Jewell
Footballguy
We saw Demaryius Thomas' and Eric Decker's production with Tebow. It paled in comparison to their production with Manning. What makes you think that the Broncos might be able to win the #1 seed with Osweiller?
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Tom Brady MVP? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter PatsFanCT
- Start date
jurb26
Footballguy
Why are we comparing a guy who isn't in the league anymore with a legit back up?
Jewell
Footballguy
And how do we know for sure that Osweiller is a legit back-up? Never mind a back-up capable of leading the Broncos to the #1 seed.
jurb26
Footballguy
What are you talking about? Is Osweiller not the current back up in Den? Did I miss something? Ummm, the fact that he holds that job makes him exactly that. A legit back up. I never said anything about what would happen if he was forced to play. I swear people would argue with a stone around here....
Run It Up
Footballguy
Because what little I've seen from Osweiller and what I know about Welker, and have seen from Julius I'm pretty comfortable saying the 2013 Broncos might be the best team to have ever played together - and they have an absolute cake schedule.
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Run It Up
Footballguy
His preseason performance lead me to believe he was at least twice as good as Tebow.
Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
I don't know who the greatest team ever assembled is, but I'd bet they don't/didn't have a worse OL and worse defense than the 2013 Patriots like the Broncos do.
Ironic that the people saying stats are overrated ignore these parts of a team and exclusively obsess over WRs like that position is the be all, end all of a team.
Ironic that the people saying stats are overrated ignore these parts of a team and exclusively obsess over WRs like that position is the be all, end all of a team.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Whos ignoring what now? The Denver defense is just as dominant as the Pats - their Oline obviously isn't as strong as the Pats, but it isn't that far apart.
wilson2112
Footballguy
Here's the thing. Both QBs do a great job of elevating the talent they have around them. Brady has elevated his WRs to play above the rookie level that they are. The difference is that Manning has elevated his talent more. Granted, he has played with Decker and DT for all of one year more than Brady has had with his receivers, but Manning elevated these receivers into Pro Bowl talent. He didn't inherit this talent (Welker aside), he created it. On top of that this is the first opportunity that he has had with an significant time with J Thomas. He certainly wasn't Pro Bowl talent before this year. And Manning is blowing everyone away with this team. Osweiller is no better than Curtis Painter. Osweiller would not lead this team to a #1 seed.
Jewell
Footballguy
Settle down, junior.There are plenty of back-ups in the NFL who aren't legit, and we only discover that when they are thrown in to start and we see them either sink or swim. My point was that we haven't see enough of Osweiller in real game action to yet know whether he'll sink or swim as the starter.
pizzatyme
Footballguy
Let's let him win a playoff game first.
Run It Up
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Decker and DT were both in the league for 2 full seasons before they got Peyton Manning as their quarterback, that is 100 times different then getting 2 rookies. Peyton didn't elevate them to pro bowl level. You could see DT was going to be a pro bowler the year before. The problem was he missed some games and had Tebow throwing too him, Decker was also going to be a borderline pro bowler with anyone other then Tebow throwing too him. I am not saying Peyton didn't make them better but the writing was on the wall the year before Peyton got there.
Julius Thomas played in 9 games in 2 years before this season. No one knew what he was.
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wilson2112
Footballguy
Decker had 50 receptions in his two years before Manning. Thomas had 54 before Manning. J Thomas had 1 catch for 5 yards in his two years in the NFL. Where's the Pro Bowl talent? Manning comes in and turned them into Pro Bowlers. Brady might do the same with his rookies with 1.25 seasons under their belts together. I'd love to see it. But what Manning has done, and is doing this year, is head over heels far more impressive than what Brady is doing.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Meanwhile, you are implying that you would take one player over another because of a TEAM stat (wins and losses).
Run It Up
Footballguy
Its clear that this thread should either be retitled or locked. The title is clearly inflammatory and the discussion has devolved to the Brady vs Manning discussions of ye olden days.
