Vince Young Under Center More Than Most Think (1 Viewer)

[the hairy scotsman]

Some people like to knock on Vince Young's lack of time "under center", so a Texas grad I know went back and looked at the scoring database to find out some things for himself. He was able to get info on 11 games from '05. The Kansas and USC games were unavailable. Still, the result was very interesting...

In those 11 games Young was at QB for 63 TD scoring plays. Of those 63 TD scoring plays, 30 of them were run with Vince working under center. That's 48% of all TD scoring plays.

While I don't believe 48% of every play Vince ran in 2005 started with him under center, I do think the number is higher than most expect. To hear some tell it, Young was just never under center. I would venture to say upwards of 30% of all his 850 or so plays started under center. So we're looking at 250 or more plays under center. Not earth-shattering, but a lot more than zero. Hell, just his 30 TD plays from under center would probably shock the hell out of a lot of people.

If you look at the '03 and '04 seasons, you will find that Vince was under center even more back then. A vast majority of those plays in '03 & '04 were run out of a pro style offense including a lot of I formation (2 WR, FB, RB & TE) and 2 TE sets.

Now, I'm not trying to say that Young is expert at working under center and directing a pro style offense, but I do think it indicates that the ideas are not foreign to him. In fact, I would say that he's more experienced than many other highly touted qbs were when they came out of college.

Besides, as Jaws said, the literally thousands of reps Young is about to get from under center will make it second nature.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hi hairy,

What's your opinion on why they moved "Vince" to the shotgun exclusively this year?

J

 

[redman]

How many of those involved Vince dropping back and passing for a TD?

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Hi hairy,

What's your opinion on why they moved "Vince" to the shotgun exclusively this year?

J

Yeah, I get the Vince reference , but I'm also assuming you're joking when you say they moved Vince to the shotgun exclusively, right?Thta's the whole point of this post (which I'm sure you're aware I moved from the other thread...thought I'd catch it before anyone quoted it, but you're quick).

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hi hairy,

What's your opinion on why they moved "Vince" to the shotgun exclusively this year?

J

Yeah, I get the Vince reference , but I'm also assuming you're joking when you say they moved Vince to the shotgun exclusively, right?Thta's the whole point of this post (which I'm sure you're aware I moved from the other thread...thought I'd catch it before anyone quoted it, but you're quick).

Not exclusively but why so much?J

 

[caul]

seriously, how many of these td's happened from under 5 yards out and were just a normal running play? I dont like how refined the data set is, why dont they just post what percentage of passing plays vince had under center?

 

[the hairy scotsman]

How many of those involved Vince dropping back and passing for a TD?

I have no way of knowing that. I don't have the database and am not even sure I could tell you if I did. What I can tell you is that in the 11 games in question, Young threw 22 TDs and ran for 9. He threw 4 more and ran 3 more in the other 2 games.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Hi hairy,

What's your opinion on why they moved "Vince" to the shotgun exclusively this year?

J

Yeah, I get the Vince reference , but I'm also assuming you're joking when you say they moved Vince to the shotgun exclusively, right?Thta's the whole point of this post (which I'm sure you're aware I moved from the other thread...thought I'd catch it before anyone quoted it, but you're quick).

Not exclusively but why so much?J

Because it worked so damned well and had so much flexibility. Because it's what got them 50+ ppg. It's what the pro coaches who taught them the nuances of the no-huddle and the their pass routes taught them, then they just took it further when they saw what Young could do with it. This is the same offense that was being run with Chance Mock, just with more running, because Mock couldn't run like Young. If anyone says the ratio was different because Mock was a better passer than Young, then ask them why Mock's passing numbers paled next to Young's and why Mock is still a backup...in the Arena League. He got picked up by the Austin Wranglers purely on the marketing angle that he's a Texas-Ex.

The better question to me would be "Why haven't other teams who have run this offense had this kind of success, both running and passing, and why don't more teams run it?"

 

[Rovers]

In the other QB thread, where I said I had my doubts about Young's ability to run an NFL offense, it wasn't even a reference to playing under center.... like Jaws said, that can be learned.

