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UFC wagering: no longer stuck with the old thread title. The window to change it is here! (4 Viewers)

GOB said:
I really don't see how he could cut to 145 again. I see nobody in that division, outside of Aldo, that is a money fight at this point.

Seems like the smart move to me.
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I think he can make 145 -- although it's probably a rough cut for him. IMO, any fight with McGregor is a money fight -- Aldo, Holloway, Edgar, Pettis etc at FW carry pretty much as recognition with the casuals as do Alvarez, RDA, and the top guys at lightweight. By far the biggest $$$ fight within the realm of vague possibility would be against a returning GSP, but that's a horrible matchup for McGregor -- giving up a ton of size against possibly the best MMA wrestler in history -- it would have 50-45 loss via dry humping written all over it.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
I think he can make 145 -- although it's probably a rough cut for him. IMO, any fight with McGregor is a money fight -- Aldo, Holloway, Edgar, Pettis etc at FW carry pretty much as recognition with the casuals as do Alvarez, RDA, and the top guys at lightweight. By far the biggest $$$ fight within the realm of vague possibility would be against a returning GSP, but that's a horrible matchup for McGregor -- giving up a ton of size against possibly the best MMA wrestler in history -- it would have 50-45 loss via dry humping written all over it.
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Go on...

 
Coeur de Lion said:
Alvarez is going to hold out for the $$$ fight with McGregor, and won't want anything to do with Khabib who is a terrible stylistic matchup. The UFC has really created a huge mess with the catering to guys wanting fights based on money instead of rankings -- it's really getting a pro wrasslin' type vibe with the call outs and angling for the big payday over just fighting the best opponents. Alvarez and McGregor should both #### and defend their belts against the top contenders in their divisions. If they want to play the moneyweight superfight game, vacate the belts and go for it, but stop holding up the divisions.
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agree rankings should mean something, but I will definitely dispute that Khabib should be the #1 contendor. 1 fight in 2 years against Hoctor (guarantee that spelling is off, it was the first, and last time I heard of the guy) on a 2-3 week notice and certainly didn't look like a world beater. Without a doubt, RDA or Tony would easily have a  better argument. I also think Nate could have an argument with him doing the whole McGreggor stuff, but I think he might be a better fight to have with Khabib. if not that, give Khabib Barbosa, Chiesa, Michael Johnson, or Will Brooks.

Alvarez isn't demanding anything, and he is right in that he fought all top ranked guys before the belt. Look at his path vs. Khabib's, it is a joke.

and the guy Khabib beat was Horcher:   http://rankingmma.com/ufc-rankings/lightweight/

 
modogg said:
agree rankings should mean something, but I will definitely dispute that Khabib should be the #1 contendor. 1 fight in 2 years against Hoctor (guarantee that spelling is off, it was the first, and last time I heard of the guy) on a 2-3 week notice and certainly didn't look like a world beater. Without a doubt, RDA or Tony would easily have a  better argument. I also think Nate could have an argument with him doing the whole McGreggor stuff, but I think he might be a better fight to have with Khabib. if not that, give Khabib Barbosa, Chiesa, Michael Johnson, or Will Brooks.

Alvarez isn't demanding anything, and he is right in that he fought all top ranked guys before the belt. Look at his path vs. Khabib's, it is a joke.

and the guy Khabib beat was Horcher:   http://rankingmma.com/ufc-rankings/lightweight/
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I agree 100% and wasn't as much making a case for Khabib as I was making a case against guys like Alvarez and Woodley with zero defenses calling for money fights or super fights -- defend a few times first and establish something.  I'd agree that RDA or Ferguson are more deserving than Khabib given his layoff -- but they are also booked to fight each other ATM. Nate not so much IMO as he's 2-3 in his last 5 at LW and 3-4 in his last 7 overall. I did read that Alvarez refused to sign to fight Khabib, though, and I'm definitely not a fan at all of champions trying to pick and choose who they get. McGregor is a far more egregious example IMO -- it's absurd that Aldo hasn't had a rematch yet while McGregor twice fought a mid-tier LW at WW, and is now angling for a LW title shot despite zero fights at LW in the UFC. Edgar also deserved a FW shot but had to wait, and Holloway as well at FW. The tail is wagging the dog here, and it's bad for the integrity of the sport.

 
AhrnCityPahnder said:
Dana White can't want Khabib as a champ.   considerably Less marketable than Aldo.   
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Plus he gets hurt all the time too... We'd see a defense every year and a half or so, if we're lucky. Dana is probably still bitter that Pettis lost LOL.

