Burning Sensation
Footballguy
I would take all the NE WR's over the Colts WR's, the Patriots WR's are all better, they have Superbowl rings to prove it.
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Tom Brady or Peyton Manning (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter cobalt_27
- Start date
cstu
Footballguy
Brady = MontanaManning = MarinoWho knows which one is "better"? Sometimes a player just ends up on the right team that fits his skills and has the team around him to get to the Superbowl. The one thing Brady has going for him, just like Montana, is clutch play. Neither Brady or Montana will ever be classified as a strong-armed QB, but they both make plays. Until Manning starts winning more playoffs games and gets his team to the SB then Brady will still have the advantage.This is coming from a long-time Bledoe fan so was pissed when he lost the job to Brady. I couldn't stand Brady for a long time, however, the history has shown that the Pats did the right thing and Brady was by far the better fit for the Pats offense. On the other hand, if you are asking me which player I want to build a team around, I'm going to say Manning. While Brady can run an offense better than almost anyone, I love the way Manning can dominate throwing the ball (I grew up watching Dan Fouts what can I say? 
)
)Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Yeh, that reminds me, Vinateri is another reason Brady has 2 rings, not every kicker can make 40+ yard field goals.Yeah Belichik's defense had so much to do with Brady's two Super Bowl winning drives..
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
:rotflmao:EDIT: I like the point, in fact. I'm on the Brady side (very slightly), but it's hard to argue that some people are trying to downplay everything Manning has done to the point of the absurd. Nice way to turn it around on them. 
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cobalt_27
Footballguy
Oh, they counted, alright. Six points apiece. With Vanderjagt's help, seven.What also counts are the TDs that sieve of a defense Indy has given up in recent yearsAnd not one that counts.. a shame, really.Manning has had 56 touchdown drives.Yeah Belichik's defense had so much to do with Brady's two Super Bowl winning drives..
valhallan
Footballguy
Please point out to me where I've used Super Bowl rings as proof of talent superiority. If I did so, it was a mistake. I think Brady is more talented, but his numbers aren't as gaudy as Manning's due to a severe lack of weapons around him. You an Cobalt seem to be the only ones convinced Brady is better based on Super bowl wins alone.
Are we talking about the same Stokley, or are you talking about Stokley as the #1 on his NFL Europe team? Stokley was in Baltimore from 1999-2002. He only played in 34 out of 64 possible games. Qadry Ismail was the #1 in Baltimore for 99-01, and Taylor was the #1 in 2002. Not even close to being the #1 or even a starter for most of his tenure. +--------------------------+-------------------------+ | Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1999 bal | 2 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 1 28 28.0 1 || 2000 bal | 6 | 1 6 6.0 0 | 11 184 16.7 2 || 2001 bal | 16 | 1 1 1.0 0 | 24 344 14.3 2 || 2002 bal | 8 | 6 31 5.2 0 | 24 357 14.9 2 || 2003 ind | 6 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 22 211 9.6 3 || 2004 ind | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 58 936 16.1 9 |
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Throwing to who? Are you saying Branch is the same as Harrison? Givens and Brown as good as Wayne and Stokley? That Kevin Faulk, Antowain Smith, or Corey Dillon are as good as Edgerrin James? That the infarmary full of TEs the Pats have are as good as Clark and Pollard? You don't want to compare the talent of their supporting casts? How about their health. Name one receiver on the Patriots that has stayed healthy for the last three years. Aside from Pollard, name on Indy that hasn't. Are you saying that Inianapolis plays as conservatively as the Patriots? There's no D in Iny. They get into shootouts because they have to. The Pats play a conservative game because they have to. Brady was dink and dunking to simulate a running game the Pats didn't have. You want to talk about completion percentage? Brady threw for 53 yards on the Patriots’ game-winning drive in Super Bowl XXXVI, completing five of his eight passes. Two of his pass attempts were spiked to kill the game clock. With just 1:21 remaining, he moved the Patriots into field goal position without the benefit of timeouts. Brady has orchestrated 15 game-winning drives to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime. Four of his game-winning efforts have come in the postseason, where he has played in just six games. Oh yeah, and Brady is a perfect 5-0 against Manning, including Brady's first NFL start. Manning's having a great statistical season that Brady's probably never going to have - in Brady's best season he led the league in TDs; in Manning's best he's leading all QBs EVER in TDs. But to say Manning's head and shoulders better? Not even close. Manning's the Marino to Brady's Montana. Nothing more.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Are you saying that Chicken = all those players being drafted in the first round and Egg = making Manning good?Because that doesn't seem to support your point...