What I wonder about is his abilty to make reads in the NFL.... identifying blitzes, playing against good 3-4 D's, being able to read man coverages to take advantage of mismatches, checking down his recievers.... and yes, it's his first Wondelic score that gives me reason to pause. I also didn't say he COULDN'T run an NFL offense, but I do have some doubts. Can a person that scores a 7 on his first attempt at a simple Wonderlic test absorb and execute an NFL playbook? Even Pittsburgh had to "dumb down" their offense for Rothelisberger. They got away with that because the team was pretty good.... much better than the teams this year's crop of QB's will likely land with.

While Texas' offense may have been a quasi-NFL based scheme, and this applies to both Leinart and Young, they had offensive lines that gave them great protection and they had recievers who could get seperation, not to mention a potent running attack..... all things Cutler did not have the benefit of. Young and Leinart will have to learn to get it done with more pass rush pressure and less seperation in their passing tagets. Again, I'm not saying Young can't do it, but I have my doubts.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The better question to me would be "Why haven't other teams who have run this offense had this kind of success, both running and passing, and why don't more teams run it?"

I'm not sure you want to know the answer there.Because in my opinion, the clear cut answer is that Young's athletic ability was the difference.

More specifically that his athletic ability was far superior than that of the defenders trying to stop him. There was a huge gap in athletic ability.

A gap that will become drastically smaller at the next level.

J

 

[the hairy scotsman]

What I wonder about is his abilty to make reads in the NFL.... identifying blitzes, playing against good 3-4 D's, being able to read man coverages to take advantage of mismatches, checking down his recievers....

Do you not think the thousands of reps under center will be performed against a live NFL defense? These are things I, and I'm assuming Jaws, too, was talking about. I wasn't just talking about footwork. He's not just gonna show up to practice and work on his 3, 5, and 7 step drops.

his first Wondelic score that gives me reason to pause.

Can a person that scores a 7 on his first attempt at a simple Wonderlic test absorb and execute an NFL playbook?

I dunno. You tell me. After all, you scored a 7 on the Wonderlich also. Hey, like I said before, my buddy said so, so I have as much confirmation on that as you do on Young's "7". Ludicrous, right?

they had recievers who could get seperation

The Texas receivers, with the exception of freshman 2nd teamer Quan Cosby, were the same group that in '04 were considered by almost everyone to be the weakness of the entire team. There are two reasons they stepped up and got lots of separation this year. (1) During the offseason, Vince Young threw down the gauntlet and worked endlessly with the wrs and tes to develop much-needed timing and get the wrs to learn their assignments, as busted routes had plagued them all through '04. (2) Not one of those guys is an all-world guy with blazing speed or incredible, consistent hands. Sweed is big and strong, but not that fast and drops a few. Pittman is reliable, and has decent speed. Thomas is fantastic at TE...But much of the separation came from teams keying on and loading up for Young. This is why I'm not making any big predictions about our O for this year. I think teams will load up to stop the run and force us to throw with our freshman qbs who are only above avg running threats. While I think the D will be even better and the run game should be outstanding, the key element is gone. We'll see.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

The better question to me would be "Why haven't other teams who have run this offense had this kind of success, both running and passing, and why don't more teams run it?"

I'm not sure you want to know the answer there.Because in my opinion, the clear cut answer is that Young's athletic ability was the difference.

More specifically that his athletic ability was far superior than that of the defenders trying to stop him. There was a huge gap in athletic ability.

A gap that will become drastically smaller at the next level.

J

So should Texas have run more plays under center for Young? They still scored 48% of the TDs under his watch from under center. Regardless of how they got there, passing or running...what matters more than scoring?Actually, that's the exact answer I was looking for. It just shows that Young was the key. Many people think this is a new offense. No, it just fully utilizes both Young's running and passing skills.

If you have a qb who can pass lights out, you don't make him an option qb. If you have a guy who can only run, you don't make him a pure dropback guy. If you have a guy who can do one better than maybe anyone ever and do the other pretty well, then you find a way to feature both of those talents.

That's what Texas did.

 

[Rovers]

I have no clue what point you are trying to make here....

I dunno. You tell me. After all, you scored a 7 on the Wonderlich also. Hey, like I said before, my buddy said so, so I have as much confirmation on that as you do on Young's "7". Ludicrous, right?

You have deep man love for Young.... that's fine. You seem convinced he's going to be a near HoF'er, from what I've read. So, don't worry, be HAPPY! Just please, God, don't let the Jets draft Young! :(

 

[SOONERS]

Joe points out that things will change drastically for VY mainly due to the level of competition, & I totally agree.

