Vaccine Mandate For Companies - How Will It Work? (1 Viewer)

[Max Power]

May need a lawyer to answer this but how would a refugee go about suing these drugmakers?  Do they sue in the country where they come from, where they received the vaccine or where the corporation is based?

I skimmed the article as best as I could but didn't see anything address it.  Maybe I overlooked it.

I'm not sure, but reading this again now that I'm more awake.  Congrats to J&J and Sinovac for waiving their indemnity. 

 

[Max Power]

So, to be clear, I put anti-vax arguments in quotes for a reason and that reason is because when making the comments I'm including all the macro level fear mongering kinds of posts.  I'll start with one near and dear to your heart and it's this notion that there is some meaningful difference between labeling vaccines that are identical in chemical make up.  Not sure if anyone else on this board took up your request to call Pfizer.  I did and they laughed at the question.  So, things like that are included in my labeling.  I also include a lot of the debunked "alternative" remedies in that labeling as well as blatantly incorrect uses of information sources as gospel (see VAERS).  While several of these aren't anything to do with the vaccines specifically, they throw out erroneous "concerns" to muddy the waters and undermine what we've accomplished with these vaccines. 

I'll also throw out this myocarditis issue.  People are saying, "wait, this vaccine can give kids myocarditis", which is true.  It's also true that kids are 6 times more likely to get myocarditis from covid itself than from the vaccine.  It's also true that a majority of cases caught from the virus are going to be significantly more severe than what the vaccines will cause.  All these kinds of things that come from that group and others like them and I see them reported here all the time and rarely ever with the appropriate context.   

I don't believe you did. No customer service person is going to laugh at you for asking a reasonable question. ANYONE here can call and confirm that Comirnaty is not currently available in the US. This exact legal argument has come up in court and the judge ruled that the claim two legally distinct products can be used interchangeably because they have the same formula was "Not a compelling argument" due to the different regulations and production requirements associated with each product. With there being no way to confirm vials were produced in accordance with the FDA approval, they can not retroactively apply that standard to already distributed products.  This was in a DoD suit. 

The compensation piece also currently falls under the CICP and not the NVIC due to the current administration of the vaccines under the EUA. Once fully authorized and put on the scheduled table of vaccinations, it falls under NVIC. As of right now there hasn't been any documented payouts under the CICP for covid-19 related vaccine injuries.

VAERS is very real.  How you want to interpret the data is up to the user, but those are datapoints and not anti-vax information. 

It's also true that kids are 6 times more likely to get myocarditis from covid itself than from the vaccine. 

I'm going to need a source for this.   This might just be outdated information, but there have been several studies recently that claim otherwise. 

It's also true that a majority of cases caught from the virus are going to be significantly more severe than what the vaccines will cause.

Probably true, but I'd love to see the study you're using for this claim. Since we really don't have the details and they are still seeing people who are vaccinated and catch covid can also have covid complications down the road. 

If we're even entertaining an arguement about which is worse, the virus or cure, it tells you all you need to know. 

That said, anyone in a risk group absolutely should get vaccinated.  I don't agree with blanket vaccinations. 

 

[RCon]

ANYONE here can call and confirm that Comirnaty is not currently available in the US.

I hear radio commercials every day telling me to schedule my Comirnaty shot right away.

 

[RCon]

If we're even entertaining an arguement about which is worse, the virus or cure, it tells you all you need to know. 

I agree with this statement, but in the same way I would agree with the statements "That we're even entertaining people who believe the 2020 POTUS election tells you all you need to know" or "That we're even entertaining people who believe the moon landing was fake tells you all you need to know".

 

[Max Power]

I hear radio commercials every day telling me to schedule my Comirnaty shot right away.

I'm sure you do. I just explained the difference.  If you don't care, you don't care.  But it's really a bait and switch.  They are the same thing until you get to the legal aspect, at which point they are not. I know it doesn't mean anything to 99% of the people, but DoD regulation is to use Fully FDA licensed product for the mandate.  Comirnaty is, Pfizer BioNtech is not. 

