Tom Brady - Randy Moss = Eli Manning (1 Viewer)

[benm3218]

Lets don't forget that before Moss came to New England, Tom Brady was Eli Manningish with 3500 yards and 25 TD's. The Patriot's won Super Bowls without Brady having gaudy stats. He was NEVER outstanding. He was solidly average. His highest TD total was 28. his highest yards were 4110 in 2005, but every other year he was at 3500. Then when Moss came he blew up for 50 TD's and 4800 yards. WHY? Moss has that affect. See Daunte Culpepper.

Brady is now once again solidly average. He is a clone of Eli, but in all fairness Eli actually has much better weapons around him.

Brady has a 2nd year receiver, a couple young TE's, a couple slot receivers, and no great run game at all.

Brady is once again a solidly average QB. No more gaudy stats. Welcome back average Tom "Eli Manningish" Brady.

 

[lodnerpantz]

So you think Brady immediately reverts to the player he was 4 years ago? You don't think the experience he has gained over the past several years playing with Moss might have made him a better player? Football skills are not static, especially at the QB position. Brady is not going to revert to Eli Manning numbers. You also need to consider other aspects of the Pats teams. Brady still has a sub-par running game, and a much younger defense than he did in 2005. The Patriots are going to need to throw. Moss or no, this year that is the game plan.

 

[Eminence]

I think Brady's numbers will drop; but only due to the change in the Patriots gameplan.

 

[Go deep]

So you think Brady immediately reverts to the player he was 4 years ago? You don't think the experience he has gained over the past several years playing with Moss might have made him a better player? Football skills are not static, especially at the QB position. Brady is not going to revert to Eli Manning numbers. You also need to consider other aspects of the Pats teams. Brady still has a sub-par running game, and a much younger defense than he did in 2005. The Patriots are going to need to throw. Moss or no, this year that is the game plan.

No, i actually think he will not be as good.

 

[ponchsox]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

 

[Go deep]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

His fantasy numbers without Moss are not, and thats what the OP is talking about.

 

[benm3218]

So you think Brady immediately reverts to the player he was 4 years ago? You don't think the experience he has gained over the past several years playing with Moss might have made him a better player? Football skills are not static, especially at the QB position. Brady is not going to revert to Eli Manning numbers. You also need to consider other aspects of the Pats teams. Brady still has a sub-par running game, and a much younger defense than he did in 2005. The Patriots are going to need to throw. Moss or no, this year that is the game plan.

No, i actually think he will not be as good.

exactly. Brady was always a fantastic player. He was called "the general" for marching up and down the field. He was heralded as a fantastic player, he just didnt have the stats. He has no great weapons and yes I think it's a given he will return to average. In fact, I'd bet money he does not do as good as Eli.

 

[benm3218]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

So what? Eli has better weapons, and the days of Brady being a fantastic top 5-7 QB in fantasy are over.

 

[switz]

Id wait and see how the other WRs get used prior to making any absolute claims. There is no doubt Brady benefitted from Moss, half his TDs in 07 went to Moss. He doesn't have another 25 TD player on the roster. But in all honesty, Brady hasn't been on pace for even 40 TD seasons since, and Moss isn't the player he was in 07 anyway.

But depending on how Hernandez and Tate develop Brady could be a 4,000 yard 35 TD guy. Likely? No, but possible.

 

[andrew11]

I stopped reading after this

He is a clone of Eli,

 

[benm3218]

I stopped reading after this

He is a clone of Eli,

We are talking fantasy football here people. Like it or not, go look at the stats and then give an opinion. What I state is a fact. He was never a great fantasy stat guy before Moss.

 

[booond]

I stopped reading after this

He is a clone of Eli,

Brady in 2005 was #2 fantasy qb and in 2006 he was #7. That's not Eli Manning. He didn't have Welker then, either.

 

[cubbie5150]

Can't dispute simple math....

 

[Go deep]

I stopped reading after this

He is a clone of Eli,

Brady in 2005 was #2 fantasy qb and in 2006 he was #7. That's not Eli Manning. He didn't have Welker then, either.