But I'd bet that in Dana's eyes, Khabib as LW champ would box McGregor in at FW where he belongs though as McGregor would want zero part of getting grapple-effed by Khabib.

 
Maybe they should do away with some of these huge paydays for personalities and instead pay people based on rankings. If you are the champ, you get x dollars per fight; if you are in the top 5 you get y dollars per fight, etc. 

I know there are a LOT of problems with doing something like that, but it seems like they could work something out where people start fighting to become champion instead of looking to fight the biggest personality. 

 
kutta said:
Maybe they should do away with some of these huge paydays for personalities and instead pay people based on rankings. If you are the champ, you get x dollars per fight; if you are in the top 5 you get y dollars per fight, etc. 

I know there are a LOT of problems with doing something like that, but it seems like they could work something out where people start fighting to become champion instead of looking to fight the biggest personality. 
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They pay the people that bring in the money :shrug:

Personally, I don't care about the titles. I'd rather watch the better fights. McGregor v Diaz or Cowboy vs Lawler are far more entertaining than Bisping/DJ/Alvares vs whomever. 

 
Cliff Clavin said:
They pay the people that bring in the money :shrug:  
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It's amazing the # of people that don't get this. (that includes fighters)  Put asses in seats and you get paid. It's a ####### business.

Idiots like Cat Zingano should either get a promoter or learn to promote herself. No one cares if you've worked all your life to make to UFC. Great story. A great story that Isn't bringing money.

 
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Excited to see Chael in Bellator. They mentioned also on MMA beat today, thought when they signed him he'd be perfect for the Dana White role in the future there. They need someone like him to promote fights/events. To me, that's where they're currently coming up short. That and they need to slow down the # of televised events. I'm sure he'll do a few fights -- not sure about all 6 in his contract -- but ultimately I think his biggest value will be promoting their product. Coker isn't that guy.

Rory may be the best fighter they've acquired from UFC but Chael IMO will be the longest lasting and most important acquisition for the company. 

 
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So who has gotten paid good money and not earned it through their fighting expertise or resume, but rather for marketability? Conner and CM Punk definitely, and then i guess we have Sage Northcutt and PVZ that are possibly same. Not sure who else though? and i for one like the champ fighting based on rankings, but for whatever reason i am really ok with Bisping vs. Hendo. I think Hendo has earned it, same with Bisping. i think we all know this is one and done (if either lose no immediate rematch. 

i completely agree Woodley has no right to call his shots, but Eddie has some, and it's a fight that does make sense. I don't see McGreggor going back to 145 at this point and it seems like there is no real push for it either (Aldo-McGreggor would sell but some good MMA media talked about the over promotion of that fight and how long it lasted burned it out). McGreggor is way too small for 170 so 155 makes sense. he seems to have the clout to get an immediate title shot. all the MMA fans that would be against it are probably 1/4 of the fans who would pay for his immediate shot. it's a weird situation, and i am really not sure the answer. Dana/UFC really did create this monster, and i don't know how they cage it again

ETA: also have to think new owners of UFC want some return on their investment, and that equals Conner fighting

 
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Kimbo was another guy that got paid off of marketability (sort of).

If Conor gives up on the FW division entirely, what happens if/when he loses to Eddie? Is he just another mediocre LW? Cuz that division is pretty stacked.

 
  1. Pay fighters according to their worth to the UFC brand.
  2. Assign title shots and rankings according to their merits as a fighter.
If you want to give a guy lots of money because he attracts views to UFC, fine.  That's smart business.  But at least let the matchmaking be somewhat legitimate.

 
Scary that you put Mcgregor and Punk in the same sentence like that.  I know McG has created a hype train out of control, but he's also been very successful.  

 
Craig_MiamiFL said:
It's amazing the # of people that don't get this. (that includes fighters)  Put asses in seats and you get paid. It's a ####### business.

Idiots like Cat Zingano should either get a promoter or learn to promote herself. No one cares if you've worked all your life to make to UFC. Great story. A great story that Isn't bringing money.
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The fact that the Mcgregor  vs Diaz non title fights were 2 of the highest money grossing fights proves that titles have nothing to do with getting paid the most....that fight sold because it captured the public's attention through great promotion and personality...and it lived up to the hype ...which bodes well for both of them down the road...it IS the entertainment business whether people want to admit that or not....it needs a certain WWE feel to it to sell

 
SacramentoBob said:
  1. Pay fighters according to their worth to the UFC brand.
  2. Assign title shots and rankings according to their merits as a fighter.
If you want to give a guy lots of money because he attracts views to UFC, fine.  That's smart business.  But at least let the matchmaking be somewhat legitimate.
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This.

