Was this date rape? (2 Viewers)

[Otis]

We have gotten way off track.

PG as you know the rest of the board will not be in agreement on rape/not rape but I am confident the rest of the board is all in agreement that you should in no way be trying to contact this guy...unless you want to potentially do something to ruin your life

Amen. Whether you find me disgusting or not for expressing an opposing viewpoint, stop chasing this breadcrumb trail. It's totally not worth it.

 

[fatness]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

 

[TxBuckeye]

She said the sex was very rough and felt wrong.

This is the most telling line in the OP. I believe it suggests she regretted it, didn't enjoy it, wish she hadn't done it perhaps, but it wasn't rape.

You don't describe rape as "it felt wrong" any more than you describe being shot in the gut as "I didn't really like it." But "it felt wrong" sounds very much like the way a girl might describe the scenario after the fact if she consented and later regretted it.

Just my take.

What's your experience in this field?

What experience is required to offer a personal opinion on a message board? Just asking for future reference....

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I've been on this board since 2003, yet I am relatively a nobody. Never once have I started a fishing trip and if I wanted to, rape would not be the topic.

I am struggling coming to terms with this. I know I am emotionally attached to someone involved and I have not heard his side of the story. I do know that what she feels is real to her.

I am a bit shocked that some have taken shots at the girl.

I can't get my head around the group that doesn't see her attempting to stop him physically as an attempt to say no or stop. I never once said he took her to the bedroom caveman style. To my knowledge it was more like sweeping her off her feet type move however this was implied and not said specifically. Once in the bedroom though is when he became rough and forceful. I also understand that fear would keep a woman from resisting or saying no. Not to make light or take shots at people I don't know but some of the opinions on this specific point disappoint me - because she went to the room she implied sex, because she let him undress her she should have sex etc. Sure at those moments she probably did but she changed her mind. I could tell you why but I just never thought it mattered to the facts. Why she changed her mind is irrelevant, only thing that matters is she did.

Maybe she was into it more than she is letting on. Maybe a hundred other things are possible but I just don't see how with what is presented here how anyone could not believe the guy forced her into having sex. I wish I hadn't asked it as a rape question but not sure how else I would've worded it. I wish I had stated my opinion in the question but tried not to influence the comments and tried to just relay the story as accurately as I could.

You're relating a second hand account of one side of a story. And you're surprised disinterested third parties are picking the story apart?

No I am fine with people picking it apart and being disinterested but I would think that if the accounts are true as I stated it might garner a little sensitivity towards her. Saying she is probably someone who seeks out drama in every stage of her life or other similar statements to me is no better than saying, "well she shouldn't have been wearing a miniskirt", or when people have said that her allowing herself to be carried into the bedroom implies consent. No it implies mixed signals not consent. She still had the right to change her mind.

You would be better off dropping this part. The way you told the story, most of us seem to think it's pretty clear that she is consenting during the "carried to the bedroom" part and for some time beyond that. Of course you're correct that she has the right to withdraw consent. I'm not sure why you're hanging onto this point.

 

[Tyranny]

Plain and simple it is Rape, in California this would be rape and a law has passed stating it.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/08/28/california-bill-yes-means-yes-sex-assault/14765665/

 

[dparker713]

Plain and simple it is Rape, in California this would be rape and a law has passed stating it.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/08/28/california-bill-yes-means-yes-sex-assault/14765665/

Please point to anywhere in the thread where it was stated that this happened on a college campus.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

48.8% of college women who were victims of attacks that met the studys definition of rape did not consider what happened to them rape. Bureau of Justice Stats. Sexual Victimization of Collegiate Women 2000, US DOJ.

I know you don't intend it this way, but this statistic is a good argument for why that "one in five" factoid is worthless. If half of the alleged "victims" don't perceive themselves as having been victimized, that seriously calls into question the definition of rape you're employing.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Plain and simple it is Rape, in California this would be rape and a law has passed stating it.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/08/28/california-bill-yes-means-yes-sex-assault/14765665/

Please point to anywhere in the thread where it was stated that this happened on a college campus.

What the hell do you want people to do? Read beyond the title? Come on man.

 

[comfortably numb]

Plain and simple it is Rape, in California this would be rape and a law has passed stating it.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/08/28/california-bill-yes-means-yes-sex-assault/14765665/

Please point to anywhere in the thread where it was stated that this happened on a college campus.

What the hell do you want people to do? Read beyond the title? Come on man.

I called my friend and told him California adopted the band Yes.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Plain and simple it is Rape, in California this would be rape and a law has passed stating it.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/08/28/california-bill-yes-means-yes-sex-assault/14765665/

From what I read there this would make the behavior of not obtaining an affirmative "yes" prior to sex unacceptable behavior on a college campus that accepts state financing, but it does not define rape in the criminal law. I'll read it again in case I got it wrong. Your law seems to be about getting expelled from campus, not going to jail.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Not to back track but Otis why I felt offended by what you said - I respectfully took into account your differing take on the situation but suggested that the word ridiculous might not have been the best word for you to use. That word has a certain connotation and implies that my argument is not valid. Your reply to that was to try and discredit the girl and defend the guy.