Really?In 2005 Brady threw for 4100 yards and 26 TD's, and 2006 Brady threw for 3500 yards and 24 TD's. In 2009 Manning threw for 4000 yards and 27 TD's.

 

[benm3218]

I stopped reading after this

He is a clone of Eli,

Brady in 2005 was #2 fantasy qb and in 2006 he was #7. That's not Eli Manning. He didn't have Welker then, either.

2005 = 4100 and 26 TD's2006 = 3500 and 24the league has changed some. Those stats are what Eli can put up now and not at all an elite QB for fantasy. Your point is moot and silly.

 

[guderian]

Last year Brady was the #8 fantasy QB and Eli was the #10. Mighty gutsy call.

Regardless, this seems like the typical Patriots/Brady hate thread with very little insight beyond the fact that Brady won't throw 50 TDs again--something no one was close to projecting in the first place.

 

[benm3218]

Last year Brady was the #8 fantasy QB and Eli was the #10. Mighty gutsy call.Regardless, this seems like the typical Patriots/Brady hate thread with very little insight.

Yes, and everyone thought Eli had a career year. I think played over his head. My point is Tom Brady is now once again a 3500 yard and 25 TD QB. Merely average.

 

[-jb-]

:subscribe:

 

[benm3218]

Last year Brady was the #8 fantasy QB and Eli was the #10. Mighty gutsy call.Regardless, this seems like the typical Patriots/Brady hate thread with very little insight beyond the fact that Brady won't throw 50 TDs again--something no one was close to projecting in the first place.

Pointing out that for fantasy purposes Brady is now completely average is hate? lolBrady will always be a great QB capable of understanding the game like few others, but his stats are going to dive to previous numbers.It is not a bashing, just a simple fact.

 

[Neofight]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

His fantasy numbers without Moss are not, and thats what the OP is talking about.

I've been more impressed with Welker over the last few years. If teams want to double cover Welker, that is fine as he is not the biggest matchup problem that the Patriots present; Hernandez is. Add in Gronkowski and the progress of Tate and Edleman and Brady should be fine. To say that his weapons are not as good as Eli is silly. The only thing the Giants have on offense that the Patriots do not - even with Moss gone - is a talented running back.This was likely a fishing expedition, but honestly ask yourself how good Moss has looked this year aside from that one handed grab over a gimpy Revis. And no, I'm not a homer. I do own Moss in a few leagues, however. Looking at this as objectively as I can I've seen a Randy Moss who has failed to get a lot of separation on most deep routes and who has dropped a few potential TD's that he should've (and would've in the past) hauled in.

 

[benm3218]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

His fantasy numbers without Moss are not, and thats what the OP is talking about.

I've been more impressed with Welker over the last few years. If teams want to double cover Welker, that is fine as he is not the biggest matchup problem that the Patriots present; Hernandez is. Add in Gronkowski and the progress of Tate and Edleman and Brady should be fine. To say that his weapons are not as good as Eli is silly. The only thing the Giants have on offense that the Patriots do not - even with Moss gone - is a talented running back.This was likely a fishing expedition, but honestly ask yourself how good Moss has looked this year aside from that one handed grab over a gimpy Revis. And no, I'm not a homer. I do own Moss in a few leagues, however. Looking at this as objectively as I can I've seen a Randy Moss who has failed to get a lot of separation on most deep routes and who has dropped a few potential TD's that he should've (and would've in the past) hauled in.

Eli has MUCH better weapons. A couple rookie TE's and Welker/Tate = Steve Smith, Nicks, Boss, and Manningham???Definitely not fishing. I am talking fantasy here. I understand those with Brady want to think of him as an elite fantasy QB, but he simply never was outside of the short time in Moss's prime. You cannot argue with that.

 

[Go deep]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

His fantasy numbers without Moss are not, and thats what the OP is talking about.