Although I'd add that they also need to pay the lower tier guys significantly more. I read an article that laid out how fighter pay only represents 13% of the revenue in the UFC. As a reference point athletes in the big four sports get between 40 - 50%. If MMA were a more attractive career path financially we'd see more high level athletes and better fights. And if the mid-range fighters actually made a decent living wage. we'd see a lot less posturing and less of the ridiculous call outs trying to get the big fight out of them.

 
modogg said:
So who has gotten paid good money and not earned it through their fighting expertise or resume, but rather for marketability? Conner and CM Punk definitely,
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I don't understand the Connor inclusion here.  The guy had 14 fights before he even got to the UFC.  

His first fight in the UFC (15th of his career) he was on an $8k to show, $8k to win bonus.

His second fight in the UFC (16th of his career) he moved up to only $12k to show, $12k to win.

McGreggor's UFC salary continued to climb as the wins piled up until it became clear he was the main draw and was paid accordingly.

 
NewlyRetired said:
I don't understand the Connor inclusion here.  The guy had 14 fights before he even got to the UFC.  

His first fight in the UFC (15th of his career) he was on an $8k to show, $8k to win bonus.

His second fight in the UFC (16th of his career) he moved up to only $12k to show, $12k to win.

McGreggor's UFC salary continued to climb as the wins piled up until it became clear he was the main draw and was paid accordingly.
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Yeah, him and Punk are not in the same stratosphere. Punk was paid solely for his name. McGregor built his name in the UFC and is being paid for his promotional skills and the upper tier talent to go with it. 

ETA: and a resume that includes wins over Aldo, Diaz, Holloway, Poirer and Mendes ain't too shabby.

 
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NewlyRetired said:
I don't understand the Connor inclusion here.  The guy had 14 fights before he even got to the UFC.  

His first fight in the UFC (15th of his career) he was on an $8k to show, $8k to win bonus.

His second fight in the UFC (16th of his career) he moved up to only $12k to show, $12k to win.

McGreggor's UFC salary continued to climb as the wins piled up until it became clear he was the main draw and was paid accordingly.
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For me, the issue isn't with pay at all. He should get huge money based on the eyeballs he brings. My issue lies with him getting the FW title shot in the first place based on a gimme win vs. Dennis Siver and now keeping the FW belt and angling for a 3rd fight in a row outside of the division, which would happen to be another undeserved title shot at LW. I have no problem with anyone wanting to fight at "money-weight" and just taking fights based the payday, but if you are holding a belt, IMO you need to be defending it against the top contenders at that weight. If he gave up the featherweight strap I'd have zero issue with any of it, although IMO he needs a few wins over top guys at LW before getting a crack at that belt.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
For me, the issue isn't with pay at all. He should get huge money based on the eyeballs he brings. My issue lies with him getting the FW title shot in the first place based on a gimme win vs. Dennis Siver and now keeping the FW belt and angling for a 3rd fight in a row outside of the division, which would happen to be another undeserved title shot at LW. I have no problem with anyone wanting to fight at "money-weight" and just taking fights based the payday, but if you are holding a belt, IMO you need to be defending it against the top contenders at that weight. If he gave up the featherweight strap I'd have zero issue with any of it, although IMO he needs a few wins over top guys at LW before getting a crack at that belt.
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Conor had solid wins prior to that Siver fight.  Also, based on the results, he was clearly ready for the title shot.  Problem at LW is, who deserves the shot?  Khabib has one win in last 2.5 years and it was over Darrell Horcher. You could make RDA rematch, but that's nothing sexy that many would be intrigued by.  Maybe Tony Ferguson is most "deserving" but that fight wouldn't be a big draw.  I have no problem with Conor getting LW title shot.  Also, as for him not getting stripped of FW title, I completely agree with you.  Makes no sense that they haven't stripped him or forced him to defend it.

