Transgender boy Mack Beggs wins Texas state girls' wrestling title (1 Viewer)

[JuniorNB]

Not allowed,  because of the genitals this  person was born with

There are some varying reports about whether or not this kid ever even applied to wrestle as a boy. This state is denying they ever did apply.

 

[Short Corner]

I'm surprised how many normally reasonable fbgs are performing mental gymnastics to try to side with the LGBT.

As opposed to the mental gymnastics required from the side that wants him to be forced to use the girls locker room and shower withthe girls but wrestle with the guys.

 

[MikeIke]

The government wants to say this person has to use the women's restroom because of the genitals this person was born with. 

This person has the right to compete in high school athletics. 

If the government says this person has to use the female bathroom,  then this person should compete against other female  athletes. 

 

[T J]

:whoosh:

I think much the same of your position. See how easy that was.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Fairness is not a part of objective reality, if there is such.  Fairness is a flawed human concept. Attempts at imposing fairness on a discordant universe may be noble, but they are, I believe, doomed to failure.  That is not to say we should abandon the pursuit of fairness. The pursuit may be its own noble reward.

In one way I am sad that children had to deal with this situation.  I hate to see innocence disabused of its brief moment.  In another I am grateful it was the young as they are often more gracious with the vagaries of life than are we adults. The children in this story seem to be conducting themselves with grace and maturity and the adults discussing it, less so.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

A) During teen years your body transforms into an adult male/female. Those changes aren't totally reversible. The earlier someone addresses it medically, the more successful the transformation will be. 

B) You are giving college kids too much credit. Based on many interactions I have with adults, I'm not sure many people are very mature or educated on this subject.

I'm just not sure this should be an option for a minor...How many decisions have we made as children that we would have done differently as an adult?

 

[T J]

The government wants to say this person has to use the women's restroom because of the genitals this person was born with. 

This person has the right to compete in high school athletics. 

If the government says this person has to use the female bathroom,  then this person should compete against other female  athletes. 

This person should not compete.

 

[Short Corner]

I think much the same of your position. See how easy that was.

You realize calling him a boy doesn't offend him, right?

 

[T J]

You realize calling him a boy doesn't offend him, right?

Why would I? She's a girl. 

 

[Ditka Butkus]

You can't buy a beer until you are 21 but as a child you can change your sex/ gender

 

[Short Corner]

Why would I? She's a girl. 

QED

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I'm just not sure this should be an option for a minor...How many decisions have we made as children that we would have done differently as an adult?

This is an interesting point.

To my knowledge there isn't a reputable doctor in the land that will tie a girls tubes at that age because she says she doesn't want to have kids. Theyre too young to make that decision.

But you wanna be a boy?  Sure, why not.

Interesting

 

[squistion]

You can't buy a beer until you are 21 but as a child you can change your sex/ gender

 

[JuniorNB]

I'm just not sure this should be an option for a minor...How many decisions have we made as children that we would have done differently as an adult?

This is the craziest part of all.  The kid can't vote or have a beer or even buy cigarettes but can make that kind of decision her sophomore year of high school. Part of that decision should have been whether or not she continues her high school sports career.

 

[Ilov80s]

I'm just not sure this should be an option for a minor...How many decisions have we made as children that we would have done differently as an adult?

That's a different conversation. The parents obviously play a large role here. Most transgendered don't just decide at at 15 that they are the wrong gender. It's been a thing since they were old enough to walk and talk. We have been wondering about my nephew. He's a twin. Since as long as he's been alive he's wanted to paint his nails, he dresses up as princesses for Halloween, wants to be a mommy, etc. His brother has been a classic boy: loved super heroes, trucks football, etc. 

Now that he is in school, he's started telling us not to buy him Little Ponies anymore because the kids at school make fun of him so he has to do boy stuff. If he's 15 and wants to transition, I don't think his parents would have a problem because they have seen this develop since birth.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Are you implying their parents are making the decision for them. 

 

[SacramentoBob]

There are significant downsides to waiting on hormone therapy. It's important to move forward early if certain. 

We all know how well teenagers judge longterm consequences.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Are you implying their parents are making the decision for them. 

All he wants to know is which bathroom

 

[Moe.]

Some of these arguments are so desperate and awful, it's embarrassing. I'm losing a ton of respect for quite a number of people. It's like you're not even living in the real world.

I feel the same way, but I'm pretty sure we are talking about different people. 

 

[SacramentoBob]

I feel the same way, but I'm pretty sure we are talking about different people. 

In an effort to be fair, I've lost respect for people on both sides of the argument.

 

[squistion]

Are you implying their parents are making the decision for them. 

I doubt few 8-10 year olds are making this decision on their own, as you imply by referring to them as a "child"

 

[Ilov80s]

We let teens drive, we let teens work, we tax teens. We should be letting teens vote. No reason to coddle them. If they and their parents want to go through with this, go for it. The teen years are physically the best time to do it. 

 

[whiskey7]

This is the craziest part of all.  The kid can't vote or have a beer or even buy cigarettes but can make that kind of decision her sophomore year of high school. Part of that decision should have been whether or not she continues her high school sports career.

The kid can't go see an R rated movie about a transgender's transformation but can actually go down that road. Think about that. 

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I doubt few 8-10 year olds are making this decision on their own, as you imply by referring to them as a "child"

I believe by law they are considered a child at / until 14

 

[Henry Ford]

There are some varying reports about whether or not this kid ever even applied to wrestle as a boy. This state is denying they ever did apply.

As I recall, they are saying no one at the tournament applied to change divisions this year. That's not quite the same thing. 

 

[Moe.]

I just love the guys who have all the answers on this. Google the Caster Semenya situation. This debate has played out at the highest levels with people a lot smarter than all of us, and even they admit it's a tough situation to address and there aren't always going to be good answers for everything. They aren't even sure elevated testosterone levels benefit hypoandrogenic women. Not sure why this is a right/left issue, but that is the case with everything on this board I guess. 

 

[Henry Ford]

This is an interesting point.

To my knowledge there isn't a reputable doctor in the land that will tie a girls tubes at that age because she says she doesn't want to have kids. Theyre too young to make that decision.

But you wanna be a boy?  Sure, why not.

Interesting

Hormone therapy is a far cry from surgery.  I'm not aware of many/any surgeons performing full transition Surgery at this age. 

 

[MikeIke]

The state says that this person is a female because of the genitals this person was born with.  So,  this person competes as a female. 

This person wins the state championship in the division the state decided this person should compete in. 

If you feel the state should get to decide things like this,  don't complain. This person was doing what they were instructed to do. 

You can't have it both ways. 

 

[Ilov80s]

The kid can't go see an R rated movie about a transgender's transformation but can actually go down that road. Think about that. 

Actually someone under 18 could do both as long as their parent is with them.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

So you are a child at 14 and an adult after that age in every jurisdiction in this country. Okie Dokie.

No You are a minor between 14 and 18

 

[facook]

I have NOT read this thread.  Sorry if it's been mentioned, and I'm not sure the "correct" answer.  I have just had this thought -- pre-frontal cortex doesn't develop till @ 25...should anyone under the age of 25 be allowed to switch genders?  (This might not apply.  Maybe {s}e didn't switch.  Like I said...I haven't read and not sure if it's been broasted in this thread.)

 

[Henry Ford]

I have NOT read this thread.  Sorry if it's been mentioned, and I'm not sure the "correct" answer.  I have just had this thought -- pre-frontal cortex doesn't develop till @ 25...should anyone under the age of 25 be allowed to switch genders?  (This might not apply.  Maybe {s}e didn't switch.  Like I said...I haven't read and not sure if it's been broasted in this thread.)

I'm all for defining adulthood at 25, but that would definitely kill military recruiting. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I have NOT read this thread.  Sorry if it's been mentioned, and I'm not sure the "correct" answer.  I have just had this thought -- pre-frontal cortex doesn't develop till @ 25...should anyone under the age of 25 be allowed to switch genders?  (This might not apply.  Maybe {s}e didn't switch.  Like I said...I haven't read and not sure if it's been broasted in this thread.)

Fwiw, I tend to agree

 

[facook]

I'm all for defining adulthood at 25, but that would definitely kill military recruiting. 

Great point.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I'm all for defining adulthood at 25, but that would definitely kill military recruiting. 

Agree again

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Kids who are having a difficult time in school due to being different generally don't want to fit in by calling more attention to themselves..

 

[squistion]

No You are a minor between 14 and 18

You didn't refer to or use the word "minor" and specifically said "child" and as usual you had no idea what your are talking about as child is not legally synonymous with minor in this country.

And minor is generally considered anyone under the age of 18 is most jurisdictions,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_(law


United States[edit]


In the United States as of 1995, minor is generally legally defined as a person under the age of 18. Although in the context of alcohol or gambling laws, people under the age of 21 may also sometimes be referred to as "minors".[1][2] However, not all minors are considered "juveniles" in terms of criminal responsibility. As is frequently the case in the United States, the laws vary widely by state.

