standards, which I did in the Presidential list, but instead concentrating on historical impact (though I do admire most of the people on this list, as I wrote.) That's why there's no "good" or "bad" this time around.

I agree with you that there are other abolitionists that were better human beings than John Brown- you'll note I called him a terrorist- but few with his impact. There are two other abolitionists who will appear later in this list.
Fair enough...I posted without reading further...cardinal sin on these forums.

I can certainly see the logic for Brown being among the most "impactful" Americans.

With this understanding, I will be enjoying reading the rest of your top 100...then trying to find better Americans whom you omitted.

Between this, Yankee's remarkably informed Presidential rankings, and the masterful fruit parody, this thread has become my go-to read outside of the Shark Pool.

 
95. George Gershwin

Life is a lot like jazz. It's best when you improvise.

George Gershwin was not the greatest jazz composer in American history. That would probably be Duke Ellington, and if we're considering jazz innovators, we'd first have to look at Benny Goodman, or Miles Davis, or one other guy I won't mention right now. Gershwin was not America's greatest classical composer; that title probably belongs to Aaron Copeland, or possibly Leonard Bernstein. Gershwin was not America's greatest movie score composer; I would guess that would be Alfred Newman or John Williams. And Gershwin's cannot be considered as America's pre-eminent songwriter: Stephen Foster comes to mind, and in terms of Tin Pan Alley and popular music, we have had Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, the duo of Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein, and later on a few others which again I won't mention right now.

But all of the giants that I HAVE mentioned did not make this list, and Gershwin does, because he represents a synthesis of all of these art forms: jazz, classical, movie scores, and popular songwriting, and as a result, especially of the first two categories, he is often considered our greatest composer. Which is interesting, given his background- born in Russia, raised in Brooklyn and familiar with entertainment from the Yiddish theater, he didn't become aware of classical music until he was 10. He didn't become aware of jazz until he was in his late teens. Yet he mastered both forms. "Rhapsody In Blue", his masterpiece, is a composition that is regarded as the best of American music. Too bad so many young people only recognize it as the theme song for United Airlines. (Also, a shout out to George for writing "Strike Up the Band!" for the UCLA Bruins!)

I had a music teacher in college who asserted that the "golden age of Tin Pan Alley", which featured Cole Porter and George Gershwin, was the greatest era of popular music ever, and nothing written since rivals it in quality. Having grown up loving rock and roll myself, including the different genres, (and probably my personal favorite, the singer-songwriter era of the early 1970s) I always begged to differ. But I'm certainly no expert, so maybe there is something to this argument.

Next up: One of the most admired men in American world history, with a lifetime audience of over 2 billion people...

 
Pear needs to be higher on the list. Maybe not the most versatile fruit, but one of the best for snacking without making a mess. Not having it top 10 is a travesty.

 
John Tyler (1841-1845)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

You can give Tyler points for standing above party the way that Washington and Adams did. That would be fair. To a point. But almost immediately upon entering office following the death of William Henry Harrison he faced so much ill will and negativity that it’s actually amazing he was able to finish the term. His domestic policies pretty much went nowhere. Congress hated him, the media made fun of him constantly and he wasn’t able to even run for re-election. His foreign policy was solid to above average though, so he doesn’t get a 1 here. He isn’t getting a 10 either. His Accidency as he was called for the entirety of his term was pretty much doomed to fail and he didn’t have the ability to change that fateful outcome.

War & Crisis

Tyler’s Presidency was a crisis. The first time a President died, there was no constitutional procedure in place to deal with how this Vice President was to take office. Debates raged about whether he was actually the president or just a care taker. Henry Clay wanted to control him like he thought he could control Harrison. His party and his own cabinet didn’t feel he was President. His cabinet actually voted before he got to Washington to call him Vice President acting as President. Seriously. He ignored them and told them that he was the President. Which was a good call. It took Congress years to accept that and even then he had to deal with bills being introduced to remove his title as President.

Democrats didn’t support his claim to being President. When he received letters in the White House not specifically giving him the title President he ignored them. Guy probably missed a Publisher’s Clearing House notice to spite himself.

The economy was still a mess from Van Buren and Jackson and the infighting in his own party led him to veto economic plan and after plan finally coming to an agreement on the 1841 Tariff Act that was really just a placeholder to keep the south at bay and help the Whigs actually run Congress. His cabinet eventually hated him because he wasn’t their puppet and on one day they each resigned in a political maneuver they thought would have him resign in disgrace. Daniel Webster hung on to defy Clay and with Webster behind him he stayed. When he did he lost his party for good.

He diplomatically played political games inside the country to get the small group of people that would support him in place to get the annexation of Texas done. Instead of another all out war there he managed to eventually get that done. But not in any way that could help him. In 1844 prior to the election the group of supporters he had joined him on the USS Princeton on its first voyage. When it came time for the gun salute on the ship the main cannon misfired, exploded and killed almost everyone above deck including all of his closest advisors that supported his annexation efforts. His chance to run for President died that day for the most part. He was below deck and unhurt. He carried to safety the daughter of one of his allies, Julia, and the two eventually married.