I've been more impressed with Welker over the last few years. If teams want to double cover Welker, that is fine as he is not the biggest matchup problem that the Patriots present; Hernandez is. Add in Gronkowski and the progress of Tate and Edleman and Brady should be fine. To say that his weapons are not as good as Eli is silly. The only thing the Giants have on offense that the Patriots do not - even with Moss gone - is a talented running back.This was likely a fishing expedition, but honestly ask yourself how good Moss has looked this year aside from that one handed grab over a gimpy Revis. And no, I'm not a homer. I do own Moss in a few leagues, however. Looking at this as objectively as I can I've seen a Randy Moss who has failed to get a lot of separation on most deep routes and who has dropped a few potential TD's that he should've (and would've in the past) hauled in.

Moss has been drawing double coverage, his stats dont matter. I doubt anyone will be double covering Welker. However, there will be less room for every WR now that defenses will not be using a safety to double Moss.Also, Manningham, Nicks, Smith >> Welker, Gronk, Hernandez.Each of those Pats pass catchers looked better because of Moss.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

His highest TD total was 28.

Which led the NFL that year.

 

[LarryAllen'sJockstrap]

Last year Brady was the #8 fantasy QB and Eli was the #10. Mighty gutsy call.Regardless, this seems like the typical Patriots/Brady hate thread with very little insight.

Yes, and everyone thought Eli had a career year. I think played over his head. My point is Tom Brady is now once again a 3500 yard and 25 TD QB. Merely average.

So what you really mean to say is that:Tom Brady - Randy Moss = Eli Manning in a Career Year = ~ QB8-10Hmm... considering he wasn't being drafted as a Top 3-4 QB the last couple of years, I don't see how your "prediction" is any kind of useful revelation.

 

[benm3218]

Last year Brady was the #8 fantasy QB and Eli was the #10. Mighty gutsy call.

Regardless, this seems like the typical Patriots/Brady hate thread with very little insight.

Yes, and everyone thought Eli had a career year. I think played over his head. My point is Tom Brady is now once again a 3500 yard and 25 TD QB. Merely average.

So what you really mean to say is that:Tom Brady - Randy Moss = Eli Manning in a Career Year = ~ QB8-10

Hmm... considering he wasn't being drafted as a Top 3-4 QB the last couple of years, I don't see how your "prediction" is any kind of useful revelation.

Reading problems? I said he was not equal to a career year Eli. See bolded above.

 

[Go deep]

Last year Brady was the #8 fantasy QB and Eli was the #10. Mighty gutsy call.Regardless, this seems like the typical Patriots/Brady hate thread with very little insight.

Yes, and everyone thought Eli had a career year. I think played over his head. My point is Tom Brady is now once again a 3500 yard and 25 TD QB. Merely average.

So what you really mean to say is that:Tom Brady - Randy Moss = Eli Manning in a Career Year = ~ QB8-10Hmm... considering he wasn't being drafted as a Top 3-4 QB the last couple of years, I don't see how your "prediction" is any kind of useful revelation.

Most people drafted Brady as a top 5-6 QB and now he will be lucky to put up top 10 numbers from here on out.

 

[Darth Cheney]

I kind of agree with the point. I don't know about Eli.....but fantasy wise....Tom Brady is now a lot closer to the tier lower than the Brees's, Peytons and Rodgers'.

 

[benm3218]

His highest TD total was 28.

Which led the NFL that year.

Times have changed. You know that. Your point isn't very insightful at all.The point of the post is that Brady's stats are taking a nosedive to average. He was not drafted by his owners as average.He was drafted with hopes of being top tier.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I stopped reading after this

He is a clone of Eli,

Brady in 2005 was #2 fantasy qb and in 2006 he was #7. That's not Eli Manning. He didn't have Welker then, either.

2005 = 4100 and 26 TD's

2006 = 3500 and 24

the league has changed some. Those stats are what Eli can put up now and not at all an elite QB for fantasy. Your point is moot and silly.