Scotsman, you're absolutely right about the way UT used him. I think they used him in the best way you possibly could. Why change that? No reason to & it worked out for them.

I feel, like most, it will come down to his ability to read/react to Nfl defenses if he will is successful or not. People see his athletic ability & think it automatically equals success, but it doesn't.

If the name Micheal Bishop doesn't ring a bell to folks, it should. He was as athletic as VY & who remembers him outside of b12 followers. Obviously, his name does not get mentioned in NFL circles.

 

[cstu]

Joe points out that things will change drastically for VY mainly due to the level of competition, & I totally agree.

Scotsman, you're absolutely right about the way UT used him. I think they used him in the best way you possibly could. Why change that? No reason to & it worked out for them.

I feel, like most, it will come down to his ability to read/react to Nfl defenses if he will is successful or not. People see his athletic ability & think it automatically equals success, but it doesn't.

If the name Micheal Bishop doesn't ring a bell to folks, it should. He was as athletic as VY & who remembers him outside of b12 followers. Obviously, his name does not get mentioned in NFL circles.

Is this the part where I get to hear people say that Bishop was nowhere close to as good as Young?http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/stat/apr99/qb-bishop.asp

 

[the hairy scotsman]

I have no clue what point you are trying to make here....

I dunno. You tell me. After all, you scored a 7 on the Wonderlich also. Hey, like I said before, my buddy said so, so I have as much confirmation on that as you do on Young's "7". Ludicrous, right?

You have deep man love for Young.... that's fine. You seem convinced he's going to be a near HoF'er, from what I've read. So, don't worry, be HAPPY!    Just please, God, don't let the Jets draft Young!  :(

Exactly. You saying I scored a 7 on the Wonderlich, or me saying you scored the same carries just as much weight as you saying Vince Young scored a 7 on the test... because you can't back it up. Yet you spout it off as fact.

Ludicrous.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Joe points out that things will change drastically for VY mainly due to the level of competition, & I totally agree.

Scotsman, you're absolutely right about the way UT used him.  I think they used him in the best way you possibly could. Why change that? No reason to & it worked out for them.

I feel, like most, it will come down to his ability to read/react to Nfl defenses if he will is successful or not. People see his athletic ability & think it automatically equals success, but it doesn't. 

If the name Micheal Bishop doesn't ring a bell to folks, it should.  He was as athletic as VY & who remembers him outside of b12 followers.  Obviously, his name does not get mentioned in NFL circles.

Is this the part where I get to hear people say that Bishop was nowhere close to as good as Young?http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/stat/apr99/qb-bishop.asp

I'm not gonna rip Bishop, because I saw him play in person more than once and thought he was great. However, size and arm strength are two key advantages I believe Young holds over him. Bishop: 6'1" 228 (now, from Argonauts site)

Young: 6'5" 234

 

[Rovers]

I have no clue what point you are trying to make here....

I dunno. You tell me. After all, you scored a 7 on the Wonderlich also. Hey, like I said before, my buddy said so, so I have as much confirmation on that as you do on Young's "7". Ludicrous, right?

You have deep man love for Young.... that's fine. You seem convinced he's going to be a near HoF'er, from what I've read. So, don't worry, be HAPPY!    Just please, God, don't let the Jets draft Young!  :(

Exactly. You saying I scored a 7 on the Wonderlich, or me saying you scored the same carries just as much weight as you saying Vince Young scored a 7 on the test... because you can't back it up. Yet you spout it off as fact.

Ludicrous.

Oh, I see... you refuse to believe Young scored a 7 on the first test.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

please, God, don't let the Jets draft Young!

Hey, at least we have common ground there. I don't want him going to that p.o.s. either.

 

[Bevo]

The better question to me would be "Why haven't other teams who have run this offense had this kind of success, both running and passing, and why don't more teams run it?"

I'm not sure you want to know the answer there.Because in my opinion, the clear cut answer is that Young's athletic ability was the difference.

More specifically that his athletic ability was far superior than that of the defenders trying to stop him. There was a huge gap in athletic ability.

A gap that will become drastically smaller at the next level.

J

I think that is true to some extent. But another big factor is that Cedric left and no one true "banger" type of back stepped up and took his place. Had Cedric been back for another year there would have been quite a bit less shotgun, IMO.