Thinking it would help him politically, the few supporters he had left approached former Vice President John Calhoun about being appointed Tyler’s Vice President. He accepted. But Tyler didn’t know about the deal and hated it, but on honor he agreed to it. Calhoun was a slavery supporter through and through and by getting him into that office Tyler ultimately destroyed any chance at an independent run at the Presidency. He tried to work with Democrats, his party before he joined the Whigs and attacked them, to get annexation done and gain some support in the party again for a run with them. His first treaty to accept Texas was voted down. But, the work he did to get there caught the eye of Andrew Jackson who still ran the party. Jackson called off the dogs since he supported getting Texas and eventually Congress did support the joint resolution to get Texas.

Now being kinda part of the Democratic Party, at their convention Tyler made a bid for nomination. He was fought mainly by former President Martin Van Buren. The convention deadlocked for ballot after ballot with both men slowly losing support. Eventually James Polk took the lead. Jackson told his party to formally welcome Tyler back as a member in return for him backing down which he did and Polk got the nomination.

Economy

The Jackson created panic was still in swing. He fought his own party on how to deal with but they eventually came to an agreement. He got through Congress several bills, including new bankruptcy laws that helped the system. But the 1842 Tariff bill was a band-aide and Tyler didn’t have the Congressional support or political power to do much else.

Foreign Policy

Tyler gets high marks for his foreign policy though. Domestically he was bad but as it came to American power he was a good President. He got a trade treaty with China, and one with Germany which Congress didn’t ratify. He extended the Monroe Doctrine to Hawaii setting the stage to get that state into the fold. His SecState Daniel Webster got the next to last treaty with England done over Canada leaving only the Oregon territory left to deal with for the next administration. And he ended the Seminole War. His grade here is solid.

Executive Skills/Congress

He is going to get a low grade here at the end of the day though it’s not his own fault. His party was stupid and the Democrats seized the opportunity to make it worse. But he was unable to overcome it. Many never accepted his legitimacy. His cabinet resigned to try to get him too. Democrats fought him constantly and his own party expelled him. Many of this was done because he had no choice but to be independent of them, but he didn’t have the skill to work with them more than he should. It takes two to tango. He was also the first President to face an actual impeachment attempt.

Justice/Rights

He ended the Seminole War, but he let John Calhoun back into government. Grabbing Texas was good for one part here and bad for this part here. Overall, Tyler was looking for a political power base wherever he could find it and by eventually trying to get back into the Democratic Party he signed on to their growing discontent by default. He ended up a traitor to his country by agreeing to serve in the confederate congress (but the scoring doesn’t count that).

Context

Tyler is going to get a high mark here. He was the first Vice President to take the office upon the death of the President, and in doing so he set a precedent that was vitally important. He could have allowed himself to be a figure head of Congress. But he didn’t do that. And in the context of the times this one showing of strength against even his own party is and continues to be a good thing for the nature of the office. He expanded American power west, handled foreign affairs well for the time and when the writing was on the wall for his own presidency finally in 1845, he did the honorable thing to make sure that Texas joined the Union.

Conclusion

Tyler is going to score a little higher than expected. On persuasion he gets a 2, on crisis he gets a 6, on economy he gets a 3, congress 1, civil rights 2, foreign policy 8, and context 7. His Accidency was a solid President all things considered, clocking in at 29. Tyler faced something that no other President had before and if nothing else, he managed to keep the office itself an important one. We can only wonder what would have happened had Clay and his buddies managed to control the office once Harrison died. Would the office ceased to be as important as it was growing to be? Would we effectively had become a parliament? It’s certainly possible. If all Congress had to wait for was a President to die in office to gain power, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what would have happened in the coming years. There are still rumors about a President to come and who or what actually killed him.

 
John Tyler (1841-1845)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

You can give Tyler points for standing above party the way that Washington and Adams did. That would be fair. To a point. But almost immediately upon entering office following the death of William Henry Harrison he faced so much ill will and negativity that it’s actually amazing he was able to finish the term. His domestic policies pretty much went nowhere. Congress hated him, the media made fun of him constantly and he wasn’t able to even run for re-election. His foreign policy was solid to above average though, so he doesn’t get a 1 here. He isn’t getting a 10 either. His Accidency as he was called for the entirety of his term was pretty much doomed to fail and he didn’t have the ability to change that fateful outcome.

War & Crisis

Tyler’s Presidency was a crisis. The first time a President died, there was no constitutional procedure in place to deal with how this Vice President was to take office. Debates raged about whether he was actually the president or just a care taker. Henry Clay wanted to control him like he thought he could control Harrison. His party and his own cabinet didn’t feel he was President. His cabinet actually voted before he got to Washington to call him Vice President acting as President. Seriously. He ignored them and told them that he was the President. Which was a good call. It took Congress years to accept that and even then he had to deal with bills being introduced to remove his title as President.

