Vick accepts plea deal (1 Viewer)

[Big Score]

Oh...well...since he was driving drunk & only UNINTENTIONALLY killed someobe, that makes that persons loss of life less important than the dogs Vick drowned.Dead is dead regardless of circumstances & a Human Beings life > Dogs life. I imagine the parents, husband, kids & friends of the lady Little killed, might disagree with you on how you rank Little's crime - vs - Vick's crimes.

And again ... none of this is important.

Maybe to you it's not important, but I'm looking at the bigger picture. Personally, I find it a sickening picture of our society, when a person can take another persons life while driving drunk, or be an eyewitness to two brutal stabbing murders & then help the murderers get off scott free by their silence, while somebody else who takes some dogs lives & gambles, has garnered far more public outrage, is looking at a longer prison sentence & a tougher suspension from the NFL.What is wrong with us?

The NFL agrees. Thats why they are taking a different/better path today.

Too bad our justice system & public opinion doesn't follow the NFL's lead eh?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Oh...well...since he was driving drunk & only UNINTENTIONALLY killed someobe, that makes that persons loss of life less important than the dogs Vick drowned.Dead is dead regardless of circumstances & a Human Beings life > Dogs life. I imagine the parents, husband, kids & friends of the lady Little killed, might disagree with you on how you rank Little's crime - vs - Vick's crimes.

And again ... none of this is important.

Maybe to you it's not important, but I'm looking at the bigger picture. Personally, I find it a sickening picture of our society, when a person can take another persons life while driving drunk, or be an eyewitness to two brutal stabbing murders & then help the murderers get off scott free by their silence, while somebody else who takes some dogs lives & gambles, has garnered far more public outrage, is looking at a longer prison sentence & a tougher suspension from the NFL.What is wrong with us?

The NFL agrees. Thats why they are taking a different/better path today.

Too bad our justice system & public opinion doesn't follow the NFL's lead eh?

Some think is Vick is complete garbage. Some think the same way of Little or Lewis. Everyone has a different take and its okay.

 

[Doug B]

Maybe to you it's not important, but I'm looking at the bigger picture. Personally, I find it a sickening picture of our society, when a person can take another persons life while driving drunk, or be an eyewitness to two brutal stabbing murders & then help the murderers get off scott free by their silence, while somebody else who takes some dogs lives & gambles, has garnered far more public outrage, is looking at a longer prison sentence & a tougher suspension from the NFL.What is wrong with us?

Nothing -- in fact, from your point of view, we're making progress. Vick is probably just the tip of the iceberg ... perhaps now athletes will be on shorter leashes. I'd rather not use Leonard Little as the gold standard of "athlete justice" going forward.If another guy were to pull the DWI/vehicular homicide combo in 2007? That dude's out of football. Leonard Little got lucky -- he wasn't the face of a franchise, and he benefitted from Tagliabue's relatively blind eye (Don't ask me why Little didn't serve more prison time). Ray Lewis was lucky the prosecution had so little corroborating evidence (What? FBGuys know exactly what happened ... but a jury couldn't be convinced?).

 

[Homer]

As a parent this sickens me. We hate the Falcons in our household, but if I were a Falcons fan I can't imagine buying jersey's for my son, taking him to games and generally getting him excited about an exciting hometown player only to have to explain to him later on that the guy murdered dogs. I hope Goodell does the right thing and permanently ban him from the NFL with no option for re-instatement. Players need to know that if they screw up, they'll lose it all.

So do you let him watch South Carolina GAMECOCKS games? Or don't murdered chickens count?

 

[Sweat Hog]

This again. Little didn't electrocute, drown, hang or beat a person to death. He drove drunk and UNINTENTIONALLY caused an accident and someone died. Not murder, homicide. Malice and intent are lacking in the Little case.

Oh...well...since he was driving drunk & only UNINTENTIONALLY killed someobe, that makes that persons loss of life less important than the dogs Vick drowned.Dead is dead regardless of circumstances & a Human Beings life > Dogs life. I imagine the parents, husband, kids & friends of the lady Little killed, might disagree with you on how you rank Little's crime - vs - Vick's crimes.

Never said what Little did was LESS than Vick's crimes. We were discussing society's(and specifically NFL fan's) forgive and forget attitude in general and my arguement was that on the forgiveness scale, what Little did was much more understandable(as in, "There but for the grace of God go I") as opposed to "I get my rocks of gambling and killing innocent animals and do so on a large scale and don't give a **** what society thinks."One is a one time offense that tragically led to someone's death and the other shows a pattern of antisocial, psychotic behavior that is much less understandable and therefore much less forgiveable.

