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UNC Football and bball LOL (2 Viewers)

so clearly a delay tactic. They're going all in for the 15-16 season since the much needed influx of 2016 talent doesn't seem to be happening. Roy has like 21 scholarship offers out to the senior class and you could argue they aren't the favorite for ANY of them,

 
TLEF316 said:
so clearly a delay tactic. They're going all in for the 15-16 season since the much needed influx of 2016 talent doesn't seem to be happening. Roy has like 21 scholarship offers out to the senior class and you could argue they aren't the favorite for ANY of them,
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So the odds seem pretty good that if they won the championship, he would immediately retire. Yes?

I happen to believe their team is overrated and not worthy of their ranking, so I doubt they will win it. What if they don't? Will Roy retire anyway?

 
I'm not sure I understand the delay tactic unless you're pretty sure you're getting a post season ban. If so, then delay away and hope for the 15/16 team, although I agree with JWB that they're a little overrated.

But the uncertainty of the penalties has not just killed the 16 class, but is hurting the 17 class now as well. If you thought the penalty was just some scholarships, which is reasonable based on the Notice (and I'm not talking about the past, ie. banners coming down. Who cares), then it makes more sense to take the medicine now, lose a couple ships for this year and future years and have some 16 guys (maybe) and 17 guys sign on for the class now that they know the penalty.

Waiting until Jan/Feb for the punishment will really hurt the 17 class, so unless there is a post season ban, I think they're making a mistake.

Of course, as JWB said, maybe this is Roy's last stand and he/the admin think that a title will send him out on top and with his legacy more intact. But hurting the short/medium term future of the program for one man is a pretty bad idea. :coughcoughPaternocoughcough:

And really, how stupid is the men's soccer team for trying to get away with something unrelated right now? Morons.

 
tdoss said:
TLEF316 said:
ConstruxBoy said:
Not sure the threat of sanctions or embarrassment at UNC is really stopping other schools...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/at-auburn-athletics-and-academics-collide-1440635278
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Nor should it, since the men's basketball program is going to avoid any meaningful punishment.
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Maybe not avoid it entirely...apparently some future generation will have to rule on UNC's indiscretions, at the rate it's going.
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In a future world of acceptance and love, I hope.

 
This is delicious. It is no small feat to simultaneously convey both overwhelming bitterness and obnoxious pretentiousness, and the author should be saluted for sharing his gift with us all:

UNC Crushes Duke In Kenan, 66-31We've never done this before but it's the fourth quarter and we're writing this one up, because it's over and it's been over for a long time.And we're not the type of fans who get mad at a team for losing. First of all, those guys are out there trying to do their best. Our ice goes in our cups; their ice goes on their bruises. Even in the dark times we understood that even demoralized Duke teams were still trying.

This is a tough loss. It reminds us in a sense of when Alabama came to Duke a few years ago. Alabama just beat Duke in every way possible.

That loss was instructive though because Duke learned a lot about what it took to become really good. Those players who were hammered ended up in the ACC Championship game and bowl games later.

So we hope that Duke's young players profit from this game, but it'll be later. There's no cause for joy this Saturday. UNC is winning and dominating and did so from the first play of the game.

There was a time when we could swallow our pride and congratulate them, but that's harder to do now.

Every time we compete against UNC, part of us ends up thinking...why? Why do we have to compete against a university which cheated for decades and which has never really even seemed embarrassed?

The actual competition isn't nearly as exciting as it was when we thought were competing against an honorable program, when people still believed in what they called the Carolina Way.

Now we know what was behind that: paper classes, academic fraud and an astonishing exploitation of young men.

Worse still, the university as a whole continues to have a stunning lack of contrition, most recently demonstrated when the university released a lot of documents the media had been requesting...but not before converting them to PDF files.

The university could have paid someone to write a modest script which would have converted them into HTML files, which could have been easily searched. PDF files are vastly more difficult to search. It also takes a lot more effort to make them.

Again, it's a lack of contrition, a desire to obfuscate and to avoid accountability.