Democrats didn’t support his claim to being President. When he received letters in the White House not specifically giving him the title President he ignored them. Guy probably missed a Publisher’s Clearing House notice to spite himself.

The economy was still a mess from Van Buren and Jackson and the infighting in his own party led him to veto economic plan and after plan finally coming to an agreement on the 1841 Tariff Act that was really just a placeholder to keep the south at bay and help the Whigs actually run Congress. His cabinet eventually hated him because he wasn’t their puppet and on one day they each resigned in a political maneuver they thought would have him resign in disgrace. Daniel Webster hung on to defy Clay and with Webster behind him he stayed. When he did he lost his party for good.

He diplomatically played political games inside the country to get the small group of people that would support him in place to get the annexation of Texas done. Instead of another all out war there he managed to eventually get that done. But not in any way that could help him. In 1844 prior to the election the group of supporters he had joined him on the USS Princeton on its first voyage. When it came time for the gun salute on the ship the main cannon misfired, exploded and killed almost everyone above deck including all of his closest advisors that supported his annexation efforts. His chance to run for President died that day for the most part. He was below deck and unhurt. He carried to safety the daughter of one of his allies, Julia, and the two eventually married.

Thinking it would help him politically, the few supporters he had left approached former Vice President John Calhoun about being appointed Tyler’s Vice President. He accepted. But Tyler didn’t know about the deal and hated it, but on honor he agreed to it. Calhoun was a slavery supporter through and through and by getting him into that office Tyler ultimately destroyed any chance at an independent run at the Presidency. He tried to work with Democrats, his party before he joined the Whigs and attacked them, to get annexation done and gain some support in the party again for a run with them. His first treaty to accept Texas was voted down. But, the work he did to get there caught the eye of Andrew Jackson who still ran the party. Jackson called off the dogs since he supported getting Texas and eventually Congress did support the joint resolution to get Texas.

Now being kinda part of the Democratic Party, at their convention Tyler made a bid for nomination. He was fought mainly by former President Martin Van Buren. The convention deadlocked for ballot after ballot with both men slowly losing support. Eventually James Polk took the lead. Jackson told his party to formally welcome Tyler back as a member in return for him backing down which he did and Polk got the nomination.

Economy

The Jackson created panic was still in swing. He fought his own party on how to deal with but they eventually came to an agreement. He got through Congress several bills, including new bankruptcy laws that helped the system. But the 1842 Tariff bill was a band-aide and Tyler didn’t have the Congressional support or political power to do much else.

Foreign Policy

Tyler gets high marks for his foreign policy though. Domestically he was bad but as it came to American power he was a good President. He got a trade treaty with China, and one with Germany which Congress didn’t ratify. He extended the Monroe Doctrine to Hawaii setting the stage to get that state into the fold. His SecState Daniel Webster got the next to last treaty with England done over Canada leaving only the Oregon territory left to deal with for the next administration. And he ended the Seminole War. His grade here is solid.

Executive Skills/Congress

He is going to get a low grade here at the end of the day though it’s not his own fault. His party was stupid and the Democrats seized the opportunity to make it worse. But he was unable to overcome it. Many never accepted his legitimacy. His cabinet resigned to try to get him too. Democrats fought him constantly and his own party expelled him. Many of this was done because he had no choice but to be independent of them, but he didn’t have the skill to work with them more than he should. It takes two to tango. He was also the first President to face an actual impeachment attempt.

Justice/Rights

He ended the Seminole War, but he let John Calhoun back into government. Grabbing Texas was good for one part here and bad for this part here. Overall, Tyler was looking for a political power base wherever he could find it and by eventually trying to get back into the Democratic Party he signed on to their growing discontent by default. He ended up a traitor to his country by agreeing to serve in the confederate congress (but the scoring doesn’t count that).

Context

Tyler is going to get a high mark here. He was the first Vice President to take the office upon the death of the President, and in doing so he set a precedent that was vitally important. He could have allowed himself to be a figure head of Congress. But he didn’t do that. And in the context of the times this one showing of strength against even his own party is and continues to be a good thing for the nature of the office. He expanded American power west, handled foreign affairs well for the time and when the writing was on the wall for his own presidency finally in 1845, he did the honorable thing to make sure that Texas joined the Union.

Conclusion

Tyler is going to score a little higher than expected. On persuasion he gets a 2, on crisis he gets a 6, on economy he gets a 3, congress 1, civil rights 2, foreign policy 8, and context 7. His Accidency was a solid President all things considered, clocking in at 29. Tyler faced something that no other President had before and if nothing else, he managed to keep the office itself an important one. We can only wonder what would have happened had Clay and his buddies managed to control the office once Harrison died. Would the office ceased to be as important as it was growing to be? Would we effectively had become a parliament? It’s certainly possible. If all Congress had to wait for was a President to die in office to gain power, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what would have happened in the coming years. There are still rumors about a President to come and who or what actually killed him.
This is fascinating. Reading about Tyler too's cabinet resigning en masse highlights that our current political squabbles are no different than they were 175 years ago. Remarkable the more things change the more things stay the same.