I have given a lot of thought to the circumstances. First thing some of you seem to lack the empathy necessary to put your self in the shoes of a 5'0 105lb girls shoes. You see it as "I've had girls do that and I sure ain't no rapist." From all accounts I have given nothing got rough until she tried to stop it, and she never indicated she was into it being that way. Try for just one moment to imagine she is telling the truth, that she was trying to stand up and he shoved her back down. She is now scared, where did this come from, why is he doing this...what's about to happen here?

Now if you can try and keep an open mind because I am not an expert but I am very familiar with bio-mechanics so I think I am somewhat accurate. If you are making a half hearted effort to push some one away or hold them off you, then at some point your arms would simply slide around them and you would have your arms free. If however you are keeping the strong resistance against him the entire time then your arms become pinned. Next he is keeping his body pressed so tight that she is unable to free her hands.

Guys I don't care to talk about my sexual history but I can promise you my resume would be applause worthy. I have experienced the hot, rough sex. I wasn't there but according to the story I was told this just wasn't how this was. I think many of you have made that assumption based on the fact he carried her into the room but as I have said, she didn't describe it that way and it came across as more of a romantic gesture.

As far as me trying to find the guy. I spent 5 minutes looking him up. I have no intentions of physically confronting him. The majority of the time I spent "looking" was entering all my friends names to see who didn't show up. I did this because I thought that this guy maybe gave her false information about his name and wanted to see how common it was for there to be no record of a person at all. Not one didn't show up in some way shape or form, just him. If he did give false info would that perhaps make one wonder about the kind of person we are talking about her because it has for me. I doubt that he did but I find it a possibility.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

 

[dparker713]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

That's kind of a prerequisite for communicating with another human being.

 

[FUBAR]

She said the sex was very rough and felt wrong.

This is the most telling line in the OP. I believe it suggests she regretted it, didn't enjoy it, wish she hadn't done it perhaps, but it wasn't rape.

You don't describe rape as "it felt wrong" any more than you describe being shot in the gut as "I didn't really like it." But "it felt wrong" sounds very much like the way a girl might describe the scenario after the fact if she consented and later regretted it.

Just my take.

What's your experience in this field?

What experience is required to offer a personal opinion on a message board? Just asking for future reference....

None

I was asking for context

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Not to back track but Otis why I felt offended by what you said - I respectfully took into account your differing take on the situation but suggested that the word ridiculous might not have been the best word for you to use. That word has a certain connotation and implies that my argument is not valid. Your reply to that was to try and discredit the girl and defend the guy.

I have given a lot of thought to the circumstances. First thing some of you seem to lack the empathy necessary to put your self in the shoes of a 5'0 105lb girls shoes. You see it as "I've had girls do that and I sure ain't no rapist." From all accounts I have given nothing got rough until she tried to stop it, and she never indicated she was into it being that way. Try for just one moment to imagine she is telling the truth, that she was trying to stand up and he shoved her back down. She is now scared, where did this come from, why is he doing this...what's about to happen here?

Now if you can try and keep an open mind because I am not an expert but I am very familiar with bio-mechanics so I think I am somewhat accurate. If you are making a half hearted effort to push some one away or hold them off you, then at some point your arms would simply slide around them and you would have your arms free. If however you are keeping the strong resistance against him the entire time then your arms become pinned. Next he is keeping his body pressed so tight that she is unable to free her hands.

Guys I don't care to talk about my sexual history but I can promise you my resume would be applause worthy. I have experienced the hot, rough sex. I wasn't there but according to the story I was told this just wasn't how this was. I think many of you have made that assumption based on the fact he carried her into the room but as I have said, she didn't describe it that way and it came across as more of a romantic gesture.

As far as me trying to find the guy. I spent 5 minutes looking him up. I have no intentions of physically confronting him. The majority of the time I spent "looking" was entering all my friends names to see who didn't show up. I did this because I thought that this guy maybe gave her false information about his name and wanted to see how common it was for there to be no record of a person at all. Not one didn't show up in some way shape or form, just him. If he did give false info would that perhaps make one wonder about the kind of person we are talking about her because it has for me. I doubt that he did but I find it a possibility.

Written communication is a dicey proposition. Good writing really is very rare. Your original post implied matters, and your readers, or some of them, made inferences therefrom. Subsequently you elaborated upon the situation, and in my mind, and from some responses, in the minds of other posters, changed the story. That is not to say that you did so in your mind, but rather in ours through better or subsequent communication.

