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Tom Brady MVP? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter PatsFanCT
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Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
How would Manning be doing on the Patriots team in place of Brady right now?
How would Brady be doing on the Broncos team in place of Manning right now?
We'll never know, but it does put things in perspective when you really look at what MVP should stand for, being the most valuable person on your team and not putting up the best stats. Even passer rating suffers when you look at the level of experience of the players being targeted. As Gisele once said, “You [have] to catch the ball when you’re supposed to catch the ball. My husband cannot ####### throw the ball and catch the ball at the same time. I can’t believe they dropped the ball so many times.”
karmarooster
Footballguy
Is this how we determine MVPs? Is it the "doing the most with the least" award? Also, it is not the MVPOYT (most valuable person on your team award). It's the most valuable player. As a shortcut for that, sometimes we can simply call it "the best." Gisele has nothing to contribute unless it's the "hottest wife award" (but Tannehill might get some votes).
Speaking of injuries and stats, I could see the Wilfork injury leading to more points against the pats and a need for Brady to throw more (and a downgrade to Ridley and Blount).
It doesn't take some crazy stretch to imagine what Tom Brady might have done if he'd been surrounded by elite talent on offense. Remember 2007? It also doesn't take some crazy stretch to imagine what Peyton Manning would do if he'd been surrounded by garbage talent at all positions. Remember 2010?Jojo the circus boy said:
As for MVP meaning "most valuable person on your team"... these Denver Broncos are playing without three of their five best players (Von Miller, Champ Bailey, and Ryan Clady), and they're still beating the living snot out of everyone. Denver scored 90 points in the first two weeks, then lost Ryan Clady for the season and... scored 89 points in the next two weeks. Ryan Clady is one of the best LTs in the league, a perennial All Pro who just signed a 5-year, $57.5 million contract, and Denver replaced him without even blinking. If Demaryius Thomas went down, Denver would just go more to Welker, Julius, and Decker- Andre Caldwell has looked fantastic as a fill-in on the limited snaps Demaryius and Decker have missed. No Von, no Bailey, no problem. No other teams can keep up, anyway. If Peyton Manning went down, though, what do you think this offense would look like?
Regardless of what criteria you want to use, through four weeks, there's no other possible choice except for Peyton Manning. The crazy thing is Manning's stats don't even come close to telling the whole story. He got three first downs yesterday simply by using the hard count to draw the defense offsides. Manning leads the NFL in number of passes dropped and percentage of passes dropped. I've never seen a quarterback executing at the level that Peyton Manning is on right now. Manning is a 4-time league MVP, could easily have added a fifth last year, and yet this season so far stands as by far the best of his career. The guy is as far ahead of the rest of the field as J.J. Watt was on defense last year.
You're crazy. Tom Brady is as far ahead of the field in the race for Hottest Wife as Peyton Manning is in the race for MVP. Gisele gets paid more for being hot than Tom Brady gets paid for being good at football.karmarooster said:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
If there were a 4 game MVP, Manning would win and no one else would even get a single vote.
However, there is no 4 game MVP, so we can only go with Manning as the leading candidate and see how the rest of the season plays out. If Manning sets passing records, goes undefeated, or earns the top seed he will win. Certainly no one is playing better than DEN right now, but as we've seen over the years, strange things happen and things can change.
After tonight, there will still be 5 undefeated teams. While there are not a lot of clear secondary MVP candidates, if those teams keep winning and the Broncos slip up a couple of times, other candidates may enter the picture. Manning could get dinged and miss a few games and that could also change the landscape.
Bottom line, it's too soon to start anointing an MVP, but at the moment it would not be Tom Brady.
However, there is no 4 game MVP, so we can only go with Manning as the leading candidate and see how the rest of the season plays out. If Manning sets passing records, goes undefeated, or earns the top seed he will win. Certainly no one is playing better than DEN right now, but as we've seen over the years, strange things happen and things can change.
After tonight, there will still be 5 undefeated teams. While there are not a lot of clear secondary MVP candidates, if those teams keep winning and the Broncos slip up a couple of times, other candidates may enter the picture. Manning could get dinged and miss a few games and that could also change the landscape.
Bottom line, it's too soon to start anointing an MVP, but at the moment it would not be Tom Brady.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Depends. Which guy is Tom Brady?karmarooster said:
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
1) You determine MVP via awesomeness. Awesomeness is hard to quantify, so just pick whichever player you think is most awesome.
2) Then you determine the parameters that help your player look most awesome.
3) Then you award MVP based on step 2.
2) Then you determine the parameters that help your player look most awesome.
