Trading (1 Viewer)

[coolnerd]

Just wanted to get some opinions on the following

An owner sent the following trade offer

V. Young/Holt (me) for Rod smith, Moose, Brad Johnson and a useless rookie pick. I replied stating that I don't care for any of the players that he offered with no counter.

He writes back for me to counter. I reply that a counter would be a sign that I desired to trade the players which, I don't barring an extreme overpay.

He claims he is willing to overpay, but send no offer and wants to me to work up a counter for him to judge. I again expalin to him that since I am not really wanting to trade the players that it is up to him come up with offer for me analyze and then reminded him that I traded up to get V.Young and Holt is a top 5 WR.

He returns that he knows the value and lets see what we can do, but with no offer. Finally, i respond that I since he is not honoring my request, so no trade for these players, maybe next time.

_________________________________________________________________

Normally, my thought is that if someone responds with no counter this means that the person is not interested in trading. Secondly, if I did not make the first contact nor have expressed a desire either publically or in private to trade the players, then I hold no responsibility to make the trading easy. Finally, I stated why I would not counter and the owner who is attempting to get the players refused that request.

Besides initally stating directly that Holt and Young were not up for trade in my first response, how would have some of you handled this?

 

[FUBAR]

He was fishing, and didn't catch anything, so he's disapointed.

If there's anything that would work, I'd make a counter, if not just leave it where it is.

 

[JohnnyU]

Simple Rule - If I'm the one wanting to trade for a player or players, then I make the offer. If the other owner wants someone on my team, then he makes the offer.

I get a big kick out of those that don't have the nuts to make offers, but instead wishes the other guy to make the offer. He's probably so afraid of getting the bad end of the deal, or he's hoping to steal a player.

My favorite is this - "What would you give me for so and so".

As far as you not making a counter, I agree with you in that if I didn't really want to trade a player, then I'm not going to counter.

 

[Christo]

I don't think I've ever completed a trade with someone who initiated negotiations with a lowball offer and then thought he was entitled to a counter-offer.

 

[videoguy505]

I don't think I've ever completed a trade with someone who initiated negotiations with a lowball offer and then thought he was entitled to a counter-offer.

You have to start low if you're the one initiating. If you open with your best offer you'll miss out on value the times that the other guy would have accepted less. We had one owner who's auto-picked team was too stacked at WR and had to trade off at a loss to get other depth, can't pass those opportunities up when the other guy might take a lesser offer.

 

[JohnnyU]

I don't think I've ever completed a trade with someone who initiated negotiations with a lowball offer and then thought he was entitled to a counter-offer.

You have to start low if you're the one initiating. If you open with your best offer you'll miss out on value the times that the other guy would have accepted less. We had one owner who's auto-picked team was too stacked at WR and had to trade off at a loss to get other depth, can't pass those opportunities up when the other guy might take a lesser offer.

I've found you make more trades to help your team with a good first offer, rather than get that 1 steal every couple of years. Most of the guys in my leagues know that I operate from the perspective that I try to make a good first offer, and that I don't like haggling.Edited to say - Not to mention others are more willing to trade with someone they know isn't trying to rip them off.

 

[Weiner Dog]

...but you did say you would essentially trade the players for an extreme overpay. I'm assuming the guy wants to gauge your definition of "extreme overpay" by asking for an offer.

 

[The Duff Man]

There is rarely a trade in my dynasty league that is accepted on the first offer. Usually there is some haggling back and forth. In the end it might be a 4th round rookie pick next year that gets added, but the guy receiving the offer will feel like he got a little something extra included in the deal.

For this reason I'll usually lowball my first offer.

Redraft leagues are harder to pull off a trade since you don't have these low value assets to bargain with. All you have is your existing roster and maybe waiver wire bucks. In these instances lowballing usually doesn't work unless you are stacked at one position with several players and you have the ability to make similar offers that are slightly more favorable each time.

 

[JohnnyU]

For this reason I'll usually lowball my first offer.

I NEVER counter lowball first offers, and I do a lot of trading.

 

[Pictus Cat]

I just like the banter and counter offer process. I offer one or two counters and respond to the responses to those. You never know where it will lead and a win win trade made be made with completely different players.