So the league has changed for everyone except for Brady - he'll be a throwback?Losing Moss certainly hurts his production, but I think you are way over-exagerating the reality. Brady is a better QB than he was in 2004-2006. What you fail to address when you point out those statistics were that he was still one of the better fantasy QBs back then - those "only" 28 TDs that were his previous career high before Moss, were the most TDs of any QB in the league that year.

 

[parrot]

His highest TD total was 28.

Which led the NFL that year.

Times have changed. You know that. Your point isn't very insightful at all.The point of the post is that Brady's stats are taking a nosedive to average. He was not drafted by his owners as average.He was drafted with hopes of being top tier.

So everything about the league has changed, except Brady. Great point.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

His highest TD total was 28.

Which led the NFL that year.

Times have changed. You know that. Your point isn't very insightful at all.The point of the post is that Brady's stats are taking a nosedive to average. He was not drafted by his owners as average.

He was drafted with hopes of being top tier.

Once again, so times have changed for everyone except Brady? You may want to look into who is the one that isn't being insightful.

 

[benm3218]

I stopped reading after this

He is a clone of Eli,

Brady in 2005 was #2 fantasy qb and in 2006 he was #7. That's not Eli Manning. He didn't have Welker then, either.

2005 = 4100 and 26 TD's

2006 = 3500 and 24

the league has changed some. Those stats are what Eli can put up now and not at all an elite QB for fantasy. Your point is moot and silly.

So the league has changed for everyone except for Brady - he'll be a throwback?Losing Moss certainly hurts his production, but I think you are way over-exagerating the reality. Brady is a better QB than he was in 2004-2006. What you fail to address when you point out those statistics were that he was still one of the better fantasy QBs back then - those "only" 28 TDs that were his previous career high before Moss, were the most TDs of any QB in the league that year.

Right and if he returns to those numbers NOW it will be average production from a QB who was drafted with the potential of getting top production.It is a blow to his owners.

 

[benm3218]

His highest TD total was 28.

Which led the NFL that year.

Times have changed. You know that. Your point isn't very insightful at all.The point of the post is that Brady's stats are taking a nosedive to average. He was not drafted by his owners as average.

He was drafted with hopes of being top tier.

Once again, so times have changed for everyone except Brady? You may want to look into who is the one that isn't being insightful.

Ok, new way to discuss it. What do you think his stats will be? Do you see no drop in production at all for losing Moss?Do you not think Moss will help Favre significantly? Is Moss not a huge boon for the passing attack?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Right and if he returns to those numbers NOW it will be average production from a QB who was drafted with the potential of getting top production.It is a blow to his owners.

So the fact that he has grown as a QB, has much better weapons around him then he did back then (even w/o Moss) and the Past have changed their offense into one that is more pass orientated (along with the rest of the NFL) is irrelevant?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

His highest TD total was 28.

Which led the NFL that year.

Times have changed. You know that. Your point isn't very insightful at all.The point of the post is that Brady's stats are taking a nosedive to average. He was not drafted by his owners as average.

He was drafted with hopes of being top tier.

Once again, so times have changed for everyone except Brady? You may want to look into who is the one that isn't being insightful.

Ok, new way to discuss it. What do you think his stats will be? Do you see no drop in production at all for losing Moss?Do you not think Moss will help Favre significantly? Is Moss not a huge boon for the passing attack?

I said above that the loss of Moss hurts, but I can still see him finaihing the year with somewhere between 4,100-4,400 yards and 32 TDs.

 

[benm3218]

I said above that the loss of Moss hurts, but I can still see him finaihing the year with somewhere between 4,100-4,400 yards and 32 TDs.

No way. That is silly. Last year he had 4300 and 28 TD's and you see a better year for him after losing Moss while admitting losing Moss hurt him?You are not thinking clearly.

