Was this date rape? (1 Viewer)

[Bucky86]

48.8% of college women who were victims of attacks that met the studys definition of rape did not consider what happened to them rape. Bureau of Justice Stats. Sexual Victimization of Collegiate Women 2000, US DOJ.

The study's definition of rape would seem to be somewhat important to include, don't you think?

On my phone. Feel free to use the googlesWas wondering the same

Seems stats were done by http://www.nyscasa.org/

 

[Bucky86]

http://nyscasa.org/sites/default/files/policy/DefinitionOfRape.pdf

 

[Papa Georgio]

Alright I am going to attempt to leave this alone. I have no problem having a conversation with people who don't share my POV, perhaps I am too emotionally invested in this. I still take exception to some of the things that were said here this evening. I can't win this fight at this point.

My anger was never about getting anyone to agree with me. If you look you will see that most of my anger came from defending someone who I know is deeply hurt by the events of that night and I couldn't stand people not being a bit more respectful. I have already said I had the benefit of hearing and seeing her tell the story.

It is however beyond my comprehension that anyone could think a girl being shoved down and pinned during sex is completely fine because she - let herself be carried, let him undress her, etc.

If you wish to focus on my sentence structure when in many of my posts I was using a phone and just trying to get a quick reply then by all means feel free to do so.

 

[Aerial Assault]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

In the OP you intimated that you recently became friends with this person.

No - - the original post stated that "I recently had a girl I have become friends with tell me about something that happened to her about 5 years ago."

You can read that in a number of ways, but "recently became friends with this person" isn't really one of them.

Not sure why there's any huge need to try to poke holes in PG's story.

I disagree. He said "I recently had a girl I have become friends with ..."

The "I have become friends" with suggest exactly that...that it is a new friendship. Otherwise, it should read something along the lines of:

"I recently had a girl I am friends with" or "A friend of mine told me recently about something that happened to her..."

I am not really trying to poke holes in PG's story. I am trying to understand his story and the facts.

I agree that the wording in the OP is a little ambiguous, but your attack on his later characterization wasn't entirely justified. I assumed that he knew the girl for a while, possibly extending back into a time when she was a kid (pre-adolescence), but he later became friends with her. If he's older than she is and, for example, a family friend or something similar, it's not that hard to imagine.

I understand that you're just trying to get the story straight for yourself.

I think this is an extremely difficult question, a very good example of perhaps one of the toughest, most divisive day-to-day social scenarios that you run across in this day and age. It does seem that the young lady put herself in a certain position and then regretted the sex without really labeling it rape. On the other hand, the guy's failure to pick up on what presumably should have been loud and clear "no" signals - albeit unverbalized - and his level of aggressiveness are a little disturbing.

 

[Otis]

It is however beyond my comprehension that anyone could think a girl being shoved down and pinned during sex is completely fine

I'm sure plenty of posters here have had lots of consensual sex in a way as you describe above. That doesn't make it rape. And that's why many of us struggle with your fact pattern. Sex is by definition a physical act. Even when consensual.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

In the OP you intimated that you recently became friends with this person.

No - - the original post stated that "I recently had a girl I have become friends with tell me about something that happened to her about 5 years ago."

You can read that in a number of ways, but "recently became friends with this person" isn't really one of them.

Not sure why there's any huge need to try to poke holes in PG's story.

I disagree. He said "I recently had a girl I have become friends with ..."

The "I have become friends" with suggest exactly that...that it is a new friendship. Otherwise, it should read something along the lines of:

"I recently had a girl I am friends with" or "A friend of mine told me recently about something that happened to her..."

I am not really trying to poke holes in PG's story. I am trying to understand his story and the facts.

I agree that the wording in the OP is a little ambiguous, but your attack on his later characterization wasn't entirely justified. I assumed that he knew the girl for a while, possibly extending back into a time when she was a kid (pre-adolescence), but he later became friends with her. If he's older than she is and, for example, a family friend or something similar, it's not that hard to imagine.

I understand that you're just trying to get the story straight for yourself.