As the clock wound down, the UNC mascot sat on the victory bell and rang it. But given what happened in Chapel Hill, it rings hollow. Losing to UNC is never fun, but at least we felt we were losing to a rough equal. Now it's no different than competing against an Auburn, a UNLV or an SMU.

At least to us, this rivalry has lost something important. It may be a long time before we see the end of Duke-UNC in anything and just simply feel good or feel depressed.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2015/11/7/9688652/unc-crushes-duke-in-kenan-66-31
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That's pretty funny. Wasn't there a bet about the demise of UNC football? That might have been in the ACC football thread that died it's just death :oldunsure:

 
The Commish said:
That's pretty funny. Wasn't there a bet about the demise of UNC football? That might have been in the ACC football thread that died it's just death :oldunsure:
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One of the many things I enjoyed about the post is that his outrage was apparently renewed because UNC had the unmitigated gall to send out recent documents in pdf form, thus making it hard to search the contents and forcing people to (gasp!) read them in full if they want to glean something from them. Of course documents whose contents need to be protected from post-publication editing are ALWAYS sent out as pdfs. That made for a nice laugh break as I drank in his delicious tears.

 
The Commish said:
That's pretty funny. Wasn't there a bet about the demise of UNC football? That might have been in the ACC football thread that died it's just death :oldunsure:
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One of the State fans talk about how UNC would be under .500 for the next decade. I offered a bet but he declined saying it would be 2-3 years before UNC hit the bottom and he didn't want a long term bet. He also said UNC would feast on a crappy OOC schedule which articially inflate the record.

Seems like he was describing NC State and not UNC.

Doesn't mean as much to me as I'm going to have to be switching alliances to the Pack in the near future.

 
BassNBrew said:
The Commish said:
That's pretty funny. Wasn't there a bet about the demise of UNC football? That might have been in the ACC football thread that died it's just death :oldunsure:
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One of the State fans talk about how UNC would be under .500 for the next decade. I offered a bet but he declined saying it would be 2-3 years before UNC hit the bottom and he didn't want a long term bet. He also said UNC would feast on a crappy OOC schedule which articially inflate the record.

Seems like he was describing NC State and not UNC.

Doesn't mean as much to me as I'm going to have to be switching alliances to the Pack in the near future.
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That explains your anger in the Panthers thread ;) I'm not sure what happened in that fan base or when it happened, but somehow they have managed to get me to pull for Duke and/or UNC on occasion. :D

 
Just Win Baby said:
'TobiasFunke said:
'Just Win Baby said:
'Grady Wilson said:
'pantherclub said:
It would be my luck that the Heels went after Leach.

Tobias any word on who takes over or who they go after?
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No big name coach will go to Chapel Hill for a long time. Too much of a mess there. I think it will be some QB coach, DL coach, someone like that from another team that will take the reigns. Regardless of who comes in, thanks to this cluster**** that has taken place by the entire administration it has set the football program back a good 5 or 6 years.
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Longer than 5 or 6 years IMO. This will be a lost season with an interim coach, and the NCAA penalties won't come out until after this season. They will hire a lame duck coach after this season, and the combination of that coach and the recruiting impact of the penalties will probably put UNC in the ACC cellar for 5+ years. Then they will end up replacing the lame duck coach and will try to begin the long, tough climb out of the cellar. How long that takes will depend on how good the replacement coach is. I suspect they will be set back more like 10 years, as I said earlier in the thread.
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Signing day update?
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If you want to re-engage on this tangent of the thread, at least start with my most recent post in the tangent:
'Just Win Baby said:
'BassNBrew said:
'Just Win Baby said:
'BassNBrew said:
'Just Win Baby said:
I also have stated that I think UNC's program will have an overall losing record over the next several seasons. I still expect that.
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Care to wager?
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We already covered this earlier in the thread. I'm not interested in a wager that will take several years to resolve.
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2011 - 7-62012 - Guaranteed no worse than 6-6.
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I admit, they are doing better at this point than I expected. I also expected their penalties to be harsher, as I have posted previously.That said, let's let the several years play out before evaluating. It's early yet. It wouldn't surprise me if there are more penalties to come, and some of those wins might ultimately be vacated. More importantly, we have yet to see if and how their recruiting will be affected by past and potential future penalties.
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I'm pretty sure I never posted any predictions about how ESPN would rank UNC's recruiting classes going forward. Otherwise, my latest view is quoted here.That said, Rivals has UNC's class ranked #41 and State's #46 as of right now. Pretty impressive class for State, considering it's a brand new coaching staff. I believe this ranking would be higher than all of O'Brien's recruiting classes except one.
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Bumpidy