Had your original post contained what is now a more precisely defined scenario you may well have gotten a response that was more supportive of your view. I would chalk this whole thread up to a misunderstanding based upon the clarity of writing involved.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

That's kind of a prerequisite for communicating with another human being.

In this scenario there was a really easy way for the guy to find out if the girl was consenting before he pushed her down and restrained her to have sex. He could have asked.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Teach your daughters that an erect penis has poor listening skills.

 

[Papa Georgio]

She said the sex was very rough and felt wrong.

This is the most telling line in the OP. I believe it suggests she regretted it, didn't enjoy it, wish she hadn't done it perhaps, but it wasn't rape.

You don't describe rape as "it felt wrong" any more than you describe being shot in the gut as "I didn't really like it." But "it felt wrong" sounds very much like the way a girl might describe the scenario after the fact if she consented and later regretted it.

Just my take.

What's your experience in this field?

What experience is required to offer a personal opinion on a message board? Just asking for future reference....

None

I was asking for context

Another way of looking at it might be that she is in denial and this is another attempt at trying to lie to herself but not painting it as bad as it was. I don't think you start shaking and crying over a night you simply regret over 5 years later. I feel like I have to say this each time now but I get your point and understand it to be a valid.

 

[FUBAR]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Only a fool would argue with your wife, but we find females are usually harder on female alleged victims

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Yeah, I think after you convey that you are consenting to sex by allowing yourself to be carried up to a dude's bedroom and letting him undress you that the burden is probably on you to inform the other party that you have suddenly changed your mind.

The bolded has been bolded just so I can reiterate that according to her own telling of events, she was on board with those things happening. I'm not inferring that she "allowed" it, she said she did. She said enjoyed it, she was turned on, caught in the moment, all those things that the OP wrote. It was not until after she had let him undress her that she changed her mind, and then mentioned feeling "afraid" after the pushing.

Who is supposed to let him know she's changed her mind if not her? We're on the 8th page and to me, this still sounds like he's supposed to be able to read her mind. I also don't really see why she was so suddenly afraid of a guy that 30 seconds before becoming too afraid to say the word "no," she was comfortable getting naked alone in his bedroom.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Only a fool would argue with your wife, but we find females are usually harder on female alleged victims

Yeah, I hesitated to even post it because I expected to then get the "well my wife says..." replies.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

That's kind of a prerequisite for communicating with another human being.

In this scenario there was a really easy way for the guy to find out if the girl was consenting before he pushed her down and restrained her to have sex. He could have asked.

So after they've made out, and after she lets him undress her in his bedroom, you think it's necessary for him to ask her if she is consenting to sex? Like she might be misinterpreting what is going on? Really?

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Only a fool would argue with your wife, but we find females are usually harder on female alleged victims

I don't really see any reason to argue with his wife. If men can't understand how women feel in that situation, seems like more evidence that it really is not reasonable to expect this guy to know what was going on in her head.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Not to back track but Otis why I felt offended by what you said - I respectfully took into account your differing take on the situation but suggested that the word ridiculous might not have been the best word for you to use. That word has a certain connotation and implies that my argument is not valid. Your reply to that was to try and discredit the girl and defend the guy.

I have given a lot of thought to the circumstances. First thing some of you seem to lack the empathy necessary to put your self in the shoes of a 5'0 105lb girls shoes. You see it as "I've had girls do that and I sure ain't no rapist." From all accounts I have given nothing got rough until she tried to stop it, and she never indicated she was into it being that way. Try for just one moment to imagine she is telling the truth, that she was trying to stand up and he shoved her back down. She is now scared, where did this come from, why is he doing this...what's about to happen here?

Now if you can try and keep an open mind because I am not an expert but I am very familiar with bio-mechanics so I think I am somewhat accurate. If you are making a half hearted effort to push some one away or hold them off you, then at some point your arms would simply slide around them and you would have your arms free. If however you are keeping the strong resistance against him the entire time then your arms become pinned. Next he is keeping his body pressed so tight that she is unable to free her hands.

Guys I don't care to talk about my sexual history but I can promise you my resume would be applause worthy. I have experienced the hot, rough sex. I wasn't there but according to the story I was told this just wasn't how this was. I think many of you have made that assumption based on the fact he carried her into the room but as I have said, she didn't describe it that way and it came across as more of a romantic gesture.

As far as me trying to find the guy. I spent 5 minutes looking him up. I have no intentions of physically confronting him. The majority of the time I spent "looking" was entering all my friends names to see who didn't show up. I did this because I thought that this guy maybe gave her false information about his name and wanted to see how common it was for there to be no record of a person at all. Not one didn't show up in some way shape or form, just him. If he did give false info would that perhaps make one wonder about the kind of person we are talking about her because it has for me. I doubt that he did but I find it a possibility.

