timschochet
Footballguy
That song wasn't ABOUT him, he was singing about somebody else. (Maybe even the person I'm thinking of, who knows?)
Seems to be an obsession with Darryl Hall around here...
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timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (2 Viewers)
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Seems to be an obsession with Darryl Hall around here...
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Walt effing Disney!
Oh yeah, oh yeah oh yeah.
Oh yeah, oh yeah oh yeah.
timschochet
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Oh,yeah you're out of order she's out of order this whole place is out of order!
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
timschochet
Footballguy
Yes
timschochet
Footballguy
Henry was born in Washington, but he's spent a good chuck of his life in my hometown of Huntington Beach. Of course I rank him higher than Danzig.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
27. Walt Disney
It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
For those of you who guessed this from the clue, well done! (And for those of you who guessed Darryl Hall or the inventor of the wonder bra, or silicon implants, good guesses, keep them coming!)
It's arguable that no person has ever had a greater impact on entertainment than Walt Disney. I don't really need to list his many accomplishments here; nearly 50 years after his death, his name remains on the lips of every child in this country, and perhaps in the entire world.
As we move up the rankings here, some of these write-ups are going to get a lot shorter, simply because I do a disservice to the greatness of these people by attempting to write about them. However, I can always add some random thoughts, such as, here are the very best movies by Walt Disney, IMO:
1. Pinnochio
2. Lady and the Tramp
3. 101 Dalmations
4. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
5. Bambi
5. Fantasia
6. Mary Poppins
7. The Jungle Book
8. 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
9. Sleeping Beauty
10. Song of the South
11. Cinderella
12. Treasure Island
13. Peter Pan
14. Dumbo
15. Alice In Wonderland
16. Old Yeller
17. The Aristocats
18. The Sword In the Stone
19. The Absent Minded Professor
20. The Computer That Wore Tennis Shoes
Up Next: Perhaps the first American to call himself a "citizen"...
It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
For those of you who guessed this from the clue, well done! (And for those of you who guessed Darryl Hall or the inventor of the wonder bra, or silicon implants, good guesses, keep them coming!)
It's arguable that no person has ever had a greater impact on entertainment than Walt Disney. I don't really need to list his many accomplishments here; nearly 50 years after his death, his name remains on the lips of every child in this country, and perhaps in the entire world.
As we move up the rankings here, some of these write-ups are going to get a lot shorter, simply because I do a disservice to the greatness of these people by attempting to write about them. However, I can always add some random thoughts, such as, here are the very best movies by Walt Disney, IMO:
1. Pinnochio
2. Lady and the Tramp
3. 101 Dalmations
4. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
5. Bambi
5. Fantasia
6. Mary Poppins
7. The Jungle Book
8. 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
9. Sleeping Beauty
10. Song of the South
11. Cinderella
12. Treasure Island
13. Peter Pan
14. Dumbo
15. Alice In Wonderland
16. Old Yeller
17. The Aristocats
18. The Sword In the Stone
19. The Absent Minded Professor
20. The Computer That Wore Tennis Shoes
Up Next: Perhaps the first American to call himself a "citizen"...
timschochet
Footballguy
26. Thomas Paine
My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
America's first great atheist. Even though he never called himself one (the term didn't exist in those days). Paine hated religion; he believed that morality came from reason, and that the Enlightenment was the product of man's mind. A great crusader, Paine's pamphlet Common Sense was more influential than any other writing in terms of making Americans desire a separation from England. Of course, that was not his only important work: Rights of Man and the Age of Reason were just as key in terms of influencing the direction of the United States.
Fans of revolutionary American history are going to be upset with me because I have left out a few very prominent figures from that period: in particular: Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Paul Revere, John Jay, and Patrick Henry. I gave each one of these sincere consideration but in the end was unable to find a spot for any of them. Fire away, Yankee!
But Tom Paine in my estimation is above the rest, critical to American history, and has to be there.
Up next: Our greatest general..
My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
America's first great atheist. Even though he never called himself one (the term didn't exist in those days). Paine hated religion; he believed that morality came from reason, and that the Enlightenment was the product of man's mind. A great crusader, Paine's pamphlet Common Sense was more influential than any other writing in terms of making Americans desire a separation from England. Of course, that was not his only important work: Rights of Man and the Age of Reason were just as key in terms of influencing the direction of the United States.
Fans of revolutionary American history are going to be upset with me because I have left out a few very prominent figures from that period: in particular: Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Paul Revere, John Jay, and Patrick Henry. I gave each one of these sincere consideration but in the end was unable to find a spot for any of them. Fire away, Yankee!
But Tom Paine in my estimation is above the rest, critical to American history, and has to be there.
Up next: Our greatest general..
timschochet
Footballguy
Honestly, one of the easier selections. From the moment he won the Presidential election in 2008, he became an automatic for anyone's list of greatest Americans. The only question is the exact ranking.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
General Lee. I didn't know you were including cars.
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm not. but the actual General Lee has already made the list, coming in at #58.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I'm ok with Thomas Paine being ahead of Sam Adams, John Hancock, Paul Revere, John Jay and Patrick Henry.
What I'm not ok with is people like Billy Jean King, Madonna and Stephen King being ahead of them. You've fallen too many times for the flashy style over the hard working substance of American history in this ranking. Your fault though isn't your list - it's your opinion. Your fault was the name you game it. These aren't the 100 Greatest Americans. They can't be. The moniker of great precludes many of the people you have put on this list and requires you to add people that you have specifically said you aren't adding. Had you entitled this tim's favorite Americans - cool. Most influential Americans - I guess (because pop culture is influential). But you didn't do that. You went to greatest. And in the entire history of our republic you have so far come with 75 people in that list and without looking back through it, I would venture a guess that 40 of them don't belong in a truly honest assessment of the greatest people in our history.
But then I fall back into my objections to your list of Presidents. You have given no clear definition of how you are coming up with greatness. Had there been some kind of basic premise to start with maybe this list would flow a little better. But unlike the President list, I have no interest in making my own here. 44 of them was enough. I had a blast doing it but it was a ton of work. Still, I wish you had some kind of list of attributes that we could measure all of these people with against each other.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
No - see again - your words are being used wrong. He instantly became one of the most influential Americans. But greatest?
timschochet
Footballguy
OK, we're just back to our original disagreement. I didn't list attributes because "greatest" is not an objective term. Great can be heroic. Great can be influential. Great can be noble. Great can mean important. THERE IS NO SET RULE. I can't give you a definition because I don't have one. Yet I think it is possible to measure them against each other. In selecting the pop culture icons, I didn't do it because "pop culture" is important: I chose the ones I did because they had a tremendous impact on American society. Why is Billie Jean King "greater" than Patrick Henry? Both are most famous for specific events. But Billie Jean King's specific event had IMO a bigger impact on society than did Patrick Henry's specific event.
I want to add too that this is not a list of my favorite Americans. There are a lot of people I really dislike on this list (Joe McCarthy, Huey Long, Charles Lindbergh, etc.) and a few that I don't really care much about either.
I want to add too that this is not a list of my favorite Americans. There are a lot of people I really dislike on this list (Joe McCarthy, Huey Long, Charles Lindbergh, etc.) and a few that I don't really care much about either.
timschochet
Footballguy
Obama's not influential. Did he influence other black men to run for President?
Obama was the first black American to be President of the United States. First at anything is one of the many definitions used for greatness.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Billie Jean King beating a 50 year old fat white guy at a game no one cares about is more important to American history than Patrick Henry?
It must be a California thing. That's it. Something in the water. Or lack thereof.
timschochet
Footballguy
I said "bigger impact on society." I did NOT say "more important to American history." This is not a list of "100 persons most important to American history." I think that's the list you want, but this list is not that. While there are similarities (and especially I would think in the top 25 which I'm about to get to) that would be a very different list, with few pop culture references at all.
msommer
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I disagree that it had a bigger impact on society too.
American society exists because of people like Patrick Henry. His Virginia Stamp Act Resolutions was one of the first parlamentarian shots in the revoultionary war that drastically altered American society forever. His work in Virginia led directly to the first Continential Congress. Another shot in what altered the shape of human history, not just American society. You could make a good argument that what Patrick Henry represented in American history and its effects on American society were exponentially more important that Billy Jean King. Patrick Henry was a leader who brought about the end of totalitarian monarchy in colonies that eventually won their independence based in part on his early leadership. The very fact that there is an American society is a plus in Jenry's column that King can't overcome.
King's exhibition match garnered more interest in woman's tennis. Not women's rights. The match was in 1973. But then the societal movement towards more women's rights was already well underway. The event was for tennis, not women. And it was not an important part of the women's rights movement except for bakground and example, not leadership and fundamental change.
The ultimate true result of King's tennis match was the formation of the WTA and the popularity of Serena Williams. The ultimate true result of Henry's political acts was the fomenting of a revolution that changed America, its society, its history and ultimately world history. No matter what definition of great you use, and while we are still working under the guise of all of this being your opinion, the fact of the matter is that you are just wrong on this one. She doesn't get the "Greatest" designation in the face of Patrick Henry or I would bet a good 50-100 other people that could have been on the list in front of her.
dparker713
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I didn't come up with Billie Jean King out of thin air. She is on many lists, including Time Magazine and CNN, as among the most important Americans of all time. Your statement "it was not an important part of the woman's rights movement" is not shared by historians of that movement, who for the most part regard her match against Riggs as one of the pivotal moments in the history of that movement. King redefined sexual roles in America, far more than Susan B Anthony ever did. Anthony is a much greater American and far more important to American history (hence my much higher ranking), but King's one event is more important to American societal change.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
timschochet
Footballguy
I screwed that up. The Time list was most important 100 people of the 20tg century. CNN was an essay not a list, which was written last year when she received the Presidential Medal of Freedom. So I was incorrect. I stand by the gist of my argument however.Yankee23Fan said:
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Yeah i figured. The reason for the list is important. But you know that.
timschochet
Footballguy
25. Ulysses S. Grant
No terms other than unconditional surrender. I propose to move immediately upon your works.
The quote, of course, was from the Civil War battle of Fort Donelson, which made Grant famous. My ranking of Grant as our greatest general ever is a bit controversial, as some historians have a few other guys ranked higher. Let's take a look at the ones who made my list:
#81 Stonewall Jackson
#79 Winfield Scott
#68 George C. Patton
#63 William T. Sherman
#58 Robert E. Lee
#47 Dwight Eisenhower
#37 Douglas MacArthur
#25 Ulysses S. Grant
Now obviously there is one guy missing here, who has yet to be ranked, but like Eisenhower he will be ranked for other achievements beyond military skills, and we'll get to him later. Minus that guy, Eisenhower, and Sitting Bull (who is also ranked not primarily for military skills), the rest of these guys are ranked mainly for their generalship. That includes Grant, though he was certainly an underrated President of the United States. And I think the order is an accurate ranking of where they belong.
I want to add here that it's irrelevant to me that Jackson, Lee, and Sitting Bull led armies not of the United States; they were still American, and thus get equal consideration on this list. I should also add that in making this list I considered a few other important military figures in American history, particularly Anthony Wayne, Tecumsah, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Phillip Sheridan, George Armstrong Custer, Blackjack Pershing, and George Marshall. All of these are crucial to our history, none quite made the top 100.
Back to Grant: like Bedford Forrest and Erwin Rommel, Grant is one of those examples of the cream rising to the top during a long war. He was virtually unknown at the start of the Civil War; by the end of it he was America's foremost general. If Grant had been born during any country's medieval history, it's likely he would have risen to become a great dictator (much like Hideyoshi in Japan, who was a peasant with brilliant innate military skills.) Lincoln famously said that he loved Grant because "he fights", and that was certainly true, separating him from more reluctant northern Generals like McClellan and Halleck, but Grant also fought well. His capture of Vicksburg was probably the most brilliant strategic military victory in American history.
He had flaws of course. He was, at times, a drunk. He was also anti-Semitic. And confronted with Lee's innovative trench defenses (which were a forerunner of World War I) Grant ruthlessly sacrificed thousands of men without gain at the Wilderness, Cold Harbor, and Petersburg. Nonetheless, I think he is our one indispensable military figure. We win the revolutionary war without our first President (perhaps; I know that's debatable.) We win the Mexican War without Scott. We win the Civil War without Sherman. We win World War II without Patton or Eisenhower. I get the history would be very different in all of these cases, but the ultimate outcome is the same.
BUT- given the brilliance of Lee, Jackson, Forrest, and a few others, despite the leadership of our President at the time, despite the northern advantages in manpower, supplies, economics, etc- I don't believe the north wins the Civil War without Ulysses S. Grant. Now, if anyone wants to have this discussion, I would be delighted to argue this in some detail, and demonstrate the battles that are lost without his leadership, and how those would have decisively turned the tide in favor of the Confederacy.
Up next: Our greatest journalist...
No terms other than unconditional surrender. I propose to move immediately upon your works.
The quote, of course, was from the Civil War battle of Fort Donelson, which made Grant famous. My ranking of Grant as our greatest general ever is a bit controversial, as some historians have a few other guys ranked higher. Let's take a look at the ones who made my list:
#81 Stonewall Jackson
#79 Winfield Scott
#68 George C. Patton
#63 William T. Sherman
#58 Robert E. Lee
#47 Dwight Eisenhower
#37 Douglas MacArthur
#25 Ulysses S. Grant
Now obviously there is one guy missing here, who has yet to be ranked, but like Eisenhower he will be ranked for other achievements beyond military skills, and we'll get to him later. Minus that guy, Eisenhower, and Sitting Bull (who is also ranked not primarily for military skills), the rest of these guys are ranked mainly for their generalship. That includes Grant, though he was certainly an underrated President of the United States. And I think the order is an accurate ranking of where they belong.
I want to add here that it's irrelevant to me that Jackson, Lee, and Sitting Bull led armies not of the United States; they were still American, and thus get equal consideration on this list. I should also add that in making this list I considered a few other important military figures in American history, particularly Anthony Wayne, Tecumsah, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Phillip Sheridan, George Armstrong Custer, Blackjack Pershing, and George Marshall. All of these are crucial to our history, none quite made the top 100.
Back to Grant: like Bedford Forrest and Erwin Rommel, Grant is one of those examples of the cream rising to the top during a long war. He was virtually unknown at the start of the Civil War; by the end of it he was America's foremost general. If Grant had been born during any country's medieval history, it's likely he would have risen to become a great dictator (much like Hideyoshi in Japan, who was a peasant with brilliant innate military skills.) Lincoln famously said that he loved Grant because "he fights", and that was certainly true, separating him from more reluctant northern Generals like McClellan and Halleck, but Grant also fought well. His capture of Vicksburg was probably the most brilliant strategic military victory in American history.
He had flaws of course. He was, at times, a drunk. He was also anti-Semitic. And confronted with Lee's innovative trench defenses (which were a forerunner of World War I) Grant ruthlessly sacrificed thousands of men without gain at the Wilderness, Cold Harbor, and Petersburg. Nonetheless, I think he is our one indispensable military figure. We win the revolutionary war without our first President (perhaps; I know that's debatable.) We win the Mexican War without Scott. We win the Civil War without Sherman. We win World War II without Patton or Eisenhower. I get the history would be very different in all of these cases, but the ultimate outcome is the same.
BUT- given the brilliance of Lee, Jackson, Forrest, and a few others, despite the leadership of our President at the time, despite the northern advantages in manpower, supplies, economics, etc- I don't believe the north wins the Civil War without Ulysses S. Grant. Now, if anyone wants to have this discussion, I would be delighted to argue this in some detail, and demonstrate the battles that are lost without his leadership, and how those would have decisively turned the tide in favor of the Confederacy.
Up next: Our greatest journalist...
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
Was not expecting Drudge or Harvey Levin to make your list. You're always full of surprises.
timschochet
Footballguy
Never heard of him.
timschochet
Footballguy
Both have certainly had an impact. I would say a negative one myself.
whoknew
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Balko is another guy I've never heard of. Greenwald is a classic muckraker. If I were to go that route, I'd probably go for Lincoln Steffens, who was arguably the greatest of the muckrakers. I actually considered Steffens on my original list (which had about 300 persons on it) but quickly eliminated him as not important enough.
timschochet
Footballguy
Oops. I wrote Steffens, but I meant HL Mencken; sorry. Both were under consideration.
whoknew
Footballguy
I highly recommend reading Radley Balko (WaPo blog, twitter, book). As far as I can tell, he's the leading expert/investigative journalist/muckraker on police abuse, decaying of civil liberties and the militarization of the police. I know you don't lend that stuff much credence, but reading about it may change your mind.
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
24. Edward R. Murrow
We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
Most people who are too young to remember Ed Murrow (and that would include me, BTW), if they know him at all, think of him as the CBS TV journalist who stood up to Senator Joe McCarthy, and this is especially true after the recent film Good Night and Good Luck, which was Murrow's famous closing line after every broadcast. And this was certainly historically important. Edward R. Murrow revolutionized television news broadcasting, paving the way for Walter Cronkite and the modern television anchorman. His influence and power was tremendous.
But all of that, while extremely important, is not the main reason he is ranked so high among our greatest Americans, and why he was our greatest journalist. His most dramatic significance actually came before television. Murrow was the first and foremost radio correspondent beginning in the late 1930s, and he broadcast from England during the Battle of Britain. His broadcasts during this time, which always began with "This Is London" and described the bombs falling, had a greater impact than any other factor in terms of turning America away from isolationism and towards helping England during the Second World War. It made Murrow world famous, probably the single most famous newsman ever. Winston Churchill considered him "worth 50 divisions" in the battle against the Nazis.
Murrow demonstrated how mass communication can transform public opinion much more powerfully than any other single source, certainly than any politician.
Up next: finally, a UCLA guy!!
We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
Most people who are too young to remember Ed Murrow (and that would include me, BTW), if they know him at all, think of him as the CBS TV journalist who stood up to Senator Joe McCarthy, and this is especially true after the recent film Good Night and Good Luck, which was Murrow's famous closing line after every broadcast. And this was certainly historically important. Edward R. Murrow revolutionized television news broadcasting, paving the way for Walter Cronkite and the modern television anchorman. His influence and power was tremendous.
But all of that, while extremely important, is not the main reason he is ranked so high among our greatest Americans, and why he was our greatest journalist. His most dramatic significance actually came before television. Murrow was the first and foremost radio correspondent beginning in the late 1930s, and he broadcast from England during the Battle of Britain. His broadcasts during this time, which always began with "This Is London" and described the bombs falling, had a greater impact than any other factor in terms of turning America away from isolationism and towards helping England during the Second World War. It made Murrow world famous, probably the single most famous newsman ever. Winston Churchill considered him "worth 50 divisions" in the battle against the Nazis.
Murrow demonstrated how mass communication can transform public opinion much more powerfully than any other single source, certainly than any politician.
Up next: finally, a UCLA guy!!
timschochet
Footballguy
John Wooden is already on the list. But I was speaking of somebody who graduated from Westwood. Wooden was a Purdue Boilermaker.
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