This might be the first time I've ever heard someone say that Manning is making due with his offensive weapons, a QB that has notoriously been flush with offensive weapons his entire career, and is currently surrounded by the best trio of receivers Ive ever seen on the same team.
As others have suggested, through 4 weeks Brees should obviously be in consideration and IMO Rivers should as well.
This might be the first time I've ever heard someone say that Manning is making due with his offensive weapons, a QB that has notoriously been flush with offensive weapons his entire career, and is currently surrounded by the best trio of receivers Ive ever seen on the same team.
As others have suggested, through 4 weeks Brees should obviously be in consideration and IMO Rivers should as well.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
While true, no one has more effect on that stat then a quarterback since he touches the ball on almost every play. Plus it is the most important stat.
wilson2112
Footballguy
Are you suggesting that the talent that Manning has had an over abundance of throughout his career has actually elevated Manning's talent more so than the other way around? Interesting way to look at it. For me I see one common denominator in all that talent and it is Manning. He takes good receivers and makes them great. You can easily say the same for Brady throughout his career. And what's so bad about a good old Manning v Brady discussion? You have the easiest argument: 3 rings! Not to diminish what Brady has done this year, but Manning has been far more impressive in 2013.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
So maybe watch a game instead of quoting stats. Their first year in the league they barely played, they were behind Marshall, Royal, and Lloyd that year, that year Lloyd led the league in yards, Marshall had over 1000 yards. Second year both of them showed promise, but there were games Tebow was completing all of 8 passes, Tebow started 12 games that year and had just over 1700 yards passing. Please tell me how you can tell if anyone is going to be a good receiver when the quarterback is averaging under 150 yards a game and about 10 completed passes a game. Before you go complaining about my stats you should know that I am using the stats to back up what I saw. You obviously didn't watch them play at all if you had you would have seen their talent and Tebow holding that offense back.
I agree Manning is out performing Brady this year, but please stop with the whole he made Decker and DT, those guys were going to be good with an average quarterback.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
It doesn't hurt, Manning would have been good with almost any receiver. He was helped by Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark. The same way Peyton helped make their careers better.
wilson2112
Footballguy
I wasn't complaining about your stats. In fact I agree with what they spell out. DT was a first round pick with first round expectations. Decker was a third round pick with average expectations. I don't think that anyone would argue with you that Tebow was terrible (yes, I do watch the games) but I certainly didn't hear anyone talking about how terrible Tebow was while being surrounded by Pro Bowl talent. Bring in Manning and all of a sudden he is surrounded by Pro Bowlers? Throughout his entire career? C'mon. What do you have against Manning? So he's a choker in the playoffs. He still gets more out of his players than any other QB in the league.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I like Brady better, but Peyton is still one of the best too. I just hate how people say all the time how he made his receivers, and it isn't true. Wayne has proven this since Manning left, Harrison was proving it before Peyton got there. I watched Decker a lot that year with Tebow because I had him on my dynasty team. He was a lot better then his 3rd round pick. Even guys like Garcon have left and had success else where. You can't say that about many of the receivers that played with Brady. Branch was horrible when he left, Patton was nothing special, Brown wasn't either, what about Givens or Reche Caudwell? You know who Peyton has had his entire career for his top receiver Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, or DT. Brady has had Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Reche Caudwell, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, and Kenbrell Thompkins.
Run It Up
Footballguy
No, thats not what I'm saying, I'm saying I'm pretty confident this is the first time someone has seriously said that Peyton elevates his receivers, which is not only true its common knowledge - its the fact that the receivers hes always had have been better.
As far as rings go, rings are rings are rings, you ask 10 people who they think is better between Peyton or Brady and you'll pretty much get the 60/40 split between the two one way or another every time.