Written communication is a dicey proposition. Good writing really is very rare. Your original post implied matters, and your readers, or some of them, made inferences therefrom. Subsequently you elaborated upon the situation, and in my mind, and from some responses, in the minds of other posters, changed the story. That is not to say that you did so in your mind, but rather in ours through better or subsequent communication.

Had your original post contained what is now a more precisely defined scenario you may well have gotten a response that was more supportive of your view. I would chalk this whole thread up to a misunderstanding based upon the clarity of writing involved.

I totally agree. I am not well written. I can't weave a story and draw people in on message boards. I usually, and in this case I certainly did try to state the facts in the most efficient way possible which meant leaving out some descriptive words. I honestly did not and do not care if some people didn't share my point of view. However I was not prepared that some did not see him at fault on some level and even have went so far as to passively attack the girl.

The main issue that I have a hard time getting my head around is the argument that he might not have known. Like I said earlier I just think some people lack the empathy it takes to consider the situation appropriately.

 

[proninja]

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Sure. But that doesn't make it rape either, though it is a very convenient way to totally dismiss everything that has been said without engaging it

 

[dparker713]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

That's kind of a prerequisite for communicating with another human being.

In this scenario there was a really easy way for the guy to find out if the girl was consenting before he pushed her down and restrained her to have sex. He could have asked.

By the account in the OP, the two of them were mutually enjoying themselves and naked. And then she changed her mind. What if he asks prior to her changing her mind? Is he then supposed to continue to ask throughout intercourse? At what point do you put the onus on the girl to verbalize and/or unequivocally demonstrate her lack of consent?

 

[FUBAR]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Only a fool would argue with your wife, but we find females are usually harder on female alleged victims

I don't really see any reason to argue with his wife. If men can't understand how women feel in that situation, seems like more evidence that it really is not reasonable to expect this guy to know what was going on in her head.

The only thing I'm really arguing against is the notion that we could tell if it was rape based on her conduct afterwards.

 

[dparker713]

She said the sex was very rough and felt wrong.

This is the most telling line in the OP. I believe it suggests she regretted it, didn't enjoy it, wish she hadn't done it perhaps, but it wasn't rape.

You don't describe rape as "it felt wrong" any more than you describe being shot in the gut as "I didn't really like it." But "it felt wrong" sounds very much like the way a girl might describe the scenario after the fact if she consented and later regretted it.

Just my take.

What's your experience in this field?

What experience is required to offer a personal opinion on a message board? Just asking for future reference....

None

I was asking for context

Another way of looking at it might be that she is in denial and this is another attempt at trying to lie to herself but not painting it as bad as it was. I don't think you start shaking and crying over a night you simply regret over 5 years later. I feel like I have to say this each time now but I get your point and understand it to be a valid.

Wait, so you can speculate that she's lying to herself, but no one else can question anything in her story as related by you?

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

By the account in the OP, the two of them were mutually enjoying themselves and naked. And then she changed her mind. What if he asks prior to her changing her mind? Is he then supposed to continue to ask throughout intercourse? At what point do you put the onus on the girl to verbalize and/or unequivocally demonstrate her lack of consent?

Before pushing her down on the bed and restraining her arms in order to penetrate her seems like a pretty good time.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Yeah, I think after you convey that you are consenting to sex by allowing yourself to be carried up to a dude's bedroom and letting him undress you that the burden is probably on you to inform the other party that you have suddenly changed your mind.

The bolded has been bolded just so I can reiterate that according to her own telling of events, she was on board with those things happening. I'm not inferring that she "allowed" it, she said she did. She said enjoyed it, she was turned on, caught in the moment, all those things that the OP wrote. It was not until after she had let him undress her that she changed her mind, and then mentioned feeling "afraid" after the pushing.

Who is supposed to let him know she's changed her mind if not her? We're on the 8th page and to me, this still sounds like he's supposed to be able to read her mind. I also don't really see why she was so suddenly afraid of a guy that 30 seconds before becoming too afraid to say the word "no," she was comfortable getting naked alone in his bedroom.

These are the exact posts that bother me. She got scared when he got rough. What part do you not understand about that? Odds are sex was on the table but instead of going about it in the appropriate way he got rough when she resisted. Had he gotten rough on the cough say when he stopped her from feeling her up then she would have gotten scared then too.

When you watch that video of that huge dead snake and then at the end the thing strikes at you because it wasn't dead at all, did you jump when they showed the tail or was it when the snakes fangs were coming at the camera that you jumped?

 

[Papa Georgio]

She said the sex was very rough and felt wrong.

This is the most telling line in the OP. I believe it suggests she regretted it, didn't enjoy it, wish she hadn't done it perhaps, but it wasn't rape.

You don't describe rape as "it felt wrong" any more than you describe being shot in the gut as "I didn't really like it." But "it felt wrong" sounds very much like the way a girl might describe the scenario after the fact if she consented and later regretted it.

Just my take.

What's your experience in this field?