 
Reasonable ranking for pear. Just look at the untapped (failed?) market that pear has failed to exploit where other fruits are staples. Pear juice? Pear flavored hard candy? Pear ice cream? What mixed drinks use pear garnish? I like pear, but lets face it pear is lucky to make the list.

 
Reasonable ranking for pear. Just look at the untapped (failed?) market that pear has failed to exploit where other fruits are staples. Pear juice? Pear flavored hard candy? Pear ice cream? What mixed drinks use pear garnish? I like pear, but lets face it pear is lucky to make the list.
Pears are great as is. They don't need to be flavoring for some other mess or used for garnish. They stand as a perfect breakfast or snack any time of the year. Should be in the top 10 easily.

Frankly, Bender, you disappointed me but the YouTube video made up for it.

 
95. George Gershwin

Life is a lot like jazz. It's best when you improvise.

George Gershwin was not the greatest jazz composer in American history. That would probably be Duke Ellington, and if we're considering jazz innovators, we'd first have to look at Benny Goodman, or Miles Davis, or one other guy I won't mention right now. Gershwin was not America's greatest classical composer; that title probably belongs to Aaron Copeland, or possibly Leonard Bernstein. Gershwin was not America's greatest movie score composer; I would guess that would be Alfred Newman or John Williams. And Gershwin's cannot be considered as America's pre-eminent songwriter: Stephen Foster comes to mind, and in terms of Tin Pan Alley and popular music, we have had Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, the duo of Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein, and later on a few others which again I won't mention right now.

But all of the giants that I HAVE mentioned did not make this list, and Gershwin does, because he represents a synthesis of all of these art forms: jazz, classical, movie scores, and popular songwriting, and as a result, especially of the first two categories, he is often considered our greatest composer. Which is interesting, given his background- born in Russia, raised in Brooklyn and familiar with entertainment from the Yiddish theater, he didn't become aware of classical music until he was 10. He didn't become aware of jazz until he was in his late teens. Yet he mastered both forms. "Rhapsody In Blue", his masterpiece, is a composition that is regarded as the best of American music. Too bad so many young people only recognize it as the theme song for United Airlines. (Also, a shout out to George for writing "Strike Up the Band!" for the UCLA Bruins!)

I had a music teacher in college who asserted that the "golden age of Tin Pan Alley", which featured Cole Porter and George Gershwin, was the greatest era of popular music ever, and nothing written since rivals it in quality. Having grown up loving rock and roll myself, including the different genres, (and probably my personal favorite, the singer-songwriter era of the early 1970s) I always begged to differ. But I'm certainly no expert, so maybe there is something to this argument.

Next up: One of the most admired men in American world history, with a lifetime audience of over 2 billion people...
Great choice Tim. My favorite American composition is Rhapsody in Blue. One of my favorite pieces of music period.My Italian grandmother was from this time period. She even lived in NYC for a brief period as well. She baby sat me when I was little so I grew up singing songs like "Yes we have no bananas" and "Swanee". My friends used to look at me like I had two heads.

I like the "Rose up" part of the clue. Very nice.

 
Reasonable ranking for pear. Just look at the untapped (failed?) market that pear has failed to exploit where other fruits are staples. Pear juice? Pear flavored hard candy? Pear ice cream? What mixed drinks use pear garnish? I like pear, but lets face it pear is lucky to make the list.
Pear juice is in everything. Look at the ingredients on any sort of blended juice drink (Snapple, Capri Sun, etc.) and you'll see pear juice right up near the top (behind water and HFCS, of course).

 
I'm on a crusade to find out who #94 is... Maybe Tim can give us s'more clues?

By the way, pears sucks. They don't even have a good shape. Devil's fruit indeed.

 
James K Polk (1845-1849)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

There is going to be a recurring theme here. When a President basically says, while running, I’m going to do w,x,y and z – and then does it almost exactly as promised you kinda have to give him a high score here. And Polk will get a high score. Polk promised, to do four things while President – establish an independent treasury system, reduce tariffs, solve the Oregon territory and get California and New Mexico from Mexico. He also promised not to run for a second term. He accomplished it all. And he was considered a very very good public speaker. With a JAcksonian background and support, Polk got everything he sought while President.

War & Crisis

Polk slowed down the legal annexation of Texas so that war didn’t break out with Mexico (you can argue he did that in front while behind the scenes he was very much going to take it all by force if necessary). It didn’t work though as his diplomatic work with Santa Anna resulted in Santa Anna reneging on the deal once he safely got back into Mexico. Instead of working to have Mexico sell New Mexico and California he instead tried to attack American forces. But Polk had Winfield Scott and Zachary Taylor. Santa Anna got routed and we actually took Mexico City. Polk eventually pressed Mexico for peace and got it on the terms he demanded.