 

[The Commish]

I don't believe you did. No customer service person is going to laugh at you for asking a reasonable question.

You can believe whatever you want.  I have no reason to lie to you.  They are the same thing.   

VAERS is very real.

This is true

How you want to interpret the data is up to the user,

This is not

but those are datapoints and not anti-vax information. 

They aren't any sort of vax information at all really.  They are merely claims until they are each researched.

If we're even entertaining an arguement about which is worse, the virus or cure, it tells you all you need to know. 

I wish this were true, but many still remain skeptical  

The rest, I have no idea how you come into these conversations so emphatically without knowing the studies and their results.  They've been done to death in these threads.  Clearly you didn't read them before.  I encourage you to take a look.  You can start at Yale.

 

[Max Power]

You can believe whatever you want.  I have no reason to lie to you.  They are the same thing.   

This is true

This is not

They aren't any sort of vax information at all really.  They are merely claims until they are each researched.

I wish this were true, but many still remain skeptical  

The rest, I have no idea how you come into these conversations so emphatically without knowing the studies and their results.  They've been done to death in these threads.  Clearly you didn't read them before.  I encourage you to take a look.  You can start at Yale.

Ahh, the ole say it's been covered to avoid answering.  Thanks. 

 

[The Commish]

They are the same thing until you get to the legal aspect, at which point they are not.

And GTFO with this bull####.  This is EXACTLY what I told you in the other thread was the reason for the difference when you were claiming there was some other nefarious reason and that they weren't the same vaccine.  There are two programs in the exact same group (HRSA) that are funded the exact same way but have to be separate for the different stages of approval.  

You pissed and moaned about this for pages in that thread saying that was "just my guess" or some #### like that....GTFO with this crap 

 

[The Commish]

Ahh, the ole say it's been covered to avoid answering.  Thanks. 

well, no, but given these last few posts, I'm not surprised you tried this old and tired talking point too.  It's been answered a ton of times and not only by me.  

 

[Max Power]

And GTFO with this bull####.  This is EXACTLY what I told you in the other thread was the reason for the difference when you were claiming there was some other nefarious reason and that they weren't the same vaccine.  There are two programs in the exact same group (HRSA) that are funded the exact same way but have to be separate for the different stages of approval.  

You pissed and moaned about this for pages in that thread saying that was "just my guess" or some #### like that....GTFO with this crap 

Settle down, you're not making sense any more.

 

[the rover]

I hear radio commercials every day telling me to schedule my Comirnaty shot right away.

yeah this argument is pure nonsense.  it's literally nothing but a branding issue

 

[Max Power]

yeah this argument is pure nonsense.  it's literally nothing but a branding issue

So everything rolling off the assembly line today is fully FDA approved and wont be put in a vial that says for EUA?

 

[The Commish]

Settle down, you're not making sense any more.

Sound familiar???

These are the legal distinctions necessary to differentiate between the vaccine's approval for those 16+ and EAU use for 12-15 years old.  Once approval is given for 12-15 this verbiage will go away.  Once it's EAU is approved for 5-11 it will be added back.  Once 5-11 is approved, it will go away etc etc. 

 

[Max Power]

Sound familiar???

Yes, and those distinctions are still in place.  Pfizer BioNtech vaccine is not an FDA approved vaccine.

 

[AAABatteries]

Hey Max, remember when you claimed that you didn't want to come across as "vaccine hesitant" (or whatever you want to put inside those quotes) - you aren't doing a great job of it right now.

 

[-fish-]

Yes, and those distinctions are still in place.  Pfizer BioNtech vaccine is not an FDA approved vaccine.

your repetition of your misunderstanding doesn't help your cause.

they are the same vaccine.  the FDA does not allow using a brand name until there is FDA approval.   When administered to an adult, the vaccine is referred to by its brand name.   when administered to someone under 18 for whom there is an EUA, the vaccine is referred to by the company name and vaccine designation.

they are the same thing.