 

[Doug B]

Maybe to you it's not important, but I'm looking at the bigger picture.

BigScore, I should have been more clear: Little's case will have no bearing on (a) Vick's sentencing, or (b) Goodell's determination of suspension.

 

[TheFanatic]

Per Roger something (sorry, forget last name):

Feds would agree to drop superseding indictment. Feds usually ask the local DA to not pursue additional charges, however they are free to press charges if they so choose. State authorities are still free to press charges.

The word "press" is the key to this. State District Attorney's are elected officials. Just mentioning that he will pursue Vick will get Poindexter national press attention (as it already has). This is a dream case for a political animal. It doesn't really matter if he can pull the case off. But if he stands at the podium and gets all biblical on Vick's ### about the events that happened he is almost assured re-election if not a possible run for the governorship. Maybe Senator or Rep from the state. Remember the Duke Lacrosse case? That guy was totally motivated by the publicity to help his political campaign. Same thing is happening here.

Now Poindexter has to find some charges that the feds didn't charge Vick with so he doesn't violate Vick's right not to be tried for the same offense twice which is what his attorney's will be arguing when the state files charges.

 

[strong]

Haven't heard anyone mention the 2007 season counting towards his suspension...

Since he probably won't be sentenced until November or so, which will be around week 10 or 11...

I see a small possibility that he misses two full seasons and is available for 2009...

Just a thought...

 

[suchislife]

Oh...well...since he was driving drunk & only UNINTENTIONALLY killed someobe, that makes that persons loss of life less important than the dogs Vick drowned.Dead is dead regardless of circumstances & a Human Beings life > Dogs life. I imagine the parents, husband, kids & friends of the lady Little killed, might disagree with you on how you rank Little's crime - vs - Vick's crimes.

And again ... none of this is important.

Maybe to you it's not important, but I'm looking at the bigger picture. Personally, I find it a sickening picture of our society, when a person can take another persons life while driving drunk, or be an eyewitness to two brutal stabbing murders & then help the murderers get off scott free by their silence, while somebody else who takes some dogs lives & gambles, has garnered far more public outrage, is looking at a longer prison sentence & a tougher suspension from the NFL.What is wrong with us?

Yeah, that's kinda f'ed up huh. But since I can't do anything about what's happened in the past I'm gonna hope Vick gets the full punishment allowed by law. And since the NFL commish never bothered to ask *my* opinion (or that of the FBG's message board), here's to hoping Goodell does the right thing and makes sure all scum are banned from the NFL.

 

[Homer]

Haven't heard anyone mention the 2007 season counting towards his suspension... Since he probably won't be sentenced until November or so, which will be around week 10 or 11... I see a small possibility that he misses two full seasons and is available for 2009... Just a thought...

This is an excellent point -- If Vick was banned from training camp, and now just waiting for NFL suspension terms while waiting to be sentenced, he should make the case that he's already under de facto suspension. There are a ton of other players that are allowed to practice and/or play while awaiting legal ramifications, why is Vick's case so different? Because a bunch of people are horrified by what he did? As many others have pointed out already, the NFL's full of lowlifes already, and not much of an example was made of them.

 

[Doug B]

As many others have pointed out already, the NFL's full of lowlifes already, and not much of an example was made of them.

Gotta start somewhere.

 

[strong]

Haven't heard anyone mention the 2007 season counting towards his suspension... Since he probably won't be sentenced until November or so, which will be around week 10 or 11... I see a small possibility that he misses two full seasons and is available for 2009... Just a thought...

This is an excellent point -- If Vick was banned from training camp, and now just waiting for NFL suspension terms while waiting to be sentenced, he should make the case that he's already under de facto suspension. There are a ton of other players that are allowed to practice and/or play while awaiting legal ramifications, why is Vick's case so different? Because a bunch of people are horrified by what he did? As many others have pointed out already, the NFL's full of lowlifes already, and not much of an example was made of them.

It's an interesting thought... It would be a little twist to the whole scenario if the NFL handed down a 16 game suspension that counted any games missed this year prior to his prison sentence... But it seems to me that since the NFL is intent on keeping Vick off the field this year, they would have to suspend him now. It's either that or let him attend camp and play now that he's entered his plea. So Vick could be looking at a 6 game suspension after he is released from prison and signs with a team...

 

[suchislife]

Haven't heard anyone mention the 2007 season counting towards his suspension... Since he probably won't be sentenced until November or so, which will be around week 10 or 11... I see a small possibility that he misses two full seasons and is available for 2009... Just a thought...