The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was a massive win for Polk. It finally gave America total control over basically all of the west from Mexico and had included in it any Mexican claims to Texas. He tried to buy Cuba from Spain too but they didn’t want to lose their rum and sugar just yet.

Beyond Mexico, Polk ran such a smooth government that there really weren’t any other crisis’ to deal with. There were grumblings about war in Oregon when England wouldn’t budge in negotiations but Polk handled that matter masterfully and war wasn’t necessary.

Economy

Again, he did what he promised, got a treasury and reduced tariffs. The economy started to rebound while he was in office and the acquisition of all Mexican claimed lands in the west plus the agreement to take over the Oregon territory once and for all cemented a long standing and growing economic boon for settlers in the west and with it the expansion of the country.

Foreign Policy

He averted any attempt at war with England and got Oregon along the border he originally wanted. He destroyed Mexico and ended up getting the rest of the west along with Texas once and for all. His foreign policy was as close to perfect as you could get. He also set the groundwork for what would become the Panama Canal.

Executive Skills/Congress

Again, he promised to do four things and did them. Congress worked well with him. A young House Member named Abraham Lincoln fought him occasionally though. That guy. He politically managed to connect the Oregon problem with the Texas/Mexico problem so that slave and free states were appeased. And instead of continued fighting in Congress over interior improvements that always seemed to favor certain districts over others, Polk got a bill passed that created the Department of the Interior.

Justice/Rights

Polk was a slave owner until the day he died. He did not support the Wilmont Proviso that would have ended the question in newly gained lands from Mexico. Instead he favored extending the Missouri Compromise line to the Pacific Ocean. He supported slavery but knew that its time was coming giving the fighting that Texas caused, and that the lands he acquired would cause. You could argue that this military use in Mexico was barbaric, and it probably was. War is.

Context

He said what he was going to do and did what he said. In a time of needed expansion Polk massively increased the size of America. With war brewing with Mexico, he tried peace but fought the war and won and settled the Texas question. His slavery policy was a continued attempt to placate both sides and stop any fighting amongst them. He stood up to Congress when he had to but worked with them rather well. And he stuck to what he was going to do in office then kept his promise and left. For that era, he was probably the quintessential President. Expansionist, good speaker, political acumen of the highest order, and understanding of the deep seeded problems of slavery trying to make it work in a system that was working less and less.

Conclusion

Polk gets high marks. On persuasion he gets a 9, on crisis he gets a 8, on economy he gets a 7, foreign policy 9, congress 9, civil rights 4 and context 9. 55 total points. You can attack Polk for being a bit of a war monger in terms of his expansionist policies but he finished writing the map of what would be the continental United States. Mexico was in the way, and he was probably the strongest believer in Manifestdestiny that we had in the office.

 
For some reason my computer ate some of the Mexico part of that. Ah well. Basically you could argue that war wasn't necessary, Polk went way too far in the quest for more land, and the Texas war, the Mexican War and the eventual deal he made was more evil and theft than grand and honorable. You wouldn't be too wrong either.

 
John Tyler (1841-1845)
This is fascinating. Reading about Tyler too's cabinet resigning en masse highlights that our current political squabbles are no different than they were 175 years ago. Remarkable the more things change the more things stay the same.
They did it like a movie scene. Think Rudy when the players went into the office one by one and put down their jersey so that Rudy could play. One by one, the cabinet members walked into his office and handed him their resignations.

And yes, our political fights today are no different than the past and I would even argue that we were worse in the past (and I have tirelessly here). What Jefferson did to Adams and Washington, what Hamilton did to Adams, but Burr and Hamilton did to each other, what Calhoun and his friends did their opponents, what Clay did to his opponents, what Jackson did for 8 years, and on and on and on is just as much, if not more awful than what we do know.

 
The Ref said:
1.01 Ben Franklin
That would be my vote. But as a Penn alumn I concede I'm a bit biased here.Statesman, inventor, philosopher, businessman, and a swinger on top of it?? Bangin French chicks half his age? Looking like THAT?? Can't miss top 5'er.

 
General Tso said:
timschochet said:
95. George Gershwin

Life is a lot like jazz. It's best when you improvise.

George Gershwin was not the greatest jazz composer in American history. That would probably be Duke Ellington, and if we're considering jazz innovators, we'd first have to look at Benny Goodman, or Miles Davis, or one other guy I won't mention right now. Gershwin was not America's greatest classical composer; that title probably belongs to Aaron Copeland, or possibly Leonard Bernstein. Gershwin was not America's greatest movie score composer; I would guess that would be Alfred Newman or John Williams. And Gershwin's cannot be considered as America's pre-eminent songwriter: Stephen Foster comes to mind, and in terms of Tin Pan Alley and popular music, we have had Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, the duo of Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein, and later on a few others which again I won't mention right now.