Peyton and Brady are both 4-0 right now. They both have solid Olines and well above average defenses. The margin of difference of their respective skill position players might be the biggest in all of the league.
wilson2112
Footballguy
Like I said earlier, both QBs have elevated their WRs to better than expected levels. Welker was traded within the division from Miami to NE, that's how little Miami thought of Welker. Playing with Brady elevated Welker's game to the point where he is talked about as perhaps the greatest slot receiver of all time. Randy Moss was elevated by Brady to one of the greatest seasons a wide receiver has ever had.
I am just trying to refute the argument that Manning's greatness in 4 games is because he is surrounded by Pro Bowl talent and that Brock Osweiller would have similar success. That is so far from the truth of things. Manning makes his receivers better, not the other way around. When Manning joined the Broncos last year (without having a preseason to work with the team, mind you) I think that the general consensus was that the Broncos had talented receivers, but certainly not Pro Bowl talent. DT had potential, but hadn't proved anything yet. Now all of a sudden he is "surrounded" by this Pro Bowl talent.
There's a reason why Manning is labeled a playoff choker and not Harrison, Wayne, DT, Decker or any of Manning's other receivers over the years. It's because he's the main cog in the machine.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
If Brady went down today and the Pats' defense kept playing as well as it has, the Pats would cakewalk into the playoffs.
The list of mediocre QBs that have made the playoffs with a good defense is extensive.
And I'll bring it up again, just because Pats fans seem to love ignoring it. The Geno Smith led Jets, who have even worse personnel on offense than the Pats, have outscored the Patriots against common opponents.
drummer
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
That was a different time, with the rules changes you have to be average on offense to make it in this league.
drummer
Footballguy
This thread has gone bat #### crazy.That was a different time, with the rules changes you have to be average on offense to make it in this league.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I will never give a quarterback that much credit. or blame. I seen DT and Decker play before Manning they were going to be very good to great receivers in the league as long as Tebow wasn't throwing them the ball. He was surrounded by Pro Bowl talent to start this year, Decker, Welker, and DT were all pro bowl caliber coming into this year. Just because Peyton Manning is throwing you the ball doesn't make you a great player, those guys worked hard and ran with the chance when they were given it.
The fact is we won't know what Brady would have done with these weapons because he isn't a Bronco and we won't know what Manning would have done in with the cast the Patriots have because he isn't a Patriot. We will see what DT and Decker will be like without Manning though. I promise they will still be Pro Bowl caliber players as long as it is an average quarterback throwing the ball.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Right, but again, that is a team stat.
Or was Christian Ponder better than Drew Brees last year because his team won three more games Brees' did?
Sure, having a great QB makes it much more likely that your team is gonna win more games over the long haul (see; the Patriots since 2001), just like having a crappy QB makes it much more likely that your team isn't gonna win a lot of games over the long haul (see: the Browns in the last 10+ years), but it is not always as simple as saying QB A's team won 12 games and QB B's team won 10 games, so A was better and/or more valuable than B.
wilson2112
Footballguy
Fair enough. I am will to give that much credit, and blame, to a QB. I guess I just don't get why, on one hand you are able to blame Tebow for poor performances from his WRs but not give Manning credit for good ones? Were Decker and DT not working as hard for Tebow as they are for Manning? I just don't see it as coincidence that Manning has had highly productive WRs throughout his career. Certainly all those WRs had talent, but Manning, I feel, elevated that talent and potential in those receivers.
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drummer
Footballguy
When you have an Elite QB, chances are the team around will fluctuate more with the talent around him due to the cap too. Sure an average QB can win with a solid team that has talent, but once that talent starts chipping away, then that average QB eventually will be replaced along with other average players.
drummer
Footballguy
Jewell
Footballguy
Considering that this was the OP question...
... it's amazing that you're now just noticing that this was a Manning vs. Brady thread from Post #1.
jurb26
Footballguy
Not the point. How much of this thread is about THIS season?