This is an excellent point -- If Vick was banned from training camp, and now just waiting for NFL suspension terms while waiting to be sentenced, he should make the case that he's already under de facto suspension. There are a ton of other players that are allowed to practice and/or play while awaiting legal ramifications, why is Vick's case so different? Because a bunch of people are horrified by what he did? As many others have pointed out already, the NFL's full of lowlifes already, and not much of an example was made of them.

Except Vick is NOT suspended. He's actually still being paid. Vick is on a voluntary leave of absence. If he's suspended it won't begin until after his prison term.

 

[Big Score]

This again. Little didn't electrocute, drown, hang or beat a person to death. He drove drunk and UNINTENTIONALLY caused an accident and someone died. Not murder, homicide. Malice and intent are lacking in the Little case.

Oh...well...since he was driving drunk & only UNINTENTIONALLY killed someobe, that makes that persons loss of life less important than the dogs Vick drowned.

Dead is dead regardless of circumstances & a Human Beings life > Dogs life.

I imagine the parents, husband, kids & friends of the lady Little killed, might disagree with you on how you rank Little's crime - vs - Vick's crimes.

Never said what Little did was LESS than Vick's crimes. We were discussing society's(and specifically NFL fan's) forgive and forget attitude in general and my arguement was that on the forgiveness scale, what Little did was much more understandable(as in, "There but for the grace of God go I") as opposed to "I get my rocks of gambling and killing innocent animals and do so on a large scale and don't give a **** what society thinks."One is a one time offense that tragically led to someone's death and the other shows a pattern of antisocial, psychotic behavior that is much less understandable and therefore much less forgiveable.

Little's was not a one time offense. He had another Drunk Driving Charge against him AFTER he'd already killed that lady.

After a drunken birthday in 1998, NFL star Leonard Little crashed into and killed another motorist. When tested, his blood alcohol level measured 0.19 percent. Little received 60 days and 1000 hours of community service. Six years later, after the involuntary manslaughter conviction was wiped from his record, Little was again arrested for drunk driving.

Leonard Little & DUI'sSeems to me that shows a similar pattern of antisocial, psychotic behavior towards human beings that is much less understandable and therefore much less forgiveable...to me anyway.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Gotta start somewhere.

 

[Big Score]

Maybe to you it's not important, but I'm looking at the bigger picture.

BigScore, I should have been more clear: Little's case will have no bearing on (a) Vick's sentencing, or (b) Goodell's determination of suspension.

Gotcha'

 

[Doug B]

After a drunken birthday in 1998, NFL star Leonard Little crashed into and killed another motorist. When tested, his blood alcohol level measured 0.19 percent. Little received 60 days and 1000 hours of community service. Six years later, after the involuntary manslaughter conviction was wiped from his record, Little was again arrested for drunk driving.

Leonard Little & DUI'sSeems to me that shows a similar pattern of antisocial, psychotic behavior towards human beings that is much less understandable and therefore much less forgiveable...to me anyway.

I have to say, Little got off incredibly lightly in the justice system. I can't think of why, either. I do think things would be a lot different for him if he commited such a crime in 2007. 1998 was before the Internet was truly big ... maybe the news didn't get around as fast and furious at it does now. Opinions get developed and consolidated much more quickly now via the Net.That said, I don't think his actions reflect psychosis. When sober, I'm sure that Little understands the right/wrong aspects of his behavior.

But still, none of this helps Vick.

 

[Big Score]

After a drunken birthday in 1998, NFL star Leonard Little crashed into and killed another motorist. When tested, his blood alcohol level measured 0.19 percent. Little received 60 days and 1000 hours of community service. Six years later, after the involuntary manslaughter conviction was wiped from his record, Little was again arrested for drunk driving.

Leonard Little & DUI'sSeems to me that shows a similar pattern of antisocial, psychotic behavior towards human beings that is much less understandable and therefore much less forgiveable...to me anyway.

I have to say, Little got off incredibly lightly in the justice system. I can't think of why, either. I do think things would be a lot different for him if he commited such a crime in 2007. 1998 was before the Internet was truly big ... maybe the news didn't get around as fast and furious at it does now. Opinions get developed and consolidated much more quickly now via the Net.That said, I don't think his actions reflect psychosis. When sober, I'm sure that Little understands the right/wrong aspects of his behavior.

But still, none of this helps Vick.

I dunno. Someone who kills another human being because of driving drunk & thus personally knows what the end results of his actions can be, yet continues those exact same actions, shows a complete lack of respect for human life which is the definition of psychotic behavior.

Psychotic Behaviour: Inability or opposition to recognize and accept reality and to relate this to others.

But you're right though, none of this helps Vick.It's just that I can't fathom how our society can direct so much indignation & venom at Vick, while Little kills a human being drunk driving & six years later he's STILL out there driving drunk, yet the public outcry against Little was nowhere near what we see today with Vick.