I think this is an extremely difficult question, a very good example of perhaps one of the toughest, most divisive day-to-day social scenarios that you run across in this day and age. It does seem that the young lady put herself in a certain position and then regretted the sex without really labeling it rape. On the other hand, the guy's failure to pick up on what presumably should have been loud and clear "no" signals - albeit unverbalized - and his level of aggressiveness are a little disturbing.

Just to clear this up I stated she was a former player of mine that recently started working at the same school I am at.

 

[cowboyz1]

Absolutely, and the guy is a POS. For him not to acknowledge her body language and see she was not into it, makes him a sick fk. Personally, whats to point if she isn't getting pleasure out of it also. I just don't get that. What is the turn on when a woman not only is not into it but rejecting you. Some sick folks out there.

 

[Papa Georgio]

It is however beyond my comprehension that anyone could think a girl being shoved down and pinned during sex is completely fine

I'm sure plenty of posters here have had lots of consensual sex in a way as you describe above. That doesn't make it rape. And that's why many of us struggle with your fact pattern. Sex is by definition a physical act. Even when consensual.

Who hasn't had sex like this but I would imagine very few have had sex like this for the 1st time with someone. Does it even matter that her words were that I put my hands on his shoulders to stop him? Also since sex is a physical act then why are you so hung up on the need for verbal denial of it?

 

[dparker713]

48.8% of college women who were victims of attacks that met the studys definition of rape did not consider what happened to them rape. Bureau of Justice Stats. Sexual Victimization of Collegiate Women 2000, US DOJ.

The study's definition of rape would seem to be somewhat important to include, don't you think?

On my phone. Feel free to use the googlesWas wondering the same

Seems stats were done by http://www.nyscasa.org/

I tend to prefer not to do other people's research for them. And your below link was not the study that you quoted, therefore whatever definitions it has are entirely irrelevant.

 

[SIDA!]

Alright I am going to attempt to leave this alone. I have no problem having a conversation with people who don't share my POV, perhaps I am too emotionally invested in this. I still take exception to some of the things that were said here this evening. I can't win this fight at this point.

My anger was never about getting anyone to agree with me. If you look you will see that most of my anger came from defending someone who I know is deeply hurt by the events of that night and I couldn't stand people not being a bit more respectful. I have already said I had the benefit of hearing and seeing her tell the story.

It is however beyond my comprehension that anyone could think a girl being shoved down and pinned during sex is completely fine because she - let herself be carried, let him undress her, etc.

If you wish to focus on my sentence structure when in many of my posts I was using a phone and just trying to get a quick reply then by all means feel free to do so.

Serious question, PG. Do you ever engage in rough, hard ####### with a woman or are you the soft, romantic type every time. I am not asking this to be a jerk or put you down or anything like that. I have no idea how old you are or what your sexual experiences are.

But, the way you describe the situation is almost as if you really have no idea that there are different types of sex. Again, not trying to be cute or witty or anything like that. I only understand the situation based on how you described it...which I feel is rather ambiguous and vague. It doesn't really sound to me like he was all that forceful/violent or that she was that overt in expressing her non-consent in the OP as you are suggesting throughout the thread.

I don't think there is any person in here who would defend the guy had she said "No" or had you accurately conveyed the degree to which she physically resisted these advances. I think every guy has that fear that a woman is going to accuse him of sexual assault or rape and it will be he said she said. And there are countless high profile incidents where men have been victimized by women in this way and many more men who have had their reputation tarnished by women who would rather accuse or intimate rape than take responsibility for their own actions.

I am sorry that you feel that I or anyone else has disrespected this person you care about. I don't have a personal attachment or connection to any party in this, but probably naturally identify with the male perspective/fear.

 

[SIDA!]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

In the OP you intimated that you recently became friends with this person.

No - - the original post stated that "I recently had a girl I have become friends with tell me about something that happened to her about 5 years ago."

You can read that in a number of ways, but "recently became friends with this person" isn't really one of them.

Not sure why there's any huge need to try to poke holes in PG's story.

I disagree. He said "I recently had a girl I have become friends with ..."