What experience is required to offer a personal opinion on a message board? Just asking for future reference....

None

I was asking for context

Another way of looking at it might be that she is in denial and this is another attempt at trying to lie to herself but not painting it as bad as it was. I don't think you start shaking and crying over a night you simply regret over 5 years later. I feel like I have to say this each time now but I get your point and understand it to be a valid.

Wait, so you can speculate that she's lying to herself, but no one else can question anything in her story as related by you?

Please stop and read the numerous times I have been disagreed with in which I accepted someone else's POV. I have covered this. If you wish to focus on last nights exchange I have covered that as well. Other wise contribute something or go somewhere else to provoke someone.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Only a fool would argue with your wife, but we find females are usually harder on female alleged victims

I don't really see any reason to argue with his wife. If men can't understand how women feel in that situation, seems like more evidence that it really is not reasonable to expect this guy to know what was going on in her head.

The only thing I'm really arguing against is the notion that we could tell if it was rape based on her conduct afterwards.

Oh. Well I think that notion is silly, so no argument there.

 

[dparker713]

By the account in the OP, the two of them were mutually enjoying themselves and naked. And then she changed her mind. What if he asks prior to her changing her mind? Is he then supposed to continue to ask throughout intercourse? At what point do you put the onus on the girl to verbalize and/or unequivocally demonstrate her lack of consent?

Before pushing her down on the bed and restraining her arms in order to penetrate while penetrating her seems like a pretty good time.

In the OP, she did not resist. She did not try to free her arms or struggle with him. Therefore, its not like he needed to pin her arms to penetrate her.

By your response, had he asked for consent, been granted consent, started to have sex in a manner she did not enjoy, yet she does not object or revoke her consent in a demonstrable way, he's guilty for not having asked for consent again?

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Yeah, I think after you convey that you are consenting to sex by allowing yourself to be carried up to a dude's bedroom and letting him undress you that the burden is probably on you to inform the other party that you have suddenly changed your mind.

The bolded has been bolded just so I can reiterate that according to her own telling of events, she was on board with those things happening. I'm not inferring that she "allowed" it, she said she did. She said enjoyed it, she was turned on, caught in the moment, all those things that the OP wrote. It was not until after she had let him undress her that she changed her mind, and then mentioned feeling "afraid" after the pushing.

Who is supposed to let him know she's changed her mind if not her? We're on the 8th page and to me, this still sounds like he's supposed to be able to read her mind. I also don't really see why she was so suddenly afraid of a guy that 30 seconds before becoming too afraid to say the word "no," she was comfortable getting naked alone in his bedroom.

These are the exact posts that bother me. She got scared when he got rough. What part do you not understand about that. Odds are sex was on the table but instead of going about it in the appropriate way he got rough when she resisted. Had he gotten rough on the cough say when he stopped her from feeling her up then she would have gotten scared then too.

When you watch that video of that huge dead snake and then at the end the thing strikes at you because it wasn't dead at all, did you jump when they showed the tail or was it when the snakes fangs were coming at the camera that you jumped?

I get that she got "scared" when he got rough. I just don't see how that gets us to this guy being a rapist.

I'm not saying I'd want my daughter to date this guy. He sounds like an aggressive #######. But right up until the moment that he pushed her, she'd been giving him a pretty clear green light. Then he gets rough with her, and they have rough sex.

I can totally, 100% understand that a girl in this situation might get scared by how the sex began. I can even buy that she was too scared to even say "no," although that seems extremely odd to me. But sure, fear is not a logical thing, it doesn't have to make sense.

But if we're going to talk about this being a rape, that means this guy was a rapist. To me, in order for him to be a rapist, he had to have reason to think that he was having sex with her without her consent (or if we're talking legally, a reasonable person would have had reason to believe that). I just can't get there. It sounds like he's an aggressive ##### who is into aggressive ##### sex. He may have thought that she would like it, or he may not have cared. The point is, there's really nothing there that signals to him "Hey, I've changed my mind a few seconds ago, I no longer consent." Without that, I can't get to this being rape. Being an aggressive ##### in bed doesn't make you a rapist.

And I'll reiterate, I feel bad for your friend because she obviously feels ####ty about the situation. But I think she feels ####ty because she had sex with this guy when she knew it wasn't a good idea, and it turned out to be really unpleasant, rough sex, and she probably feels really ####ty about it. That sucks, I just don't think it's rape.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

By the account in the OP, the two of them were mutually enjoying themselves and naked. And then she changed her mind. What if he asks prior to her changing her mind? Is he then supposed to continue to ask throughout intercourse? At what point do you put the onus on the girl to verbalize and/or unequivocally demonstrate her lack of consent?

Before pushing her down on the bed and restraining her arms in order to penetrate while penetrating her seems like a pretty good time.

In the OP, she did not resist. She did not try to free her arms or struggle with him. Therefore, its not like he needed to pin her arms to penetrate her.