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Good lord that article is pathetic.

Oh and UNC's offense is scary good. Two good QB, four deep at RB and six deep at WR.
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One awful late August goal-line interception away from being in the thick of the playoff picture. Incredible turnaround. I don't follow the team that closely these days but Fedora clearly knows what he's doing.

 
It is pretty impressive where the UNC football program stands right now. Fedora has done a nice job, and Chizik was a great addition. However, it remains to be seen how they will fare after the sanctions they are likely to receive prior to the 2016 season.

At this point, I predict the following sanctions for football:

1. Plenty of vacated wins from 2002-2011, the period of the NOA. UNC won 54 games during that period. NCAA bylaws are very clear on this matter. Once a player is deemed (retroactively) ineligible then any game in which he/she participated is retroactively forfeited by the school. Not sure if anyone really cares about this.

2. Scholarship reductions. Not sure this will really make much of an impact in football. UNC isn't a football factory, so I don't know that losing their last several scholarships will matter much, i.e., how much better are those players than UNC walk-ons? Or does it hurt non-football factory teams worse? Not sure.

3. At least 2 years of recruiting restrictions. This could actually hurt the football program quite a bit. I'm not sure UNC football has built up enough goodwill/reputation to recruit successfully with restricted visits, etc., especially in the negative aftermath of the sanctions.

4. Fedora suspended for several games. In the big picture, this probably doesn't matter much, as it will only affect one season.

5. One year postseason ban. This could hurt in the wake of this season, since if UNC were able to maintain this season's performance, they would be in line to compete for a significant bowl berth.

6. 5 years probation. Typically, I would think this doesn't matter much, but UNC has had so many issues over the past 5 years that they might actually be more likely than most universities to violate probation and suffer more penalties.

7. No restrictions on player transfers without sitting out a season. This one will hurt. Combining it with everything else, this likely means there will be a talent drain once sanctions are announced, and the scholarship reductions and recruiting restrictions will make it harder to replenish that talent.

8. Significant fines. I assume this won't really matter much. UNC has already spent millions on this debacle, so how much more could this really hurt?

I think it will be similar for men's basketball:

1. Plenty of vacated wins, with the possibility of the 2005 and 2009 championships being vacated. During the NOA period, UNC won 276 games. 257 of those wins were under Roy Williams, so his career record is likely to get hammered. The key question here is how many MBB players will be retroactively determined to have been ineligible. I don't care much about this, but I know there are those who would see vacated championships as a big deal.

2. Scholarship reductions. UNC's infractions are worse than those of Syracuse (lost 12 scholarships over 4 years) and SMU (lost 9 scholarships over 3 years). I expect no less than 12/4. That is going to hurt and have a noticeable impact on their talent.

3. At least 2 years of recruiting restrictions. Both Syracuse and SMU received this penalty. This probably won't hurt MBB as much as football, given UNC's much stronger history and reputation in basketball. At least it might not hurt if Roy sticks around. If they have a new coach, it might hurt a bit more.

4. Roy suspended for several games. It will be interesting to see if he stays long enough to serve the suspension. He will be 66 years old before the 2016-17 season, and facing all of these ramifications. It would be easier for him to just fall on his sword and retire.