 
TheBottomLine said:
Conor had solid wins prior to that Siver fight.  Also, based on the results, he was clearly ready for the title shot.  Problem at LW is, who deserves the shot?  Khabib has one win in last 2.5 years and it was over Darrell Horcher. You could make RDA rematch, but that's nothing sexy that many would be intrigued by.  Maybe Tony Ferguson is most "deserving" but that fight wouldn't be a big draw.  I have no problem with Conor getting LW title shot.  Also, as for him not getting stripped of FW title, I completely agree with you.  Makes no sense that they haven't stripped him or forced him to defend it.
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Im as big a fan of Conor as you`ll ever see  ...but yes ..he needs to just give that FW belt up...hes never going to get down to that weight again ...moving up in down weight classes like that takes a huge toll on your body...it will shorten his career if he continues to to it ...stay at 155 and live there

 
BustedKnuckles said:
Im as big a fan of Conor as you`ll ever see  ...but yes ..he needs to just give that FW belt up...hes never going to get down to that weight again ...moving up in down weight classes like that takes a huge toll on your body...it will shorten his career if he continues to to it ...stay at 155 and live there
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I think that there are more compelling fights for him at FW, personally, though. Pettis would be a great fight, and Aldo and Edgar are both HOF level fighters currently at their peak. Given how much Holloway has improved, that rematch makes a ton of sense too IMO. Plus there's always Cub and Barao (assuming he gets it back together at some point) for sheer stand up war entertainment. I don't see anything more compelling at LW, personally. He'd have to fight giant wrestlers like Khabib and Ferguson at LW and I'm pretty sure that isn't what he's looking for at all. All assuming he can make the weight, of course, but he's never had a problem with that AFAIK.

 
SacramentoBob said:
Conor has as much chance of fighting at FW again as Carano does at coming back to MMA.
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Any reason you think this? I know that he's talked about the cut being tough, but so do about half of the guys in the sport. I know he's focused on trying to get a 2nd belt right now and wants to fight on the MSG card, but whether that happens or not, I see him going where the most lucrative and compelling fights are. Do you think more people would buy Conor - Khabib / Ferguson or Coner - Aldo II / Edgar / Pettis?

 
SacramentoBob said:
Conor has as much chance of fighting at FW again as Carano does at coming back to MMA.
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I'm not sure if Conor has said anything like this (besides wanting to be a multi weight class champ), but this is my theory:

I think he wanted to beat Diaz the first time and then go for the 170 belt (and of course win it).  Then he was going to demand a shot right away for the 155 belt (and of course win it).  This would make him champ in 3 weight classes at one time.  

If that all happened, it's horrible for the people that like to see title fights.  But I really think he wants to control multiple straps at once and take the biggest fights available as champ.  Once he lost to Diaz, he lost a little luster, and didn't prove himself at 170, thus the rematch vs Diaz and now a drop to 155 to go for his 2nd belt.

 
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Bobcat10 said:
I think he wanted to beat Diaz the first time and then go for the 170 belt (and of course win it).
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He was scheduled to fight then 155 champ RDA who pulled out with an injury.  He was already on his way to potentially being a 2 division champ.  I think the 170 talk came about during the lead up to the first Diaz fight since RDA wasn't an option and he assumed he'd beat Diaz at 170.  That probably wasn't in his plans at the time, but he's probably always intended to fight at 145 just long enough to get the belt, then move up to 155/170 permanently.

 
SacramentoBob said:
He was scheduled to fight then 155 champ RDA who pulled out with an injury.  He was already on his way to potentially being a 2 division champ.  I think the 170 talk came about during the lead up to the first Diaz fight since RDA wasn't an option and he assumed he'd beat Diaz at 170.  That probably wasn't in his plans at the time, but he's probably always intended to fight at 145 just long enough to get the belt, then move up to 155/170 permanently.
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I'd guess that 170 was because Diaz took the fight on short notice and couldn't cut to 155 in time. Conor is too small to be consistently effective at 170. No one can give up 25-30 pounds and win against the top guys in the world.

 
NewlyRetired said:
I don't understand the Connor inclusion here.  The guy had 14 fights before he even got to the UFC.  

His first fight in the UFC (15th of his career) he was on an $8k to show, $8k to win bonus.

His second fight in the UFC (16th of his career) he moved up to only $12k to show, $12k to win.

McGreggor's UFC salary continued to climb as the wins piled up until it became clear he was the main draw and was paid accordingly.
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I'm certainly not saying Conner and CM Punk are equal, my point was regarding fight based on resume in a particular division (e.g. Tony Fergusson 8 fight win steak or whatever he is on) vs a guy like Conner who is literally calling his own shots from FW-WW. not saying Conner hasn't earned most of that, but if the original conversation was regarding fighters getting title shots, etc.

for the record, I put CM Punk in the same category I put James Toney (for MMA purposes)

 
modogg said:
for the record, I put CM Punk in the same category I put James Toney (for MMA purposes)
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Well below Toney IMO -- Toney was 100% legit in an actual relevant combat sport. As old as he was when he fought Couture, he still would have quickly KTFO any UFC fighter that tried to stand with him. CM Punk is good at... cutting promos and staged fake fighting.

 
modogg said:
for the record, I put CM Punk in the same category I put James Toney (for MMA purposes)
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He just fought Randy right?  Took a few leg kicks, got easily taken down and gave up his back to get choked out in the first right?  Or did Randy pound him into submission.

 
cockroach said:
He just fought Randy right?  Took a few leg kicks, got easily taken down and gave up his back to get choked out in the first right?  Or did Randy pound him into submission.
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Softened him up a bit then choked him after grabbing a low single immediately. It was really obvious that Toney hadn't bothered to train at all on the ground. It was ridiculous.

 
modogg said:
I'm certainly not saying Conner and CM Punk are equal, my point was regarding fight based on resume in a particular division
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The post I responded to I thought was about money, not about fights in a particular division.  If I misunderstood this sentence below that is my bad.  Here is what I was responding too which I thought you were saying that Connor did not pay his dues to get paid the big money and I did not think that was correct.

" So who has gotten paid good money and not earned it through their fighting expertise or resume, but rather for marketability? Conner and CM Punk definitely, "

 
SacramentoBob said:
He was scheduled to fight then 155 champ RDA who pulled out with an injury.  He was already on his way to potentially being a 2 division champ.  I think the 170 talk came about during the lead up to the first Diaz fight since RDA wasn't an option and he assumed he'd beat Diaz at 170.  That probably wasn't in his plans at the time, but he's probably always intended to fight at 145 just long enough to get the belt, then move up to 155/170 permanently.
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Good call.  

 
NewlyRetired said:
The post I responded to I thought was about money, not about fights in a particular division.  If I misunderstood this sentence below that is my bad.  Here is what I was responding too which I thought you were saying that Connor did not pay his dues to get paid the big money and I did not think that was correct.

" So who has gotten paid good money and not earned it through their fighting expertise or resume, but rather for marketability? Conner and CM Punk definitely, "
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I would say it applies to Conner, but certainly to a much lesser degree then Punk. I think when you look at Conner's first couple of fights in the UFC he certainly was able to avoid fighters with a strong grappling/wrestling base.

i would also say that this is the same for probably 15-20% of fighters. some are obvious like the Northcutt's and PVZ, but I am sure there are other examples. could also be all on the fighters as well to pick and choose which fights they want and refuse to sign off on others. Not really a big deal and Conner has certainly earned this right with how much he has brought into the company (i.e. if Conner faced 1-2 wrestlers before he fought Aldo when he was still developing I don't know if the McGreggor effect would have ever gotten to where it is now and the UFC would cost itself millions of dollars)

 
Cliff Clavin said:
Joanna Jedrzejczyk vs. Karolina Kowalkiewicz title fight set for UFC 205

Yes, I copied and pasted that. 
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lol. So I guess this means Eddie nor Conner will be at that event? strange with the UFC doing that but maybe Dana and company have realized they need to draw a line in the sand somewhere, even if it means losing money and fans being disappointed.  Good fight though and I hope to see Karolina around more if JJ beats her.

 
modogg said:
lol. So I guess this means Eddie nor Conner will be at that event? strange with the UFC doing that but maybe Dana and company have realized they need to draw a line in the sand somewhere, even if it means losing money and fans being disappointed.  Good fight though and I hope to see Karolina around more if JJ beats her.
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:shrug:

Supposedly Khahib has signed two contracts to fight Alvares; one for 205 and one for 206. Alvares won't sign though because naturally, he wants the money McGregor brings and it is likely an easier fight. 

McGregor must drive White freaking insane. He's his biggest cash cow at the moment but also his biggest pain in the ###.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
:shrug:

Supposedly Khahib has signed two contracts to fight Alvares; one for 205 and one for 206. Alvares won't sign though because naturally, he wants the money McGregor brings and it is likely an easier fight. 

McGregor must drive White freaking insane. He's his biggest cash cow at the moment but also his biggest pain in the ###.
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Good for him and other fighters if they can start increasing their bargaining power.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
:shrug:

Supposedly Khahib has signed two contracts to fight Alvares; one for 205 and one for 206. Alvares won't sign though because naturally, he wants the money McGregor brings and it is likely an easier fight. 

McGregor must drive White freaking insane. He's his biggest cash cow at the moment but also his biggest pain in the ###.
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I also heard that the UFC was willing to book Conor-Alvarez if Conor vacated the FW belt and Conor wasn't having that either.

 
100% agree he should ditch the title if his next fight isn't defending it. 

Not sure why he cares so much. He could talk so much #### towards Aldo (the likely FW champ) about it not being a real belt. 

 
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