 

[Clifford]

Lets don't forget that before Moss came to New England, Tom Brady was Eli Manningish with 3500 yards and 25 TD's. The Patriot's won Super Bowls without Brady having gaudy stats. He was NEVER outstanding. He was solidly average. His highest TD total was 28. his highest yards were 4110 in 2005, but every other year he was at 3500. Then when Moss came he blew up for 50 TD's and 4800 yards. WHY? Moss has that affect. See Daunte Culpepper. Brady is now once again solidly average. He is a clone of Eli, but in all fairness Eli actually has much better weapons around him. Brady has a 2nd year receiver, a couple young TE's, a couple slot receivers, and no great run game at all. Brady is once again a solidly average QB. No more gaudy stats. Welcome back average Tom "Eli Manningish" Brady.

I thought NE's run game looked pretty damn effective. BJGE looks legit and they found their Faulk clone in Woodhead. But I don't know if he returns to exactly what he was. I think he has improved since then and Hernandez could take Moss's place.NE is smart with their trades and I don't think they would have made this trade if they thought it would substantially hurt their offense.There's also the fact that Moss hasn't been targeted much at all and Brady still has good stats.

 

[Go deep]

Right and if he returns to those numbers NOW it will be average production from a QB who was drafted with the potential of getting top production.It is a blow to his owners.

So the fact that he has grown as a QB, has much better weapons around him then he did back then (even w/o Moss) and the Past have changed their offense into one that is more pass orientated (along with the rest of the NFL) is irrelevant?

I may be wrong, but i would bet QB's usually have better seasons in their late 20's than when they are 33. Also, how do we know this WR corps is "much" better than the WR's Brady had then? Also, i think the Pats Oline was better back then.

 

[benm3218]

Lets don't forget that before Moss came to New England, Tom Brady was Eli Manningish with 3500 yards and 25 TD's. The Patriot's won Super Bowls without Brady having gaudy stats. He was NEVER outstanding. He was solidly average. His highest TD total was 28. his highest yards were 4110 in 2005, but every other year he was at 3500. Then when Moss came he blew up for 50 TD's and 4800 yards. WHY? Moss has that affect. See Daunte Culpepper. Brady is now once again solidly average. He is a clone of Eli, but in all fairness Eli actually has much better weapons around him. Brady has a 2nd year receiver, a couple young TE's, a couple slot receivers, and no great run game at all. Brady is once again a solidly average QB. No more gaudy stats. Welcome back average Tom "Eli Manningish" Brady.

I thought NE's run game looked pretty damn effective. BJGE looks legit and they found their Faulk clone in Woodhead. But I don't know if he returns to exactly what he was. I think he has improved since then and Hernandez could take Moss's place.NE is smart with their trades and I don't think they would have made this trade if they thought it would substantially hurt their offense.There's also the fact that Moss hasn't been targeted much at all and Brady still has good stats.

NE may think they can do as well if they like their run game. I agree run game could be good. But, run game being good OR Pats winning games has nothing to do with Brady's fantasy numbers.

 

[Hang 10]

Right and if he returns to those numbers NOW it will be average production from a QB who was drafted with the potential of getting top production.It is a blow to his owners.

So the fact that he has grown as a QB, has much better weapons around him then he did back then (even w/o Moss) and the Past have changed their offense into one that is more pass orientated (along with the rest of the NFL) is irrelevant?

What makes you think Brady is a better QB now, than when he was actually winning playoff games? Also, his weapons are definitely not MUCH better. In fact, it's debatable.

 

[switz]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

His fantasy numbers without Moss are not, and thats what the OP is talking about.

I've been more impressed with Welker over the last few years. If teams want to double cover Welker, that is fine as he is not the biggest matchup problem that the Patriots present; Hernandez is. Add in Gronkowski and the progress of Tate and Edleman and Brady should be fine. To say that his weapons are not as good as Eli is silly. The only thing the Giants have on offense that the Patriots do not - even with Moss gone - is a talented running back.

I definitely do not want to hear going forward how Brady has terrible WRs.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I said above that the loss of Moss hurts, but I can still see him finaihing the year with somewhere between 4,100-4,400 yards and 32 TDs.

No way. That is silly. Last year he had 4300 and 28 TD's and you see a better year for him after losing Moss while admitting losing Moss hurt him?You are not thinking clearly.