How has our society become so jaded?

 

[cobalt_27]

After a drunken birthday in 1998, NFL star Leonard Little crashed into and killed another motorist. When tested, his blood alcohol level measured 0.19 percent. Little received 60 days and 1000 hours of community service. Six years later, after the involuntary manslaughter conviction was wiped from his record, Little was again arrested for drunk driving.

Leonard Little & DUI'sSeems to me that shows a similar pattern of antisocial, psychotic behavior towards human beings that is much less understandable and therefore much less forgiveable...to me anyway.

I have to say, Little got off incredibly lightly in the justice system. I can't think of why, either. I do think things would be a lot different for him if he commited such a crime in 2007. 1998 was before the Internet was truly big ... maybe the news didn't get around as fast and furious at it does now. Opinions get developed and consolidated much more quickly now via the Net.That said, I don't think his actions reflect psychosis. When sober, I'm sure that Little understands the right/wrong aspects of his behavior.

But still, none of this helps Vick.

I dunno. Someone who kills another human being because of driving drunk & thus personally knows what the end results of his actions can be, yet continues those exact same actions, shows a complete lack of respect for human life which is the definition of psychotic behavior.

Psychotic Behaviour: Inability or opposition to recognize and accept reality and to relate this to others.

But you're right though, none of this helps Vick.It's just that I can't fathom how our society can direct so much indignation & venom at Vick, while Little kills a human being drunk driving & six years later he's STILL out there driving drunk, yet the public outcry against Little was nowhere near what we see today with Vick.

How has our society become so jaded?

Is it that you can't fathom how our society has such indignation towards Vick, or is it that we paid such small attention to the Little story? Not sure why the two are being tied together here. Seems like we should be indignant of both, no? Or, are you not sure why dog fighting is such an awful enterprise? I'm inferring you feel that way by how your post came across.

 

[cobalt_27]

Haven't heard anyone mention the 2007 season counting towards his suspension... Since he probably won't be sentenced until November or so, which will be around week 10 or 11... I see a small possibility that he misses two full seasons and is available for 2009... Just a thought...

This is an excellent point -- If Vick was banned from training camp, and now just waiting for NFL suspension terms while waiting to be sentenced, he should make the case that he's already under de facto suspension. There are a ton of other players that are allowed to practice and/or play while awaiting legal ramifications, why is Vick's case so different? Because a bunch of people are horrified by what he did? As many others have pointed out already, the NFL's full of lowlifes already, and not much of an example was made of them.

Except Vick is NOT suspended. He's actually still being paid. Vick is on a voluntary leave of absence. If he's suspended it won't begin until after his prison term.

Nah. He'll be suspended "indefinitely" once the judge sentences him to his jail term.

 

[suchislife]

Haven't heard anyone mention the 2007 season counting towards his suspension... Since he probably won't be sentenced until November or so, which will be around week 10 or 11... I see a small possibility that he misses two full seasons and is available for 2009... Just a thought...

This is an excellent point -- If Vick was banned from training camp, and now just waiting for NFL suspension terms while waiting to be sentenced, he should make the case that he's already under de facto suspension. There are a ton of other players that are allowed to practice and/or play while awaiting legal ramifications, why is Vick's case so different? Because a bunch of people are horrified by what he did? As many others have pointed out already, the NFL's full of lowlifes already, and not much of an example was made of them.

Except Vick is NOT suspended. He's actually still being paid. Vick is on a voluntary leave of absence. If he's suspended it won't begin until after his prison term.

Nah. He'll be suspended "indefinitely" once the judge sentences him to his jail term.

I agree he will be. But right now he's on a voluntary leave of absence - with pay. I would expect he'll be suspended indefinitely after he enters his guilty plea. I've heard either Clayton or Mort (both?) today on ESPNews say they expect him to be suspended indefinitely and have to apply for reinstatement after his sentence. They also said they expect something along the lines of a 1 year suspension *after* his release from prison.

 

[Big Score]

Is it that you can't fathom how our society has such indignation towards Vick,

No

or is it that we paid such small attention to the Little story?

Yes

Not sure why the two are being tied together here. Seems like we should be indignant of both, no?

Agreed, but why is society so much more indignant about a person killing dogs, than a person who has already killed one human being while driving drunk & CONTINUES to drive drunk?

Or, are you not sure why dog fighting is such an awful enterprise? I'm inferring you feel that way by how your post came across.

Then you are inferring incorrectly. I thought my post was fairly clear, but apparently it wasn't. While Vick's actions are unforgivable, I'm dumbfounded, disgusted & sickened that our society is exhibiting far more outrage over Vick's transgressions, than Little's.