Under this distinction, those considered juveniles are usually tried in juvenile court, and they may be afforded other special protections. For example, in some states a parent or guardian must be present during police questioning, or their names may be kept confidential when they are accused of a crime. For many crimes (especially more violent crimes), the age at which a minor may be tried as an adult is variable below the age of 18 or (less often) below 16.[15] For example, in Kentucky, the lowest age a juvenile may be tried as an adult, no matter how heinous the crime, is 14.

The death penalty for those who have committed a crime while under the age of 18 was discontinued by the U.S. Supreme Court case Roper v. Simmons in 2005.[16] The court's 5–4 decision was written by Justice Kennedy and joined by Justices Ginsburg, Stevens, Breyer, and Souter, and cited international law, child developmental science, and many other factors in reaching its conclusion.

The twenty-sixth amendment to the U.S. Constitution, ratified in 1971, granted all citizens the right to vote in every state, in every election, from the age of 18.

Main article: Minors detained in the global war on terror
The U.S. Department of Defense took the position that they would not consider "enemy combatants" held in extrajudicial detention in the Guantanamo Bay detainment camps minors unless they were less than sixteen years old.[verification needed] In any event, they only separated three of more than a dozen detainees under 16 from the adult prison population. Several dozen detainees between sixteen and eighteen were detained with the adult prison population. Now those under 18 are kept separate, in line with the age of majority and world expectations.

Some states, including Florida, have passed laws that allow a person accused of an extremely heinous crime, such as murder, to be tried as an adult, regardless of age. These laws, however, have been challenged by the American Civil Liberties Union. An estimated 250,000 youth are tried, sentenced, or incarcerated as adults every year across the United States.[17]

 

[Henry Ford]

Kids who are having a difficult time in school due to being different generally don't want to fit in by calling more attention to themselves..

Kids who are having a difficult time in school due to being different often have a very different experience after bringing tremendous positive attention to the school by, for instance, winning a state championship in something.  

 

[Ditka Butkus]

You didn't refer to or use the word "minor" and specifically said "child" and as usual you had no idea what your are talking about as child is not legally synonymous with minor in this country.

And minor is generally considered anyone under the age of 18 is most jurisdictions,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_(law


United States[edit]


In the United States as of 1995, minor is generally legally defined as a person under the age of 18. Although in the context of alcohol or gambling laws, people under the age of 21 may also sometimes be referred to as "minors".[1][2] However, not all minors are considered "juveniles" in terms of criminal responsibility. As is frequently the case in the United States, the laws vary widely by state.

Under this distinction, those considered juveniles are usually tried in juvenile court, and they may be afforded other special protections. For example, in some states a parent or guardian must be present during police questioning, or their names may be kept confidential when they are accused of a crime. For many crimes (especially more violent crimes), the age at which a minor may be tried as an adult is variable below the age of 18 or (less often) below 16.[15] For example, in Kentucky, the lowest age a juvenile may be tried as an adult, no matter how heinous the crime, is 14.

The death penalty for those who have committed a crime while under the age of 18 was discontinued by the U.S. Supreme Court case Roper v. Simmons in 2005.[16] The court's 5–4 decision was written by Justice Kennedy and joined by Justices Ginsburg, Stevens, Breyer, and Souter, and cited international law, child developmental science, and many other factors in reaching its conclusion.

The twenty-sixth amendment to the U.S. Constitution, ratified in 1971, granted all citizens the right to vote in every state, in every election, from the age of 18.

Main article: Minors detained in the global war on terror
The U.S. Department of Defense took the position that they would not consider "enemy combatants" held in extrajudicial detention in the Guantanamo Bay detainment camps minors unless they were less than sixteen years old.[verification needed] In any event, they only separated three of more than a dozen detainees under 16 from the adult prison population. Several dozen detainees between sixteen and eighteen were detained with the adult prison population. Now those under 18 are kept separate, in line with the age of majority and world expectations.

Some states, including Florida, have passed laws that allow a person accused of an extremely heinous crime, such as murder, to be tried as an adult, regardless of age. These laws, however, have been challenged by the American Civil Liberties Union. An estimated 250,000 youth are tried, sentenced, or incarcerated as adults every year across the United States.[17]

I was simply responding to your incorrect statement that you are a child until 14 and then become an adult...So maybe you should point the you are wrong finger in your direction...I feel sorry for you as you have to be one of the most unpleasant people on this boards..Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why you have to always act like a complete ###.

 

[squistion]

I was simply responding to your incorrect statement that you are a child until 14 and then become an adult...So maybe you should point the you are wrong finger in your direction...I feel sorry for you as you have to be one of the most unpleasant people on this boards..Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why you have to always act like a complete ###.

Dude, your exact words, which I was responding to because you used the word "child" and said that a child can change their sex gender (not a minor and not a 14-18 year old as you later corrected it to):

      1 hour ago, Ditka Butkus said:

You can't buy a beer until you are 21 but as a child you can change your sex/ gender

 

[MikeIke]

No You are a minor between 14 and 18

Unless you commit murder 

ETA : are accused of committing murder

 

[whiskey7]

Actually someone under 18 could do both as long as their parent is with them.

Re: the movies, I said as much earlier in the thread. Point is Mack was able to get the ball rolling on physically transforming from girl to boy at an age he and his buddies from school could not go see "The Danish Girl" in the theaters by themselves. That doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Ilov80s]

Re: the movies, I said as much earlier in the thread. Point is Mack was able to get the ball rolling on physically transforming from girl to boy at an age he and his buddies from school could not go see "The Danish Girl" in the theaters by themselves. That doesn't seem right to me.

He did it with his parents. His parents could have taken him to see The Danish Girl. This isn't making any kind of point. 

 

[The Busy The Tired]

Re: the movies, I said as much earlier in the thread. Point is Mack was able to get the ball rolling on physically transforming from girl to boy at an age he and his buddies from school could not go see "The Danish Girl" in the theaters by themselves. That doesn't seem right to me.

Yeah bro, it's a mad world we're living in but I think 8 years of Trump will help reverse these tragedies against nature.

 

[MikeIke]

As for the sports thing, It seems easy. 

If, as the result of your transition, you want to compete with a gender to whom you have a natural disadvantage, that's fine. If you want to compete with a gender to whom you have a natural ad advantage, no dice. 

Girls want to transition and compete with the boys? Absolutely. 6'8" Jimmy wants to transition and play hoops with the girls? Not so fast. 

The caster semeneya situation is different than this. She is intersex, not transitioning from one to the other, if I remember correctly 

This person wanted to compete against boys,  but the state wouldn't allow it. So,  this person competes  against girls and wins the state championship. Now the state has a problem? Make up your mind, State.

 

[[scooter]]

As for the sports thing, It seems easy. 

If, as the result of your transition, you want to compete with a gender to whom you have a natural disadvantage, that's fine. If you want to compete with a gender to whom you have a natural ad advantage, no dice. 

Girls want to transition and compete with the boys? Absolutely. 6'8" Jimmy wants to transition and play hoops with the girls? Not so fast. 

What if 5'2" Jimmy has been taking estrogen for 2 years?

 

[Moe.]

As for the sports thing, It seems easy. 

If, as the result of your transition, you want to compete with a gender to whom you have a natural disadvantage, that's fine. If you want to compete with a gender to whom you have a natural ad advantage, no dice. 

Girls want to transition and compete with the boys? Absolutely. 6'8" Jimmy wants to transition and play hoops with the girls? Not so fast. 

The caster semeneya situation is different than this. She is intersex, not transitioning from one to the other, if I remember correctly 

According to Henry a few pages back the law won't allow you to consider the direction of the transition. I bring up the Semenya situation just to illustrate how complex this issue of gender in sport is. Even the Court of Arbitration for Sport isn't really sure how to best handle these types of questions and they are “unable to conclude that hyperandrogenic female athletes may benefit from such a significant performance advantage that it is necessary to exclude them from competing in the female category" - meaning that they aren't sure if the extra testosterone is an advantage. 

I was also hoping that by bringing up Semenya people would stop mentioning the "elective" aspect of the whole transgender thing. Even if it isn't elective, people still have a problem with it, and it shouldn't really matter.  

 

[cockroach]

But seriously, I'm glad I grew up when  I did and didn't have to deal with this while competing in organized athletics.

Agree with the last part... but thinking about gender and the spectrum of it... I was pretty mean to feminine boys growing up.  We all were, pretty much, but that's no excuse.  That's kind of what happens to people who are different, unless we're taught to be tolerant and accepting of it... just look at the #### even gingers can get. 

I think it would've been nice to have been taught that boys and girls think and feel differently than each other because of the different chemicals/hormones and stuff in our bodies and occasionally, but rarely, there will be boys that think and feel more like girls and girls that think and feel more like boys.

 

[cockroach]

You can't buy a beer until you are 21 but as a child you can change your sex/ gender

Yea, that seems like the kind of decision you would want to have a "drink and think" about.

 

[whiskey7]

He did it with his parents. His parents could have taken him to see The Danish Girl. This isn't making any kind of point. 

I understand his parents were part of this process. We're not talking about getting a tattoo or pierced tongue here. Physically changing one's body from girl to boy to align with what they are feeling is a pretty major decision. I would think we would only want that decision to be made by someone on their own behalf once deemed fit to make that kind of long term serious call. Point is this decision was made before Mack had reached the age he is even permitted to choose what movies he can buy a ticket to on his own.