He was still recovering from his ACL injury last season and he's already thrown 9 TDs this season in 4 games. So are you saying that he cannot average 2 TDs per game the rest of the season? I'm the one not thinking clearly?

 

[benm3218]

Right and if he returns to those numbers NOW it will be average production from a QB who was drafted with the potential of getting top production.It is a blow to his owners.

So the fact that he has grown as a QB, has much better weapons around him then he did back then (even w/o Moss) and the Past have changed their offense into one that is more pass orientated (along with the rest of the NFL) is irrelevant?

I may be wrong, but i would bet QB's usually have better seasons in their late 20's than when they are 33. Also, how do we know this WR corps is "much" better than the WR's Brady had then? Also, i think the Pats Oline was better back then.

Back then Brady was heralded as one of the best. It's not like he was a bad QB who has grown substantially. He didn't need to grow a lot, he was great. He just didn't have gaudy stats by todays standards, so a return to those numbers hurts his owners fantasy wise not necessarily hurting the Pats at all. I know you get what I am saying but many don't...

 

[Neofight]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

His fantasy numbers without Moss are not, and thats what the OP is talking about.

I've been more impressed with Welker over the last few years. If teams want to double cover Welker, that is fine as he is not the biggest matchup problem that the Patriots present; Hernandez is. Add in Gronkowski and the progress of Tate and Edleman and Brady should be fine. To say that his weapons are not as good as Eli is silly. The only thing the Giants have on offense that the Patriots do not - even with Moss gone - is a talented running back.This was likely a fishing expedition, but honestly ask yourself how good Moss has looked this year aside from that one handed grab over a gimpy Revis. And no, I'm not a homer. I do own Moss in a few leagues, however. Looking at this as objectively as I can I've seen a Randy Moss who has failed to get a lot of separation on most deep routes and who has dropped a few potential TD's that he should've (and would've in the past) hauled in.

Eli has MUCH better weapons. A couple rookie TE's and Welker/Tate = Steve Smith, Nicks, Boss, and Manningham???Definitely not fishing. I am talking fantasy here. I understand those with Brady want to think of him as an elite fantasy QB, but he simply never was outside of the short time in Moss's prime. You cannot argue with that.

Yes, they are better than Manningham, Smith, Nicks and Boss. Welker is easily the best WR in that grouping (Fantasy and otherwise) and Boss is, well, Boss. The guy has 13 targets this year. He won't finish the season with the FF numbers of either of the NE TE's, assuming they all stay healthy. Eli is a nice QB and from a fantasy perspective will put up numbers on some weeks; but thus far he's been more misses than hits. Brady is a much better passer and is in a pass first offense with no real NFL runingbacks at his disposal. BJE has had a few nice games, but how many teams would he start on in the NFL? He is not going to be a huge factor in FF over the course of the season.Also, if you are figuring the Monday night game into your mathematical equation, ask yourself how many times Brady and the Patriots O will not see the snaps they missed after three D/ST TD's. That game was an anomaly for a still very young Patriots D. What is far more likely to happen in the remainder of the season is that the Patriots will be involved in shootouts against the likes of the Chargers, Vikings, Colts, Jets, et al. Their defense just isn't that good. Yet.ETA: Hell, the Lions will probably even put up numbers on the Pats D, especially if Stafford is healthy by Thanksgiving.

 

[Go deep]

Lets don't forget that before Moss came to New England, Tom Brady was Eli Manningish with 3500 yards and 25 TD's. The Patriot's won Super Bowls without Brady having gaudy stats. He was NEVER outstanding. He was solidly average. His highest TD total was 28. his highest yards were 4110 in 2005, but every other year he was at 3500. Then when Moss came he blew up for 50 TD's and 4800 yards. WHY? Moss has that affect. See Daunte Culpepper.

Brady is now once again solidly average. He is a clone of Eli, but in all fairness Eli actually has much better weapons around him.

Brady has a 2nd year receiver, a couple young TE's, a couple slot receivers, and no great run game at all.

Brady is once again a solidly average QB. No more gaudy stats. Welcome back average Tom "Eli Manningish" Brady.

I thought NE's run game looked pretty damn effective. BJGE looks legit and they found their Faulk clone in Woodhead. But I don't know if he returns to exactly what he was. I think he has improved since then and Hernandez could take Moss's place.NE is smart with their trades and I don't think they would have made this trade if they thought it would substantially hurt their offense.

There's also the fact that Moss hasn't been targeted much at all and Brady still has good stats.

Moss is getting double covered, in turn, there is more room for other WR's to get open. Now that Moss is gone, its like the defense getting an extra player.

 

[benm3218]

I said above that the loss of Moss hurts, but I can still see him finaihing the year with somewhere between 4,100-4,400 yards and 32 TDs.

No way. That is silly. Last year he had 4300 and 28 TD's and you see a better year for him after losing Moss while admitting losing Moss hurt him?You are not thinking clearly.

He was still recovering from his ACL injury last season and he's already thrown 9 TDs this season in 4 games. So are you saying that he cannot average 2 TDs per game the rest of the season? I'm the one not thinking clearly?

You completely contradicted yourself. Saying he would suffer some without Moss but that he could have better stats.

 

[Go deep]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

His fantasy numbers without Moss are not, and thats what the OP is talking about.

I've been more impressed with Welker over the last few years. If teams want to double cover Welker, that is fine as he is not the biggest matchup problem that the Patriots present; Hernandez is. Add in Gronkowski and the progress of Tate and Edleman and Brady should be fine. To say that his weapons are not as good as Eli is silly. The only thing the Giants have on offense that the Patriots do not - even with Moss gone - is a talented running back.This was likely a fishing expedition, but honestly ask yourself how good Moss has looked this year aside from that one handed grab over a gimpy Revis. And no, I'm not a homer. I do own Moss in a few leagues, however. Looking at this as objectively as I can I've seen a Randy Moss who has failed to get a lot of separation on most deep routes and who has dropped a few potential TD's that he should've (and would've in the past) hauled in.

Eli has MUCH better weapons. A couple rookie TE's and Welker/Tate = Steve Smith, Nicks, Boss, and Manningham???Definitely not fishing. I am talking fantasy here. I understand those with Brady want to think of him as an elite fantasy QB, but he simply never was outside of the short time in Moss's prime. You cannot argue with that.

Yes, they are better than Manningham, Smith, Nicks and Boss. Welker is easily the best WR in that grouping (Fantasy and otherwise) and Boss is, well, Boss. The guys has 13 targets this year. He won't finish the season with the FF numbers of either of the NE TE's, assuming they all stay healthy. Eli is a nice QB and from a fantasy perspective will put up numbers on some weeks; but thus far he's been more misses than hits. Brady is a much better passer and is in a pass first offense with no real NFL runingbacks at his disposal. BJE has had a few nice games, but how many teams would he start on in the NFL? He is not going to be a huge factor in FF over the course of the season.Also, if you are figuring the Monday night game into your mathematical equation, ask yourself how many times Brady and the Patriots O will not see the snaps they missed after three D/ST TD's. That game was an anomaly for a still very young Patriots D. What is far more likely to happen in the remainder of the season is that the Patriots will be involved in shootouts against the likes of the Chargers, Vikings, Colts, Jets, et al. Their defense just isn't that good. Yet.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Right and if he returns to those numbers NOW it will be average production from a QB who was drafted with the potential of getting top production.

It is a blow to his owners.

So the fact that he has grown as a QB, has much better weapons around him then he did back then (even w/o Moss) and the Past have changed their offense into one that is more pass orientated (along with the rest of the NFL) is irrelevant?

I may be wrong, but i would bet QB's usually have better seasons in their late 20's than when they are 33. Also, how do we know this WR corps is "much" better than the WR's Brady had then? Also, i think the Pats Oline was better back then.

How do we "know" anything when we are speculating and giving opinions on this board?As to your first point, I'm not going to look up numbers but as we know elite QBs numbers do not drop once they reach their mid-30s. Just look at what Peyton, Warner and Favre have done recently at even more advanced ages.