 

[Tom Servo]

Is it that you can't fathom how our society has such indignation towards Vick,

No

or is it that we paid such small attention to the Little story?

Yes

Not sure why the two are being tied together here. Seems like we should be indignant of both, no?

Agreed, but why is society so much more indignant about a person killing dogs, than a person who has already killed one human being while driving drunk & CONTINUES to drive drunk?

Or, are you not sure why dog fighting is such an awful enterprise? I'm inferring you feel that way by how your post came across.

Then you are inferring incorrectly. I thought my post was fairly clear, but apparently it wasn't. While Vick's actions are unforgivable, I'm dumbfounded, disgusted & sickened that our society is exhibiting far more outrage over Vick's transgressions, than Little's.

X 4My sentiments exactly, Big Score.

 

[cobalt_27]

Is it that you can't fathom how our society has such indignation towards Vick,

No

or is it that we paid such small attention to the Little story?

Yes

Not sure why the two are being tied together here. Seems like we should be indignant of both, no?

Agreed, but why is society so much more indignant about a person killing dogs, than a person who has already killed one human being while driving drunk & CONTINUES to drive drunk?

Or, are you not sure why dog fighting is such an awful enterprise? I'm inferring you feel that way by how your post came across.

Then you are inferring incorrectly. I thought my post was fairly clear, but apparently it wasn't. While Vick's actions are unforgivable, I'm dumbfounded, disgusted & sickened that our society is exhibiting far more outrage over Vick's transgressions, than Little's.

I guess I would have just said that I'm dumbfounded, disgusted and sickened that our society hasn't exhibited more outrage over the Little situation, just in general. The way you've pitted the two situations together, it makes it seem as though you're dismissing the rightful outrage over what Vick's done.

 

[kevthegrad]

I tell you I'm loving this. Never been a Vick fan. Terrible passing QB, albeit a pretty good RB who throws a lot.

Bye bye animal killer. Hope I never see you on my TV again...at least while you're being paid for it.

 

[Sweat Hog]

Is it that you can't fathom how our society has such indignation towards Vick,

No

or is it that we paid such small attention to the Little story?

Yes

Not sure why the two are being tied together here. Seems like we should be indignant of both, no?

Agreed, but why is society so much more indignant about a person killing dogs, than a person who has already killed one human being while driving drunk & CONTINUES to drive drunk?

Or, are you not sure why dog fighting is such an awful enterprise? I'm inferring you feel that way by how your post came across.

Then you are inferring incorrectly. I thought my post was fairly clear, but apparently it wasn't. While Vick's actions are unforgivable, I'm dumbfounded, disgusted & sickened that our society is exhibiting far more outrage over Vick's transgressions, than Little's.

I guess I would have just said that I'm dumbfounded, disgusted and sickened that our society hasn't exhibited more outrage over the Little situation, just in general. The way you've pitted the two situations together, it makes it seem as though you're dismissing the rightful outrage over what Vick's done.

And how long ago was the Little incident?Also, you may want to consider Vick's profile in the league - face of the Falcons franchise, face of Nike and several other major national sponsors and one of the top 5 most recognizable NFL players. Your average person did not know who Little was and although I vaguely remember the Little story, I'm sure because he was a semi-famous person due simply to being an NFL player, there was appropriate media coverage and "outrage".

There are local stories everyday about murder, rape, child molestation...etc. They are not national news because the parties involved are not famous. I don't get my panties in a wad because one story doesn't get the same run as the next - especially when one incident occurred many years prior. Call me crazy but I think this might just give me a coronary.

Your disgust is duely noted but maybe you need to consider the parties involved and the reasons why there is so much attention being paid.

Maybe start a poll asking people to rate the seriousness of various crimes without naming parties involved. You might just see that most people have a pretty good grip on this and you can sleep well again knowing YOUR moral compass is ok.

Comparing Little to Vick is completely apples and oranges in just about every aspect other than they both played in the NFL.

 

[cobalt_27]

Is it that you can't fathom how our society has such indignation towards Vick,

No

or is it that we paid such small attention to the Little story?

Yes

Not sure why the two are being tied together here. Seems like we should be indignant of both, no?

Agreed, but why is society so much more indignant about a person killing dogs, than a person who has already killed one human being while driving drunk & CONTINUES to drive drunk?

Or, are you not sure why dog fighting is such an awful enterprise? I'm inferring you feel that way by how your post came across.

Then you are inferring incorrectly. I thought my post was fairly clear, but apparently it wasn't. While Vick's actions are unforgivable, I'm dumbfounded, disgusted & sickened that our society is exhibiting far more outrage over Vick's transgressions, than Little's.