Imagine going to a party and putting on a nametag that says, "Hi, my name is Max."    Then you remove that nametag and put one on that says, "Hi, my name is Steve."  That does not make you a different person.

 

[Max Power]

Hey Max, remember when you claimed that you didn't want to come across as "vaccine hesitant" (or whatever you want to put inside those quotes) - you aren't doing a great job of it right now.

It was claimed I was giddy about breakthroughs.  I'm not.  The breakthroughs are just proof that a lot of these policies were short sighted and don't support the mandates.  In this thread I've told people to go get vaccinated. 

I'm a covid survivor and I wish the government would recognize natural immunity. I'm hesitant to take a vaccine that that comes with unknown risk and unknown benefits. 

The government could go a long way getting past this if it just recognized natural immunity.  Instead it draws a line not based in science and continues the divide. 

 

[RCon]

It was claimed I was giddy about breakthroughs.

I claimed your posts came across that way.  There's a subtle difference.

The breakthroughs are just proof that a lot of these policies were short sighted and don't support the mandates.

This isn't accurate.  That breakthrough cases occur does not make mandates bad policy.

I'm hesitant to take a vaccine that that comes with unknown risk and unknown benefits.

When you write it like this, you make it sound like you believe we know nothing about the risks and benefits.  That's absolutely not true.  We know that the risks are infinitesimal.  We know that the benefits are significant, even for those who have previously had COVID.

 

[Max Power]

your repetition of your misunderstanding doesn't help your cause.

they are the same vaccine.  the FDA does not allow using a brand name until there is FDA approval.   When administered to an adult, the vaccine is referred to by its brand name.   when administered to someone under 18 for whom there is an EUA, the vaccine is referred to by the company name and vaccine designation.

they are the same thing.

Imagine going to a party and putting on a nametag that says, "Hi, my name is Max."    Then you remove that nametag and put one on that says, "Hi, my name is Steve."  That does not make you a different person.

It's not legally Comirnaty if it comes out of a vial label Pfizer BioNtech EUA.  At that point you are still taking an EUA drug.  This is in the FDA factsheet.  

 

[Max Power]

I claimed your posts came across that way.  There's a subtle difference.

This isn't accurate.  That breakthrough cases occur does not make mandates bad policy.

When you write it like this, you make it sound like you believe we know nothing about the risks and benefits.  That's absolutely not true.  We know that the risks are infinitesimal.  We know that the benefits are significant, even for those who have previously had COVID.

I wasn't going to call you out, but we don't know all the risks. There are still studies being done today for age groups, boosters, long term effects.  Studies Pfizer won't show the data for btw...  

What is the death rate for previously infected that survived covid?  It's super low.  Breakthrough deaths are higher.  So what is the benefit to me getting vaccinated right now?  I don't get as sick?  Pass...

Breakthrough infections are already occuring in many places with mandates. Schools and sports are being hit hard dispite high vaccination rates.  

The unvaccinated dying is sad, but it's on them at this point.  I'm over throwing a wrench into our society for them. 

 

[RCon]

What is the death rate for previously infected that survived covid?  It's super low.  Breakthrough deaths are higher.

I don't have the data handy, but I suspect this wouldn't be true at all once you control for age.

So what is the benefit to me getting vaccinated right now?

All of the following are benefits.  Less likely to be infected.  Less likely to spread infection to others if you are infected.  Less likely to become seriously ill.  Less likely to die.

 

[-fish-]

It's not legally Comirnaty if it comes out of a vial label Pfizer BioNtech EUA.  At that point you are still taking an EUA drug.  This is in the FDA factsheet.  

the "legal distinction" is a branding issue only.   the vaccine is exactly the same.

you either don't understand this or are being purposely disingenuous.  I believe it is the second, and this falls under needlessly spreading misinformation.   

because people are influenced by misinformation and are refusing the vaccines because if it, we need mandates.  in cases like this, the same people that oppose mandates are the ones that make them necessary.   