 

[guderian]

The better question to me would be "Why haven't other teams who have run this offense had this kind of success, both running and passing, and why don't more teams run it?"

I'm not sure you want to know the answer there.Because in my opinion, the clear cut answer is that Young's athletic ability was the difference.

More specifically that his athletic ability was far superior than that of the defenders trying to stop him. There was a huge gap in athletic ability.

A gap that will become drastically smaller at the next level.

J

By athletic ability I am assuming you mean his ability to run because other athletic abilities like arm strength would translate to the NFL as much for Vince as any other college player. So how does the above explain the fact that he had the highest passing rating in the NCAA?Also VY was more of a one man show than the other top QBs coming out this year. He has athletic ability, but he was almost always facing a team that was set up to stop him.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

The better question to me would be "Why haven't other teams who have run this offense had this kind of success, both running and passing, and why don't more teams run it?"

I'm not sure you want to know the answer there.Because in my opinion, the clear cut answer is that Young's athletic ability was the difference.

More specifically that his athletic ability was far superior than that of the defenders trying to stop him. There was a huge gap in athletic ability.

A gap that will become drastically smaller at the next level.

J

By athletic ability I am assuming you mean his ability to run because other athletic abilities like arm strength would translate to the NFL as much for Vince as any other college player. So how does the above explain the fact that he had the highest passing rating in the NCAA?Also VY was more of a one man show than the other top QBs coming out this year. He has athletic ability, but he was almost always facing a team that was set up to stop him.

Yep. "Athletic" is quite a misused, bastardized word these days, wouldn't you say?

 

[Rovers]

please, God, don't let the Jets draft Young!

Hey, at least we have common ground there. I don't want him going to that p.o.s. either.

Why do all Texans hate NY? Is it a redneck/brokeback thing?

 

[the hairy scotsman]

please, God, don't let the Jets draft Young!

Hey, at least we have common ground there. I don't want him going to that p.o.s. either.

Why do all Texans hate NY? Is it a redneck/brokeback thing?

Wow. What a hateful thing to say.I don't hate NY. I love NY. I was there just this summer.

The Jets are just a crappy organization, and are one of the teams I wouldn't want anyone I like to end up working for. It has nothing to do with New York, but if it did, it would probably be due to idiotic comments like

Why do all Texans hate NY? Is it a redneck/brokeback thing?

 

[Chitown Mole]

Hi hairy,

What's your opinion on why they moved "Vince" to the shotgun exclusively this year?

J

Yeah, I get the Vince reference , but I'm also assuming you're joking when you say they moved Vince to the shotgun exclusively, right?Thta's the whole point of this post (which I'm sure you're aware I moved from the other thread...thought I'd catch it before anyone quoted it, but you're quick).

Not exclusively but why so much?J

probably because they averaged 50 points a game when they did it. Most teams don't throw the ball when leading 42-12

 

[Bojang0301]

I think that Vince will need an offense tailored to his skills and not a "system''. That should be the main point of either side of this argument.

 

[Irish]

Joe points out that things will change drastically for VY mainly due to the level of competition, & I totally agree.

Scotsman, you're absolutely right about the way UT used him. I think they used him in the best way you possibly could. Why change that? No reason to & it worked out for them.

I feel, like most, it will come down to his ability to read/react to Nfl defenses if he will is successful or not. People see his athletic ability & think it automatically equals success, but it doesn't.

If the name Micheal Bishop doesn't ring a bell to folks, it should. He was as athletic as VY & who remembers him outside of b12 followers. Obviously, his name does not get mentioned in NFL circles.

Is this the part where I get to hear people say that Bishop was nowhere close to as good as Young?http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/stat/apr99/qb-bishop.asp

It doesn't even need to be said.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Completion %

Bishop: 50.1

Young: 61.8

YPC:

Bishop: 3.9

Young: 6.8

Jason, regarding the way Texas coaches wanted to feature both Young's talent passing and running, check this out....in just 2 seasons, Vince Young compiled enough yards to end up 1st on Texas' career Total Offense list by over 1100 yards over 2nd place....5th on the career passing yards list, and 5th in career rushing yards for any position...for perspective, rb Ricky Williams is #1, rb Earl Campbell is #3, rb Roosevelt Leaks is behind at #6, and rb Eric Metcalf comes in at #9.