The Busy The Tired
Footballguy
Oh, I get it. You're trying to falsely equivalize transgender people to black people.
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Transgender boy Mack Beggs wins Texas state girls' wrestling title (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter SHIZNITTTT
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Nothing, just like trans people. Which is why people who use the argument you just used, when applying it to black people, are rightly considered bigots.
The Busy The Tired
Footballguy
No, there is definitely something wrong with transgenders. If you're wondering where our opinions begin to differ, it is right here.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
It actually surprises me that non-emergency medical gender procedures are performed under the age of 18.JuniorNB said:
T J
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
I'm not reading through 14 pages of this to see if this has already been discussed or not, but did anyone mention this is an under-age person being allowed to alter their gender identity before reaching legal adulthood?
Why do we as a society allow this? I didn't know anything about myself or the world at 17 and certainly shouldn't have been allowed to make major life-altering decisions. I don't understand the rush. If someone is truly transgendered, won't they still be that way at 18? Can the hormone therapy and surgeries, etc. wait until they are an adult? How much of a child's decisions are controlled/affected by their parents at that age?
Why do we as a society allow this? I didn't know anything about myself or the world at 17 and certainly shouldn't have been allowed to make major life-altering decisions. I don't understand the rush. If someone is truly transgendered, won't they still be that way at 18? Can the hormone therapy and surgeries, etc. wait until they are an adult? How much of a child's decisions are controlled/affected by their parents at that age?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
I thought I was looking at megan rapinoeWeebs210 said:
http://speakerdata2.s3.amazonaws.com/photo/image/879574/unnamed.jpg
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It has been discussed, yes. It's a tough call because waiting has permanent effects on the bone structure, especially the face of a person. Ideally one should go through the transition as close to puberty as possible.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Basically, the decision is "do I do this hormone therapy now, which is basically reversible by stopping if I decide not to go through with it, or do I risk possibly having a decidedly male/female looking face on a decidedly female/male body for the rest of my life." It's a tough call.
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Insoxicated
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I'm not looking for traction. I've won in court with these arguments, in a school lawsuit setting. I'm not particularly concerned with whether or not Trump1 and Trump2 are convinced. (Or is it Trump2 and Trump1? They can hate anything anything anything under the sun...)
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Godsbrother
Footballguy
It seems odd to me that we don't allow minors to vote, drink, or smoke tobacco but are okay with hormone therapy.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I'm sure. It definitely isn't immediately apparent in reading about people just how important this is.
16 year old non-trans kids are getting breast implants these days. It's a different world.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Then in contrast, going forward with it has permanent effects on the bone structure, right? When the vast majority of the population is NOT transgendered, I think it is less of a risk to not allow underage children to undergo hormone therapy. At least let them make the decision as an adult, not while they are still going through the hormonal stages and have influence from their parents.
On the flip side, imagine if there was some kind of treatment to help develop "straightness" and "normalcy" in a child. Would you be OK with an underage child still being influenced and directed by their parents to go through this treatment knowing full well they may actually not be straight or fixed gender? While it may be reversible, the very reason you state for needing to do it is the lasting effects.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
But is it a reasonable and acceptable practice is the question.
There are tons of things that "are what they are", doesn't make them acceptable.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I'm glad I'm not a sophomore in High School. I lack the maturity for it. Good luck kids, I hope you do better than we did. Please know this, when I was not being self-indulgent I actually tried to do the right thing.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
To your first point, sort of - depending on whether going female to male or male to female, the lasting effects are very different.
As for the second, again, I don't believe anyone should be doing either thing unless it's discussed with a medical doctor and everyone agrees that it's the right thing. I have no doubt there are doctors who push too hard for this or not hard enough. It is a tough call. But I also know it is (in a good way) a life altering moment for many trans youth. I don't have stats for how many people start and then don't complete transition, but anecdotally it is a much smaller percentage than those that do complete.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Neanderthal. Not applying any boundaries or social norms (other than having a beer or a cigarette) to our youth has made our country so much greater.
Please try to keep up or crawl back into your cave. TIA
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Yeah and I think I disagree. Unless a physician can make a case for it being a medical necessity I think it should wait until you're 18.
We shouldn't allow transition hormones to minors.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I agree with Henry Ford on some points and disagree on others, but I have to say that he does a really good job of explaining this issue to people like me who don't know much about it, and he puts up with a lot of stupidity without losing his cool.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Thank goodness we don't run out of likes anymore, I would've run out of them on Henry Ford posts and I'm only on page 2 of this thread.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I will say this, and its application may go no further than me, but I had a pretty comprehensive idea of my sexuality even before I had an idea of sexuality. By first grade I remember having attractions. Hell, it may have been earlier but I have very specific memories from then. By my early teen years I was willful enough to defy my parents no matter their attempts to influence me. Was I uncertain and changeable in my views, certainly, but my sexual identity was not a view, it was fundamental to who I was and who I am. This was not a matter of parental influence or guidance, it was innate.
I have a tough time understanding transsexuals, among others. I have no experience with which to analyze their imperfect verbal reflections of their experience. I am intellectually adrift. It is easy to wonder whether they are confused or deluded. I wonder maybe they will grow out of it. Then I think perhaps their certainty is based upon the exact same certitude I had as to my sexuality. It was not a thought, it was not an opinion, it was something organic, integrated, immutable, and I knew this.
I have a tough time understanding transsexuals, among others. I have no experience with which to analyze their imperfect verbal reflections of their experience. I am intellectually adrift. It is easy to wonder whether they are confused or deluded. I wonder maybe they will grow out of it. Then I think perhaps their certainty is based upon the exact same certitude I had as to my sexuality. It was not a thought, it was not an opinion, it was something organic, integrated, immutable, and I knew this.
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Zow
Footballguy
But arguably this isn't his choice. Could you imagine how ####ty it must be to feel like a guy but have girl parts? And to experience this in middle and high school?JuniorNB said:
Good god those ages were plenty tough for the many of us who thankfully liked our parts and were heterosexual. I couldn't imagine being transgendered and the notion that anybody would choose to be that way is absurd.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
How common is gender reassignment regretted, do we have any reputable studies?
If wrestling meant so much to her, I'm sure she (or her parents) did their homework and knew that the state of Texas wouldn't allow her to wrestle as a boy. So that's where the choice came in. She had a choice to start this as a sophomore or wait till she's a senior. She chose to start as a sophomore. Then, he also chose to wrestle girls, knowing he had more than 10x the testosterone level of any of them. I'm as liberal as they come. And I'm all for gay marriage or guys becoming chicks or vice versa. To each his own. But I'm also for a fair competitive balance in sports. Especially a sport as physical as wrestling.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Very kind of you to say. It's all an act. I actually look like Mozart on a keyboard during all of this, just flailing like a madman and filled with anger.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I think reasonable people can disagree on this, and I certainly see the perspective. I'm not fully comfortable with it, but I do know the consequences and benefits, and I can say that some people are definitely better off for having done it.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Here is where things get super murky to me. What does the bolded even mean? Does it mean they like guns and fighting and superhero stuff? Does it mean you are attracted to women? Does it mean you pick your nose and belch and fart? Does it mean you wish you had a penis to rub on?
Also, I don't always buy the "why would anyone choose that way" argument. There are a ton of kids who grew their hair out into unpopular styles and dressed in strange ways and acted odd and aloof simply for the shock value and the attention they got. Remember the first goth kids? They were considered outliers and freaks, but they did it anyway and got some kind of enjoyment out of their style choices and it had nothing to do with some naturally ingrained desires. Have you seen the outpouring of support and love that people get nowadays for coming out? Caitlyn Jenner won an award simply for going through with a gender reassignment. There is a definite draw to being different and standing out that some kids cling to. Trusting that a 13-17 year old is doing something out of some pure motive is a little bit naive, IMO.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I've had co-workers ask me what was wrong sometimes when I'm in the middle of some passionate debate in the FFA. I've really tried to dial them back a great deal lately, but still get sucked in on occasion.
I will say as someone who has been opposed to many of your stances, I respect the hell out of you and your work.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Yep and I am sure you are correct that some (probably most) are happier beginning the process sooner rather than later. However my perspective is this is life-changing decision and in general those shouldn't be made by minors.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
There are no recent, reputable studies that really quantify instances of regret in this sense to my knowledge. One of the problems in doing a study like this would be a "control" group (that wants gender reassignment but it is withheld from them) would be unethical.
Opponents of transgender advocacy tend to point to a study that showed an 18% suicide attempt rate from 1998 in the U.S. and Holland among people who had gender reassignment surgery. The two main issues that jump out to me about that are: 1. What is the suicide attempt rate among people who have not had the surgery but who identify as transgender (I've seen numbers as high as over 40%) and 2. Is a suicide attempt really indicative of regret about having the surgery?
So I don't know that we'll ever have more than anecdotal evidence on that question. Numbers on having surgery to reverse gender reassignment surgery might be something we can compile, but only if people agree to have their health records released, and that's probably a rough road.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Again, kind of you to say. I do try not to be a complete ###hole most of the time. Sometimes I even succeed.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The past several weeks have been lead-up to Mardi Gras around here. Nothing gets done in the legal world until Wednesday. Additionally, I do a lot of work on weekends - much of my day-to-day involves getting on the phone with clients I can literally do nothing for right now. I have a few hundred clients in the BP Medical Benefits Settlement related to the Deepwater Horizon disaster, and I get roughly 25-40 calls per day dealing with that. While I'm taking those calls and giving the exact same answer to everyone, I often peruse the board and discuss matters that I find important.
Most of my practice involves no billing whatsoever - it's contingency-fee based, so there's no keeping track of my time.
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I enjoy reading your thoughts and expertise in general, I find your experiences on this topic in particular to be very educational and interesting.
whiskey7
Footballguy
Wondering this myself. I am among those questioning how young is too young when it comes to a decision of this magnitude. When I look at some of the decisions we prohibit a 15 yr old from making for/by themselves but then see what he was allowed to choose (in this case), it doesn't seem right to me. Which doesn't mean its wrong...just doesn't seem right.
Mack cant legally get a tattoo in TX until 18 but was allowed to start the physical transformation from girl to boy at 15
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I agree with this. You and I have been going back and forth on this issue from the start of this thread and you've remained respectful. Kudos my friend.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Great, now if I post that you're just like Hitler I look like the jerk. Well played, Herr NB. Well played.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
This is definitely the most complicated issue involved, from my perspective. When you have someone who may someday view the choice as the same thing as deciding you're going to be a princess astronaut supermodel at age 7, you may be causing permanent issues. I think this is the sort of thing that whole families and medical teams need to sign off on to make an informed decision with the whole group of people, especially the child (away from the parents) with a qualified psychiatric/psychological professional.
Even so, there are certainly risks involved. There are risks the other way too, though.
For the record, I'm quite liberal. I have no problem with gay marriage or transsexuals. Voted for Obama twice and I hate Trump with a passion. My stance on this is totally from the viewpoint of my athletics days and my being an athlete's parent days. The humongous advantage this guy had from having more than 10-times the testosterone in his system then his competitors is truly against the spirit of high school athletics. Rules clearly have to be changed. But on a personal level, I hope this person has a great life as a male. I wish him the best.
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