 

[Max Power]

I don't have the data handy, but I suspect this wouldn't be true at all once you control for age.

All of the following are benefits.  Less likely to be infected.  Less likely to spread infection to others if you are infected.  Less likely to become seriously ill.  Less likely to die.

I'd love to see the data for your first point if you come across it because I don't think it is accurate.

I think the benefits list is skewed because most studies look at vaccinated vs unvaccinated and don't account specifically for the previously infected.  All this data is all changing with Omicron as well. 

We really need to get to the point of nuancing the discussion as well. Someone vaccinated with J&J 8-9 months ago falls in the vaccinated camp, but its widely accepted they aren't well protected right now.  It would be nice to see the real world data about how each vaccine is actually performing.

Some countries are actually taking the time to breakdown each vaccine used into categories to best treat people based on demographics. I wish we spent more time doing that. 

 

[-fish-]

https://www.comirnaty.com/

Huh.  Pfizer explains that they are interchangeable on the very first page.   The only difference is the color of the cap an the label on the vial, since it is solely a branding issue.   

Stop this nonsense.   

 

[Max Power]

the "legal distinction" is a branding issue only.   the vaccine is exactly the same.

you either don't understand this or are being purposely disingenuous.  I believe it is the second, and this falls under needlessly spreading misinformation.   

because people are influenced by misinformation and are refusing the vaccines because if it, we need mandates.  in cases like this, the same people that oppose mandates are the ones that make them necessary.   

I cited a court case where a judge heard the arguement and gave his thoughts. The "legal distinction" is that Comirnaty is FDA approved, while Pfizer BioNtech is not. We'll keep going around and around on this.  I have some documents at DoD legal to clarify and considering how long they have been there, it isn't an easy answer. 

 

[-fish-]

I cited a court case where a judge heard the arguement and gave his thoughts. The "legal distinction" is that Comirnaty is FDA approved, while Pfizer BioNtech is not. We'll keep going around and around on this.  I have some documents at DoD legal to clarify and considering how long they have been there, it isn't an easy answer. 

yes, they are legally distinct...for the purposes of branding.   the contents of the vial are identical.  

as long as you continue to try to spread this falsehood, it is impossible to consider you credible as to any other argument.  you see that, right?

 

[Max Power]

https://www.comirnaty.com/

Huh.  Pfizer explains that they are interchangeable on the very first page.   The only difference is the color of the cap an the label on the vial, since it is solely a branding issue.   

Stop this nonsense.   

And Comirnaty is not available in the United States. I keep telling you guys to call Pfizer, but you don't. 

 

[Max Power]

yes, they are legally distinct...for the purposes of branding.   the contents of the vial are identical.  

as long as you continue to try to spread this falsehood, it is impossible to consider you credible as to any other argument.  you see that, right?

I know you see life that way, but I do not. Don't you want the unvaxxed confined to our homes and removed from society?  That kills your sense of morality in any argument. 

 

[-fish-]

 claiming you know of a case is not "citing a court case."

until you post the opinion, I am assuming that you just don't understand it or are misrepresenting what it says, just like you are misrepresenting Pfizer's own statements and those of the FDA.

 

[-fish-]

And Comirnaty is not available in the United States. I keep telling you guys to call Pfizer, but you don't. 

unfortunately, your continued misrepresentations, even in the face of statements by both Pfizer and the FDA, means that none of your statements can be taken seriously.   

 

[The Commish]

Yes, and those distinctions are still in place.  Pfizer BioNtech vaccine is not an FDA approved vaccine.

for those 11 and under...right.  Help line will tell you that.  The cocktail is exactly the same, which they will also tell you.  They won't jump into your conspiracy theory world because of the "legal implications", which they will also tell you.  I know, I called.  Everyone should call.  See, we can agree on things.