By your response, had he asked for consent, been granted consent, started to have sex in a manner she did not enjoy, yet she does not object or revoke her consent in a demonstrable way, he's guilty for not having asked for consent again?

he is laying on the bed at this point and starts to raise up. As she does this, he some what forcefully pushes her back down on the bed. She puts her hands on his chest to push him away and he smashes her arms against her and begins to have sex with her. Her arms are pinned on her chest in-between the 2 of them. She never said don't or stop, said at this point she was afraid to.

He never asks for consent at this point. When he actually did ask earlier he didn't get it, but let's go along with the idea that her actions after he picks her up gave him the idea he had consent for sex.

I don't see how any reasonable person can read this and not understand how she might have some concern for her safety at that point. He had earlier directly ignored her stated wishes, whether she enjoyed that or not it lays a precedent that what she says may not matter. I can fully agree that this guy probably didn't intend to create an environment where she didn't feel safe, but it's not like mental telepathy is required here. A simple, "is this okay?" could have prevented the situation from being one where the girl felt compromised and he was extremely vulnerable to a rape conviction had this girl reported immediately afterwards.

 

[comfortably numb]

Right.

Well put.

I mean after he brings her to bed, undresses her and before he gets rough with her, he stops to put a condom on.

In no way is she asking for any of this and she can change her mind 20 seconds before he finishes but she has to have some responsibility to do anything to convey she wants it to stop immediately.

 

[PatsWillWin]

By the account in the OP, the two of them were mutually enjoying themselves and naked. And then she changed her mind. What if he asks prior to her changing her mind? Is he then supposed to continue to ask throughout intercourse? At what point do you put the onus on the girl to verbalize and/or unequivocally demonstrate her lack of consent?

Before pushing her down on the bed and restraining her arms in order to penetrate while penetrating her seems like a pretty good time.

In the OP, she did not resist. She did not try to free her arms or struggle with him. Therefore, its not like he needed to pin her arms to penetrate her.

By your response, had he asked for consent, been granted consent, started to have sex in a manner she did not enjoy, yet she does not object or revoke her consent in a demonstrable way, he's guilty for not having asked for consent again?

he is laying on the bed at this point and starts to raise up. As she does this, he some what forcefully pushes her back down on the bed. She puts her hands on his chest to push him away and he smashes her arms against her and begins to have sex with her. Her arms are pinned on her chest in-between the 2 of them. She never said don't or stop, said at this point she was afraid to.

He never asks for consent at this point. When he actually did ask earlier he didn't get it, but let's go along with the idea that her actions after he picks her up gave him the idea he had consent for sex.

I don't see how any reasonable person can read this and not understand how she might have some concern for her safety at that point. He had earlier directly ignored her stated wishes, whether she enjoyed that or not it lays a precedent that what she says may not matter. I can fully agree that this guy probably didn't intend to create an environment where she didn't feel safe, but it's not like mental telepathy is required here. A simple, "is this okay?" could have prevented the situation from being one where the girl felt compromised and he was extremely vulnerable to a rape conviction had this girl reported immediately afterwards.

I agree with what you're saying here, but this doesn't get us to "rape."

 

[fatness]

Member name Posts
Papa Georgio 42
Otis 41
Bucky86 29
Arsenal of Doom 23
PatsWillWin 21
SIDA! 19
dparker713 16
FUBAR 13
MC Gas Money 11
johnnycakes 10
proninja 10

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Right.

Well put.

I mean after he brings her to bed, undresses her and before he gets rough with her, he stops to put a condom on.

In no way is she asking for any of this and she can change her mind 20 seconds before he finishes but she has to have some responsibility to do anything to convey she wants it to stop immediately.

By the account in the OP, the two of them were mutually enjoying themselves and naked. And then she changed her mind. What if he asks prior to her changing her mind? Is he then supposed to continue to ask throughout intercourse? At what point do you put the onus on the girl to verbalize and/or unequivocally demonstrate her lack of consent?

Before pushing her down on the bed and restraining her arms in order to penetrate while penetrating her seems like a pretty good time.

In the OP, she did not resist. She did not try to free her arms or struggle with him. Therefore, its not like he needed to pin her arms to penetrate her.

By your response, had he asked for consent, been granted consent, started to have sex in a manner she did not enjoy, yet she does not object or revoke her consent in a demonstrable way, he's guilty for not having asked for consent again?

he is laying on the bed at this point and starts to raise up. As she does this, he some what forcefully pushes her back down on the bed. She puts her hands on his chest to push him away and he smashes her arms against her and begins to have sex with her. Her arms are pinned on her chest in-between the 2 of them. She never said don't or stop, said at this point she was afraid to.

He never asks for consent at this point. When he actually did ask earlier he didn't get it, but let's go along with the idea that her actions after he picks her up gave him the idea he had consent for sex.