I guess I would have just said that I'm dumbfounded, disgusted and sickened that our society hasn't exhibited more outrage over the Little situation, just in general. The way you've pitted the two situations together, it makes it seem as though you're dismissing the rightful outrage over what Vick's done.

And how long ago was the Little incident?Also, you may want to consider Vick's profile in the league - face of the Falcons franchise, face of Nike and several other major national sponsors and one of the top 5 most recognizable NFL players. Your average person did not know who Little was and although I vaguely remember the Little story, I'm sure because he was a semi-famous person due simply to being an NFL player, there was appropriate media coverage and "outrage".

There are local stories everyday about murder, rape, child molestation...etc. They are not national news because the parties involved are not famous. I don't get my panties in a wad because one story doesn't get the same run as the next - especially when one incident occurred many years prior. Call me crazy but I think this might just give me a coronary.

Your disgust is duely noted but maybe you need to consider the parties involved and the reasons why there is so much attention being paid.

Maybe start a poll asking people to rate the seriousness of various crimes without naming parties involved. You might just see that most people have a pretty good grip on this and you can sleep well again knowing YOUR moral compass is ok.

Comparing Little to Vick is completely apples and oranges in just about every aspect other than they both played in the NFL.

It's sort of like comparing a congressman who has an affair versus a president who gets a hummer from an intern. It's Michael Freaking Vick! He sold more jerseys than anybody in recent years (I have the right, correct?). It's natural for us to gravitate towards a story that has a face we all know and can talk about over the watercooler. Leonard Little is/was obscure.

It's like a cocktail--(1) part the crime, (4) parts the name. Vick is the known commodity, which is why it registers on everyone's radar.

 

[Big Score]

Comparing Little to Vick is completely apples and oranges in just about every aspect other than they both played in the NFL.

Agreed.One killed a human being. (Apples)One killed dogs. (Oranges)One went to jail for 60 days for killing a human being while driving drunk, is back to playing in the NFL & we know for a fact that as recently as 2004, was still driving drunk. (Apples)One will be going to jail for at least 12 months, probably more, for killing dogs & probably out of the NFL forever. (Oranges)

 

[Doug B]

Points taken, Big Score ... but I, personally, don't want Vick treated with kid gloves just because Little was. As far as outrage: directed at Little right now, nothing is accomplished -- it would be closing the barn door after the horses ran off. The time for outrage at Little has come and gone. He's served his ridiculously short sentence. His career is over, or very close to over (he's not still playing, is he?).

Compare it to people going after Ted Kennedy for Chappaquiddick -- they may well be right, but that ship sailed almost 40 years ago. Bringing up "Chappaquiddick" now comes off as a low blow, and comes off as not relevant to whatever Kennedy is doing now.

Indignation at Michael Vick is in the here and now, and gets you some bang for the buck. Society's disapproval of Vick cost him now, and helps set a strong precedent for holding other athletes more accountable for their off-field actions in the future.

How many here agree that both the social and legal consequences of Little's 1998 DWI/VH would be far greater today than they were 9 years ago? The microscope on athletes is much more finely tuned than it was in the late 90s, and I think we're seeing the tolerance for athletes' criminal behavior is dwindling rapidly.

 

[Big Score]

Points taken, Big Score ... but I, personally, don't want Vick treated with kid gloves just because Little was. As far as outrage: directed at Little right now, nothing is accomplished -- it would be closing the barn door after the horses ran off. The time for outrage at Little has come and gone. He's served his ridiculously short sentence. His career is over, or very close to over (he's not still playing, is he?).

Compare it to people going after Ted Kennedy for Chappaquiddick -- they may well be right, but that ship sailed almost 40 years ago. Bringing up "Chappaquiddick" now comes off as a low blow, and comes off as not relevant to whatever Kennedy is doing now.

Indignation at Michael Vick is in the here and now, and gets you some bang for the buck. Society's disapproval of Vick cost him now, and helps set a strong precedent for holding other athletes more accountable for their off-field actions in the future.

How many here agree that both the social and legal consequences of Little's 1998 DWI/VH would be far greater today than they were 9 years ago? The microscope on athletes is much more finely tuned than it was in the late 90s, and I think we're seeing the tolerance for athletes' criminal behavior is dwindling rapidly.

Considering that Little was arrested for another DUI just 3 years ago, but got off on a technicality, not sure I agree with the social & legal consequences being any greater today than they were 9 years ago.Now if you're only talking the NFL, is Goodell tougher than Tags? No doubt & that's a good thing. But it ends there IMO & that's been my point all along.

If you want something in the here & now, just look at Pacman's transgression - vs - Vick's.