It's kinda like looking for a romantic interest. Be nice, get to know eachother and everyone else around you, have fun, even if its not meant to be, you might be pals with the one they marry who introduces you to someone in thier family who is perfect for you.

Next thing you know your in a three+way trade.

 

[coolnerd]

...but you did say you would essentially trade the players for an extreme overpay. I'm assuming the guy wants to gauge your definition of "extreme overpay" by asking for an offer.

Here was the only place where I questioned my tactic, but his first request for a counter came before I gave him that information. By the end of the process, if he wanted to make a serious offer to talk off of he had enough to know that I was not going to talk with him about 35 plus year old WRs and Qbs. IMO, I don't wish to make every connection for the guy I am trading with. I have rejected your offer, told you to send an overpay offer and reminded you how I value the players. Other words, if you are serious about these guys don't send a bad offer and expect me to do the work for you.

 

[Davej626]

Lowball first offers are one of two things. One, either the owner is trying to guage whether you really want to trade player X, or two, he doesn't have a clue about X's value. If its #1, then I counter. Usually, the counter is considered higher than actually X's worth. This is the opposite of his low ball offer. As a result, we usually end up in the middle, somewhere around X's "real" value. If he doesn't have a clue, I usually respond that I'm not interested in trading X for that low of an offer.

 

[Packers4ever]

When someone sends me a lowball trade I respone with a trade with their best players and my worst players just to show them how it feels to get a bad trade offer to them.

 

[massraider]

You know, it depends who you are trading with.

Some owners get insulted with lowball offers, some have an inflated opinion of their own players worth (hey, we're all guilty of that sometime), and some like to start low and work their way up.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Should have simply just sent him an offer that you find equitable but in your favor.

 

[Armando]

I again expalin to him that since I am not really wanting to trade the players that it is up to him come up with offer for me analyze

I have this goof in a league of mine that once every couple days says 'Let's do something'. LOL that's all he says....no mention of who he wants, who he's willing to deal.

If the person making the initial contact wants to get something done.....THEY will get it done. I'll always give feedback what I expect, whom I'm interested in, but I leave the responsibility to build the deal on them.

 

[panizo]

For this reason I'll usually lowball my first offer.

I NEVER counter lowball first offers, and I do a lot of trading.

Agree whole heartedly. A lowball offer is insulting on two fronts. 1. You insult my acumen if you think I would trade Shaun Alexander for Frisman Jackson.

2. Even if someone were to trade a good player for garbage, you've done a disservice to the league.

A lowball starting offer is an automatic deal breaker for me. I'll neither counter, not listen to any further offers from that owner.

 

[JohnnyU]

For this reason I'll usually lowball my first offer.

I NEVER counter lowball first offers, and I do a lot of trading.

Agree whole heartedly. A lowball offer is insulting on two fronts. 1. You insult my acumen if you think I would trade Shaun Alexander for Frisman Jackson.

2. Even if someone were to trade a good player for garbage, you've done a disservice to the league.

A lowball starting offer is an automatic deal breaker for me. I'll neither counter, not listen to any further offers from that owner.

Oh, I'll listen to future offers, but yes, it's a deal breaker for the moment. The funny thing is, are the owners who come back for seconds with the same garrrrbage. Either they are incredibly stupid, or think I am. Hell, I may be

 

[Couch Potato]

Either they are incredibly stupid, or think I am. Hell, I may be

Offer sent, Chuck. If you don't want to give up Roy Williams, feel free to counter with Randy Moss. You don't want to miss out on the big year Peerless Price is about to have, big fella.

 

[Lott's Fingertip]

For this reason I'll usually lowball my first offer.

I NEVER counter lowball first offers, and I do a lot of trading.

Agree whole heartedly. A lowball offer is insulting on two fronts. 1. You insult my acumen if you think I would trade Shaun Alexander for Frisman Jackson.

2. Even if someone were to trade a good player for garbage, you've done a disservice to the league.

A lowball starting offer is an automatic deal breaker for me. I'll neither counter, not listen to any further offers from that owner.

I wholeheartedly agree with both points. A screwy trade screws the whole league.I pretty much just turn down lowball offers. If you want to trade, offer a reasonable amount, not garbage. I don't counter-offer garbage.