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Manning doesn't have the TD record yet, doesn't have the career yards record yet, and doesn't have a Superbowl ring yet. He's no Marino. I mean, after all, Brady only has 2 Superbowl rings and 2 Superbowl MVPs so far, led the league in TDs the one year he didn't win a Superbowl, and done all this without a Jerry Rice, in just three years, while setting the NFL record for consecutive wins and clinching a playoff spot again this year, when they are one of the favorites to win it again, while winning more Superbowls and games at this point in his career than Montana did. Brady's no Montana, right?Manning may be today's Marino. But, Brady's no Joe Montana.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Why? It's simple - I'm watching cobalt try to bait Pats fans with an argument, get his ### handed to him, and waiting for him to come back with HA HA I was only fishing.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
You Patriot fans are funny, your team is better than the Colts, has been for 3 years. Manning is the better QB, and most people know it.Who was the better QB Tom Brady [ 15 ] [19.23%] Peyton Manning [ 62 ] [79.49%] Total Votes: 77 This poll would be even more lopsided if we excluded homer votes.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Manning.Only player in NFL history to erase a 21-point deficit in the final 4 minutes of a game to win.Has a perfect passer rating in 4 games (NFL record), including the 2003 playoff game v. Denver.Most consecutive 25+ TD seasons ever.Most consecutive 4000-yd seasons ever (his 6 is more than Marino had in a career).He did this WITHOUT Edge for the better part of 2.5 seasons, with the likes of Dominick Rhodes and...I can't remember the other scrub.And, again, this whole Brady 5-0 record v. Manning underscores just how this is NOT an individual game. Kevin Faulk is 5-0 v. Edge. Is K.Faulk the better running back? Is Troy Brown better than Marvin Harrison?Thanks for playing.
valhallan
Footballguy
Are you a 10-year old girl? You sure do giggle like one.I think both quarterbacks are good leaders, accurate, and good decision-makers. However they play on different teams with different supporting casts, so direct comparison is not possible. IMO, Manning's weapons are clearly tops in the league, while Brady's are clearly mediocre. Since no convincing point can be made based on "system" arguments, perhaps it is best to look at their performances on the big stage.
Brady is undefeated in overtime and in the playoffs and his ability to stay poised has repeatedly ensured his team a victory. How you say? Well, the two Super Bowl drives are valid examples in this case, as the momentum was clearly with the Rams and Panthers in both games after they posted huge 4th quarter comebacks. Brady marched his team right down the field both times and won the game.
Manning, on the other hand, was ineffective and mistake-ridden in each of his playoff losses:
Code:
Postseason data - Peyton Manning Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD---------------------+--------------------------+----------------- 1999 ten L,16-19 | 19 43 227 0 0 | 2 22 1 2000 mia L,17-23 | 17 32 194 1 0 | 1 -2 0 2002 nyj L,0-41 | 14 31 137 0 2 | 1 2 0 2003 den W,41-10 | 22 26 377 5 0 | 1 0 0 2003 kan W,38-31 | 22 30 304 3 0 | 1 -1 0 2003 nwe L,14-24 | 23 47 237 1 4 | 2 4 0bostonfred2
Footballguy
Neither do I understand how your post relates to the post you quoted, nor how your point that the Patriots have been better for three years has anything to do with this debate. Are you saying the Patriots are better on offense than the Colts? Because otherwise, how do you explain the perfect record in overtime and the ridunkulous number of game winning drives? (And for your sake, I hope you're not going to bring up Vinatieri again. I tried to ignore your quote about how some guys don't have kickers who can hit 40 yarders, because I'm sure you know Manning had a kicker who was perfect for an entire season, but he doesn't have as good a record in the same situations). So let me try to make some sense out of what you said. It sounds like you're saying the Patriots won two Superbowls, not because of Brady, but because of the defense? Maybe you're arguing the first Superbowl win? You could definitely argue that the Pats were only in it because of their defense, and I'd agree. But you did see that last drive, right? Where Brady went 5 for 6 with no time outs in under two minutes on the biggest stage in the world? You have to give him SOME credit for that. And you can't honestly think that the Patriots won their second Superbowl on defense, can you? You couldn't have forgotten Brady and Delhomme slinging it back and forth in the second half (after half the Patriots' secondary had been injured, no less)?