Pacman was involved with paralyzing another human being. This person will NEVER EVER walk again. He WILL be in a wheel chair & in pain the rest of his natural life. His family & friends will have to take care of him for years & years.

So between Vick's transgression & Pacman's transgression, which is generating more moral outrage from John Q public?

A human being bound to a wheel chair in pain for the rest of his life, or some dead dogs?

Our country's moral compass is so far out of whack, that it's no wonder we're the most murderous nation on the entire planet....& by a long ways at that.

Do you see what I mean Doug B?

 

[Doug B]

Do you see what I mean Doug B?

I see what you mean, but I don't agree. I don't think it's legitimate to keep on comparing this case or that case of human suffering to the suffering inflicted on Vick's dogs.A few things just occured to me that might help shed light on why Vick's actions hit harder in the gut than random acts of human suffering:

1) Think about the difference between the rep of someone who walked up to a grown man and shot him in the head versus someone who walked up to a 3-year-old child and did the same thing. The first guy might have street cred and be a jailhouse hero ... the second guy is lower than whale poop even to the most demented of criminals.

I think it's a similar ethic on display for dog-killers. Not among people who have dog-fighting as part of their culture, but among mainstream American society. I mean, me ... I can wrap my head around a perpetrator killing someone during a mugging. It's heinous, but I can understand the victim resisting, panicking the mugger, and a struggle leading to a gunshot. I can't wrap my head around electrocuting dogs that have just gotten mauled in a ring by another dog. I don't understand those mental processes ... so to me the devil I don't know seems more ominous than the devil I do know.

2) With human-inflicted suffering on other humans, we can put ourselves in the place of the victim and deal with it that way. You could say "that could be me getting T-boned by a drunk driver". I feel like I can understand the parameters affecting human-on-human suffering ... and somehow, that makes it easier to take. Some may disagree and feel the human factor actually makes it harder to take, but everyone's mileage will vary.

I can't reach that kind of understanding for a dog. The dog depends so thoroughly upon a "pack leader" or a "master" ... the closest thing I can think of in human terms is child abuse. Like a chained-up dog, a child can't survive on its own, so a child (especially a very little one) has to suffer through any abuse their "caretaker" may wish to inflict. That's where I mentally categorize dog-torturers ... as people capable of preying on the very weak (dogs, kids, the elderly, whatever).

 

[Big Score]

Do you see what I mean Doug B?

I see what you mean, but I don't agree. I don't think it's legitimate to keep on comparing this case or that case of human suffering to the suffering inflicted on Vick's dogs.A few things just occured to me that might help shed light on why Vick's actions hit harder in the gut than random acts of human suffering:

1) Think about the difference between the rep of someone who walked up to a grown man and shot him in the head versus someone who walked up to a 3-year-old child and did the same thing. The first guy might have street cred and be a jailhouse hero ... the second guy is lower than whale poop even to the most demented of criminals.

I think it's a similar ethic on display for dog-killers. Not among people who have dog-fighting as part of their culture, but among mainstream American society. I mean, me ... I can wrap my head around a perpetrator killing someone during a mugging. It's heinous, but I can understand the victim resisting, panicking the mugger, and a struggle leading to a gunshot. I can't wrap my head around electrocuting dogs that have just gotten mauled in a ring by another dog. I don't understand those mental processes ... so to me the devil I don't know seems more ominous than the devil I do know.

2) With human-inflicted suffering on other humans, we can put ourselves in the place of the victim and deal with it that way. You could say "that could be me getting T-boned by a drunk driver". I feel like I can understand the parameters affecting human-on-human suffering ... and somehow, that makes it easier to take. Some may disagree and feel the human factor actually makes it harder to take, but everyone's mileage will vary.

I can't reach that kind of understanding for a dog. The dog depends so thoroughly upon a "pack leader" or a "master" ... the closest thing I can think of in human terms is child abuse. Like a chained-up dog, a child can't survive on its own, so a child (especially a very little one) has to suffer through any abuse their "caretaker" may wish to inflict. That's where I mentally categorize dog-torturers ... as people capable of preying on the very weak (dogs, kids, the elderly, whatever).

I do not feel that you are alone in this train of thought Doug B, but I think this is an extremely grim indictment of our society when we can rationalize / compartmentalize the death of a human being at the hands of another human being, no matter what the circumstances & reach / equate / attach similar impotance to the death of animals.

 

[Doug B]

I do not feel that you are alone in this train of thought Doug B, but I think this is an extremely grim indictment of our society when we can rationalize / compartmentalize the death of a human being at the hands of another human being, no matter what the circumstances & reach / equate / attach similar impotance to the death of animals.