The "I have become friends" with suggest exactly that...that it is a new friendship. Otherwise, it should read something along the lines of:

"I recently had a girl I am friends with" or "A friend of mine told me recently about something that happened to her..."

I am not really trying to poke holes in PG's story. I am trying to understand his story and the facts.

I agree that the wording in the OP is a little ambiguous, but your attack on his later characterization wasn't entirely justified. I assumed that he knew the girl for a while, possibly extending back into a time when she was a kid (pre-adolescence), but he later became friends with her. If he's older than she is and, for example, a family friend or something similar, it's not that hard to imagine.

I understand that you're just trying to get the story straight for yourself.

I think this is an extremely difficult question, a very good example of perhaps one of the toughest, most divisive day-to-day social scenarios that you run across in this day and age. It does seem that the young lady put herself in a certain position and then regretted the sex without really labeling it rape. On the other hand, the guy's failure to pick up on what presumably should have been loud and clear "no" signals - albeit unverbalized - and his level of aggressiveness are a little disturbing.

Entirely fair and valid points. Great post worthy of more than a "like".

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

It's unfortunate this has gotten off track into question motivations and the story of the OP. I thought the more interesting discussion was just around consent taking the situation described as a hypothetical. Obviously no one was there and we can't interview the people who were to get more information. Reading in one way or the other is pointless.

 

[dparker713]

It's unfortunate this has gotten off track into question motivations and the story of the OP. I thought the more interesting discussion was just around consent taking the situation described as a hypothetical. Obviously no one was there and we can't interview the people who were to get more information. Reading in one way or the other is pointless.

Everyone has been reading into the situation from the beginning because the details are spare.

 

[SIDA!]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

In the OP you intimated that you recently became friends with this person.

No - - the original post stated that "I recently had a girl I have become friends with tell me about something that happened to her about 5 years ago."

You can read that in a number of ways, but "recently became friends with this person" isn't really one of them.

Not sure why there's any huge need to try to poke holes in PG's story.

I disagree. He said "I recently had a girl I have become friends with ..."

The "I have become friends" with suggest exactly that...that it is a new friendship. Otherwise, it should read something along the lines of:

"I recently had a girl I am friends with" or "A friend of mine told me recently about something that happened to her..."

I am not really trying to poke holes in PG's story. I am trying to understand his story and the facts.

I agree that the wording in the OP is a little ambiguous, but your attack on his later characterization wasn't entirely justified. I assumed that he knew the girl for a while, possibly extending back into a time when she was a kid (pre-adolescence), but he later became friends with her. If he's older than she is and, for example, a family friend or something similar, it's not that hard to imagine.

I understand that you're just trying to get the story straight for yourself.

I think this is an extremely difficult question, a very good example of perhaps one of the toughest, most divisive day-to-day social scenarios that you run across in this day and age. It does seem that the young lady put herself in a certain position and then regretted the sex without really labeling it rape. On the other hand, the guy's failure to pick up on what presumably should have been loud and clear "no" signals - albeit unverbalized - and his level of aggressiveness are a little disturbing.

Just to clear this up I stated she was a former player of mine that recently started working at the same school I am at.

Fair enough, PG. I apologize if you feel I have disrespected this person that you care about so deeply.

 

[Bucky86]

Just did a little reading. A woman can also withdraw her consent. So her being carried up to the room doesn't necessarily allow him to continue, especially if she pushed him away from her. That is where her consent would be considered withdrawn.

 

[No. 16]

I'd expect some of these responses from a message board on Cosmo or some other chick website, but here?

The guys who are flat out saying this situation is rape must be virgins or have limited experience with women. What is described in the OP is what most women do when you take them home for the first time to bang them. Women don't want to seem like slooots, so they have to feign some resistance. The guy was nice enough to ask to go to the bedroom. Instead of saying a firm, "No, I'll be leaving," [you have to be pretty naive not to know where this is going] she said, "I don't think this is a good idea right now." Any guy with balls and experience with women would toss that line aside and keep escalating the situation. It works, her panties get moist, and they start undressing.

If I had gotten to where the guy is now and she has yet to say, "No" then it's pretty hard to fault him. The pushing and pinning? Have you guys been ####### cardboard boxes? That's part of sex.

Now I'm not disregarding her feelings... I'm sure she probably regretted it and does feel terrible, but that doesn't make him a rapist. He still could be if the pushing and pinning was more of a struggle than the OP originally describes (even without the verbal, "NO"), but from what was originally presented I can't call the guy a rapist. He's just a guy who knows the game and is taking charge. He can't help the fact that she changed her feelings (isn't that what women do?).

 

[Bucky86]

I'd expect some of these responses from a message board on Cosmo or some other chick website, but here?

The guys who are flat out saying this situation is rape must be virgins or have limited experience with women. What is described in the OP is what most women do when you take them home for the first time to bang them. Women don't want to seem like slooots, so they have to feign some resistance. The guy was nice enough to ask to go to the bedroom. Instead of saying a firm, "No, I'll be leaving," [you have to be pretty naive not to know where this is going] she said, "I don't think this is a good idea right now." Any guy with balls and experience with women would toss that line aside and keep escalating the situation. It works, her panties get moist, and they start undressing.

If I had gotten to where the guy is now and she has yet to say, "No" then it's pretty hard to fault him. The pushing and pinning? Have you guys been ####### cardboard boxes? That's part of sex.

Now I'm not disregarding her feelings... I'm sure she probably regretted it and does feel terrible, but that doesn't make him a rapist. He still could be if the pushing and pinning was more of a struggle than the OP originally describes (even without the verbal, "NO"), but from what was originally presented I can't call the guy a rapist. He's just a guy who knows the game and is taking charge. He can't help the fact that she changed her feelings (isn't that what women do?).

I'm out.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

In the OP you intimated that you recently became friends with this person.

No - - the original post stated that "I recently had a girl I have become friends with tell me about something that happened to her about 5 years ago."

You can read that in a number of ways, but "recently became friends with this person" isn't really one of them.

Not sure why there's any huge need to try to poke holes in PG's story.

I disagree. He said "I recently had a girl I have become friends with ..."

The "I have become friends" with suggest exactly that...that it is a new friendship. Otherwise, it should read something along the lines of:

"I recently had a girl I am friends with" or "A friend of mine told me recently about something that happened to her..."

I am not really trying to poke holes in PG's story. I am trying to understand his story and the facts.

I agree that the wording in the OP is a little ambiguous, but your attack on his later characterization wasn't entirely justified. I assumed that he knew the girl for a while, possibly extending back into a time when she was a kid (pre-adolescence), but he later became friends with her. If he's older than she is and, for example, a family friend or something similar, it's not that hard to imagine.

I understand that you're just trying to get the story straight for yourself.

I think this is an extremely difficult question, a very good example of perhaps one of the toughest, most divisive day-to-day social scenarios that you run across in this day and age. It does seem that the young lady put herself in a certain position and then regretted the sex without really labeling it rape. On the other hand, the guy's failure to pick up on what presumably should have been loud and clear "no" signals - albeit unverbalized - and his level of aggressiveness are a little disturbing.

Probably by far the best description and shows that both sides could possible be right.

 

[dparker713]

Just did a little reading. A woman can also withdraw her consent. So her being carried up to the room doesn't necessarily allow him to continue, especially if she pushed him away from her. That is where her consent would be considered withdrawn.

"She puts her hands on his chest to push him away"

That doesn't even necessarily mean she pushed him at all. Just that she placed her hands on his chest. From that you're concluding that she not only revoked consent but that he should have known she revoked consent?

 

[SIDA!]

Just did a little reading. A woman can also withdraw her consent. So her being carried up to the room doesn't necessarily allow him to continue, especially if she pushed him away from her. That is where her consent would be considered withdrawn.

There isn't a person in this thread arguing that a woman can't withdraw consent. As far as I am concerned, a woman could have reached orgasm after 15 minutes of sex and tell me to stop right as I am getting ready to cum. If I don't stop, it is rape.

The issue for many of us isn't that she was past the point of no return and unable to withdraw consent. The issue is that when you engage in sex with an assertive/dominant male and it is conveyed that you were actually turned on by their physical assertiveness and allow yourself to be undressed on a bed, then if you choose to remain silent and not withdraw your consent verbally, then the manner in which you choose to withdraw consent must be unambiguous. I am of the opinion that there is ambiguity in the supposed physical effort/actions on her part to withdraw consent.

 

[Slapdash]

I'd expect some of these responses from a message board on Cosmo or some other chick website, but here?

The guys who are flat out saying this situation is rape must be virgins or have limited experience with women. What is described in the OP is what most women do when you take them home for the first time to bang them. Women don't want to seem like slooots, so they have to feign some resistance. The guy was nice enough to ask to go to the bedroom. Instead of saying a firm, "No, I'll be leaving," [you have to be pretty naive not to know where this is going] she said, "I don't think this is a good idea right now." Any guy with balls and experience with women would toss that line aside and keep escalating the situation. It works, her panties get moist, and they start undressing.

If I had gotten to where the guy is now and she has yet to say, "No" then it's pretty hard to fault him. The pushing and pinning? Have you guys been ####### cardboard boxes? That's part of sex.

Now I'm not disregarding her feelings... I'm sure she probably regretted it and does feel terrible, but that doesn't make him a rapist. He still could be if the pushing and pinning was more of a struggle than the OP originally describes (even without the verbal, "NO"), but from what was originally presented I can't call the guy a rapist. He's just a guy who knows the game and is taking charge. He can't help the fact that she changed her feelings (isn't that what women do?).

I'm out.

wow

 

[SIDA!]

I'd expect some of these responses from a message board on Cosmo or some other chick website, but here?

The guys who are flat out saying this situation is rape must be virgins or have limited experience with women. What is described in the OP is what most women do when you take them home for the first time to bang them. Women don't want to seem like slooots, so they have to feign some resistance. The guy was nice enough to ask to go to the bedroom. Instead of saying a firm, "No, I'll be leaving," [you have to be pretty naive not to know where this is going] she said, "I don't think this is a good idea right now." Any guy with balls and experience with women would toss that line aside and keep escalating the situation. It works, her panties get moist, and they start undressing.

If I had gotten to where the guy is now and she has yet to say, "No" then it's pretty hard to fault him. The pushing and pinning? Have you guys been ####### cardboard boxes? That's part of sex.

Now I'm not disregarding her feelings... I'm sure she probably regretted it and does feel terrible, but that doesn't make him a rapist. He still could be if the pushing and pinning was more of a struggle than the OP originally describes (even without the verbal, "NO"), but from what was originally presented I can't call the guy a rapist. He's just a guy who knows the game and is taking charge. He can't help the fact that she changed her feelings (isn't that what women do?).

No. 16

You are talking to a bunch of guys who apparently stop, get up and leave when a woman they are trying to finger bang squeezes her thighs or pushes your hand away.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

 

[MC Gas Money]

All in all it doesnt really matter if a guy truly rapes a woman or not. A man be convicted solely on her word. Safest thing is to just stay away from them all together because they are dangerous.

 

[Otis]

Just did a little reading. A woman can also withdraw her consent. So her being carried up to the room doesn't necessarily allow him to continue, especially if she pushed him away from her. That is where her consent would be considered withdrawn.

We all agree a woman can withdraw her consent, Matlock. The question is whether physical contact during sex would be perceived as a withdrawing of consent.

 

[Bucky86]

Just did a little reading. A woman can also withdraw her consent. So her being carried up to the room doesn't necessarily allow him to continue, especially if she pushed him away from her. That is where her consent would be considered withdrawn.

We all agree a woman can withdraw her consent, Matlock. The question is whether physical contact during sex would be perceived as a withdrawing of consent.

This was before sex, but as described it sounds like she was pushing him away and he had to pin her hands to continue towards sex.

 

[SIDA!]

Just did a little reading. A woman can also withdraw her consent. So her being carried up to the room doesn't necessarily allow him to continue, especially if she pushed him away from her. That is where her consent would be considered withdrawn.

We all agree a woman can withdraw her consent, Matlock. The question is whether physical contact during sex would be perceived as a withdrawing of consent.

This was before sex, but as described it sounds like she was pushing him away and he had to pin her hands to continue towards sex.

I believe the crux of this issue for many of us is that there is some ambiguity on this front.

 

[No. 16]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

 

[Slapdash]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

Perfect

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Just did a little reading. A woman can also withdraw her consent. So her being carried up to the room doesn't necessarily allow him to continue, especially if she pushed him away from her. That is where her consent would be considered withdrawn.

There isn't a person in this thread arguing that a woman can't withdraw consent. As far as I am concerned, a woman could have reached orgasm after 15 minutes of sex and tell me to stop right as I am getting ready to cum. If I don't stop, it is rape.

The issue for many of us isn't that she was past the point of no return and unable to withdraw consent. The issue is that when you engage in sex with an assertive/dominant male and it is conveyed that you were actually turned on by their physical assertiveness and allow yourself to be undressed on a bed, then if you choose to remain silent and not withdraw your consent verbally, then the manner in which you choose to withdraw consent must be unambiguous. I am of the opinion that there is ambiguity in the supposed physical effort/actions on her part to withdraw consent.

Consent is big deal in BDSM culture for obvious reasons related to what you're talking about here. It's why people who engage in those activities together usually make it really clear not only what boundaries are going in but what the safe words or gestures are to cut it off. The problem here IMO from the guys perspective is that he wouldn't have known what her signals would be. He could assume that she would start screaming no if she didn't like it, but not all women respond that way.

If you just go by what was outlined in the OP, if this girl had driven straight to the Police and reported it as an assault he could potentially have been in major trouble. I'd be pretty pissed if my son ever put himself in that situation.

 

[Bucky86]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

 

[fatness]

I'm a little surprised the guys here with daughters would have no problem with this being their kid.

Hopefully our kids wouldn't do this. I'd also hate to raise a girl who presented as in the fact pattern attached and who would then go and try to ruin some young man's life as a result.

When you tell them how you resisted unwanted sex back when you had a virginia and boobs, they'll listen.

 

[NCCommish]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

 

[SIDA!]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.

Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

 

[Bucky86]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

it was a joke off of 16's infamous thread.

 

[No. 16]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

Judging from your replies in this thread, I'm pretty sure I'm enjoying sex way more than you.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.

Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

 

[chauncey]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

 

[Bucky86]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

Judging from your replies in this thread, I'm pretty sure I'm enjoying sex way more than you.

It's not all about you... Hopefully you learned that after your girl left you for the PT instructor.

 

[No. 16]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.

Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

We'll all just have to agree to disagree.

ETA: If you're talk about what she said to the "rapist".

 

[chauncey]

Hey mods I think the personal trainer hijacked #16's account.

 

[No. 16]

Hey mods I think the personal trainer hijacked #16's account.

I can't hate the player, can't fault his game. I learned a lot from that experience. No. 16 today is closer to the PT at that time then to No. 16.

 

[Bucky86]

Hey mods I think the personal trainer hijacked #16's account.

I can't hate the player, can't fault his game. I learned a lot from that experience. No. 16 today is closer to the PT at that time then to No. 16.

we need an update, Rico

 

[chauncey]

Hey mods I think the personal trainer hijacked #16's account.

I can't hate the player, can't fault his game. I learned a lot from that experience. No. 16 today is closer to the PT at that time then to No. 16.

 

[FUBAR]

She said the sex was very rough and felt wrong.

This is the most telling line in the OP. I believe it suggests she regretted it, didn't enjoy it, wish she hadn't done it perhaps, but it wasn't rape.

You don't describe rape as "it felt wrong" any more than you describe being shot in the gut as "I didn't really like it." But "it felt wrong" sounds very much like the way a girl might describe the scenario after the fact if she consented and later regretted it.

Just my take.

What's your experience in this field?

A lot of your responses are in line with normal logical reactions which have been beat into our heads by psychologists as not applying to rape. None of us know how we'd react in this situation until we're there and the experts have consistently told us that there is not one "typical" reaction.

You also bring up quite a few good points that we would look into during the investigation.

 

[SIDA!]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.

Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

I respect your viewpoint, but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Choosing to not open your mouth and say "No" or "Stop" does not equal not having an opportunity. I just don't buy the fact that in this instance she wasn't in an environment where she felt safe saying, "No."

We are not talking about a child being sexually abused. We are not talking about a woman who is raped in an alley with a gun or knife held to her head or neck. We are talking about a woman who was familiar and knew the guy reasonably well. They had had numerous interactions. There is nothing in the OP to suggest that were she to say "No" that she would be harmed in some way. I just don't buy that argument. I just have an issue with painting someone as being a rapist because a grown adult is incapable of saying, "No".

If the situation was such that she didn't say, "No", but she slapped, kicked or forcefully pushed the guy away then that is another story. But the original post doesn't even necessarily read that she pushed the guy away. It reads that she was naked on bed, raised up as if she were going to sit up, and he somewhat forcefully pushed her down. I read that as in, the guy has been dominant, taken control of the situation, picked her up and took her to bed, undressed her (and this is all clearly consensual by her own admission up to this point).

She raises up or sits up as in a manner that might be interpreted as her wanting the sex to be more equal in the dominance/submissive continuum. Maybe he interpreted her as trying to be more assertive or her wanting to be on top. I have no idea. But, it could be reasonably interpreted that he wanted to be on top and dictating the pace/tempo of the encounter. We then read that she placed her hands on his chest as if to push away, but it isn't clear that she actually pushed away and if she did, to what degree of force. Like I said earlier, I would imagine that every man has had his hand pushed away while trying to finger bang a girl. And NONE of us stopped trying after the first brush off or closed thigh.

If the situation was that she definitively pushed away in a manner that could reasonably be conveyed that she was not into it and wanted to stop then okay.

However, you put yourself in a situation where you are naked on a bed in a dude's house, I really don't think it is too much to ask for a grown adult to verbally say "No" given the context of the situation. And I am not going to put a man in jail and take his freedom if I am on a jury.

 

[Otis]

She said the sex was very rough and felt wrong.

This is the most telling line in the OP. I believe it suggests she regretted it, didn't enjoy it, wish she hadn't done it perhaps, but it wasn't rape.

You don't describe rape as "it felt wrong" any more than you describe being shot in the gut as "I didn't really like it." But "it felt wrong" sounds very much like the way a girl might describe the scenario after the fact if she consented and later regretted it.

Just my take.

What's your experience in this field? A lot of your responses are in line with normal logical reactions which have been beat into our heads by psychologists as not applying to rape. None of us know how we'd react in this situation until we're there and the experts have consistently told us that there is not one "typical" reaction.

You also bring up quite a few good points that we would look into during the investigation.

I'm no specialist. My only background here is in logic, reason, and nearly 40 years of dealing with women, all different types.

 

[Otis]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

 

[FUBAR]

She said the sex was very rough and felt wrong.

This is the most telling line in the OP. I believe it suggests she regretted it, didn't enjoy it, wish she hadn't done it perhaps, but it wasn't rape.

You don't describe rape as "it felt wrong" any more than you describe being shot in the gut as "I didn't really like it." But "it felt wrong" sounds very much like the way a girl might describe the scenario after the fact if she consented and later regretted it.

Just my take.

What's your experience in this field?A lot of your responses are in line with normal logical reactions which have been beat into our heads by psychologists as not applying to rape. None of us know how we'd react in this situation until we're there and the experts have consistently told us that there is not one "typical" reaction.

You also bring up quite a few good points that we would look into during the investigation.

I'm no specialist. My only background here is in logic, reason, and nearly 40 years of dealing with women, all different types.

Then you see the disconnect.

 

[comfortably numb]

We have gotten way off track.

PG as you know the rest of the board will not be in agreement on rape/not rape but I am confident the rest of the board is all in agreement that you should in no way be trying to contact this guy...unless you want to potentially do something to ruin your life