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Prolly not. Football Scouts Inc., not your collection of fantasy scrubs, but a collection of experts, seem to agree that Manning is better.http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?statsId=4256I'm sure they've surveyed the relevant data we've mined here and used some common sense along with it to arrive at their ratings.Brady > Manning supporters are a vocal minority. They're definitely vocal. But, very much the minority.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Yeh, it is bad timing for Brady, we should wait for Manning to single handedly give the game away to the 3-11 Miami Dolphins by throwing 4 interceptions. We may be waiting for a while.As they say timing is everything. Lets have another poll after NE mops the floor with Indy agian in the playoffs and then see the results. Convientent time for this poll now dont you think.
valhallan
Footballguy
There goes your "he only wins because of Belichik" argument.Posts with analysis and statistical backup:Cobalt - 3Valhallan - 3Bostonfred - 4Burning Sensation - 0Leave the debate to those of us who are contributing quality information.TIAYeh, it is bad timing for Brady, we should wait for Manning to single handedly give the game away to the 3-11 Miami Dolphins by throwing 4 interceptions. We may be waiting for a while.As they say timing is everything. Lets have another poll after NE mops the floor with Indy agian in the playoffs and then see the results. Convientent time for this poll now dont you think.
jurb26
Footballguy
Yeah, thats right he only does that in playoff games. Silly me. How many INTS has Manning thrown vs. the Pats in the playoffs now. Stats are so important to you am sure I need not even tell you huh.Yeh, it is bad timing for Brady, we should wait for Manning to single handedly give the game away to the 3-11 Miami Dolphins by throwing 4 interceptions. We may be waiting for a while.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
I wasnt comparing Vinateri to Vanderjagt, i was comparing him to Norwood. Jim Kelly drove the Bills down the filed in the final 2 minutes of the game, but nobody will ever point that out as a positive because it was for nothing after Norwood missed the field goal.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
LOL, that Miami game still stings, huh.There goes your "he only wins because of Belichik" argument.Posts with analysis and statistical backup:Cobalt - 3Valhallan - 3Bostonfred - 4Burning Sensation - 0Leave the debate to those of us who are contributing quality information.TIAYeh, it is bad timing for Brady, we should wait for Manning to single handedly give the game away to the 3-11 Miami Dolphins by throwing 4 interceptions. We may be waiting for a while.As they say timing is everything. Lets have another poll after NE mops the floor with Indy agian in the playoffs and then see the results. Convientent time for this poll now dont you think.
edited to add isnt me pointing out Bradys 4 int's statistical backup?
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bostonfred2
Footballguy
That's not true. 11 players have done that. Besides, Manning only threw for 2 TDs that game. (That's your argument against Brady's wins, right? Just trying to be consistent)
Brady recorded seven passer ratings of over 100.0 in 2003, including a 100.5 rating in Super Bowl XXXVIII. He has recorded 16 ratings over 100.0 in his career, and the Patriots are a perfect 16-0 in those games.
Ask any NFL QB which streak they want: Undefeated in the postseason, consecutive wins, most Superbowl MVPs, consecutive 25+ TD seasons, or consecutive 4000 yard seasons. Name the ones who come back with the yards and TDs.
And Brady had? I noticed that you didn't mention he did this WITHOUT a first round wide receiver.
So is your point that Manning has better statistics because he has a better offense around him? If so, I agree.
No, thank you.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Who has more MVP's?
bostonfred2
Footballguy
1998 Manning throws 3 INTs in loss to Miami. In the following game, he throws 3 INTs in loss to New England. In fact, he threw 11 INTs in his first four games, losing all four. We'll throw that out because he was a rookie.2000 Manning throws 3 INTs in loss to Patriots (5-11). 2001 Manning again throws 3 INTs in loss to Patriots, but of course this time the Pats won the Superbowl. He folllowed that with 4 INTs in a loss to the 49ers. 2002 Manning threw 3 INTs in three different games, all losses. 2003 Manning got his third first round pick to throw to, while Edge got healthy. Miraculously, his multi-INT games decline.Yeh, it is bad timing for Brady, we should wait for Manning to single handedly give the game away to the 3-11 Miami Dolphins by throwing 4 interceptions. We may be waiting for a while.As they say timing is everything. Lets have another poll after NE mops the floor with Indy agian in the playoffs and then see the results. Convientent time for this poll now dont you think.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Regular season or Superbowl?