3) Then you award MVP based on step 2.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
I see you are voting for PWBSC Award (Player With Best Supporting Cast), two can play that game. Just because the player with the most awesome stats usually wins MVP does not mean that's the intention of the award.karmarooster said:
At least when you look at it like "doing the most with the least" award the award actually has some merit as opposed to awarding it to a QB playing easy mode that is surrounded by a bunch of Pro Bowlers to throw to.
Man of Zen
Footballguy
Thing 1: the Pats' 4-0 start gives Belicheat a nice leg up on the race to C.O.T.Y. way more than it paves the way for Brady to MVP.
Thing 2: Manning is probably in runaway first right now, but it's a meaningless runaway first, because his regular season will be defined by what he does over the stretch that has the Chiefs 2x, and the Pats and the Texans on the road, with only the much-improved Titans as a "breather." If he comes out of that run, Clady-less, still smelling like a rose, he'll have earned yet another regular season MVP.
Thing 2: Manning is probably in runaway first right now, but it's a meaningless runaway first, because his regular season will be defined by what he does over the stretch that has the Chiefs 2x, and the Pats and the Texans on the road, with only the much-improved Titans as a "breather." If he comes out of that run, Clady-less, still smelling like a rose, he'll have earned yet another regular season MVP.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Ummm...actually, what you are trying to argue and what the OP asked are not at all related. He asked who the MVP was - not whether or not we need to look at the intention of the award or the criteria used - just who it would be. It aint close to being Brady - and the fact that guys like Alex Smith, Jake Locker and Ryan Tannehill have better QB ratings (and not "a bunch of Pro Bowlers to throw to" either) seems to make your point rather irrelevant anyway.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Aren't related? You must have missed the OP's main question: So, what is more impressive?
Look at who Denver has played, look at Manning's supporting cast, it's no contest.
A lot of QB Rating has to do with the cast of receivers the QB throws to, I thought this point was pretty clearly made.
You may not think these targets are elite, but compared to the rookies Brady gets to throw to they are superstars...
ASmith: Jamaal Charles, Avery, Bowe
JLocker: Nate Washington, Britt, Kendall Wright
RTannehill: Mike Wallace, Hartline, Gibson
TBrady: Edelman +3 WR rookies +1 TE rookie... yeah that is a real fair comparison!!
Also you are pointing out the fact that none of those guys above are pro-bowlers, those QB's also aren't putting up Peyton Manning numbers, so it only reinforces the point I made.
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
jvdesigns2002 said:
denver has beaten
2-2 ravens, who just got beat by buffalo with manuel
0-4 giants
1-3 raiders
1-3 philly
for a grand total of 4-12
but it's new england that hasn't played anyone
Breesisdaman
Footballguy
Pft Brees has been doing this for years. look what happens when his receivers try to go somewhere else. Meachum to San Diego for example., Great quarter backs dont need elite Wr's around them.PatsFanCT said:
Shutout
Footballguy
As of today, I see no possible scenario preventing Peyton Manning from being the league MVP this year. He is that far beyond anything going on in the NFL.
Most of the league is playing football and some are playing football exceptionally well, but Manning is planting the seeds, growing the crop, preparing the meal, serving it up, cleaning the plates, and taking out the trash.
What's the line I heard last night? If Mannng tells you its Easter, you better start looking for eggs.
Most of the league is playing football and some are playing football exceptionally well, but Manning is planting the seeds, growing the crop, preparing the meal, serving it up, cleaning the plates, and taking out the trash.
What's the line I heard last night? If Mannng tells you its Easter, you better start looking for eggs.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
The Alex Smith comparison is a fair one, so far. The Chiefs are undefeated because they've played a soft schedule with a great defense. The same is true of the Patriots. If Tom Brady weren't named Tom Brady people wouldn't think what he's "done" this year was anything special.
Sure, he has little help around him on offense (aside from an elite offensive line, which is a BIG deal), but it's not hard to put up 3 points against the Bucs, 13 against the Jets, or 21 against the Bills, which is all they needed to do to win those games. In fact, every team that has played the Bucs, Jets, or Bills this year has met those numbers.
So what we really have here is a win over a mediocre 1-3 Atlanta team as their only real standout win of the year. As has been pointed out, in that game Aqib Talib once again saved them at the end after Brady tried to give it away with an untimely fumbled snap.
Realistically, without even looking at the offense the Pats should be a 3 or 4 win team right now just behind the play of their defense. Taking a 3 or 4 win team to 4 wins is not exactly MVP worthy. As I've said before in this thread, I think if there were a vote right now Brady would finish second for MVP on his own team, behind Talib.