But all of the giants that I HAVE mentioned did not make this list, and Gershwin does, because he represents a synthesis of all of these art forms: jazz, classical, movie scores, and popular songwriting, and as a result, especially of the first two categories, he is often considered our greatest composer. Which is interesting, given his background- born in Russia, raised in Brooklyn and familiar with entertainment from the Yiddish theater, he didn't become aware of classical music until he was 10. He didn't become aware of jazz until he was in his late teens. Yet he mastered both forms. "Rhapsody In Blue", his masterpiece, is a composition that is regarded as the best of American music. Too bad so many young people only recognize it as the theme song for United Airlines. (Also, a shout out to George for writing "Strike Up the Band!" for the UCLA Bruins!)

I had a music teacher in college who asserted that the "golden age of Tin Pan Alley", which featured Cole Porter and George Gershwin, was the greatest era of popular music ever, and nothing written since rivals it in quality. Having grown up loving rock and roll myself, including the different genres, (and probably my personal favorite, the singer-songwriter era of the early 1970s) I always begged to differ. But I'm certainly no expert, so maybe there is something to this argument.

Next up: One of the most admired men in American world history, with a lifetime audience of over 2 billion people...
Great choice Tim. My favorite American composition is Rhapsody in Blue. One of my favorite pieces of music period.My Italian grandmother was from this time period. She even lived in NYC for a brief period as well. She baby sat me when I was little so I grew up singing songs like "Yes we have no bananas" and "Swanee". My friends used to look at me like I had two heads.

I like the "Rose up" part of the clue. Very nice.
On board with The Gersh.

 
ScottNorwood said:
Pear needs to be higher on the list. Maybe not the most versatile fruit, but one of the best for snacking without making a mess. Not having it top 10 is a travesty.
True, they can also be brandied, there should be extra points for flexibility.

 
Yankee, I think when you're done it will be interesting to look at rankings sorted within each category as well as the overall.

Maybe I'll start keeping a spreadsheet if you don't already have one you're working from.

 
10 Thomas Jefferson

9 Bob Saget

8 Barnum Bailey

7 Uncle Pennybags from Monopoly

6 Wayne Gretzky

7 Julius Child

6 Bob Barker

5 Rod Roddy

4 Davey Boone

3 Peter Pan

2 Mr Met

1 Ben Franklin

 
Someone explain this Gershwin thing to me. He really is the guy who invented the United jingle at the moment.

I realize that his compositions are still occasionally played, but has anything had long-lasting relevance with the exception of the United jingle.

To me he's a culturally relevant George, on the same level as a Lucas or an RR Martin, but not a transcendent George.

I know tim's a fan of Marshall, you've got a few George presidents, a playwright, a couple of businessmen, a couple of generals an actor, a comedian and Mr PB&J himself, all of whom I believe are more deserving George's.

What makes Gershowitz more worthy than most of the George's above who will be excluded?

 
94. Billy Graham

Being a Christian is more than just an instantaneous conversion- it is a daily process whereby you grow to be more and more like Christ.

There have been several Protestant Christian ministers and leaders who have played a vital role in American history, but, partly because of our communication age, few have had the impact of Billy Graham. Graham first began preaching in 1937 at the age of 19, became famous in 1949, and only stopped preaching full time around 7 years ago. From 1955 to 2005, Graham was voted on the top ten list of most respected Americans EVERY YEAR- that is an extraordinary length of time, and it's hard to imagine that anyone will ever match it. As I wrote in the clue, over 2 billion people around the world have listened to Billy Graham, which is also an extraordinary number- perhaps only matched by John Paul II.

Graham's Christianity was Southern Baptist, traditional American Protestant (though he was raised as a Presbyterian). He was an integrationist who worked with Martin Luther King, Jr. (and bailed King out of prison.) Graham preached a positive message in his "Crusades" of redemption and Christian values and duties; he tended to stay away from the social condemnation that Jerry Falwell and others exemplified. Graham was a friend to several Presidents, notably Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. And he was beloved by millions of ordinary Christian Americans.

There is, however, a darker side to Graham. In 1960, he campaigned against John F. Kennedy because Graham believed a Catholic was unsuited to be President. In Nixon's Oval Office, Graham and Nixon had a long conversation about the Jews, caught in tape, in which both agreed what a "threat" they were. Graham regarded Mormonism as a cult, and non-Christian- though in 2012, after Graham publicly endorsed Mitt Romney for President, all such comments about the Mormons were pulled from Graham's website.

But had Billy Graham been defined by the above issues, he never would have become America's most popular minister. Instead, it has been his optimistic, non-judgmental message which has attracted so many millions throughout the decades. I believe the quote that I chose for him is very representative of his style- he believes that Christians have a duty to "act like Christ" themselves, rather than to condemn others for not doing so.

Next up: She pushed the boundaries of entertainment, and created her own vogue.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Yankee, I think when you're done it will be interesting to look at rankings sorted within each category as well as the overall.

