Ukraine (1 Viewer)

[ren hoek]

With this being in the news of late and a forthcoming s-show between Trump & Congress, we're probably going to be hearing a lot about Ukraine.  I wish I was more knowledgeable about this subject. 

There were some topics that raise Ukraine situationally, but none about the country itself.

 

[The General]

The Ukraine is weak. Just getting that out of the way.

 

[McJose]

50,000 people used to live here, now its a ghost town.  Our so call leaders prostituted us to the west, destroyed our culture, our economies, our honour, just as they lay waste to our country we shall lay waste to theirs.

 

[timschochet]

I wrote this in the other thread: without exception, no country has suffered a worse last 100 years than Ukraine. 

Some highlights:

1919-1920 the worst battles in the Russian Civil War took place in Ukraine. Russian White armies in support of returning the Tsar’s family to power stormed through villages, raping women, killing Jews and anyone suspected of being a Soviet. Then the Red Army would storm through the same villages, murdering anyone accused of supporting the Whites and sending thousands to re-education camps. 

1922-1923 Poland invades Russia through Ukraine, murdering thousands. Russia invades Poland through Ukraine, murdering thousands. 

1926-1933 Josef Stalin conducts his collectivization of Ukraine. An estimated 20-30 million people are put to death. 

1936-1939. Ukraine is a key part of Josef Stalin’s Red Terror. Hundreds of  Thousands are arrested and sent to gulags. Children are urged at school to inform on their parents. 

1941-1944 Nazi Germany invades. Russia’s army fights a “scorched earth policy around Kiev, destroying all foodstuffs and agricultural reserves. Millions of Ukrainians starve to death. The Nazis murder all Jews (33,000 in one day at Babi Yar outside of Kiev, 2 million Jews in Ukraine during the entire 3 years). Non Jewish Ukrainians are consigned to slave labor. 

1944 The Soviet Union “liberates” Ukraine- Stalin publicly labels the Ukrainians as “collaborationists” and begins a policy of “re-eduction”- thousands more are murdered or sent to gulags. 

1946-1990- Ukraine is made a “separate country”, mainly as a scheme to give the USSR an additional vote in the United Nation. All high government offices are either Russian or pawns of the Soviet Union. The country survives as a slave state. Periodically when Moscow doesn’t have enough food, Ukraine is starved in order to feed the Russians. Families are forcibly drafted into the Russian Army. Anyone who questions the Soviets is sent to a gulag. Anyone who attempts to flee is shot. 

1990-2019. Ukraine is liberated. It’s government is immediately dominated by corrupt autocrats who control all industry. Politicians running for office manage to blame the Jews for Ukraine’s problems (even though there haven’t been any left since 1944.) 

so that’s just a brief description. Happy times! 

 

[ren hoek]

Who Will Confront Kiev's Spiraling anti-Semitism Problem?

When the same vicious anti-Semitism is voiced by a far right militia leader and a Ukrainian diplomat, it's a sign how deeply Jew-hatred, and hyper-nationalist Holocaust revisionism are contaminating Ukrainian society and politics

"Ukraine will belong to Ukrainians, instead of #####!"

"Clear the ##### from Odessa and Ukraine!"

The first of these remarks was made by a leader of a Ukrainian far-right paramilitary organization. The other - by Ukraine's diplomatic consul based in Hamburg, Germany. That they are indistinguishable is a loud warning signal for how far anti-Semitism has penetrated politics in Ukraine. //

The head of the ultranationalist National Order, Andriy Biletsky, declared several years ago that Ukraine's national mission was to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade...against Semite-led Untermenschen [subhumans]." //

From laundering nationalist heroes’ pro-Nazi past, it isn’t far to go before you arrive at Hitler worship itself. In September 2018, the then chairman of Ukrainian parliament, Andrey Parubiy stated, admitingly, on national TV that Adolf Hitler had been a real fan of direct democracy and "actively carried it out."

But such persistent anti-Semite rhetoric doesn’t remain just words – it leads to officially-sanctioned repressive actions against Jews in Ukraine. 

For instance, Moshe Reuven Asman, rabbi of Kiev’s Central Synagogue of Kiev, lodged an official complaint that the synagogue had been tapped with surveillance devices by Ukraine’s national anti-corruption department - an illegal, discriminatory act. He wrote, "I consider these illegal actions to be flagrant violation of constitutional, religious rights of believers, and create the foundation for speculations and provocations against Jewish people." //

 

[timschochet]

With regard to anti-Semitism, it doesn’t help that the “George Washington” of Ukraine, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, is best known in history for being the biggest murderer of the Jews in history outside of Adolf Hitler. There are statues of him everywhere in Kiev. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohdan_Khmelnytsky

 

[Captain Cranks]

Why do people say "The Ukraine"?

 

[McJose]

Why do people say "The Ukraine"?

In the old USSR days that’s what the Russians called it.  When they became independent the “The” was dropped.

Saying “The Ukraine” now is considered somewhat of an insult as it devalues their sovereignty.

 

[McJose]

I am not too sure that is the origin and I have seen other explanations but don't have time to look it up at the moment. It was however referred to that way in US public schools for several decades.

In any event, it is considered offensive to someone from that country and would be similar to saying "The Canada" or "The Mexico"  

Beats me. I just went to a State university.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

In the old USSR days that’s what the Russians called it.  When they became independent the “The” was dropped.

Saying “The Ukraine” now is considered somewhat of an insult as it devalues their sovereignty.

It always was. "Ukraine" basically means 'territory', so when the Russians use it that way their basically calling it their backyard, like 'the [our] territory'.

 

[moleculo]

I am not too sure that is the origin and I have seen other explanations but don't have time to look it up at the moment. It was however referred to that way in US public schools for several decades.

In any event, it is considered offensive to someone from that country and would be similar to saying "The Canada" or "The Mexico"  

Whatabout The United States of America or The Ohio State University?

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Shakhtar Donetsk or Dynamo Kyiv will win the Ukrainian Premier League this season. I can say this without even looking at the table because one of these two clubs has won the league every year for the past 15 seasons, in most cases with the other finishing second.  Both clubs have their roots  in the former Soviet football leagues.

Shakhter used to be based in Donetsk, as the club name suggests, and played its games at Donbass arena.   The Russians bombed Donbass in 2014. Shakhtar moved to Lviv for a season or two, and is playing its home games at Metalist Stadium in Kharkiv this year.

For me, the most famous Shakhtar player in history is probably Darijo Srna, a Croatian.  The Brazilian Luiz Adriano is the club's all time leading  goal scorer with 128.

Dynamo Kiev's most famous player is Andry Shevchenko, who is now the coach  of the Ukraine national team.  He's also dabbled in politics a bit recently.  Dynamo  Kiev is  perhaps best known for the infamous "death match," a game played against a German club during the Nazi occupation.  Most of the story is now considered myth and propaganda.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_Match

 

[CletiusMaximus]

When I lived in Holland I had a friend named Roman who was from Slovakia (at the time, Czechoslovakia) and was  student at the university in Bratislava.  The other Slovaks we hung out  with all referred to Roman as Ukrainian, because he came from the Eastern part of Slovakia and he was an ethnic Ukrainian.  The girls referred to him using the affectionate name, "Romanko," which I adopted.  Among the many things I learned from Romanko and my other Slovak friends is that borders don't really mean much in that part of the world.  Romanko was Ukrainian to them, not Slovak, even though he was born in Czechoslovakia and served his mandatory military service in the Czech army.  They all loathed being associated with the Czechs and wanted nothing to do with anything Czech.

 

[timschochet]

David Bronstein was, during the 1950s,  the best chess player in the world, with winning records against all of the top players, including 2 World Champions. But because he was Ukrainian and Jewish, he was never allowed to compete for the World Championship- he was instructed by the Soviet State to lose two Candidate matches. 

I met him as a very old man (he came to Long Beach in the early 90s for an exhibition). He wasn’t bitter; he was charming and affable.  

 

[timschochet]

Also- when Russia invaded Crimea a few years back I had a Russian tenant at the time, a loan guy in his 30s. Smoked all day long, hanging outside of his unit. I asked him about the invasion and he got really pissed off. He said there was no Ukraine; it was a fake country. It was part of Russia. Then he said Ukrainians were savages, completely uncivilized. It was pretty scary. Not sure how many Russians feel this way. 

 

[shadrap]

looks like this is getting serious.  Just wondering what the USA will do?  Does this affect us?  what do we do besides the usual sanctions if they do invade?  WW I was started over an Austrian prince & his wife getting killed in Serbia.  20 million killed after that little debacle.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-russia-ukraine-invasion-2022-biden-putin

 

[Navin Johnson]

looks like this is getting serious.  Just wondering what the USA will do?  Does this affect us?  what do we do besides the usual sanctions if they do invade?  WW I was started over an Austrian prince & his wife getting killed in Serbia.  20 million killed after that little debacle.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-russia-ukraine-invasion-2022-biden-putin

Dan Carlin has a nice podcast series about WWI.  The scramble to see which treaties would be honored was something I had never learned about in school and I thought it was pretty interesting.