ETA:  I do appreciate you moved off the "there has to be something different about them that they aren't telling us.  shame on them for saying X is approved but giving us Y instead" stuff.....that's progress  

 

[Max Power]

 claiming you know of a case is not "citing a court case."

until you post the opinion, I am assuming that you just don't understand it or are misrepresenting what it says, just like you are misrepresenting Pfizer's own statements and those of the FDA.

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1GJK_7afp6XHoB0Yo4dKopBCL7BYUqI1765uXF6FBJ-0/mobilebasic

 

[The Z Machine]

So my colleague in Marketing won't be allowed to go to a big trade show in January because he's not fully vaxxed. Instead they offered his spot to me, the engineer to man the product booth.  I can't go due to other conflicts, but a) even if my colleague isn't let go due to a mandate, he's jeopardizing his career by not being able to do a portion of his job. B) the Director of Marketing that I spoke to mentioned that there weren't enough Marketing personnel that 'can' go... I'm surprised that the uptake in Marketing is so low, while it's comparatively higher for the Engineering ranks.

 

[The Z Machine]

Oh, and I've wanted to go to this trade show for years...

Guess I'll have to gambol in New Orleans this weekend instead.

Stay the eff away from Louisiana, Omicron!!!

 

[-fish-]

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1GJK_7afp6XHoB0Yo4dKopBCL7BYUqI1765uXF6FBJ-0/mobilebasic

yeah, the plaintiffs making your argument lost.  you have it wrong.

oh, and they lost badly.   

 

[Max Power]

yeah, the plaintiffs making your argument lost.  you have it wrong.

Don't ignore the judge's ruling on the claim itself. I understand the suit was denied, but the judge's claim about how non interchangeable the vaccines are was the point.

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

Visited my grandson in the hospital yesterday. In addition to answering questions about Covid I was also asked if I was exposed to anyone with measles or chicken pox.  Incredible.  Vaccines for all of these infectious diseases and the latter have all but been eradicated.  Somehow the "freedom" of some includes infringement of the health of others.  I'm sure polio outbreaks won't be far behind. 

Over 800,000 Americans are dead because of Covid.  More than 160,000 UNVACCINATED Americans dead since June. It's believed most of these people, your loved ones, friends, neighbors, would still be here if they were vaccinated. 

The elected officials who continue to consolidate power by feeding their base these conspiracy theories, are truly evil people.  They don't care if you are healthy or dead, just that they get enough votes to retain power.  They don't care about you. Know that. 

 

[-fish-]

Don't ignore the judge's ruling on the claim itself. I understand the suit was denied, but the judge's claim about how non interchangeable the vaccines are was the point.

You either didn't read or didn't understand the decision.  They are the same, interchangeable vaccine.  The only distinction is approval status, and that some batches were manufactured at facilities not approved in the BLA, so those continue to have to be labeled for EUA use only.  

This is what the judge actually ruled:

In short, what people think of as the Pfizer vaccine has two distinct FDA approval statuses. It is licensed—that is, fully approved—for the two-dose  application in those 16 and older.*   But it is unlicensed and operating under an EUA— that is, an emergency use authorization—for other applications, like for children  under 16 and for certain third shots.** Nonetheless, the FDA describes the two as the  “same formulation” and “interchangeabl[e]” for medical purposes. See ECF No. 1- 6 at 3 n.8.5 

asterisks mine

*in this situation, it is called by its brand name, Cominarty.   Drug companies cannot use a brand name for a drug until it receives FDA approval.   The vaccine, as administered for the two dose application in 16 and older, is Cominarty, regardless of the color of the cap on the vial or the label itself.

**in this situation, it is called by the EUA name, Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.  The vaccines are one and the same.  The only difference is the label and the color of the cap on the vial.