I don't see how any reasonable person can read this and not understand how she might have some concern for her safety at that point. He had earlier directly ignored her stated wishes, whether she enjoyed that or not it lays a precedent that what she says may not matter. I can fully agree that this guy probably didn't intend to create an environment where she didn't feel safe, but it's not like mental telepathy is required here. A simple, "is this okay?" could have prevented the situation from being one where the girl felt compromised and he was extremely vulnerable to a rape conviction had this girl reported immediately afterwards.

I agree with what you're saying here, but this doesn't get us to "rape."

What gets us to rape is that she tries to push him away. That breaks whatever assumption of consent existed at that point. The girl doesn't have a responsibility at that point to say "no" or otherwise resist, if she even could being pinned. For consent to exist it needs to be in environment where people feel safe saying no, and again I think there's plenty of reason to see why the girl didn't feel safe.

 

[proninja]

What gets us to rape is that she tries to push him away. That breaks whatever assumption of consent existed at that point. The girl doesn't have a responsibility at that point to say "no" or otherwise resist, if she even could being pinned. For consent to exist it needs to be in environment where people feel safe saying no, and again I think there's plenty of reason to see why the girl didn't feel safe.

Do you feel confident enough based on what you know to assert that this is rape (and if it is rape, that he should have been charged and punished?)

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

What gets us to rape is that she tries to push him away. That breaks whatever assumption of consent existed at that point. The girl doesn't have a responsibility at that point to say "no" or otherwise resist, if she even could being pinned. For consent to exist it needs to be in environment where people feel safe saying no, and again I think there's plenty of reason to see why the girl didn't feel safe.

Do you feel confident enough based on what you know to assert that this is rape (and if it is rape, that he should have been charged and punished?)

With the big assumption that all the supporting details that would come out in an investigation and trial lead to the same outline of facts as described in the OP, yes.

ETA: and obviously based on the assumption this had been reported reasonably after it happened

 

[dparker713]

Right.

Well put.

I mean after he brings her to bed, undresses her and before he gets rough with her, he stops to put a condom on.

In no way is she asking for any of this and she can change her mind 20 seconds before he finishes but she has to have some responsibility to do anything to convey she wants it to stop immediately.

By the account in the OP, the two of them were mutually enjoying themselves and naked. And then she changed her mind. What if he asks prior to her changing her mind? Is he then supposed to continue to ask throughout intercourse? At what point do you put the onus on the girl to verbalize and/or unequivocally demonstrate her lack of consent?

Before pushing her down on the bed and restraining her arms in order to penetrate while penetrating her seems like a pretty good time.

In the OP, she did not resist. She did not try to free her arms or struggle with him. Therefore, its not like he needed to pin her arms to penetrate her.

By your response, had he asked for consent, been granted consent, started to have sex in a manner she did not enjoy, yet she does not object or revoke her consent in a demonstrable way, he's guilty for not having asked for consent again?

he is laying on the bed at this point and starts to raise up. As she does this, he some what forcefully pushes her back down on the bed. She puts her hands on his chest to push him away and he smashes her arms against her and begins to have sex with her. Her arms are pinned on her chest in-between the 2 of them. She never said don't or stop, said at this point she was afraid to.

He never asks for consent at this point. When he actually did ask earlier he didn't get it, but let's go along with the idea that her actions after he picks her up gave him the idea he had consent for sex.

I don't see how any reasonable person can read this and not understand how she might have some concern for her safety at that point. He had earlier directly ignored her stated wishes, whether she enjoyed that or not it lays a precedent that what she says may not matter. I can fully agree that this guy probably didn't intend to create an environment where she didn't feel safe, but it's not like mental telepathy is required here. A simple, "is this okay?" could have prevented the situation from being one where the girl felt compromised and he was extremely vulnerable to a rape conviction had this girl reported immediately afterwards.

I agree with what you're saying here, but this doesn't get us to "rape."

What gets us to rape is that she tries to push him away. That breaks whatever assumption of consent existed at that point. The girl doesn't have a responsibility at that point to say "no" or otherwise resist, if she even could being pinned. For consent to exist it needs to be in environment where people feel safe saying no, and again I think there's plenty of reason to see why the girl didn't feel safe.

"She puts her hands on his chest to push him away" is not the same as "she tries to push him away" The range of interpretations of her actions goes from just putting her hands on him to using her full strength pushing on his chest. Her actions could have been a clear indication that consent was revoked. Her actions could have also given next to no indication she was uncomfortable.

 

[TxBuckeye]

This thread makes me glad I'm married. I can't imagine tip-toeing through the mine field that dating and sex has become.

 

[Otis]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared..

Of course the burden is on her at that point. If she has been saying yes all night, is making out with him, is sexually aroused when he picks her up and carries her to his bed, and gets naked? Yes, at that point, if she wants to change her mind, the onus is on her to communicate that. End of story.