My point is that Brady has developed from a game manager into an elite QB and the Pats offense has changed accordingly from a run orientated system into a passing system. It's silly to say that Brady only put up 28 TDs before Moss when that number led the league and when that is pointed out to counter with "the game has changed" - which of course ignores the fact that Brady is pary of the "games that has changed".

 

[benm3218]

Terrible comparison. Brady is on a different level than Eli.

His fantasy numbers without Moss are not, and thats what the OP is talking about.

I've been more impressed with Welker over the last few years. If teams want to double cover Welker, that is fine as he is not the biggest matchup problem that the Patriots present; Hernandez is. Add in Gronkowski and the progress of Tate and Edleman and Brady should be fine. To say that his weapons are not as good as Eli is silly. The only thing the Giants have on offense that the Patriots do not - even with Moss gone - is a talented running back.This was likely a fishing expedition, but honestly ask yourself how good Moss has looked this year aside from that one handed grab over a gimpy Revis. And no, I'm not a homer. I do own Moss in a few leagues, however. Looking at this as objectively as I can I've seen a Randy Moss who has failed to get a lot of separation on most deep routes and who has dropped a few potential TD's that he should've (and would've in the past) hauled in.

Eli has MUCH better weapons. A couple rookie TE's and Welker/Tate = Steve Smith, Nicks, Boss, and Manningham???Definitely not fishing. I am talking fantasy here. I understand those with Brady want to think of him as an elite fantasy QB, but he simply never was outside of the short time in Moss's prime. You cannot argue with that.

Yes, they are better than Manningham, Smith, Nicks and Boss. Welker is easily the best WR in that grouping (Fantasy and otherwise) and Boss is, well, Boss. The guys has 13 targets this year. He won't finish the season with the FF numbers of either of the NE TE's, assuming they all stay healthy. Eli is a nice QB and from a fantasy perspective will put up numbers on some weeks; but thus far he's been more misses than hits. Brady is a much better passer and is in a pass first offense with no real NFL runingbacks at his disposal. BJE has had a few nice games, but how many teams would he start on in the NFL? He is not going to be a huge factor in FF over the course of the season.Also, if you are figuring the Monday night game into your mathematical equation, ask yourself how many times Brady and the Patriots O will not see the snaps they missed after three D/ST TD's. That game was an anomaly for a still very young Patriots D. What is far more likely to happen in the remainder of the season is that the Patriots will be involved in shootouts against the likes of the Chargers, Vikings, Colts, Jets, et al. Their defense just isn't that good. Yet.

Welker looks the way he does to you due to Moss being always double covered leaving space for Welker. That just changed. I'd take Nicks over Welker any day as GM of a team. Nicks is very special. I don't care about BJGE or Woodhead. If they do good or bad it doesn't impact my argument that Brady is now not a top tier fantasy QB.

 

[benm3218]

Right and if he returns to those numbers NOW it will be average production from a QB who was drafted with the potential of getting top production.

It is a blow to his owners.

So the fact that he has grown as a QB, has much better weapons around him then he did back then (even w/o Moss) and the Past have changed their offense into one that is more pass orientated (along with the rest of the NFL) is irrelevant?

I may be wrong, but i would bet QB's usually have better seasons in their late 20's than when they are 33. Also, how do we know this WR corps is "much" better than the WR's Brady had then? Also, i think the Pats Oline was better back then.

How do we "know" anything when we are speculating and giving opinions on this board?As to your first point, I'm not going to look up numbers but as we know elite QBs numbers do not drop once they reach their mid-30s. Just look at what Peyton, Warner and Favre have done recently at even more advanced ages.

My point is that Brady has developed from a game manager into an elite QB and the Pats offense has changed accordingly from a run orientated system into a passing system. It's silly to say that Brady only put up 28 TDs before Moss when that number led the league and when that is pointed out to counter with "the game has changed" - which of course ignores the fact that Brady is pary of the "games that has changed".

Why did the Pat's change to passing team? Moss.