 

[The Commish]

You either didn't read or didn't understand the decision.  They are the same, interchangeable vaccine.  The only distinction is approval status, and that some batches were manufactured at facilities not approved in the BLA, so those continue to have to be labeled for EUA use only.  

This is what the judge actually ruled:

In short, what people think of as the Pfizer vaccine has two distinct FDA approval statuses. It is licensed—that is, fully approved—for the two-dose  application in those 16 and older.*   But it is unlicensed and operating under an EUA— that is, an emergency use authorization—for other applications, like for children  under 16 and for certain third shots.** Nonetheless, the FDA describes the two as the  “same formulation” and “interchangeabl[e]” for medical purposes. See ECF No. 1- 6 at 3 n.8.5 

asterisks mine

*in this situation, it is called by its brand name, Cominarty.   Drug companies cannot use a brand name for a drug until it receives FDA approval.   The vaccine, as administered for the two dose application in 16 and older, is Cominarty, regardless of the color of the cap on the vial or the label itself.

**in this situation, it is called by the EUA name, Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.  The vaccines are one and the same.  The only difference is the label and the color of the cap on the vial.

as was said and pointed out several times at the very beginning

 

[-fish-]

For those that don't want to read the whole case, the DoD was mandating vaccinations.   Plaintiffs argued that they couldn't mandate vaccinations because the DoD was using vials that weren't labeled as Cominarty, and therefore a vaccine that wasn't approved by the FDA.  Plaintiffs lost because it's the same vaccine.

 

[tonydead]

And GTFO with this bull####.  This is EXACTLY what I told you in the other thread was the reason for the difference when you were claiming there was some other nefarious reason and that they weren't the same vaccine.  There are two programs in the exact same group (HRSA) that are funded the exact same way but have to be separate for the different stages of approval.  

You pissed and moaned about this for pages in that thread saying that was "just my guess" or some #### like that....GTFO with this crap 

. I hear breathing in a paper bag helps.  

Shutting down the covid thread sure did a lot of good.  

 

[Insein]

So my colleague in Marketing won't be allowed to go to a big trade show in January because he's not fully vaxxed. Instead they offered his spot to me, the engineer to man the product booth.  I can't go due to other conflicts, but a) even if my colleague isn't let go due to a mandate, he's jeopardizing his career by not being able to do a portion of his job. B) the Director of Marketing that I spoke to mentioned that there weren't enough Marketing personnel that 'can' go... I'm surprised that the uptake in Marketing is so low, while it's comparatively higher for the Engineering ranks.

To be clear, your colleague is not jeopardizing his career. His company is threatening him based on medical discrimination. 

 

[The Z Machine]

To be clear, your colleague is not jeopardizing his career. His company is threatening him based on medical discrimination. 

Sure, bro.  We're all under the thumb of our corporate overlords.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

So my colleague in Marketing won't be allowed to go to a big trade show in January because he's not fully vaxxed. Instead they offered his spot to me, the engineer to man the product booth.  I can't go due to other conflicts, but a) even if my colleague isn't let go due to a mandate, he's jeopardizing his career by not being able to do a portion of his job. B) the Director of Marketing that I spoke to mentioned that there weren't enough Marketing personnel that 'can' go... I'm surprised that the uptake in Marketing is so low, while it's comparatively higher for the Engineering ranks.

For a minute I just imagined all the booths of a trade show manned by engineers instead of marketing reps and, well, "it moved".

 

[Mile High]

Federal appeals court reinstates Biden administration's business vaccine and testing mandate.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/17/federal-court-reinstates-biden-administrations-business-vaccine-mandate.html

 

[the rover]

Federal appeals court reinstates Biden administration's business vaccine and testing mandate.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/17/federal-court-reinstates-biden-administrations-business-vaccine-mandate.html

this was expected.  going to be interesting to see that happens at the SC and whether law or politics carries the day.