I think you have a point as far as Manning and his WRs putting up astronomically high numbers versus Brady moreso spreading the wealth which yields an end result where only he has stellar stats. However, Brady seems best ever in winning big games while Manning doesn't give that impression at all. If Manning does have impressive game winning type stats, I'd wonder if (in this lone stat) he's more of a compiler. I mean i can remember when some wondered if he'd be like Marino and never win a supe.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Gone? That implies that there was a time when this thread was not bat #### crazy.This thread has gone bat #### crazy.That was a different time, with the rules changes you have to be average on offense to make it in this league.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
See you are taking it past the extreme here. We all know there are other things that make a team good, or a quarterback good. I would like to think people are smarter than that, it is obvious that the Vikings won in spite of Ponder.
wilson2112
Footballguy
I would agree with you wholeheartedly. If asked to chose between either Brady's or Manning's careers I would choose Brady. On playoff and Super Bowl record alone.Bri said:
But the discussion is about Brady's MVP candidacy this year. It has been impressive what he has been able to do. And, yes, Manning has better receivers with higher floors and higher ceilings. But what I don't like is the fact that one of the arguments against Manning is that he is surrounded by Pro Bowl talent. DT had Pro Bowl potential being drafted in the first round. And Welker's resume speaks for itself. But I don't think that Decker or J Thomas had Pro Bowl potential before Manning became their QB. Tebow proved how a bad QB can make WRs look. Why doesn't Manning get credit for elevating his talent around him to Pro Bowl status? I hate going this "what if" route, but if Tony Romo were the QB of the Broncos do you think Decker and J Thomas would be talked about as Pro Bowl talent? I don't think so.
But that just me. I know there's lots of Manning haters out there. He will never get the credit from them that he deserves. I just have a hard time looking at Manning's career track record and saying that his success this year is coming mostly from the fact that he is surrounded by Pro Bowl talent. I think his WRs benefit more by having him as QB than the other way around.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Taking extremes is a good way to test rules. What's wrong with that?msudaisy26 said:
zoonation
Footballguy
Brady hasn't won the big one since 2004. Has lost the last two Superbowls he was in, one with a vastly superior undefeated team. He also has lost every other year in the playoffs. This idea that Brady always wins the big game is ridiculous. The guy hasn't won anything in 8 years, despite his team making the playoffs every single year during that time.Bri said:
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Not to mention some crucial late interceptions and absolutely horrid 4th quarter play in several of those losses.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Speaking of Tebow, serious question here. Do you believe Tebow should have been MVP in 2011?
I ask because, unlike Brady in 2013, we actually got to see that Bronco team without Tebow. They were 1-3 that season and had won just 5 of their last 20 games. They made ONE change, to Tebow, and suddenly were a playoff team. The defense statistically did not improve at all and remained in the bottom 3rd of the league (24th after Tebow took over). Also remember that, at the time, the Broncos "weapons" (DT and Decker) were considered amongst the worst in the league.
I'm guessing the obvious answer here is "no", which is kind of the point. I don't see any way you can claim Brady should be MVP in 2013 without also saying Tebow should have been MVP in 2011. You can't have it both ways.
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MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
I don't think it's fair to say Brady hasn't won a big game since 04. I consider all playoff games big games, maybe you don't. If you don't, then that's cool and we just use different standards. He beat down Houston last year. He spanked Tebow's miracle Broncos. He had a nearly perfect game against a very solid Jags team in the 18-1 run.
But it is true that Brady hasn't been the playoff maestro that he used to be. His first 12 playoff games - 5 INTS He last 12 playoff games - 17 INTS. That's such a disparity from the strength of his offense in the regular season. I think it goes to show how much the Pats leaned on Brady early in his career contrasted with the 2nd half of his career.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Its pretty simple because - without Tebow they were just as good or better than they were with Tebow, if this was 2012, and the Pats had a healthy Gronk, Hernandez, Lloyd and Welker, I think the Pats would put up a reasonable record with Mallet, likely win their division, maybe win a playoff game. But in 2013 with four rookies and all the elite talent on the offense now injured - absolutely not.
Also I guess my memory is fuzzy, I don't recall ever having heard that DT was ever considered not an elite talent.
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