5. One year NCAA tournament ban. I would expect no ACC tournament either, if Swofford were not the ACC commissioner. The NCAA tournament ban will hurt with recruiting, especially one and done players. Although UNC's recruiting hasn't seemed as strong recently as it had been historically, so not sure how many one and done players would be seriously considering UNC anyway.

6. 5 years probation. See above.

7. No restrictions on player transfers without sitting out a season. See above.

8. Significant fines. See above.

WBB and maybe other sports will be similarly affected. It is good for UNC fans that their MBB and football teams are as good as they are this season, since there may be a down period coming.

 
Long-ago UNC report contradicts university’s latest stance on independent studies

The NCAA’s notice of allegations, issued last May, appears to accept UNC’s contention that the limit started in the fall of 2006. The notice said from the fall of 2006 to the end of the 2010-11 academic year, 10 athletes exceeded the limit, which was an impermissible academic benefit under NCAA rules.

But if the limit has been in existence much longer, it could capture 140 more athletes who had exceeded it, according to a spreadsheet in the NCAA’s exhibits. The spreadsheet identifies students who had enrolled in more than 12 hours of independent study and “anomalous courses” from mid-2000 to mid-2011.
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"That presumably would include Rashad McCants, whose transcript shows he took nothing but fake classes in the semester during the championship run. He had taken seven others prior to that semester, making a total of 11, or 33 hours.

During the 2004-05 national title season, records show the team accounted for 35 enrollments in fake classes."

 
tdoss said:
"That presumably would include Rashad McCants, whose transcript shows he took nothing but fake classes in the semester during the championship run. He had taken seven others prior to that semester, making a total of 11, or 33 hours.

During the 2004-05 national title season, records show the team accounted for 35 enrollments in fake classes."
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The sideline reporter should ask him about this at halftime. Then ban him from returning in the second half. 

 
Are there any violations related to current players? Is there a possibility the Cheats could cut down the nets on Monday and then have the NCAA come cut down the 2016 Championship Banner from the Dean Dome in 6 months?

 
chauncey said:
Are there any violations related to current players? Is there a possibility the Cheats could cut down the nets on Monday and then have the NCAA come cut down the 2016 Championship Banner from the Dean Dome in 6 months?
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I doubt it.

They threw a couple other sports to the wolves in order to buy them time for this championship.

Past championships could be in jeopardy though...but I doubt it...even as egregious as their offenses are... 

 
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Uruk-Hai said:
Aaaand there ya have it. All dots connected now.
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Sarcasm. A tip of the hat to Archer if you will. I wish he was still around for this tournament so I could risk a banning talking #### to him. 

 I'm a UNC grad and fan. I'll be the drunk guy in the Carolina Blue shirt in Sec 103 Row 21. 

Tobias, if you are in Houston today beers on me before tip off at the tail gate party outside NRG.

 
From NCAA considers new rules regarding academic misconduct:

Last month, a Showtime 60 Minutes Sports report featured former U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan’s criticism of UNC and its basketball program. Duncan recently joined the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics as a vice-chairman.

“I just think about those young men who the vast majority are probably first generation in their family having the chance to go to college, and the chance not to just play basketball in North Carolina but the chance to get a degree from the University of North Carolina,” Duncan said. “That’s a life-transforming opportunity. And the fact they were denied that chance is mindboggling. It’s mindboggling. And they were denied it systemically, systematically. This was part of the University of North Carolina basketball system.”
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Rumor has it that UNC received an amended NOA this week, and it now has 6 Level 1 violations and 1 Level 2 violation. Furthermore, the language in some of the previous violations has been expanded and toughened. Supposedly, the amended NOA says that UNC used ineligible athletes in multiple sports from 1989 to 2011.

 
Just Win Baby said:
Rumor has it that UNC received an amended NOA this week, and it now has 6 Level 1 violations and 1 Level 2 violation. Furthermore, the language in some of the previous violations has been expanded and toughened. Supposedly, the amended NOA says that UNC used ineligible athletes in multiple sports from 1989 to 2011.
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Funny rumor

 
The Commish said:
Haven't been in here in a while.  How's your bet going with the demise of UNC football?  You had a bet with someone, no?  Maybe it was TF?
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I think that was actually Bass. I'm not here much anymore. At least on the FFA. Just saw the NOA today and had to respond. And to be clear, laughing at the PackPriders desperate to get back at UNC for the David Thompson/Jimmy V penalties. Not laughing at the academic fraud. Embarrassing.

 
Weird how "some sketchy stuff was happening at the school and I suspect that the men's basketball program was more involved than the evidence indicates but I can't actually point to a specific NCAA rule they broke" might turn out to be insufficient for major sanctions. If only someone had been saying that all along.

 
Just Win Baby said:
At UNC-CH, a campus without honor
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You can't hold the university responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole university system? And if the whole university system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, JWB - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society?

Well, you can do whatever you want to UNC, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!

 
TobiasFunke said:
You can't hold the university responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole university system? And if the whole university system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, JWB - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society?

Well, you can do whatever you want to UNC, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!
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So a guy with multiple degrees from NC State is upset - and was pretty much given a blank slate by the N&O to share his unedited thoughts. ... Those are two things I would not have expected based on the last several years.

Also his line that he "finds his personal honor and resources contributions comprised by the actions of the Chapel Hill campus" needs some examples. If a professor in the UNC system could  demonstrate that events on another campus had an impact on his resources, that needs to be more widely discussed.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
Finally made my way over to IC after the amended notice of allegations and learned of this amazing catfishing effort. Expertly done, and the beautiful part is that unlike most catfishing every single victim deserved it.

Catfishing the Banner Chasers

The whole twitter feed is a delight, really.  Go back to around April 24 and read up.
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Yeah, saw that posted on another board I'm on. Awesome. Dan Kane and the N&O can eat it, lol.

 
July of 2010 is when we first started discussing this and its still unresolved and appears to be the same for the foreseeable future.  Unreal.

 
Maybe there will never again be a time when UNC athletics is not under investigation for violations. This seems to be the new normal for them.

 
Apparently the NCAA is just going to slow roll this thing in perpetuity.

Just keep tacking on a little at a time until everyone forgets or something.

 
tdoss said:
Apparently the NCAA is just going to slow roll this thing in perpetuity.

Just keep tacking on a little at a time until everyone forgets or something.
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Some ten year old kid out there will end up on probation when he's at Carolina in 2025 for stuff Roy Williams and butch Davis did.  

 
Yeah, the 2nd NOA seemed to indicate that UNC had stalled/argued/lawyered their way out of any significant punishment (actual sanctions or vacated wins on Football or Men's basketball, which is really all that matters anyway). They should have just thanked their lucky stars, paid their attorneys and taken their meaningless slap on the wrist.

Instead, it looks like they tried to push the whole "you shouldn't have the right to punish us for ANY of this" point of view, which seems to have pissed the NCAA off something fierce.

Of course, this new NOA just tacks on another 150 days to the timeline (at the minimal) so it won't affect basketball season.

 
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TLEF316 said:
Yeah, the 2nd NOA seemed to indicate that UNC had stalled/argued/lawyered their way out of any significant punishment (actual sanctions or vacated wins on Football or Men's basketball, which is really all that matters anyway). They should have just thanked their lucky stars, paid their attorneys and taken their meaningless slap on the wrist.

Instead, it looks like they tried to push the whole "you shouldn't have the right to punish us for ANY of this" point of view, which seems to have pissed the NCAA off something fierce.

Of course, this new NOA just tacks on another 150 days to the timeline (at the minimal) so it won't affect basketball season.
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I just read UNC's and Cunninghams response and for the life of me I am not getting their defense of this.  In a nutshell its basically yeah we had fake classes to keep people eligible but its academic and none of your business.  I cannot imagine that is going to be a good defense for them.  They have basically created a vacuum where everyone is now howling at UNC to get hammered. 

Should have taken the fine, probation, loss of wins or whatever and moved down the road, now its another year of bad press.

 
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