Sure, he has little help around him on offense (aside from an elite offensive line, which is a BIG deal), but it's not hard to put up 3 points against the Bucs, 13 against the Jets, or 21 against the Bills, which is all they needed to do to win those games. In fact, every team that has played the Bucs, Jets, or Bills this year has met those numbers.
So what we really have here is a win over a mediocre 1-3 Atlanta team as their only real standout win of the year. As has been pointed out, in that game Aqib Talib once again saved them at the end after Brady tried to give it away with an untimely fumbled snap.
Realistically, without even looking at the offense the Pats should be a 3 or 4 win team right now just behind the play of their defense. Taking a 3 or 4 win team to 4 wins is not exactly MVP worthy. As I've said before in this thread, I think if there were a vote right now Brady would finish second for MVP on his own team, behind Talib.
drummer
Footballguy
This illustrates in part how poor the passer/QB rating stands as a statistic. I never use it to compare QB's, or weigh their performance.
Both Manning and Brady make players around them better. Elite QB's do that. You may find a non elite QB post a passer rating similar or slightly better, but said QB could also be poor on 3rd down, not throw to deep targets, etc.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Phlash
Footballguy
I don't think Brady is the MVP but its laughable at how hard people try to diminish what the team has done.
They're 4-0 for the first time since 2007. The Patriots have consistently been slow starters, losing at the beginning of the season and turning it on halfway through the year. This year, they've been developing at a tremendous pace that is unprecedented for what they've done in the past. The rookie receivers are already looking like 8 year veterans, and it's week 3 of their first season.
The story is the same every year. The Patriots will win any way they can regardless of the level of competition presented to them. The Bills are much better than you think they are, and the Jets are solid as well, and they're especially good defensively. Tampa, for all their problems, still have a number of excellent playmakers on the defensive & offensive side of the ball. And the Patriots don't care - they come in, shut down who they have to, and pull out the victory.
To call their team average is disingenuous when all they do is win. Every year. This team is much more talented than people recognize.
They're 4-0 for the first time since 2007. The Patriots have consistently been slow starters, losing at the beginning of the season and turning it on halfway through the year. This year, they've been developing at a tremendous pace that is unprecedented for what they've done in the past. The rookie receivers are already looking like 8 year veterans, and it's week 3 of their first season.
The story is the same every year. The Patriots will win any way they can regardless of the level of competition presented to them. The Bills are much better than you think they are, and the Jets are solid as well, and they're especially good defensively. Tampa, for all their problems, still have a number of excellent playmakers on the defensive & offensive side of the ball. And the Patriots don't care - they come in, shut down who they have to, and pull out the victory.
To call their team average is disingenuous when all they do is win. Every year. This team is much more talented than people recognize.
I'm a Pats guy. I grew up 10 minutes form the stadium. So although I think Brady is the man, I know that right now, Peyton is the clear MVP. That being said, I think it's laughable that people are trying to diminish the Pats' 4-0 start. Especially those citing schedule. The Broncos haven't played anyone good either. Their best opponent has been the Ravens, who just lost to Buffalo (who NE beat). Neither team has played another good team yet.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
The difference is that no one is claiming Peyton should be MVP because the Broncos are 4-0, but everyone that says Brady should be an MVP candidate is using the Pats 4-0 record as the primary reason.
drummer
Footballguy
I watched that game. I think in the game thread here you posted how all the Smith haters came out while watching it. Some of those who aren't 49er fans thought it painful too.
But even past that, it still doesn't make Smith an MVP candidate. Sorry.
jurb26
Footballguy
I posted nothing in the game thread, not a single post. Sorry to burst you're bubble. I also didn't say Smith was an MVP candidate. Wrong again...I'm simply giving an opinion on Cossel and how his word is taken as gospel around here. He's flat wrong sometimes and this is one of those times IMO.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Don't forget about Hoyer.
2-0 with a worse team than NE and has beaten a better opponent than NE has. Averaging more yards per game and has a higher completion %.
HOYER FOR MVP!
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ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Pats play a weak schedule....no way is he even close to MVP.
drummer
Footballguy
Well, I watched the game and posted in the game thread, so you're wrong there as well.
Against the PHI defense in the past 4 games, 3 QB's have thrown TDs against it:
RG3: 2 TDs, 2 INTs
Rivers: 3 TD's, 0 INTs
Manning: 4 TDs, 0 INTs
Smith: 0 TDs, 0 INTs
It's not whether you take Cosell as a sage, it's whether he is right or wrong. You can look up how many deep targets Smith attempted in that game too.
bostonfred
Footballguy
There is a precedent for someone getting an mvp with exactly those numbers. In 2008, the nfl mvp threw for 4002 yards, 28 tds and 12 ints. That qb was peyton manning.karmarooster said:
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Given that Geno Smith, Cam Newton, Joe Flacco, Josh Freeman, EJ Manuel, Jake Locker, and Carson Palmer have all manged to put up more points than the Pats D allowed against the Jets/Bills/Bucs when playing those same opponents, I would say the Pats would be somewhere between 3-1 and 4-0 depending on how the game against the Falcons went.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
While I agree Talib had an outstanding game and deserves equal praise for his contributions for Sunday night's win, I think you are missing the point comparing Brady to Alex Smith. Alex Smith isn't throwing to 4 rookies + Edelman, at least he has veterans that he can trust to run their routes and make their catches without still trying to adjust at the NFL level. There's no question without the Pats defense they would not be in the position they are now, by the same token if Manning was not throwing to Thomas, Decker, and Welker he likely would not be putting up the numbers everyone is drooling over in this thread.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
This would have more merit if the points the Pats were required to score to win those games weren't so easy for every quarterback that has played those same teams to acquire. The Jets aren't exactly loaded with any offensive playmakers, and they don't have anywhere near the O-line the Pats do. So if rookie second round Geno Smith was able to put up 18 points against the Bucs and 27 against the Bills with terrible players around him and no offensive line, why should we be impressed that Brady was able to put up slightly fewer points against those same teams with young players and a great o-line?
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Now you are comparing Brady with Geno Smith that is carrying a 68.6 passer rating?
You keep ignoring the weapons Brady has to throw to "to get those points", I think you'd have a very short list of QB's that would be 4-0 playing with the cast that Brady has had to work with in those games. This is the whole point of the thread that people are ignoring. You can hate on Brady all you want, it doesn't diminish what he has accomplished with what little he has had to work with. I'm done arguing with you on this topic since it is going nowhere.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Come on you are better then that.
So Manning beating a horrible 0 - 4 Giants, a terrible 1 - 3 Philly team, 1 - 3 Terrell Pyror led team, and a Baltimore team that just lost to the same E.J. Manuel led Bills team.
You play who is in front of you, you can't do anymore.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Then why isn't hoodie still coaching in Cleveland and was under 5 - 13 before Brady in New England?
Seriously people less trolling.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Can we lock this thread please, it is a crazy thought to think anyone other then Manning would win the MVP right now and the trolls are in full force. Nothing good can come out of this.
That year, Peyton Manning ranked in the top 5 in most major passing categories, ranked 1st in QBR, had 4 fourth-quarter comebacks, and led the league with 6 game-winning drives. This year, those numbers barely rank Tom Brady in the top half of the league, and Brady's been pretty much the opposite of clutch as he couldn't score a single touchdown in the second half vs. Buffalo and had to rely on his defense pitching a shutout, couldn't get a first down to put the game away vs. the Jets and had to rely on his defense getting 3 takeaways in the 4th quarter, and he fumbled the snap giving Atlanta a chance to complete a huge comeback and had to rely on his defense getting a 4th down stop at the goal line.
Also, 2008 was kind of a weak year for MVP candidates. Adrian Peterson won the Bert Bell player of the year award with 1800 yards and 10 TDs, an extremely pedestrian season for an RB to win awards with. At quarterback, Tom Brady missed the season. Drew Brees threw for 5,000 yards, but he played for the 8-8 Saints. Kurt Warner was probably the second best QB that year, but he played for the 9-7 Cardinals. Jay Cutler had a big season for the 8-8 Broncos, Rodgers had a big season for the 6-10 Packers, and Rivers had a big season for the 8-8 Chargers. Peyton's season was clearly the best season by any player whose team had double-digit wins, which got him the award by default. If I recall correctly, the MVP field was so weak that year that CHAD PENNINGTON received votes.
If Tom Brady was doing what he was doing in a weaker passing era where all of the other good players played for bad teams, he'd probably be in the MVP discussion. As it stands, I hear there's some guy out west whose team has won every game in a blowout, who leads the league in every single meaningful statistical category, who is likely about to earn his third "player of the week" award so far this young season, and who has already set or tied at least a half dozen NFL records through the first four weeks.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Peyton is on a mission and will break the TD record
Manning MVP
Manning MVP
bostonfred
Footballguy
You're joking, right? Could you have seriously named the qb who had the most tds through the first three weeks of a seson before manning broke that huge nfl record? If so, how come you never brought it up when discussing brady? And the player of the week award for week one of the regular season? If that's the new benchmark for qb performance, then I encourage you to tell me who won it in week 1 laast year. Do you even know?
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