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Regular season, when they are just not given to the winning teams QB.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Manning hasnt had any 4 int games over the last 3 years, thats was Brady's 2nd.1998 Manning throws 3 INTs in loss to Miami. In the following game, he throws 3 INTs in loss to New England. In fact, he threw 11 INTs in his first four games, losing all four. We'll throw that out because he was a rookie.2000 Manning throws 3 INTs in loss to Patriots (5-11). 2001 Manning again throws 3 INTs in loss to Patriots, but of course this time the Pats won the Superbowl. He folllowed that with 4 INTs in a loss to the 49ers. 2002 Manning threw 3 INTs in three different games, all losses. 2003 Manning got his third first round pick to throw to, while Edge got healthy. Miraculously, his multi-INT games decline.Yeh, it is bad timing for Brady, we should wait for Manning to single handedly give the game away to the 3-11 Miami Dolphins by throwing 4 interceptions. We may be waiting for a while.As they say timing is everything. Lets have another poll after NE mops the floor with Indy agian in the playoffs and then see the results. Convientent time for this poll now dont you think.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
You're right, it's not fair because Manning hasn't won any Superbowls. Because you think regular season MVP is much more objective, I'll concede that Manning was co-MVP once. Of course he lost to Brady's team twice that year, throwing 4 INTs (your favorite stat again!) in the second loss.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Sorry, Manning was the FIRST...not the only. (I'll concede, I got this from ESPN, so if they're wrong, I apologize for them. I don't have a link to any other reference point than this.)
Manning has 11 100+ rating games this year, with two to play.
I don't think there's any question--you want the SB rings. I just happen to believe it's a team effort with more than 22 men and a head coach involved. For some reason the SB argument only applies to QBs. Why aren't you arguing that Troy Brown is better than Harrison, when the rings favor one and not the other? I hope the reason is that, with your own eyes, you see the skill sets involved at the position and have concluded that Harrison is better.By that same token, I look at Manning, I look at Brady, and there's just no question that I'd start my team with Peyton over Brady every day of the week. I'm guessing you would go the other way. Which is cool. I just think the "Super Bowl Argument" has no legs, when you look at any number of QBs who've won the award and are clearly NOT better than quite a few that haven't (e.g., Marino, Tark, Kelly, etc.). Especially considering that this argument is NEVER applied to Running Backs or Wideouts.
All said, I think Brady's a very good QB who works well within his system. I think it's a perfect marriage for the skill sets he possesses. I think he's probably "cooler" under pressure than Manning; at least in years past, I would say this...not so sure I can say that this year, given what I've seen out of Manning.
We could argue stats all day, and it'll always come down to two things: Manning has superior gaudiness when it comes to the numbers except one: rings. Brady has those, and he's earned them. But, if I'm starting a team, I'm not limiting myself to that criterion. I think Peyton's got more tools in the chest.
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Burning Sensation
Footballguy
He will have 1 1/2 mvp's after this year.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
sorry, Manning has one, but that is still less than Brady.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
You keep coming back for more. Why'd you say last three years? Manning had 58 INTs in his first three years as starter. Brady had 38. Manning has had 52 INTs in the last three years. Brady had 38. You're right, though - Brady's had more 4 INT games. Which makes the fact that he has so few INTs in the rest of his games more impressive, not less.Manning hasnt had any 4 int games over the last 3 years, thats was Brady's 2nd.1998 Manning throws 3 INTs in loss to Miami. In the following game, he throws 3 INTs in loss to New England. In fact, he threw 11 INTs in his first four games, losing all four. We'll throw that out because he was a rookie.2000 Manning throws 3 INTs in loss to Patriots (5-11). 2001 Manning again throws 3 INTs in loss to Patriots, but of course this time the Pats won the Superbowl. He folllowed that with 4 INTs in a loss to the 49ers. 2002 Manning threw 3 INTs in three different games, all losses. 2003 Manning got his third first round pick to throw to, while Edge got healthy. Miraculously, his multi-INT games decline.Yeh, it is bad timing for Brady, we should wait for Manning to single handedly give the game away to the 3-11 Miami Dolphins by throwing 4 interceptions. We may be waiting for a while.As they say timing is everything. Lets have another poll after NE mops the floor with Indy agian in the playoffs and then see the results. Convientent time for this poll now dont you think.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Are sure about these numbers, or are you just making them up to make Brady look better?
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Burning Sensation
Footballguy
what?Forgiven, but care to else us when it came?
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
i knew the game you were talking about, i just didnt understand your question.Last year in the playoffs vs. NE. You forget about this already?what?Forgiven, but care to else us when it came?
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