I don't expect your best offer up front, but it needs to be in the ballpark.

 

[Snotbubbles]

You seem to be open to trading Holt and/or Young. Offer the owner a trade that you'd be willing to do. Otherwise, I wouldn't leave the door open. A low-ball is a starting point for some owners, either counter or close the door by taking those guys off the market.

 

[GregR_2]

So to summarize, another owner volunteered the information that he was willing to overpay for your players, and asked you to give him such an offer even.

And rather than happily take him up on it and try to improve your team, you're arguing with him about the ettiquette of who should counter-offer when?

Am I the only one seeing the problem with this picture?

 

[DarkManX]

Alot of ppl think that quantity somehow equates to being better than quality. Nothing worse than getting an offer for 3 scrubs for a stud etc.

For me its quality not quantity, although the 3 he offers may end up totalling more points combined than the player he wants, generally I doubt I would have spare room to hold these players or even know if I would have room to play them on a weekly basis.

If someone offers me a trade like that I dont tend to give them a response and certainly not a counter.

 

[radballs]

Alot of ppl think that quantity somehow equates to being better than quality. Nothing worse than getting an offer for 3 scrubs for a stud etc.

For me its quality not quantity, although the 3 he offers may end up totalling more points combined than the player he wants, generally I doubt I would have spare room to hold these players or even know if I would have room to play them on a weekly basis.

If someone offers me a trade like that I dont tend to give them a response and certainly not a counter.

It really depends on how you quantify and qualify "quantity and quality".

 

[BoltBacker]

There is rarely a trade in my dynasty league that is accepted on the first offer. Usually there is some haggling back and forth. In the end it might be a 4th round rookie pick next year that gets added, but the guy receiving the offer will feel like he got a little something extra included in the deal.

For this reason I'll usually lowball my first offer.

I completely agree.I used to never make low-ball trade offers because it just seemed like being a nuisance to your league mates but it turns out killing you in the end when your division rivals pull off trades that you can't believe were accepted. Now I just shotgun offers out to see if the potential trading partner has any interest in the players I'm offereing or any interest in moving any of the players I'm chasing. If he's insulted by the offer, so be it. On rare occasions I've gotten counter-offers that are even more low-ball than my original offer was in the first place.

 

[Demons]

So to summarize, another owner volunteered the information that he was willing to overpay for your players, and asked you to give him such an offer even.

And rather than happily take him up on it and try to improve your team, you're arguing with him about the ettiquette of who should counter-offer when?

Am I the only one seeing the problem with this picture?

I think too many people have read the same article on never making the first offer.If someone makes a lowball offer for a few of my players and says they are willing to overpay, then I tell them what I will do to make the deal happen. If they don't like the counter-offer, then no harm and no foul.

I usually make real offers upfront, none of that lowball crap. A few owners are running jokes, in that if you receive an offer of certain players on their rosters, as sure as the sun rises they made an offer of the same players to every team in the league, and those players will be dropped from their rosters within a few weeks when no trade materializes.

 

[THE UNDERCOVER BROTHA]

I look at it like this. Most of the guys i play with are FBG or FFT members and have been playing long enough to know what there doing...therefore i take it upon myself to make a offer that i see helps both me and his team. If they are rebuilding, and want future picks or if they are looking for help to advance there playoff run and i am looking to rebuild, either way i try to keep it simple.

Now if i see a guy in my league thats not sharp as others i will try and cut him 1st as i know the other sharks in my league will eat him up, hey, if you gone play with the big boys then been ready for some of the me most crafty-est trade offers...they may seem to favor you but who knows, 1 team may have had alot to spare for your stud....didnt hurt him at all to trade so and so for your top player. I prefer not to play with these kind of guys as it makes the league bad.

Some negotations takes weeks to secure a deal with an experienced owner....and you feel very good about it when you complete a deal and see's the trading partner as a guy you can trade with in the future.

But when i get those ####tey offers they insult my FF mind. Also make me not even wanna deal with that owner....I dont forget those offers neither.... thats just me.

 

[DarkManX]

Alot of ppl think that quantity somehow equates to being better than quality. Nothing worse than getting an offer for 3 scrubs for a stud etc.

For me its quality not quantity, although the 3 he offers may end up totalling more points combined than the player he wants, generally I doubt I would have spare room to hold these players or even know if I would have room to play them on a weekly basis.

If someone offers me a trade like that I dont tend to give them a response and certainly not a counter.

It really depends on how you quantify and qualify "quantity and quality".

I spose it depends on many factors... current roster, who you need and dont need, byes etc but like I said, alot of the time you get the 3 for 1 trades and theres always 1-2 you dont have the roster spots for if you draft right. Alot of my teams anyways, I like to build a solid bench, taking care of bye weeks etc when I draft so I dont do alot of trading during the season, I tend to be happy with the teams I draft. Of course WW is always an option if the right player becomes available.

 

[coolnerd]

So to summarize, another owner volunteered the information that he was willing to overpay for your players, and asked you to give him such an offer even.

And rather than happily take him up on it and try to improve your team, you're arguing with him about the ettiquette of who should counter-offer when?

Am I the only one seeing the problem with this picture?

You have to turn that picture both ways. The fact that he would get into a discussion of whose turn let me know how serious he was or wasn't. I feel this is a case where neither party was really serious about making a trade (I wasn't for sure). Not as much etiquette argument, okay show me you are serious and he did not.

 

[WhoDat]

For this reason I'll usually lowball my first offer.

I NEVER counter lowball first offers, and I do a lot of trading.

Agree whole heartedly. A lowball offer is insulting on two fronts. 1. You insult my acumen if you think I would trade Shaun Alexander for Frisman Jackson.

2. Even if someone were to trade a good player for garbage, you've done a disservice to the league.

A lowball starting offer is an automatic deal breaker for me. I'll neither counter, not listen to any further offers from that owner.

I agree. Opening any negotiation of any kind with a known ridiculous, low offer rarely, if ever, works. Insulting the other party on the other side of the table has to be one of the worst, if not the worst, things I can think of happening be it working through a FF trade, purchase of a car, home, etc. 9 times out of 10 nothing takes place. Sure, you might close 1 deal but, when the other party realizes what happens or other parties learn of the transaction, your probability of repeat or future business dwindles or goes away completely.

If that is in fact your business strategy, then trust word will get out among your peers, which in this case would be your leaguemates. Sooner rather than later you will find yourself with a significant absence of business and or trade partners. More importantly, you will find yourself overpaying to get a deal done, as what comes around goes around. Once you lose most or all credibility with the rest of the owners the price of doing business just went up. You will be forced to pay an inflated price for players moving forward due to your chosen course of action.

If you are going to initiate talks with an owner, don't go fishing and try to assume the owner is as smart if not smarter than yourself in terms of FF intelligence. It is your duty to send a fair yet negotiable first offer. More importantly, you need to realize that should you in fact decide to send something that only a 6 year old would find equitable that you might get a nasty email or phone call back, while having the agitated owner share that story with most if not all of the other owners. When that happens, realize the cost of you doing business in the league just went up.

I will listen to any reasonable offers and will respond accordingly. Anything that is a blatant fishing expedition minus a well thought out purpose is immediately disregarded but I will still respond in a timely manner noting my lack of interest. If an owner continues using the lowest common denominator offer, I will call him on it and turn the offer on him by asking if he would accept the deal on the table. Funny that I have never heard someone respond with a yes in all these years. If he still does not get it and continues, I will ask that he stop contacting me with trades.

My experience has shown me the same guy sending low ball offers does so with 100% of the league. He'll send the same blanket, one sided offer to anyone with a PC and league ownership. Fishing with a net...hunting with shotgun...throwing #### against the wall...and it is evident to everyone in the league this goes on but not to the guilty owner. He continues to think he is putting one over on folks but, if you are that guy, trust the rest of your league sees you working and the rest of the league talks, while never forgetting.

 

[GregR_2]

So to summarize, another owner volunteered the information that he was willing to overpay for your players, and asked you to give him such an offer even.

And rather than happily take him up on it and try to improve your team, you're arguing with him about the ettiquette of who should counter-offer when?

Am I the only one seeing the problem with this picture?

You have to turn that picture both ways. The fact that he would get into a discussion of whose turn let me know how serious he was or wasn't. I feel this is a case where neither party was really serious about making a trade (I wasn't for sure). Not as much etiquette argument, okay show me you are serious and he did not.