If we adopt the line of reasoning some in here propose, every young man is hosed, because all it takes is a girl following through on these facts, later deciding it "did not feel right" and that she regrets it, and then saying she decided in her head that she changed her mind and expressed that change of mind only through "body language" that is open to interpretation, and whammo, some potentially decent human being who was unable to read her mind and her supposed change in body language gets slammed with the R-word. That's nonsense.

Sorry. You can parade all of the social workers in the world through this thread. They're great, but thankfully they're not writing the laws.

 

[Otis]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

That's kind of a prerequisite for communicating with another human being.

In this scenario there was a really easy way for the guy to find out if the girl was consenting before he pushed her down and restrained her to have sex. He could have asked.

Because that's exactly how romance happens in the real world, right?

Hi, do you want to go out to dinner with me?

...

May I kiss you?

...

May I put my hand upon your waist?

...

Would it be alright if I grabbed your behind?

...

Can I now take off your shirt?

...

May I remove your bra?

...

Would it be alright with you if I took your shoes and socks off?

...

Can I remove your pants?

...

Would it be alright if I remove your underwear?

...

May I fondle you?

...

May I touch you, ya know, down there, in an erotic fashion?

...

Is it alright if we have sex now?

...

Now that we are in the position to have sex, may I insert my thing into your virginia?

...

Hey, listen, my thing is halfway into your virginia. May I continue further from here?

I suppose with each successive penetration there should be a consent form broken out and signed? Keep a stack at the bedside.

Man, this is romantic.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

 

[pats3in4]

I get that she could have froze as a survival response. I get that such a response would also create ambiguity with "beyond a reasonable doubt" in a criminal case, especially with all of the other circumstances in this story. I'm taking the OP's recount of the story at face value and believe she was raped. I also believe the guy would never be convicted.

The thought of any of my 3 daughters freezing up in a similar situation, scarred by the memory of such an encounter makes me sick. I want to teach them how to both set and enforce boundaries. Setting is easy ("not tonight"). Enforcing is hard and tests your will on how far you are willing to back up what you say. If enforcing includes both having the confidence to physically resist and successfully do so, I look forward to signing them up for self defense classes if that's what it takes. I just want them to have the tools to make sure they can keep the consent line as clear as possible, no matter how things progress.

 

[comfortably numb]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

That's kind of a prerequisite for communicating with another human being.

In this scenario there was a really easy way for the guy to find out if the girl was consenting before he pushed her down and restrained her to have sex. He could have asked.

Because that's exactly how romance happens in the real world, right?

Hi, do you want to go out to dinner with me?

...

May I kiss you?

...

May I put my hand upon your waist?

...

Would it be alright if I grabbed your behind?

...

Can I now take off your shirt?

...

May I remove your bra?

...

Would it be alright with you if I took your shoes and socks off?

...

Can I remove your pants?

...

Would it be alright if I remove your underwear?

...

May I fondle you?

...

May I touch you, ya know, down there, in an erotic fashion?

...

Is it alright if we have sex now?

...

Now that we are in the position to have sex, may I insert my thing into your virginia?

...

Hey, listen, my thing is halfway into your virginia. May I continue further from here?

I suppose with each successive penetration there should be a consent form broken out and signed? Keep a stack at the bedside.

Man, this is romantic.

Go on...

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Gotta agree with Otis at this point. "Affirmative consent" is the feminist version of "abstinence-only" sex ed in that they both share a completely unrealistic, ideological approach to sex.

 

[dparker713]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

Opportunity, and "I'm sure how this girl I don't know that well and haven't been with intimately before" are't the same thing. You, and a couple of others, seem to feel that the burden is on the girl at that point - after being carried back to a guy's bedroom immediately upon expressing hesitation about it - to make sure she reacts in a predicable way that makes it clear she's not consenting to sex. The way the girls own words about the situation are conveyed to us say she didn't say no or struggle more at that point because she was scared..

Of course the burden is on her at that point. If she has been saying yes all night, is making out with him, is sexually aroused when he picks her up and carries her to his bed, and gets naked? Yes, at that point, if she wants to change her mind, the onus is on her to communicate that. End of story.

If we adopt the line of reasoning some in here propose, every young man is hosed, because all it takes is a girl following through on these facts, later deciding it "did not feel right" and that she regrets it, and then saying she decided in her head that she changed her mind and expressed that change of mind only through "body language" that is open to interpretation, and whammo, some potentially decent human being who was unable to read her mind and her supposed change in body language gets slammed with the R-word. That's nonsense.

Sorry. You can parade all of the social workers in the world through this thread. They're great, but thankfully they're not writing the laws.

Actually, if other places adopt 'yes means yes' then I think the women are all screwed. I'm not sure that I've ever verbalized consent to sex. My brain is hardly functioning at full capacity at that point either.