Maybe I'll start keeping a spreadsheet if you don't already have one you're working from.
Lessee, female tennis star, demagogue, inventor, fascist, Broadway songwriter, terrorist... so far one in each category.
This was about Yankee's criteria-based Presidents' ranking. Not Tim's stream-of-consciousness rankings, for which no reliable criteria have been reverse-engineered.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Yankee, I think when you're done it will be interesting to look at rankings sorted within each category as well as the overall.

Maybe I'll start keeping a spreadsheet if you don't already have one you're working from.
Lessee, female tennis star, demagogue, inventor, fascist, Broadway songwriter, terrorist... so far one in each category.
This was about Yankee's criteria-based Presidents' ranking. Not Tim's stream-of-consciousness rankings, for which no reliable criteria have been reverse-engineered.
:topcat: Ack, apologies.

 
And I can't vote for Uncle Pennybags because Ivan K is always ripping me.
https://screen.yahoo.com/mr-monopoly-000000931.html
Holy crap. Did the guy on the left lilt his way to death in that sketch?
Haha. That's Damon Wayans. His son is performing at Funny Bones tomorrow night in Manchester.
Wow. That's him? Good work, Damon. Funny how he almost had his bofa in the dude's mouth at one point.

Sheesh.

 
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John Adams (1797-1801)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

John Adams would get a 10 in this category if you included all the time before and after he was President. In fact, he would get the top spot. There was no better man in our history that John Adams in making an argument with passion and facts and fighting for it until people agreed. His power of persuasion led the Continental Congress and led to the Lee Resolution. His arguments were the main arguments that Thomas Jefferson penned in the Declaration of Independence. And his speaking on the floor led to the vote for independence. But we aren’t scoring that here.

As President, John wasn’t that great in this department. He was a firebrand for sure and fought for what he believed in. He fought for what he believed in when it cost him dearly. It cost him reelection. But the people didn’t follow him in that fight obviously. He didn’t work well with Congress because he tried to stay above the party fighting that Washington managed to stay above, and he had even worse problems with his cabinet – which was Washington’s to start.

But, he also wrote numerous public letters during the XYZ affair that is referenced below. Those letters helped to shape the arguments during the quasi war with France and in that he gets good marks there. But John Adams was never someone that a group of people would follow through a brick wall – while President. Unfortunately for him, his 4 years in office don’t give him high marks here. I would submit that the history of this nation is better told through Adams’ words then Jefferson’s, yet Jefferson has the memorial. John’s greatest gift here though was trying to stand above the political infighting that was going on and while he tried to keep the country away from it, he lost reelection because of it.

War & Crisis

Like Washington, I submit again that his entire presidency was an exercise in crisis management. And that is because John Adams is the most unique leader in our history. Because he followed Washington. The greatest leader of a nation who helped build the nation and was respected by all stepped down and there was an election. The people, as defined at the time, had a say moreso than any probably thought possible. And Adams was chosen. Washington leaving was more important, but John’s election was just as important because it signaled the bloodless coup of democracy that we have enjoyed since 1797.

Upon taking office John’s main problem was France. He believed everything President Washington wrote in his Fairwell Address and he was not going to get involved in a foreign war. The country was split more and more with the war between France and England. And that split defined his entire time in office. It destroyed his relationship with Thomas Jefferson, it ultimately killed Alexander Hamilton and it eventually ended up with the War of 1812 that President Madison had to deal with.

But John remained as neutral as was humanly possible. Called a monarch and a lover of Britain he tried desperately to handle the whole mess without going to war. He made a huge massive blunder in forming an army with Hamilton’s persistent demands to deal with English and French issues in the territories, but when he did it, Jefferson and his side were appalled as they saw it as an armed beginning to war with France, not Britain. He chose George Washington to lead the force so that it appeared to have greatness behind it. But as Jefferson feared, Washington was too ill to really be its leader and he left the daily operation of the army up to his closest advisor – Alexander Hamilton. That was the final straw with Jefferson and much of his side of the country.

But at the same time Adams was working to stay out of any armed conflict and France eventually helped him. A peace negotiation was to take place with, France sent emissaries to America to begin talks. Jefferson wanted those talks to lead to an alliance. Adams wanted peace with France and Britain. Before the talks could begin, Adams ended them and the French delegation left, blaming Adams’ love of Britain. Jeffersonians went ballistic. And in an act of pure genius, Adams allowed to be published the documents that told the true story. Now know as the XYZ Affair, Adams showed the people of the country that France demanded massive amounts of bribes before they would even talk to America and showed themselves to be criminals of the highest order, bent not on their war with Britain but the diplomatic take over of the United States. The Jeffersonians were shamed and the public backed Adams after the event. This resulted in the Quasi-War with France, not all out war with Britain. A massive sea change in policy in the country took place.

The intervention into domestic politics by France led the Federalists in Congress to write the Alien and Sedition Acts. Adams signed them and he gets a hit for that as we will see later. But in the times, against we see later, they seemed to be very necessary. Not wanting the Quasi War to begin all out war, and against every single person in his own party, John commissioned a peace delegation to France to speak with Napoleon. That delegation eventually made peace with France. However, Jefferson took that time to make public opinion again change, the people feared all out war with France and the ultimate result was that voting for Adams and Jefferson in the election started before word came back that peace with France was ultimately achieved. Adams was right, Jefferson was wrong, and the people would have likely supported Adams again had word of that peace come weeks earlier. But it didn’t, and John lost reelection to Jefferson.

He also had to deal with a minor revolt – again in Pennsylvania – when he raised taxes for foreign policy issues. Friey’s Rebellion was quickly put down when they attacked federal tax collectors and the leaders were tried, convicted and sentenced to death. Adams, always the diplomat, pardoned all of them before he left office.

Economy

When it comes to the economy, Adams basically let Congress deal with it and all of domestic policy. He supported and continued Washington’s policies for the most part. With that, and given the fact that the economy was being tugged on by France and England for his full 4 years, the economy was relatively strong during his time in office. He allowed taxes and duties to be raised to deal with a new army and the build up of a real navy, and had to deal with the rebellion referenced above. But overall, the system remained relatively strong.

Foreign Policy

Like Washington, John gets a 10 here. Fighting against public opinion, his rivals and his friends, John stayed the course to support Washington’s prayer for ultimate neutrality and he stuck to that, to his own eventual defeat, and history must judge his acts as President as they relate to England and France and pretty impressive. The fact that he was probably our greatest diplomat in history (the only close second would be his own son) certainly helped his ability to deal with this. John managed to not have America become a conduit for France and England and kept the peace that lasted until 1812.

Executive Skills/Congress

He doesn’t get great marks here. Congress respected and disliked him at the same time. He let them run the country on a daily basis focusing on foreign affairs, so if you want to give him high marks for delegation, you have to give him low marks for actual leadership. He allowed them to write and then he signed the Alien and Sedition Acts. He tried to balance Hamilton and Jefferson as best he could but it resulted in the cabinet hating him and him not really using them, and Congress bemoaning the fact that he was no Washington. It’s ironic that the greatest Continental Congressmen really didn’t work all that well with the Congress he fought for so hard.

Justice/Rights

Slavery and Indian rights went really nowhere under John. His signing of the Alien and Sedition Acts is a negative. The prosecutions that occurred because of it are dark marks on our civil rights ledger as a nation. But I think you can temper this with the context of the times discussed below. Still, if Washington gets a 5 here, Adams can do no better than a 4.

Context

He followed Washington. He tried to keep Hamilton and Jefferson together. He tried to stay neutral and stay away from England and France. He raised an army when they gave him no choice but focused on a navy for defense instead of doing what he really didn’t want to do and start all out war. As a measure of the times, he was the perfect successor to Washington because he had the same independent streak that Washington had, and had Jefferson followed instead of John, we would have been at war with England quicker than 1812, would have hitched our star to Napoleon and would have likely suffered an awful fate as a nation. John Adams tried to stand above his times when he was President the way he did when he was a leader of the revolution. But the same zeal and power he had in the 1770’s and 1780’s had no place in the 1790’s when he tried to lead the nation he helped build.

He is one of our greatest leaders when you look at his entire body of work. I could argue and have that he is our greatest. But as President, he suffers too many hits to be considered one of the truly greats there. Still, for his time, for his life, for his exercise of the power of the president, he was a truly good man who suffered personal flaws that ended up most likely costing him what he always wanted which was to be remembered and honored the way that we remember and honor Thomas Jefferson.

Conclusion

John gets a 7 for persuasion, a 10 for crisis, a 5 for the economy, a 10 for foreign policy, a 4 for civil rights and a 10 for context. Raw score of 46. Almost 20 points lower than Washington to start out. One of the truly great untold stories of our history is what would have happened had he beat Jefferson. In their letters together as their lives were closing they both came to realize that they were a part of the same coin. Heads and tails. Our history isn’t written without both of them together. As a President, John wasn’t the greatest of the greats, but as a leader we needed at the time even if we didn’t know it, he was everything you probably want – stubborn to a fault to be sure, but always focused on the most important thing as he saw it. In as much as every nation needs a George Washington, every nation also deserves a John Adams. And we are a better people a better nation, because of him.
46 isn't right. You have seven categories, but only gave Adams a score in six of them. He needs some more points from Executive Skills/Congress.

 
In any event, Limbaugh is someone I considered, but didn't make the cut. The main reason is that I decided that Rush reflects the opinions of his fans rather than shapes them. I don't think he's been a huge influence on our culture (though he certainly has on talk radio, as has Howard Stern.) But talk radio itself isn't as important a venue as some of the broader ones that I am focusing on.

 
In any event, Limbaugh is someone I considered, but didn't make the cut. The main reason is that I decided that Rush reflects the opinions of his fans rather than shapes them.
Just shut up Tim. It was just recently you wrote that ALL of Rush's listeners think ALL Muslims are terrorists because of listening to him.

 
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