Was this date rape? (1 Viewer)

[Otis]

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Really weird to post a thread like this, ask for opinions and discussion, and then when you don't like what you hear, storm out and ask for the thread to be locked. You're clearly uber invested in this woman.

Stop hunting the guy on the internet. It's in her past and not your business.

And stop thinking about it. It clearly upsets you.

 

[proninja]

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

You see no way that he could have been confused?

Why'd you posit this as a question? Seems like your mind is pretty well made up.

 

[dparker713]

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Actually, this is the first time you've described the event in this manner.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I feel pretty confident nothing about this was a turn on to her once she put her hands on his shoulders and he pinned her. Not sure why her liking him carrying her to the room is a factor. She was also turned on by the kissing on the couch. She still has every right to stop him at any point regardless of what has taken place prior.

What has taken place prior is of course relevant.

Yes, of course she can at any time change her mind. They can enjoy making out and if she doesn't consent to go further and he physically forces it on her, that's rape. She can change course at any time.

But what happens earlier is relevant, at least to the question of whether he had any idea that she apparently changed her mind. They're getting hot and heavy on the couch. She claims that she was turned on by him being forceful and picking her up and carrying her to the bedroom. All of that is relevant to this thing from the guy's perspective. She's really into it, they're getting physical, it's getting hot and heavy, he picks her up to go to his room, and she seems to love it. They get into the bed. At some point everyone's clothes have presumably come off (I don't think I noticed this detail in your story). They're getting physical. She's not fighting it off, or saying no. She put her hands on his chest or shoulders. That's the universal sign for "don't rape me" under these circumstances?!

Sex is a physical act. It sounds as though she was consenting at least to heavy, physical action. She can't do that and then hit a point at which she's unsure in her head and decide "well, I'll say no in my mind, let's see where this goes," and suddenly this poor schlub is pegged a rapist?

I'm a dad of two girls, a brother of two younger sisters, and as firm a believer as anyone in protecting women and being a gentleman. But the threshold you're setting here is a bit ridiculous, unless there are some other facts we're missing. Just my opinion.

Best posting by Otis eva

I think the bolded is incorrect as I stated I am not sure if he was forceful in how he carried her or how long after he asked to take her to bedroom that he scooped her up. Her account was that it got rough once in the bedroom.

If someone is fearful of stopping you and you have pinned them I don't think ridiculous is the right word. I respect what you are trying to say but do not agree in the slightest that it is ridiculous to wonder if it was in fact rape.

She had no problem at all going to his house; making out with him; getting carried to his bedroom; and getting naked in his bed; but after all that, she's suddenly too shy or scared to even utter the word "no"? Did he pull out a machete, or did he -- shocking I know -- just try to have sex with the naked, apparently consenting adult woman in his bed?

You Otis I have always liked you and thought you to be very witty and intelligent. After this post I'm sorry but if from what I have posted you get to this point then I no longer feel that way. Not that it matters but what you are saying here honestly disgusts me.

I know she's your friend, but I have no idea what is disgusting there. Your (her) story is that after making out and getting naked with the guy, she instantly, for no apparent reasons:

1) Changes her mind about having sex.

2) Becomes immediately too scared to tell him as much.

Obviously, #1 is totally within her rights. Obviously. But if you're going to tell me that she passed up on using the universally accepted method of telling a guy "no" (i.e. telling him no) because she was too scared to, there has to be a reason for it. From what she's told you, there wasn't. She just did. It's very difficult to put that on him because it literally requires him to read her mind.

It is disgusting that he not only questions what I believe to be the victim he is defending the person who committed the wrong doing.

 

[Otis]

I'm a little surprised the guys here with daughters would have no problem with this being their kid.

Hopefully our kids wouldn't do this. I'd also hate to raise a girl who presented as in the fact pattern attached and who would then go and try to ruin some young man's life as a result.

Seriously, I would appreciate you not posting in here again. She's told 2 people in her life. You are way out of line.

You're a strange guy.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I feel pretty confident nothing about this was a turn on to her once she put her hands on his shoulders and he pinned her. Not sure why her liking him carrying her to the room is a factor. She was also turned on by the kissing on the couch. She still has every right to stop him at any point regardless of what has taken place prior.

What has taken place prior is of course relevant.

Yes, of course she can at any time change her mind. They can enjoy making out and if she doesn't consent to go further and he physically forces it on her, that's rape. She can change course at any time.

But what happens earlier is relevant, at least to the question of whether he had any idea that she apparently changed her mind. They're getting hot and heavy on the couch. She claims that she was turned on by him being forceful and picking her up and carrying her to the bedroom. All of that is relevant to this thing from the guy's perspective. She's really into it, they're getting physical, it's getting hot and heavy, he picks her up to go to his room, and she seems to love it. They get into the bed. At some point everyone's clothes have presumably come off (I don't think I noticed this detail in your story). They're getting physical. She's not fighting it off, or saying no. She put her hands on his chest or shoulders. That's the universal sign for "don't rape me" under these circumstances?!

Sex is a physical act. It sounds as though she was consenting at least to heavy, physical action. She can't do that and then hit a point at which she's unsure in her head and decide "well, I'll say no in my mind, let's see where this goes," and suddenly this poor schlub is pegged a rapist?

I'm a dad of two girls, a brother of two younger sisters, and as firm a believer as anyone in protecting women and being a gentleman. But the threshold you're setting here is a bit ridiculous, unless there are some other facts we're missing. Just my opinion.

Best posting by Otis eva

I think the bolded is incorrect as I stated I am not sure if he was forceful in how he carried her or how long after he asked to take her to bedroom that he scooped her up. Her account was that it got rough once in the bedroom.

If someone is fearful of stopping you and you have pinned them I don't think ridiculous is the right word. I respect what you are trying to say but do not agree in the slightest that it is ridiculous to wonder if it was in fact rape.

She had no problem at all going to his house; making out with him; getting carried to his bedroom; and getting naked in his bed; but after all that, she's suddenly too shy or scared to even utter the word "no"? Did he pull out a machete, or did he -- shocking I know -- just try to have sex with the naked, apparently consenting adult woman in his bed?

Would you want your daughter to be able to safely say no at that point?

Yes. There doesn't seem to be any reason that she couldn't have safely said no at this point either.

See a previous post from a rape crisis center. Some victims "freeze" when they feel threatened. There's no sense in debating this any longer. This isn't a courtroom. No ones life is going to be ruined if we get the decision wrong. I am just a little surprised with the quick defense of this guy based on what the OP's telling us. From what I can see, he seems to be legit. Now, she MAY not be, but once again...this isn't a courtroom and we don't need to get it right.

That's pulling yourself up by your shoelaces. If you want to consider her a "rape victim," that's fine (I do not) but she only became a "rape victim" because she decided to not inform the guy she'd just willfully and happily gotten into bed naked with that she didn't want him to have sex with her anymore. So it's ridiculous to say she "froze" because that's what rape victims do when at the time of her "freezing," she was not being raped. It's just non-sense.

She got naked with a guy, changed her mind, and, without any obvious reason, became instantly too terrified of him (again, the same guy she was just happy to sleep with moments before) to tell him. I'm not "defending" the guy, I just have no reason to think that he can read minds.

 

[SIDA!]

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Well, each time you type it out the context of what actually happened changes. The fact of the matter is that you have no idea what even happened and you have not really event constructed or presented an accurate timeline of what transpired.

But hey, let's do a search of the guy on the internet, hunt him down, and give the rapist a piece of your mind. Utterly ridiculous.

 

[Otis]

PG, you seem like a decent fellow. How old are you? I'm guessing 21ish?

 

[Slapdash]

Here is something that also stands out the more I think about it.

In both situations that I think show this guys character he reveals that he did understand what he was doing.

1) In the bedroom she pushes him away and struggles to hold him away, he forces her down and keeps her pinned, and continues the act.

2) In public he attempts to basically do the same thing (as in force her to do something she doesn't want), but this time when she resists he stops. Why...because they are in public and he knows what he is doing is wrong.

That is a significantly different description than you provided in the OP.

Not really

 

[PatsWillWin]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I feel pretty confident nothing about this was a turn on to her once she put her hands on his shoulders and he pinned her. Not sure why her liking him carrying her to the room is a factor. She was also turned on by the kissing on the couch. She still has every right to stop him at any point regardless of what has taken place prior.

What has taken place prior is of course relevant.

Yes, of course she can at any time change her mind. They can enjoy making out and if she doesn't consent to go further and he physically forces it on her, that's rape. She can change course at any time.

But what happens earlier is relevant, at least to the question of whether he had any idea that she apparently changed her mind. They're getting hot and heavy on the couch. She claims that she was turned on by him being forceful and picking her up and carrying her to the bedroom. All of that is relevant to this thing from the guy's perspective. She's really into it, they're getting physical, it's getting hot and heavy, he picks her up to go to his room, and she seems to love it. They get into the bed. At some point everyone's clothes have presumably come off (I don't think I noticed this detail in your story). They're getting physical. She's not fighting it off, or saying no. She put her hands on his chest or shoulders. That's the universal sign for "don't rape me" under these circumstances?!

Sex is a physical act. It sounds as though she was consenting at least to heavy, physical action. She can't do that and then hit a point at which she's unsure in her head and decide "well, I'll say no in my mind, let's see where this goes," and suddenly this poor schlub is pegged a rapist?

I'm a dad of two girls, a brother of two younger sisters, and as firm a believer as anyone in protecting women and being a gentleman. But the threshold you're setting here is a bit ridiculous, unless there are some other facts we're missing. Just my opinion.

Best posting by Otis eva

I think the bolded is incorrect as I stated I am not sure if he was forceful in how he carried her or how long after he asked to take her to bedroom that he scooped her up. Her account was that it got rough once in the bedroom.

If someone is fearful of stopping you and you have pinned them I don't think ridiculous is the right word. I respect what you are trying to say but do not agree in the slightest that it is ridiculous to wonder if it was in fact rape.

She had no problem at all going to his house; making out with him; getting carried to his bedroom; and getting naked in his bed; but after all that, she's suddenly too shy or scared to even utter the word "no"? Did he pull out a machete, or did he -- shocking I know -- just try to have sex with the naked, apparently consenting adult woman in his bed?

You Otis I have always liked you and thought you to be very witty and intelligent. After this post I'm sorry but if from what I have posted you get to this point then I no longer feel that way. Not that it matters but what you are saying here honestly disgusts me.

I know she's your friend, but I have no idea what is disgusting there. Your (her) story is that after making out and getting naked with the guy, she instantly, for no apparent reasons:

1) Changes her mind about having sex.

2) Becomes immediately too scared to tell him as much.

Obviously, #1 is totally within her rights. Obviously. But if you're going to tell me that she passed up on using the universally accepted method of telling a guy "no" (i.e. telling him no) because she was too scared to, there has to be a reason for it. From what she's told you, there wasn't. She just did. It's very difficult to put that on him because it literally requires him to read her mind.

It is disgusting that he not only questions what I believe to be the victim he is defending the person who committed the wrong doing.

Why are you acting like you're not the person who started this thread ASKING a bunch of people on the internet if they THOUGHT she was a victim of date rape?

So after asking for peoples' opinions, you're going to call everyone who thinks differently than you "disgusting," and then ask them to stop posting their opinion.

Okie dokie.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

 

[dparker713]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I feel pretty confident nothing about this was a turn on to her once she put her hands on his shoulders and he pinned her. Not sure why her liking him carrying her to the room is a factor. She was also turned on by the kissing on the couch. She still has every right to stop him at any point regardless of what has taken place prior.

What has taken place prior is of course relevant.

Yes, of course she can at any time change her mind. They can enjoy making out and if she doesn't consent to go further and he physically forces it on her, that's rape. She can change course at any time.

But what happens earlier is relevant, at least to the question of whether he had any idea that she apparently changed her mind. They're getting hot and heavy on the couch. She claims that she was turned on by him being forceful and picking her up and carrying her to the bedroom. All of that is relevant to this thing from the guy's perspective. She's really into it, they're getting physical, it's getting hot and heavy, he picks her up to go to his room, and she seems to love it. They get into the bed. At some point everyone's clothes have presumably come off (I don't think I noticed this detail in your story). They're getting physical. She's not fighting it off, or saying no. She put her hands on his chest or shoulders. That's the universal sign for "don't rape me" under these circumstances?!

Sex is a physical act. It sounds as though she was consenting at least to heavy, physical action. She can't do that and then hit a point at which she's unsure in her head and decide "well, I'll say no in my mind, let's see where this goes," and suddenly this poor schlub is pegged a rapist?

I'm a dad of two girls, a brother of two younger sisters, and as firm a believer as anyone in protecting women and being a gentleman. But the threshold you're setting here is a bit ridiculous, unless there are some other facts we're missing. Just my opinion.

Best posting by Otis eva

I think the bolded is incorrect as I stated I am not sure if he was forceful in how he carried her or how long after he asked to take her to bedroom that he scooped her up. Her account was that it got rough once in the bedroom.

If someone is fearful of stopping you and you have pinned them I don't think ridiculous is the right word. I respect what you are trying to say but do not agree in the slightest that it is ridiculous to wonder if it was in fact rape.

She had no problem at all going to his house; making out with him; getting carried to his bedroom; and getting naked in his bed; but after all that, she's suddenly too shy or scared to even utter the word "no"? Did he pull out a machete, or did he -- shocking I know -- just try to have sex with the naked, apparently consenting adult woman in his bed?

You Otis I have always liked you and thought you to be very witty and intelligent. After this post I'm sorry but if from what I have posted you get to this point then I no longer feel that way. Not that it matters but what you are saying here honestly disgusts me.

I know she's your friend, but I have no idea what is disgusting there. Your (her) story is that after making out and getting naked with the guy, she instantly, for no apparent reasons:

1) Changes her mind about having sex.

2) Becomes immediately too scared to tell him as much.

Obviously, #1 is totally within her rights. Obviously. But if you're going to tell me that she passed up on using the universally accepted method of telling a guy "no" (i.e. telling him no) because she was too scared to, there has to be a reason for it. From what she's told you, there wasn't. She just did. It's very difficult to put that on him because it literally requires him to read her mind.

It is disgusting that he not only questions what I believe to be the victim he is defending the person who committed the wrong doing.

Is it not disgusting to question you?

 

[Otis]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

Pretty sure nobody in here endorses the "she was asking for it" line.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Actually, this is the first time you've described the event in this manner.

It was pretty clear in OP I thought.

 

[proninja]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

I think that you leaving this thread was a good idea. Might be time to turn off the computer and go play in real life for the rest of the night.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

She did ask for it. Then she didn't want it anymore. But she didn't/for some reason couldn't inform him of his change of heart.

Do not try and classify those of us who don't think this was rape with the "Well she's out in an alley at 2AM in a short skirt, she was asking for it" type cavemen. That's not even close to what people are saying here.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Just so I am clear

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Well, each time you type it out the context of what actually happened changes. The fact of the matter is that you have no idea what even happened and you have not really event constructed or presented an accurate timeline of what transpired.

But hey, let's do a search of the guy on the internet, hunt him down, and give the rapist a piece of your mind. Utterly ridiculous.

This is very consistent with what I have said the whole time. So if you thought someone you care for had been assaulted you wouldn't be curious about them?

 

[Slapdash]

This.

I actually felt kind of conflicted the first time I read through. I felt a little uncomfortable reading it, wondering if I'd ever been a little rapey in my younger days.

This is good. When researchers interview women about sexual assault, they find that many more women admit to having been assaulted than have been reported. Which presents a conundrum. We can choose to believe that these women have a self-deception problem where they somehow convince themselves after the fact that they have never consented, or men have a problem in misconstruing consent.

I think men should genuinely ask themselves how a woman they've been with would answer a future sexual assault researcher's question. From being on this board, I think a lot of potentially rapey behavior goes kind of unmentioned. Things like saying that you have to put a women in a situation where "she makes bad decisions" or that a shy guy has to "take control of the situation."

I don't think that makes those guys monsters, but I think they're wrong if they think they are genuinely getting consent. And I think its appropriate for the law to reflect that their mistaken beliefs aren't reasonable.

These are great posts. Unfortunately, this thread has become more about blaming the victim. Maybe that introspection hit too close to home for some.

 

[proninja]

Just to be clear, I'm not convinced this wasn't rape. Neither am I convinced that it was. In fact, I'd put it out there that none of us, PG included, know.

The only person we know of that was there didn't think it was rape.

 

[SIDA!]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

In the OP you intimated that you recently became friends with this person.

 

[johnnycakes]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I feel pretty confident nothing about this was a turn on to her once she put her hands on his shoulders and he pinned her. Not sure why her liking him carrying her to the room is a factor. She was also turned on by the kissing on the couch. She still has every right to stop him at any point regardless of what has taken place prior.

What has taken place prior is of course relevant.

Yes, of course she can at any time change her mind. They can enjoy making out and if she doesn't consent to go further and he physically forces it on her, that's rape. She can change course at any time.

But what happens earlier is relevant, at least to the question of whether he had any idea that she apparently changed her mind. They're getting hot and heavy on the couch. She claims that she was turned on by him being forceful and picking her up and carrying her to the bedroom. All of that is relevant to this thing from the guy's perspective. She's really into it, they're getting physical, it's getting hot and heavy, he picks her up to go to his room, and she seems to love it. They get into the bed. At some point everyone's clothes have presumably come off (I don't think I noticed this detail in your story). They're getting physical. She's not fighting it off, or saying no. She put her hands on his chest or shoulders. That's the universal sign for "don't rape me" under these circumstances?!

Sex is a physical act. It sounds as though she was consenting at least to heavy, physical action. She can't do that and then hit a point at which she's unsure in her head and decide "well, I'll say no in my mind, let's see where this goes," and suddenly this poor schlub is pegged a rapist?

I'm a dad of two girls, a brother of two younger sisters, and as firm a believer as anyone in protecting women and being a gentleman. But the threshold you're setting here is a bit ridiculous, unless there are some other facts we're missing. Just my opinion.

Best posting by Otis eva

I think the bolded is incorrect as I stated I am not sure if he was forceful in how he carried her or how long after he asked to take her to bedroom that he scooped her up. Her account was that it got rough once in the bedroom.If someone is fearful of stopping you and you have pinned them I don't think ridiculous is the right word. I respect what you are trying to say but do not agree in the slightest that it is ridiculous to wonder if it was in fact rape.

She had no problem at all going to his house; making out with him; getting carried to his bedroom; and getting naked in his bed; but after all that, she's suddenly too shy or scared to even utter the word "no"? Did he pull out a machete, or did he -- shocking I know -- just try to have sex with the naked, apparently consenting adult woman in his bed?

You Otis I have always liked you and thought you to be very witty and intelligent. After this post I'm sorry but if from what I have posted you get to this point then I no longer feel that way. Not that it matters but what you are saying here honestly disgusts me.

I know she's your friend, but I have no idea what is disgusting there. Your (her) story is that after making out and getting naked with the guy, she instantly, for no apparent reasons:

1) Changes her mind about having sex.

2) Becomes immediately too scared to tell him as much.

Obviously, #1 is totally within her rights. Obviously. But if you're going to tell me that she passed up on using the universally accepted method of telling a guy "no" (i.e. telling him no) because she was too scared to, there has to be a reason for it. From what she's told you, there wasn't. She just did. It's very difficult to put that on him because it literally requires him to read her mind.

It is disgusting that he not only questions what I believe to be the victim he is defending the person who committed the wrong doing.

Defending = not agreeing a rape was committed?

 

[Otis]

Just to be clear, I'm not convinced this wasn't rape. Neither am I convinced that it was. In fact, I'd put it out there that none of us, PG included, know.

The only person we know of that was there didn't think it was rape.

You MONSTER

 

[Slapdash]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I feel pretty confident nothing about this was a turn on to her once she put her hands on his shoulders and he pinned her. Not sure why her liking him carrying her to the room is a factor. She was also turned on by the kissing on the couch. She still has every right to stop him at any point regardless of what has taken place prior.

What has taken place prior is of course relevant.

Yes, of course she can at any time change her mind. They can enjoy making out and if she doesn't consent to go further and he physically forces it on her, that's rape. She can change course at any time.

But what happens earlier is relevant, at least to the question of whether he had any idea that she apparently changed her mind. They're getting hot and heavy on the couch. She claims that she was turned on by him being forceful and picking her up and carrying her to the bedroom. All of that is relevant to this thing from the guy's perspective. She's really into it, they're getting physical, it's getting hot and heavy, he picks her up to go to his room, and she seems to love it. They get into the bed. At some point everyone's clothes have presumably come off (I don't think I noticed this detail in your story). They're getting physical. She's not fighting it off, or saying no. She put her hands on his chest or shoulders. That's the universal sign for "don't rape me" under these circumstances?!

Sex is a physical act. It sounds as though she was consenting at least to heavy, physical action. She can't do that and then hit a point at which she's unsure in her head and decide "well, I'll say no in my mind, let's see where this goes," and suddenly this poor schlub is pegged a rapist?

I'm a dad of two girls, a brother of two younger sisters, and as firm a believer as anyone in protecting women and being a gentleman. But the threshold you're setting here is a bit ridiculous, unless there are some other facts we're missing. Just my opinion.

Best posting by Otis eva

I think the bolded is incorrect as I stated I am not sure if he was forceful in how he carried her or how long after he asked to take her to bedroom that he scooped her up. Her account was that it got rough once in the bedroom.If someone is fearful of stopping you and you have pinned them I don't think ridiculous is the right word. I respect what you are trying to say but do not agree in the slightest that it is ridiculous to wonder if it was in fact rape.

She had no problem at all going to his house; making out with him; getting carried to his bedroom; and getting naked in his bed; but after all that, she's suddenly too shy or scared to even utter the word "no"? Did he pull out a machete, or did he -- shocking I know -- just try to have sex with the naked, apparently consenting adult woman in his bed?

You Otis I have always liked you and thought you to be very witty and intelligent. After this post I'm sorry but if from what I have posted you get to this point then I no longer feel that way. Not that it matters but what you are saying here honestly disgusts me.

I know she's your friend, but I have no idea what is disgusting there. Your (her) story is that after making out and getting naked with the guy, she instantly, for no apparent reasons:

1) Changes her mind about having sex.

2) Becomes immediately too scared to tell him as much.

Obviously, #1 is totally within her rights. Obviously. But if you're going to tell me that she passed up on using the universally accepted method of telling a guy "no" (i.e. telling him no) because she was too scared to, there has to be a reason for it. From what she's told you, there wasn't. She just did. It's very difficult to put that on him because it literally requires him to read her mind.

It is disgusting that he not only questions what I believe to be the victim he is defending the person who committed the wrong doing.

Why are you acting like you're not the person who started this thread ASKING a bunch of people on the internet if they THOUGHT she was a victim of date rape?

So after asking for peoples' opinions, you're going to call everyone who thinks differently than you "disgusting," and then ask them to stop posting their opinion.

Okie dokie.

I'm going to guess he finds the blatant misrepresentation of the events he posted disgusting moreso than people saying they don't believe it is rape.

 

[Otis]

This.

I actually felt kind of conflicted the first time I read through. I felt a little uncomfortable reading it, wondering if I'd ever been a little rapey in my younger days.

This is good. When researchers interview women about sexual assault, they find that many more women admit to having been assaulted than have been reported. Which presents a conundrum. We can choose to believe that these women have a self-deception problem where they somehow convince themselves after the fact that they have never consented, or men have a problem in misconstruing consent.

I think men should genuinely ask themselves how a woman they've been with would answer a future sexual assault researcher's question. From being on this board, I think a lot of potentially rapey behavior goes kind of unmentioned. Things like saying that you have to put a women in a situation where "she makes bad decisions" or that a shy guy has to "take control of the situation."

I don't think that makes those guys monsters, but I think they're wrong if they think they are genuinely getting consent. And I think its appropriate for the law to reflect that their mistaken beliefs aren't reasonable.

These are great posts. Unfortunately, this thread has become more about blaming the victim. Maybe that introspection hit too close to home for some.

We don't know she's a victim. She doesn't even think she's a victim. Only the OP does.

Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. But I'm not ruining a young man's life because he can't read minds. That's not very fair.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I am completely fine if someone interprets it as not rape. I do not think it would be rape in the strictest terms but I have also said I am not trying to convict a guy. It is my opinion that he took the decision to stop away from her. Therefore this man disgusts me. It is hard for me to listen to people stand up for him while attacking the girl. I have also said she made several horribly bad choices that night, but if 1 inch away from entry she wants to stop it she can.

 

[Otis]

I am completely fine if someone interprets it as not rape. I do not think it would be rape in the strictest terms but I have also said I am not trying to convict a guy. It is my opinion that he took the decision to stop away from her. Therefore this man disgusts me. It is hard for me to listen to people stand up for him while attacking the girl. I have also said she made several horribly bad choices that night, but if 1 inch away from entry she wants to stop it she can.

Agree. By saying "no" or "stop." That happens, and all bets are off, and we all agree.

 

[dparker713]

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Actually, this is the first time you've described the event in this manner.

It was pretty clear in OP I thought.

OP: some what forcefully pushes her back down on the bed

Above: shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up

Notice the lack of any equivocation

OP: She puts her hands on his chest to push him away

Above: as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her

Notice the verb difference

OP: he smashes her arms against her and begins to have sex with her. Her arms are pinned on her chest in-between the 2 of them.

Above: he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her

Notice the struggling now included

OP: She honestly didn't paint it as a forced situation

Nothing of the like included in the above, infact the exact opposite is a reasonable reading of the above text.

 

[Bucky86]

48.8% of college women who were victims of attacks that met the studys definition of rape did not consider what happened to them rape. Bureau of Justice Stats. Sexual Victimization of Collegiate Women 2000, US DOJ.

 

[Otis]

Her describing the sex as "it felt wrong" strikes as something that absolutely wasn't rape, and absolutely was her regretting her decision to do it.

Man, if I could take back all the sex I regretted and call them rapes?

 

[proninja]

I am completely fine if someone interprets it as not rape. I do not think it would be rape in the strictest terms but I have also said I am not trying to convict a guy. It is my opinion that he took the decision to stop away from her. Therefore this man disgusts me. It is hard for me to listen to people stand up for him while attacking the girl. I have also said she made several horribly bad choices that night, but if 1 inch away from entry she wants to stop it she can.

Agree. By saying "no" or "stop." That happens, and all bets are off, and we all agree.

I would argue that there can be a nonverbal no too. PG is presenting it as an obvious nonverbal no. He could be right.

 

[Otis]

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Actually, this is the first time you've described the event in this manner.

It was pretty clear in OP I thought.

OP: some what forcefully pushes her back down on the bed

Above: shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up

Notice the lack of any equivocation

OP: She puts her hands on his chest to push him away

Above: as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her

Notice the verb difference

OP: he smashes her arms against her and begins to have sex with her. Her arms are pinned on her chest in-between the 2 of them.

Above: he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her

Notice the struggling now included

OP: She honestly didn't paint it as a forced situation

Nothing of the like included in the above, infact the exact opposite is a reasonable reading of the above text.

He isn't getting the response he wanted, so he's strengthening the language. Lord only knows at this point how she actually described it.

 

[proninja]

Her describing the sex as "it felt wrong" strikes as something that absolutely wasn't rape, and absolutely was her regretting her decision to do it.

Man, if I could take back all the sex I regretted and call them rapes?

lol @ you regretting sex

 

[Otis]

I am completely fine if someone interprets it as not rape. I do not think it would be rape in the strictest terms but I have also said I am not trying to convict a guy. It is my opinion that he took the decision to stop away from her. Therefore this man disgusts me. It is hard for me to listen to people stand up for him while attacking the girl. I have also said she made several horribly bad choices that night, but if 1 inch away from entry she wants to stop it she can.

Agree. By saying "no" or "stop." That happens, and all bets are off, and we all agree.

I would argue that there can be a nonverbal no too. PG is presenting it as an obvious nonverbal no. He could be right.

He's not presenting it as an obvious nonverbal no. He's hedging all of the place. He has no idea how obvious it was.

 

[Otis]

Her describing the sex as "it felt wrong" strikes as something that absolutely wasn't rape, and absolutely was her regretting her decision to do it.

Man, if I could take back all the sex I regretted and call them rapes?

lol @ you regretting sex

I wasn't proud of a few of those conquests, GB.

 

[proninja]

I am completely fine if someone interprets it as not rape. I do not think it would be rape in the strictest terms but I have also said I am not trying to convict a guy. It is my opinion that he took the decision to stop away from her. Therefore this man disgusts me. It is hard for me to listen to people stand up for him while attacking the girl. I have also said she made several horribly bad choices that night, but if 1 inch away from entry she wants to stop it she can.

Agree. By saying "no" or "stop." That happens, and all bets are off, and we all agree.

I would argue that there can be a nonverbal no too. PG is presenting it as an obvious nonverbal no. He could be right.

He's not presenting it as an obvious nonverbal no. He's hedging all of the place. He has no idea how obvious it was.

He honestly seems more sure that you're a bit rapey than he does what actually happened that night.

I think he's been drinking and he's a bit embarrassed and doesn't know when it's time to waive the white flag.

 

[Aerial Assault]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

In the OP you intimated that you recently became friends with this person.

No - - the original post stated that "I recently had a girl I have become friends with tell me about something that happened to her about 5 years ago."

You can read that in a number of ways, but "recently became friends with this person" isn't really one of them.

Not sure why there's any huge need to try to poke holes in PG's story.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I'm a little surprised the guys here with daughters would have no problem with this being their kid.

Hopefully our kids wouldn't do this. I'd also hate to raise a girl who presented as in the fact pattern attached and who would then go and try to ruin some young man's life as a result.

This is the part that got me so fired up. If you can't see the problem with it then fine. I simply questioned Otis use of the word ridiculous as the wrong word when his opinion differed from mine. I guess I should question his age since that is so original when someone doesn't agree with you.

Sida Along the way I disclosed my relationship with her and why I wasn't totally forthcoming.

 

[johnnycakes]

Her describing the sex as "it felt wrong" strikes as something that absolutely wasn't rape, and absolutely was her regretting her decision to do it.

Man, if I could take back all the sex I regretted and call them rapes?

I wonder if that's the kind of rapes high school boys are getting from their teachers these days.

 

[Otis]

She said the sex was very rough and felt wrong.

This is the most telling line in the OP. I believe it suggests she regretted it, didn't enjoy it, wish she hadn't done it perhaps, but it wasn't rape.

You don't describe rape as "it felt wrong" any more than you describe being shot in the gut as "I didn't really like it." But "it felt wrong" sounds very much like the way a girl might describe the scenario after the fact if she consented and later regretted it.

Just my take.

 

[PatsWillWin]

48.8% of college women who were victims of attacks that met the studys definition of rape did not consider what happened to them rape. Bureau of Justice Stats. Sexual Victimization of Collegiate Women 2000, US DOJ.

Pretty irrelevant unless we know why they didn't consider it was rape. My guess would be, as it's a college survey, that it had mostly to do with alcohol. A girl who is too drunk to consent = rape.

This situation really has nothing to do with alcohol or college, etc.

And of course the inverse of what you've posted is still that most college girls who've been raped do in fact recognize that they've been raped.

 

[dparker713]

I am completely fine if someone interprets it as not rape. I do not think it would be rape in the strictest terms but I have also said I am not trying to convict a guy. It is my opinion that he took the decision to stop away from her. Therefore this man disgusts me. It is hard for me to listen to people stand up for him while attacking the girl. I have also said she made several horribly bad choices that night, but if 1 inch away from entry she wants to stop it she can.

You have a weird definition of attacking.

 

[Otis]

I'm a little surprised the guys here with daughters would have no problem with this being their kid.

Hopefully our kids wouldn't do this. I'd also hate to raise a girl who presented as in the fact pattern attached and who would then go and try to ruin some young man's life as a result.

This is the part that got me so fired up. If you can't see the problem with it then fine. I simply questioned Otis use of the word ridiculous as the wrong word when his opinion differed from mine. I guess I should question his age since that is so original when someone doesn't agree with you.

Sida Along the way I disclosed my relationship with her and why I wasn't totally forthcoming.

Oh right. Because women are never crazy, they are always honest and right in these situations, and no poor honest guy ever gets screwed as a result.

What planet do you live on?

 

[SIDA!]

Just so I am clear

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Well, each time you type it out the context of what actually happened changes. The fact of the matter is that you have no idea what even happened and you have not really event constructed or presented an accurate timeline of what transpired.

But hey, let's do a search of the guy on the internet, hunt him down, and give the rapist a piece of your mind. Utterly ridiculous.

This is very consistent with what I have said the whole time. So if you thought someone you care for had been assaulted you wouldn't be curious about them?

This is what you wrote in the original post:

"She is laying on the bed at this point and starts to raise up. As she does this, he some what forcefully pushes her back down on the bed. She puts her hands on his chest to push him away and he smashes her arms against her and begins to have sex with her."

So a woman who admittedly likes an assertive/dominant/take charge guy allows him to carry her upstairs into bed, undress her and then after he undresses and gets prepared to mount her, she raises up and he "somewhat" forcefully pushes her back down on the bed. She then puts her hands on his chest to push him away (which by the way, doesn't even necessarily mean she actually pushed him away based on how you typed it) and then he smashers her arms against her.

There is really nothing in this description that one cannot reasonably argue was a dominant male taking charge in the bedroom. ####, every time I have sex I "somewhat" forcefully move my partner into my desired position and there have been countless times that I have had sex where I restrained a woman's arms, hands or wrists either against the bed or her chest. And there have been plenty of times where I aggressively mounted and smashed my body against my partners so that they were not free to move. Am I the only one having sex with women who like to be dominated, constricted and taken by their man?

I am not trying to blame a victim or defend a rapist. I do take significant offense and disgust at the prospect of ruining a person's reputation and possibly taking away their freedom because a grown woman allows herself to be taken into a bedroom and undressed but is somehow incapable of saying, "No!" or "Stop!".

But, hey, let me go back to the regularly scheduled programming about how women are strong, equals to men, should be allowed to fight in the trenches or are capable of having their finger on the button.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Actually, this is the first time you've described the event in this manner.

It was pretty clear in OP I thought.

OP: some what forcefully pushes her back down on the bed

Above: shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up

Notice the lack of any equivocation

OP: She puts her hands on his chest to push him away

Above: as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her

Notice the verb difference

OP: he smashes her arms against her and begins to have sex with her. Her arms are pinned on her chest in-between the 2 of them.

Above: he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her

Notice the struggling now included

OP: She honestly didn't paint it as a forced situation

Nothing of the like included in the above, infact the exact opposite is a reasonable reading of the above text.

He isn't getting the response he wanted, so he's strengthening the language. Lord only knows at this point how she actually described it.

Many people and maybe most did agree with me. Sorry from now on I will only copy and past the OP.

 

[SIDA!]

Her describing the sex as "it felt wrong" strikes as something that absolutely wasn't rape, and absolutely was her regretting her decision to do it.

Man, if I could take back all the sex I regretted and call them rapes?

lol @ you regretting sex

I wasn't proud of a few of those conquests, GB.

ROTFLMAO...many of us have a few of those. The difference is when you have a penis, you can't claim you were raped to get sympathy or save your honor.

 

[Slapdash]

This.

I actually felt kind of conflicted the first time I read through. I felt a little uncomfortable reading it, wondering if I'd ever been a little rapey in my younger days.

This is good. When researchers interview women about sexual assault, they find that many more women admit to having been assaulted than have been reported. Which presents a conundrum. We can choose to believe that these women have a self-deception problem where they somehow convince themselves after the fact that they have never consented, or men have a problem in misconstruing consent.

I think men should genuinely ask themselves how a woman they've been with would answer a future sexual assault researcher's question. From being on this board, I think a lot of potentially rapey behavior goes kind of unmentioned. Things like saying that you have to put a women in a situation where "she makes bad decisions" or that a shy guy has to "take control of the situation."

I don't think that makes those guys monsters, but I think they're wrong if they think they are genuinely getting consent. And I think its appropriate for the law to reflect that their mistaken beliefs aren't reasonable.

These are great posts. Unfortunately, this thread has become more about blaming the victim. Maybe that introspection hit too close to home for some.

We don't know she's a victim. She doesn't even think she's a victim. Only the OP does.

Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. But I'm not ruining a young man's life because he can't read minds. That's not very fair.

Probably was just crying all the way home about something else.

 

[Otis]

I am done in here. For goodness sakes how many times do I have to type this out, he shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up, as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her.

I hope this thread gets locked.

Actually, this is the first time you've described the event in this manner.

It was pretty clear in OP I thought.

OP: some what forcefully pushes her back down on the bed

Above: shoves her down on the bed as she is trying to get up

Notice the lack of any equivocation

OP: She puts her hands on his chest to push him away

Above: as she is trying to restrain him from climbing on top of her

Notice the verb difference

OP: he smashes her arms against her and begins to have sex with her. Her arms are pinned on her chest in-between the 2 of them.

Above: he smashes her arms up against her and keeps them pressed like that as she is trying to get them free as he begins having sex with her

Notice the struggling now included

OP: She honestly didn't paint it as a forced situation

Nothing of the like included in the above, infact the exact opposite is a reasonable reading of the above text.

He isn't getting the response he wanted, so he's strengthening the language. Lord only knows at this point how she actually described it.

Many people and maybe most did agree with me. Sorry from now on I will only copy and past the OP.

In fairness, this place has a bit of an "expected response." For some reason, you dangle the R-word, and the first 10 responses are all what they think the response is supposed to be. Sometimes the critical thinkers don't make it to a thread until later.

But yes, some people may agree with you. Others may disagree. Hopefully you'll survive in that world.

 

[mr fancypants]

I'm a little surprised the guys here with daughters would have no problem with this being their kid.

Hopefully our kids wouldn't do this. I'd also hate to raise a girl who presented as in the fact pattern attached and who would then go and try to ruin some young man's life as a result.

No offense, but it looks like all B86 is doing is trying to attach an emotional response to a situation being discussed for what actually happened. Otis is really given solid analysis here on an arbitrary level.

 

[dparker713]

48.8% of college women who were victims of attacks that met the studys definition of rape did not consider what happened to them rape. Bureau of Justice Stats. Sexual Victimization of Collegiate Women 2000, US DOJ.

The study's definition of rape would seem to be somewhat important to include, don't you think?

 

[SIDA!]

I have had many view points that differ from mine and accepted each. Try reading this thread completely. I am of course invested in this person but I am not interested in her. Strange to think the same crowd that offers such a strong opinion that goes along with the "she was asking for it" line seems to have a hard time believing that I can simply care for someone I watched grow from a little girl to a woman,

In the OP you intimated that you recently became friends with this person.

No - - the original post stated that "I recently had a girl I have become friends with tell me about something that happened to her about 5 years ago."

You can read that in a number of ways, but "recently became friends with this person" isn't really one of them.

Not sure why there's any huge need to try to poke holes in PG's story.

I disagree. He said "I recently had a girl I have become friends with ..."

The "I have become friends" with suggest exactly that...that it is a new friendship. Otherwise, it should read something along the lines of:

"I recently had a girl I am friends with" or "A friend of mine told me recently about something that happened to her..."

I am not really trying to poke holes in PG's story. I am trying to understand his story and the facts.