We're making different dichotomies -- you're looking at it as more people vs animals. I am looking at it as "independants" (human adults, independant actors in the animal kingdom) vs "dependants" (human children, pets and other animals that are wards of people).

 

[Wilbur Wood]

A few points:

The Vick situation is not comparable at all to the Leonard Little situation:

#1 Mike Vick was a Rock Star! An icon, a legend. Any kid who ever played Madden, knows that Mike Vick "had IT".

#2 No one has ever heard of Leonard Little. He is a nobody, known only by his family and the hardest of hard core football fans. Little is no different than the wife of a doctor in the town that I live in who despite killing a mailman while driving drunk ~ 3 years ago, she has had 2 drunk driving related incidents since with the only punishment being wearing a "house arrest" ankle bracelet for a year. I'm sure that we all have our similar local first hand stories of Leonard Little. It is a society issue that belongs in the FFA and completely off point with respect to Mike Vick.

#3 I have heard several pundits, including a few FBG' folks, continue to cite the "gambling" as the bigger problem in the Vick fiasco and that the "gambling" issue will make the ultimate NFL sanctions "extreme". Now I'll acknowledge that none of us have the actual facts in hand. However, based upon what facts have been put into the public domain on the Vick Case, I think that the "gambling" aspect of this vis-a-vis the NFL is way overblown. While the NFL may "trumpet" gambling to justify its actions, it will be as a matter of cover if they do so (unless there are more onerous "gambling" facts involved). If Vick had simply been a dog breeder who competed his dogs in Dog Shows (like the one held at MSG each year) and was very competitive about his beloved dogs such that he continually wagered 10 or 20 grand with other dog breeders as to what dog would win the competition, Vick would have received nothing more than a stern lecture from Godell that any form gambling is taboo and Vick would be playing football in the NFL in 2007. Barkley and Jordan rountinely "gambled" much larger sums of money on golf matches, card games, etc. While direct person-to-person wagering (as opposed to booking bets on pro sports with a bookie) is still prohibited per the NFL policy, a violation as long as it was associated with a socially acceptable hobby would receive only a slap on the wrist.

Vick has made his own bed here and now he must pay the consequences. I do not feel that he has been treated unfairly.

 

[Big Score]

I do not feel that you are alone in this train of thought Doug B, but I think this is an extremely grim indictment of our society when we can rationalize / compartmentalize the death of a human being at the hands of another human being, no matter what the circumstances & reach / equate / attach similar impotance to the death of animals.

We're making different dichotomies -- you're looking at it as more people vs animals. I am looking at it as "independants" (human adults, independant actors in the animal kingdom) vs "dependants" (human children, pets and other animals that are wards of people).

I understand how you're looking at it / rationalizing it & unfortunately for our society, I think quite a bit of our country's population does the same. We are able to "wrap" our minds around & "understand" the death of human being at the hands of another human being. We elevate the death of an animal to that same level through attaching dependence. This line of thinking does go a long way towards explaining why our society is by far & away the murder capital of the world.

 

[Doug B]

This line of thinking does go a long way towards explaining why our society is by far & away the murder capital of the world.

Not at all -- all I am saying is that those who kill the weak (my "dependants" category up above) occupy a lower circle in hell than those that kill "the strong". But make no mistake ... they are both way down there deep. Don't confuse my position with being cavalier about human suffering.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Comparing Little to Vick is completely apples and oranges in just about every aspect other than they both played in the NFL.

Agreed.One ACCIDENTALLY killed a human being. (Apples)

One INTENTIONALLY killed dogs. (Oranges)

One went to jail for 60 days for killing a human being while driving drunk, is back to playing in the NFL & we know for a fact that as recently as 2004, was still driving drunk. (Apples)

One will be going to jail for at least 12 months, probably more, for killing dogs & probably out of the NFL forever. (Oranges)

Fixed.

 

[mad sweeney]

This has become such an FFA thread. Time to lock it or move it since there will be no more Vick news until Monday.

 

[Big Score]

Comparing Little to Vick is completely apples and oranges in just about every aspect other than they both played in the NFL.

Agreed.One ACCIDENTALLY DRUNKENLY killed a human being. (Apples)

One INTENTIONALLY killed dogs. (Oranges)

One went to jail for 60 days for killing a human being while driving drunk, is back to playing in the NFL & we know for a fact that as recently as 2004, was still driving drunk. (Apples)

One will be going to jail for at least 12 months, probably more, for killing dogs & probably out of the NFL forever. (Oranges)

Fixed.

Fixed.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

This has become such an FFA thread. Time to lock it or move it since there will be no more Vick news until Monday.

I'm heavily leaning towards :IBTL: