Tlaib wants $20.00 an hour minimum wage. (1 Viewer)

[IvanKaramazov]

Can you elaborate on what is meant by "help"?

Income support for working families, like the Earned Income Tax Credit for example.

 

[stlrams]

I'm own a pre-school that my daughter runs for me.  Payroll expenses are 75% of my total expenses.  My state recently passed a $15 minimum wage which impacts my business expenses by 25%.  So tuition is going up on average $2,000-$3,000 per year per student since I'm unable to cut staff as state dictates pupil to staffing ratios. .  This will put extreme pressure on my business and we. along with many pre-schools, might not survive as parents will find alternatives.  Some of you will point out that people need a living wage but the vast majority of our staff are made up of high school kids, kids working there way thru college, a retired grandma that loves kids, etc    $20 a hour would definitely put us out of business,

 

[Captain Cranks]

I'm own a pre-school that my daughter runs for me.  Payroll expenses are 75% of my total expenses.  My state recently passed a $15 minimum wage which impacts my business expenses by 25%.  So tuition is going up on average $2,000-$3,000 per year per student since I'm unable to cut staff as state dictates pupil to staffing ratios. .  This will put extreme pressure on my business and we. along with many pre-schools, might not survive as parents will find alternatives.  Some of you will point out that people need a living wage but the vast majority of our staff are made up of high school kids, kids working there way thru college, a retired grandma that loves kids, etc    $20 a hour would definitely put us out of business,

Do you think there should be a minimum wage at all?

 

[stlrams]

Do you think there should be a minimum wage at all?

Yes - otherwise I believe employers will take advantage of employees especially in a high unemployment scenario.  But it needs to be set at something reasonable thus minimizing  unintended consequences.    

 

[parasaurolophus]

42k a year for a mconalds cashier. 

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[stlrams]

I'm own a pre-school that my daughter runs for me.  Payroll expenses are 75% of my total expenses.  My state recently passed a $15 minimum wage which impacts my business expenses by 25%.  So tuition is going up on average $2,000-$3,000 per year per student since I'm unable to cut staff as state dictates pupil to staffing ratios. .  This will put extreme pressure on my business and we. along with many pre-schools, might not survive as parents will find alternatives.  Some of you will point out that people need a living wage but the vast majority of our staff are made up of high school kids, kids working there way thru college, a retired grandma that loves kids, etc    $20 a hour would definitely put us out of business,

I'll share a story from when I testified at the state capital regarding the minimum wage.  I tried to find a parking spot and drove around for a good 30 minutes before finally parking illegally since my time to testify was coming up.  Once in the building I couldn't enter the hearing room since it was over capacity.  I asked what are all the people were doing here since only so many can testify and was told the unions bus people and fill up the room so no one else can provide a consenting opinion.  Upon leaving the capital I saw a state capital police were ticketing a car and asked if he could cut me a break.  He said no and that if I wanted to find parking next time I would need to get there around 5 in the morning since unions have people that take all the public parking spots around the capital to deter people from testifying.  In addition, the head of labor committee works for the union and was wearing a fight for $15 pin.  Now I know who really controls what happens at my state level which I'm sure similar to other states.         

 

[identikit]

I'll share a story from when I testified at the state capital regarding the minimum wage.  I tried to find a parking spot and drove around for a good 30 minutes before finally parking illegally since my time to testify was coming up.  Once in the building I couldn't enter the hearing room since it was over capacity.  I asked what are all the people were doing here since only so many can testify and was told the unions bus people and fill up the room so no one else can provide a consenting opinion.  Upon leaving the capital I saw a state capital police were ticketing a car and asked if he could cut me a break.  He said no and that if I wanted to find parking next time I would need to get there around 5 in the morning since unions have people that take all the public parking spots around the capital to deter people from testifying.  In addition, the head of labor committee works for the union and was wearing a fight for $15 pin.  Now I know who really controls what happens at my state level which I'm sure similar to other states.         

Wow.

Damned swamp.

 

[Godsbrother]

Tlaib wants $20.00 an hour minimum wage?    I think that is too much for our lawmakers.

 

[NCCommish]

To be clear, I don't care much about the current minimum wage.  It doesn't apply to many workers and has very little effect on most labor markets, good or bad.  A $15 minimum wage would be a much bigger deal in parts of the country that have a relatively low wage scale, though.

Raising the minimum wage to 12 an hour would directly affect 13% of the workforce. So yeah around 2% of the workforce actually are at the minimum wage but the reality is a lot of workers are very close and even a raise to less than 15 would affect literally millions of people.

 

[NCCommish]

If wages had kept pace with productivity the minimum wage would already be 21.00 an hour.

 

[siffoin]

$20 an hour?  That is ridiculous.  Hard pass.

What does it cost for a person to live?  Shouldn't a person who works an honest job 40 hours per week be able to sustain?  And what does that cost?

Of course it's different in different places, but I put together a quick budget for a single person and what it would cost to live in an average city...in this case I picked Boise, ID (because I live here) - it's not San Francisco high nor rural Alabama low...

1. Rent = $1100 - single bedroom apartment. (average in Boise is actually $1133/mo...so it's not like this is an above avg place.  Of course you could share a place and save $200ish)
   
2. Utilities = $150 - Gas, Electric, Water, Cable, Trash 
   
3. Car= $270 - This is the cost of a 2010 Used Honda Accord from the local Car Max.
   
4. Car Insurance - $100
   
5. Gas- $140
   
6. Health Insurance - $250 - subsidized
   
7. Food - $450 (that's $15 per day)
   
8. Clothing - $100
   
9. Phone - $50
   
10. Entertainment - $300
    
11. Taxes - $100 (this is likely way too low)
    
12. Charity - $100
    
13. Savings/Investments - $300
    

That comes to $3410 per month needed to sustain - or $21.32/hr working 40 hrs per week.  What's ridiculous is that we think people can sustain on half that...and then blame them for any of their financial failures moving forward.

 

[identikit]

$300 a month for entertainment...

Is that in 1 dollar bills?

 

[NCCommish]

By the way I do agree with those saying the wage should be regionally targeted. Living costs in the northeast corridor are a lot different than in rural Mississippi. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

I'll share a story from when I testified at the state capital regarding the minimum wage.  I tried to find a parking spot and drove around for a good 30 minutes before finally parking illegally since my time to testify was coming up.  Once in the building I couldn't enter the hearing room since it was over capacity.  I asked what are all the people were doing here since only so many can testify and was told the unions bus people and fill up the room so no one else can provide a consenting opinion.  Upon leaving the capital I saw a state capital police were ticketing a car and asked if he could cut me a break.  He said no and that if I wanted to find parking next time I would need to get there around 5 in the morning since unions have people that take all the public parking spots around the capital to deter people from testifying.  In addition, the head of labor committee works for the union and was wearing a fight for $15 pin.  Now I know who really controls what happens at my state level which I'm sure similar to other states.         

That's pretty terrible and undemocratic.

 

[Gawain]

What does it cost for a person to live?  Shouldn't a person who works an honest job 40 hours per week be able to sustain?  And what does that cost?

Of course it's different in different places, but I put together a quick budget for a single person and what it would cost to live in an average city...in this case I picked Boise, ID (because I live here) - it's not San Francisco high nor rural Alabama low...

1. Rent = $1100 - single bedroom apartment. (average in Boise is actually $1133/mo...so it's not like this is an above avg place.  Of course you could share a place and save $200ish)
   
2. Utilities = $150 - Gas, Electric, Water, Cable, Trash 
   
3. Car= $270 - This is the cost of a 2010 Used Honda Accord from the local Car Max.
   
4. Car Insurance - $100
   
5. Gas- $140
   
6. Health Insurance - $250 - subsidized
   
7. Food - $450 (that's $15 per day)
   
8. Clothing - $100
   
9. Phone - $50
   
10. Entertainment - $300
    
11. Taxes - $100 (this is likely way too low)
    
12. Charity - $100
    
13. Savings/Investments - $300
    

That comes to $3410 per month needed to sustain - or $21.32/hr working 40 hrs per week.  What's ridiculous is that we think people can sustain on half that...and then blame them for any of their financial failures moving forward.

You do realize that 50% of people have to be below the median, don't you?

 

[siffoin]

You do realize that 50% of people have to be below the median, don't you?

I'm not sure I understand your question.  The median of what specifically are you referring to?

 

[NREC34]

Boise sounds pretty cheap on utilities 

 

[identikit]

Boise sounds pretty cheap on utilities 

That's so they can go out on the town.

 

[Gawain]

You do realize that 50% of people have to be below the median, don't you?

I'm not sure I understand your question.  The median of what specifically are you referring to?

You're taking someone who makes less than the median and stating they can't afford a median lifestyle. Of course they can't. A simple search shows many apartments available for under $700 Boise under $700 Your argument is stronger if you show someone can't afford to live at all. Stating someone who works 40 hours a week should be spending $3,240 a year on a car payment guaranteed is nonsense.

If all you do is bring everyone up to the $$ amount you calculate as median, the median lifestyle will increase in cost and people still won't have what you want. 

 

[dkp993]

To be clear, I don't care much about the current minimum wage.  It doesn't apply to many workers and has very little effect on most labor markets, good or bad.  A $15 minimum wage would be a much bigger deal in parts of the country that have a relatively low wage scale, though.

This is simply not true.  Almost the entire food and beverage service industry is built upon it.  That’s a Trillion dollar industry with millions of people.  

 

[siffoin]

That's so they can go out on the town.

It might be a little low on the utilities. 

I'm not sure what the issue is with $300/month in entertainment expense.  That $75/week...and is for things like sporting events, movies, eating out, going on a date, going skiing in the winter.  This is not extravagant living here.

 

[Gawain]

This is simply not true.  Almost the entire food and beverage service industry is built upon it.  That’s a Trillion dollar industry with millions of people.  

Ivan is likely working off info, such as what's presented in this chart. These figures don't cover tipped employees, just hourly.

 

[identikit]

It might be a little low on the utilities. 

I'm not sure what the issue is with $300/month in entertainment expense.  That $75/week...and is for things like sporting events, movies, eating out, going on a date, going skiing in the winter.  This is not extravagant living here.

When you're trying to show that the minimum wage needs to be higher, it is.

 

[whoknew]

"People should be able to support a family by working at McDonalds" is an argument for providing help for working families, not requiring firms to pay high school kids more for their part-time summer job.

Forgive my economic ignorance, but lets say the market rate for a cashier at McDonalds is $10 per hour. But it cost $20 per hour to support a family in the area. 

What's the argument for having the gov't pay that additional $10 per hour versus having McDonalds do it? I'm like 90% there on this argument, but can you explain it in full?

Thanks.

 

[siffoin]

When you're trying to show that the minimum wage needs to be higher, it is.

What I'm trying to show is my belief that for a person working an honest job 40 hours a week - they should be able to sustain a lifestyle of modesty and without (much) assistance...and the cost of that in Boise is approx $3400+/month. A one bedroom apartment; a 10 year old car; freedom to go to a movie once in a while; paying their bills and taxes; and saving a little every month for retirement seems pretty reasonable.  There's nothing I have that's lavish.  This is the the price of living in an average US city.  

Shouldn't the goal be for all people to work and be able to self-sustain themselves by doing so?   

 

[Jayrod]

It might be a little low on the utilities. 

I'm not sure what the issue is with $300/month in entertainment expense.  That $75/week...and is for things like sporting events, movies, eating out, going on a date, going skiing in the winter.  This is not extravagant living here.

Not counting the internet (which we need for many other things), our entertainment budget for our family of 4 is about $50/week.

 

[siffoin]

Not counting the internet (which we need for many other things), our entertainment budget for our family of 4 is about $50/week.

Fine.  You guys win.  Our hypothetical guy is not allowed to ever have entertainment opportunity.  No movies, no dates, no dining out, no sporting events, no gym, no beer, no nothing.  And that lowers the monthly cost from $3400 down to $3100 or $19.38 working a 40 hour week.  Imagine how much he'd save living in a box under the interstate.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Forgive my economic ignorance, but lets say the market rate for a cashier at McDonalds is $10 per hour. But it cost $20 per hour to support a family in the area. 

What's the argument for having the gov't pay that additional $10 per hour versus having McDonalds do it? I'm like 90% there on this argument, but can you explain it in full?

Thanks.

Telling firms that they have to pay $20 per hour affects a lot more people than just heads-of-households.  It also results in firms paying $20/hr to high school kids who would have worked for(and whose labor is probably worth) $10/hr instead, which results in some combination of job losses and higher prices.

If we want to help the working poor, there are ways to do it that don't cause this sort of labor market distortion.  Milton Friedman, for example, argued for a negative income tax.  That was the model that inspired the Earned Income Tax Credit.  A Basic Guaranteed Income is a similar policy.  These policies have issues of their own, but as a general principle it's more efficient just to hand people money than to try to backwards-engineer the same outcome by messing around with wages and prices.

 

[identikit]

Fine.  You guys win.  Our hypothetical guy is not allowed to ever have entertainment opportunity.  No movies, no dates, no dining out, no sporting events, no gym, no beer, no nothing.  And that lowers the monthly cost from $3400 down to $3100 or $19.38 working a 40 hour week.  Imagine how much he'd save living in a box under the interstate.

 

[Gawain]

Forgive my economic ignorance, but lets say the market rate for a cashier at McDonalds is $10 per hour. But it cost $20 per hour to support a family in the area. 

What's the argument for having the gov't pay that additional $10 per hour versus having McDonalds do it? I'm like 90% there on this argument, but can you explain it in full?

Thanks.

Not to speak for Ivan, but there are many workers who work, but don't have to support a family/themselves. This could be a high school kid, a retiree who is supplementing social security or a house wife who wants to work for 20 hours a week while the kids are in school. Making their labor cost more hurts the employer more than tax policy that selectively benefits individuals who have to work to support themselves and/or a family.

As an example I have ten employees, five single mothers and five old ladies that want Bingo money. They all work 25 hours a week (250 total a month) and I pay $10 an hour. My labor costs are $2500 a week. Minimum wage is now $20 and my labor cost doubles to $5000 a week. Half that goes to the Bingo Hall. If we instead give the single moms a Head of Household tax credit of $10K, my labor rate stays the same. Even if I had to fund the credit out of pocket, my labor rates only went up 50%. Just raising minimum wage casts too wide a net.

 

[Gawain]

Fine.  You guys win.  Our hypothetical guy is not allowed to ever have entertainment opportunity.  No movies, no dates, no dining out, no sporting events, no gym, no beer, no nothing.  And that lowers the monthly cost from $3400 down to $3100 or $19.38 working a 40 hour week.  Imagine how much he'd save living in a box under the interstate.

Now put him in a $700 apartment and have him use public transportation.

 

[Shula-holic]

Best economy ever!

It is getting better in certain circles, but some of the small town business is gone never to come back.  The modern economy and businesses like Amazon have put all the local stores out of business.  That's not a left or right problem or fault, just now the way  of the world.  No matter how good our economy gets, those jobs are gone.

 

[proteus126]

What I'm trying to show is my belief that for a person working an honest job 40 hours a week - they should be able to sustain a lifestyle of modesty and without (much) assistance...and the cost of that in Boise is approx $3400+/month. A one bedroom apartment; a 10 year old car; freedom to go to a movie once in a while; paying their bills and taxes; and saving a little every month for retirement seems pretty reasonable.  There's nothing I have that's lavish.  This is the the price of living in an average US city.  

Shouldn't the goal be for all people to work and be able to self-sustain themselves by doing so?   

They might want to hold off on having kids, though.

 

[Da Guru]

I always loved the food business from working in restaurants in HS..  If this ever came to be when I retire I would love to make pizzas at a restaurant  for 20 dollars an hour a couple nights a week.

 

[dkp993]

I always loved the food business from working in restaurants in HS..  If this ever came to be when I retire I would love to make pizzas at a restaurant  for 20 dollars an hour a couple nights a week.

Having owned and operated a restaurant that had a wood-fired show oven where we  specialized in pizzas, it’s not as fun as you remember.  Lol.  

 

[Da Guru]

Having owned and operated a restaurant that had a wood-fired show oven where we  specialized in pizzas, it’s not as fun as you remember.  Lol.  

You are probably correct..I worked in an Italian Restaurant and it was not conveyor belts.  2 big pizza ovens upper and lower.  At times on a busy Friday night I would have 12 pies going at one time to monitor. Busy all night with dine in, carry out and delivery. Rotating, poking crust, burning my forearms when I touched the oven, I loved it.  The time flew by.

 

[Mister CIA]

I think we have a pizza math sighting.

 

[GoBirds]

Tlaib wants to skip over 15 and go right to 20.00.  

Why just $20.....let’s do $30!

 

[GROOT]

The gift that keeps on giving. 

 

[The General]

Gotta save that money to pay the CEO!

 

[Max Power]

Find the happy medium. Put minimum wage at 10.00 an hour, heavily discount childcare, healthcare and public transportation. 

I've survived on 12.50 an hour with a family of 3. It wasnt a long term solution job and I've relocated twice for better opportunities. Minimum wage is meant to get by.  I wasnt living large, but I wasnt struggling as the only person bringing in money.

 

[Da Guru]

Gotta save that money to pay the CEO!

How many small business have CEOs?  This what was talked about at the COC meetings.  Not talking McDonalds, CVS or Taco Bell but small business in Detroit that have one owner and 1-30 employees that is competing against chains.  If you increase their unskilled labor costs by 30-40% they can`t compete.

I am all for anyone making whatever the market will pay but will jobs and hours be cut in the process?

 

[rustycolts]

Why just $20.....let’s do $30!

I would unretire if they did that.

 

[The General]

How many small business have CEOs?  This what was talked about at the COC meetings.  Not talking McDonalds, CVS or Taco Bell but small business in Detroit that have one owner and 1-30 employees that is competing against chains.  If you increase their unskilled labor costs by 30-40% they can`t compete.

I am all for anyone making whatever the market will pay but will jobs and hours be cut in the process?

I was poking fun at the imaginary McDonalds person everyone was taking about. McDonalds CEO makes like 2000x what the average employee makes. That seems broken to me. 

I don’t expect they are getting $20 bucks an hour.

Living wages is a discussion worth having however. That’s what I think when I hear these first term members of Congress throwing out ideas instead of freaking out that this lady is trying to ruin the country.

 

[zoonation]

What does it cost for a person to live?  Shouldn't a person who works an honest job 40 hours per week be able to sustain?  And what does that cost?

Of course it's different in different places, but I put together a quick budget for a single person and what it would cost to live in an average city...in this case I picked Boise, ID (because I live here) - it's not San Francisco high nor rural Alabama low...

1. Rent = $1100 - single bedroom apartment. (average in Boise is actually $1133/mo...so it's not like this is an above avg place.  Of course you could share a place and save $200ish)
   
2. Utilities = $150 - Gas, Electric, Water, Cable, Trash 
   
3. Car= $270 - This is the cost of a 2010 Used Honda Accord from the local Car Max.
   
4. Car Insurance - $100
   
5. Gas- $140
   
6. Health Insurance - $250 - subsidized
   
7. Food - $450 (that's $15 per day)
   
8. Clothing - $100
   
9. Phone - $50
   
10. Entertainment - $300
    
11. Taxes - $100 (this is likely way too low)
    
12. Charity - $100
    
13. Savings/Investments - $300
    

That comes to $3410 per month needed to sustain - or $21.32/hr working 40 hrs per week.  What's ridiculous is that we think people can sustain on half that...and then blame them for any of their financial failures moving forward.

I don’t disagree that the cost of living has outpaced non-skilled working wages.  But you raise minimum wage to $20/hr and you kill small business.  Stick a fork in it.  

There needs to be adjustment at the state and municipal level.  High school kids punching in Big Mac orders shouldn’t earn $160 a shift.  Same as the mom and pop who relies on local support to take on Ronald.  

As is the case with most things, the answer is not simple.  Paying every worker $20/hr will just create more unemployment.  Some will benefit, a lot will not. Because they won’t get hired.  Because there won’t be a job. 

 

[Gawain]

I was poking fun at the imaginary McDonalds person everyone was taking about. McDonalds CEO makes like 2000x what the average employee makes. That seems broken to me. 

I don’t expect they are getting $20 bucks an hour.

Living wages is a discussion worth having however. That’s what I think when I hear these first term members of Congress throwing out ideas instead of freaking out that this lady is trying to ruin the country.

The right answer here (IMO) is to raise taxes on the one guy making 50M, not raise the wages of the 10,000 making 20K. One option doesn't hurt the business. One option does.

 

[The General]

The right answer here (IMO) is to raise taxes on the one guy making 50M, not raise the wages of the 10,000 making 20K. One option doesn't hurt the business. One option does.

Perhaps.

This is exactly the discussion that occurs when new ideas are brought up. It's a good thing.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I was poking fun at the imaginary McDonalds person everyone was taking about. McDonalds CEO makes like 2000x what the average employee makes. That seems broken to me. 

I don’t expect they are getting $20 bucks an hour.

Living wages is a discussion worth having however. That’s what I think when I hear these first term members of Congress throwing out ideas instead of freaking out that this lady is trying to ruin the country.

You know like 80% of mcdonalds are franchises right? 

 

[The General]

You know like 80% of mcdonalds are franchises right? 

We love our Mcdonalds in here! That is a good point you made. Perhaps McDonalds could lower their franchise fees to help subsidize. Complicated issue.

My town slowly raised the minimum wage to $15. It seems to have mixed effects, but all in all it seems positive. Variety of things occurred stuff like places reducing hours, but people were making about the same because of the larger hourly wage. Working less on the deep fryer but making the same amount is a win in my book. There was less worker turnover in these positions IIRC from what I read, I'm guessing the boss likes that. All kinds of factors to take into consideration so results are still being evaluated. Who knows if this works in other areas as all cities have unique challenges and advantages.

To continue our all McDonalds all the time talk one thing that didn't seem to happen was their restaurants closing down here. You can still get some crappy burger or chicken pieces.

It does seem there's not enough moderately well paying jobs to go around with how we are doing things now. With 60% of people with essentially no savings. Going to be a great place to live when a third of the nation is eating catfood when they are 55 and unemployable.

 

[Sand]

Do we really want a society where a person working 40 hours a week, even if it's at McDonald's, can't come home and take care of their family because they need to work second and third jobs to pay the rent?  That's not a characteristic of the "greatest nation on earth", in my opinion.  

And yet we insist on importing huge amounts of competition for those low wage jobs and then wonder why the cost of living has passed them by.