What it comes down to is improving your team. I don't understand what there is to lose about actually working with him. What is the worst that happens? You end up not trading but leaving him with the feeling you were able to try to work with him to see if there was a trade possible so he might be more willing to come to you again. And at best you improve your team.Either of those outcomes seems better to me than alienating the other owner by expecting him to make all the offers without giving him concrete feedback on what you're looking for to trade them. That amounts to fishing just as much as making a lowball initial offer does.

 

[trader jake]

a lot of quality posts here

i do find it funny when an owner says "i never/always do xxxxx". there is no one way to complete trades or negotiate. different football players need different styles of coaching and/or motivating...so do fantasy football owners

i attempt to find the undervalued players on other rosters while trading away the guys on my team that are valued higher than i feel their future production warrants. basically, buy high...sell low

 

[kbleck]

For this reason I'll usually lowball my first offer.

I NEVER counter lowball first offers, and I do a lot of trading.

Agree whole heartedly. A lowball offer is insulting on two fronts.

1. You insult my acumen if you think I would trade Shaun Alexander for Frisman Jackson.

2. Even if someone were to trade a good player for garbage, you've done a disservice to the league.

A lowball starting offer is an automatic deal breaker for me. I'll neither counter, not listen to any further offers from that owner.

I think it all depends on what you consider a lowball. I honestly dont think that a SA for Frisman trade would be considered even a serious offer. So i dont even consider that relavent.

A more "real Life" offer would be like Boldin + J.Jones for Tomlinson.

That is a more credible lowball offer that you might see someone making. But it something that could be countered. Rather than being just plain stupid.

My rules for trading:

1. Know the owners

What is their favorite NFL Team, are they partial to certain players.

2. Know trading history

Is the owner you are targeting a "trader" or are they always reluctant.

3. Offer decent value or "Big Name" players in your trade even if they are coming of injury or having a bad year. Veterans with good FF history have more value than 1 hit wonders.

4. Don't make a player offer right away. Just send an interest request first. "Are you interested in moving XXX" If they reply with no, then send an over offer.

"Even if i offered you XXX and XXX???" If they still say no then there isnt any interest and you can move on.

If they reply with "Well... that might work" Then you have got a nibble and you can try and back them down a bit and say, "Well obviously i cant move both of those players but I would do XYZ." This is where you insert players from his favorite team or "big name" players that may be on the decline etc.

This strategy gets you "in the door" and talking versus getting shutout right away.

 

[coolnerd]

So to summarize, another owner volunteered the information that he was willing to overpay for your players, and asked you to give him such an offer even.

And rather than happily take him up on it and try to improve your team, you're arguing with him about the ettiquette of who should counter-offer when?

Am I the only one seeing the problem with this picture?

You have to turn that picture both ways. The fact that he would get into a discussion of whose turn let me know how serious he was or wasn't. I feel this is a case where neither party was really serious about making a trade (I wasn't for sure). Not as much etiquette argument, okay show me you are serious and he did not.

What it comes down to is improving your team. I don't understand what there is to lose about actually working with him. What is the worst that happens? You end up not trading but leaving him with the feeling you were able to try to work with him to see if there was a trade possible so he might be more willing to come to you again. And at best you improve your team.Either of those outcomes seems better to me than alienating the other owner by expecting him to make all the offers without giving him concrete feedback on what you're looking for to trade them. That amounts to fishing just as much as making a lowball initial offer does.

Excellent reply. there is a part of me that was asking did I miss an opportunity to improve my team and that was the reason behind my post. I can't fault your logic and despite this episode most of the time I am pretty accomdating. Ironically, while this episode was going I engaged in sucess trade talks with a guy in another league, who in fact sent a blind offer as this one. The major difference was approach. He started with a legitiamate offer and then we went back forth with solid offers and short notes of what was liked or not liked about the offers. In the end, a fair trade was worked for both sides. The only lesson I can draw is that someone fairly early in the trade process needs to put real meat on end of their line. Without real bait no one is going to catch anything and both are just going to be frustrated at the end of the day.

 

[GregR_2]

The only lesson I can draw is that someone fairly early in the trade process needs to put real meat on end of their line. Without real bait no one is going to catch anything and both are just going to be frustrated at the end of the day.

When I've wanted the other guy to be the one to make the next offer (whether first or not), I've found some success in naming the players that interest me on his team, and naming some of the players on my team that, were it a win-win trade, I might be more willing to part with than others.I don't have to commit to setting the upper bound between which we're going to end up negotiating, but it gives enough information on what I'm looking for that most people don't seem to have a problem with coming back with a counter.

I've noticed others use the same tact against me too. After I send that reply, I may get back the other guy choosing a few players from the list and asking what I think it would take to make some sort of swap involving them as the primary players happen.

 

[inca911]

It doesn't matter who offers first. It also doesn't matter how fair/unfair the offer is. Every trade needs a starting point for discussion so just put something out there. Sometimes the offer is close, other times its way off. Check your ego at the door and have a conversation about how the trade improves his team and yours.

Negotiation is different when you will have future dealings vs. when you will never interact with the person again. When I'm negotiating, I generally put my position on the table first and propose something that I define as fair to me.

 

[Spike]

I don't think I've ever completed a trade with someone who initiated negotiations with a lowball offer and then thought he was entitled to a counter-offer.

You have to start low if you're the one initiating. If you open with your best offer you'll miss out on value the times that the other guy would have accepted less. We had one owner who's auto-picked team was too stacked at WR and had to trade off at a loss to get other depth, can't pass those opportunities up when the other guy might take a lesser offer.

I've found you make more trades to help your team with a good first offer, rather than get that 1 steal every couple of years. Most of the guys in my leagues know that I operate from the perspective that I try to make a good first offer, and that I don't like haggling.Edited to say - Not to mention others are more willing to trade with someone they know isn't trying to rip them off.

Excellent, not

 

[coolnerd]

The only lesson I can draw is that someone fairly early in the trade process needs to put real meat on end of their line.  Without real bait no one is going to catch anything and both are just going to be frustrated at the end of the day.

When I've wanted the other guy to be the one to make the next offer (whether first or not), I've found some success in naming the players that interest me on his team, and naming some of the players on my team that, were it a win-win trade, I might be more willing to part with than others.I don't have to commit to setting the upper bound between which we're going to end up negotiating, but it gives enough information on what I'm looking for that most people don't seem to have a problem with coming back with a counter.

This is perfect advice for the situation. In essence, some meat to the conversasion w/o totally committing to the high end.

 

[nightshift]

What is the value of the player/pick you are trading for?

Who assesses that value?

How did they arrive at that assessment?

What is their motivation to make a deal?

What their trading track record?

What is your motivation?

What is your assessment?



It's not as "cut & dry" some here would like others to believe.

How many of you bought a new car for the price on the window sticker?

How many of you offered the sales manager an offer below invoice on that car?

Were you embarrassed or offended at making the offer? Do you really think the sales manager was?

Did both of you negotiate a price?

Did you buy the car? If you did, did the sales manager get his cut?

The values each of us places on a particular player is different than the next guy. Just look at the experts' player projections.

IMO, there is no low/high offer. Just an offer & a start point for a deal. That coach is saying he wants to trade and he's looking to get that player(s). Not enough? Counter. You think the counter is too high? Counter again.

THIS IS A GAME. Play to have fun, play to win, but don't take it personal. Way too many EMOs floatin' in the pool on this one.

 

[Kit Fisto]

It's the responsibility of the interested party to make the first offer. Especially if you're not particularly looking to move any players. If I wasn't looking to move a guy, I would feel absolutely no remorse for not countering.

An example of the typical "somethin' for nuthin'" fantasy player...

Owner A: "Hey, what would it take to get Shaun Alexander off you?"

Owner B: "Well, I really wasn't looking to trade him, but if I did, you'd have to back the truck up for him."

Owner A: "What would you think of my first rounder (#8) and Dominic Rhodes?"

Owner B: "Get back to me when you're serious."

I once told a guy it would take 5 first rounders to get Marshall Faulk (in his prime) off me. He thought I was being ridiculous, but I replied that's not what his value is, that's what his value is to me.

Two entirely different and separate values.

 

[John Mamula]

Should have simply just sent him an offer that you find equitable but in your favor.