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Wayne Gretzky vs. Mario Lemieux (1 Viewer)

Who was the better all-time player?

  • Wayne Gretzky

    Votes: 18 90.0%

  • Mario Lemieux

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • Total voters
    20
maxwelledison said:
This debate will never be settled but it is still fun to have.Wayne's stats cannot be measured. He is by far the most dominant statistical player of all time, arguably in any sport, and there is no taking that away from him. More importantly, he truly revolutionized the game; before Wayne, forwards rarely, if ever, considered curling back to the blue line as they rushed into the offensive zone to hit a streaking winger on the other side of the ice while the defenseman (or men) awkwardly moved in no man's land, covering neither Gretzky nor the streaking winger (Orr opened the door to this but Wayne kicked it down). That play was exploited for everything it was worth and is pretty much dead now except on off-angle odd-man rushes or in rare circumstances by special players (i.e., Crosby et al). This is just one example of how Gretzky altered offensive philosophy - and this is a separate thread in itself - but he truly changed the way the game was conceived. Before Wayne, most great players were known for their goal scoring prowess. After Wayne, passing became the truly great player's calling card. Even without his video game numbers he would be on the short list for greatest ever for this accomplishment. That said, anyone following the NHL over the past 30 years knows the greatest changes n the game occurred between approx. 1987 and 1997. In addition to better training (the quality of play from 1980 to even 1990 is grossly improved and noticeable even to the casual observer), the influx of great European players, bigger goaltending equipment and sophisticated defensive adjustments to the style Gretzky largely introduced, further expansion led to "clutching and grabbing". This defensive "tactic" is sometimes confused with the Trap, which is a legitimate defensive style, because it is often employed by teams of limited talent that also used the Trap. However, the clutch and grab differs because it allows lesser players to compete with guys they have no business being on the ice with because refs are reluctant to call 20 penalties a game. This is the era Lemieux played his prime in and what led him to call the NHL a "garage league" in the 90s. Basically, Mario really had only 5-6 years of what we know as 80s hockey. By contrast, by that time Wayne had already put up his sick numbers and was aging gracefully.My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.
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I might not agree with your final summation, but that was a well-thought out and written post. Kudos for bringing some great insight to the convo! :goodposting: ;)
 
maxwelledison said:
My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.
Click to expand...
excellent post. thanks for writing that.
 
This has been one of the better poll debates in some time here. See Ghost Rider, this poll IS NOT meaningless.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
guru_007 said:
Copeman said:
Gretzky was more of a playmaker, Mario more of a scorer.
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imo, this is a total misconception based on the very limited coverage hockey had in the beginning of Gretzky's career and the fact most people remember the last 6-7 years of Gretzky's career more so than the beginning.Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer in NHL history.From the beginning of his NHL career, Gretzky scored at least 50 goals, in his first 8 years, including seasons of 92, 71, 87 & 73 (that was in a 4-year stretch no less).Lemieux scored at least 50 goals 6 times in his career and only broke 70 goals once.No one was more of a scorer than Gretzky.
Click to expand...
goals per game data suggests otherwise
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You just won't let that flimsy argument go, will you? You continue to ignore the fact that Gretzky played nearly six more full seasons than Mario, and that Gretzky's goal-scoring really tailed off in his mid to late 30s, thus, dragging his overall goals scored per game average down. But hey, whatever fits your argument! ;) :o
Click to expand...
Wait a second...You use Gretzky's longevity as one of the reasons that he is the greatest, but then also use it as an excuse of why his goals per game average drops. 'whatever fits your argument' is right
 
Copeman said:
This has been one of the better poll debates in some time here. See Ghost Rider, this poll IS NOT meaningless.
Click to expand...
I stand corrected. :)
igbomb said:
Wait a second...You use Gretzky's longevity as one of the reasons that he is the greatest, but then also use it as an excuse of why his goals per game average drops. 'whatever fits your argument' is right
Click to expand...
Uh, I think you missed my point. The longevity argument was in reference to his prime starting earlier normal since it was said that hockey players usually enter their prime around the age of 24, but Gretzky was already in his prime at the start of his NHL career. I used that as an argument that it is not fair to compare the numbers of Gretzky and Mario from ages 24-32 because several of Wayne's best seasons are left out, since some of his best seasons were early on (heck, he set the goals in a season record in his 3rd NHL season). And the other point was that he wasn't nearly as much of a goal-scorer later in his career, which caused his overall goals per game average to drop a bit (it dropped .13 over the last six seasons he played), but he was still a top playmaker (see: him leading the league in assists two of this last three seasons).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
maxwelledison said:
My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.
Click to expand...
Gretzky was a faster skater, though Mario was certainly more powerful. But where Gretzky blews everyone away is his hockey IQ. Mario could do things physically (when he was healthy) that Wayne could only dream of, but no player on the ice has ever understood the game as well as Gretzky. That combined with his speed made him the most devastating force the game has ever seen.
 
maxwelledison said:
My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.
Click to expand...
nice post. I don't agree with a bit of it, but it was well put.One thing that I will say is that you say you've been watching hockey for 30 years. That is about the same amount of time I've watched hockey too. How many more times in their prime would you say you watched Mario vs. Wayne? I remember the early mid '80's. I lived in NY. I got to watch Gretzky about 4 times/year and two of those times were 9:30 starts and as I was only about 10 years old, well, I didn't get to watch too much of that. I think that a lot of perception is by what you have seen and I can't believe anyone that watched the two players play in their primes (Gretzky let's say 79 -86 and Lemieux, well, by the mid to late '80s ESPN and cable televison was a lost more prevalent, so cherry pick any of his years) can say Mario beats Wayne in every category except vision and passing. I just don't think that's the case :help: And to say it was a perfect storm of teammates well, I think you forget who Lemieux played with too. It's not like he was out there by himself each shift, there were all-star caliber players on the Penguins besides Lemieux (Jagr, Francis, Nedved, Sandstrom, Cullen, Rechi, Coffey, Joe Mullen, Kevin Stevens (pre-crack))
 
Hoart Petterson said:
Notorious T.R.E. said:
Hoart Petterson said:
Notorious T.R.E. said:
Who is firing up the new Hockey WIS League? Hoart?
Click to expand...
I'm banned from WIS. Sent them a profane laced tirade after Malowned didn't win The Cup.
Click to expand...
Let me know which email address to send my strongly worded email to.I'm going to count you as IN for now...
Click to expand...
jmartinez@wissports.com
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He's still there? He must have some dirt on the ownership.
 
WhatIfSports.com, Inc. webmaster@WhatIfSports.com

P.O. Box 43494

Cincinnati, OH 05243

US

513-333-0313

Looks like we can send Shuke after them.

 
dparker713 said:
maxwelledison said:
My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.
Click to expand...
Gretzky was a faster skater, though Mario was certainly more powerful. But where Gretzky blews everyone away is his hockey IQ. Mario could do things physically (when he was healthy) that Wayne could only dream of, but no player on the ice has ever understood the game as well as Gretzky. That combined with his speed made him the most devastating force the game has ever seen.
Click to expand...
This is not correct. One of the greatest misconceptions out there is that Gretzky was very fast. He wasn't. In fact, he was probably the third best skater on that team on his best nights (Coffey and Messier being 1 and 2). I agree with you on the hockey IQ (Wayne was the best- I categorized this as "vision" ) but he wasn't that far ahead of Mario even on that point.
 
maxwelledison said:
dparker713 said:
maxwelledison said:
My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.
Click to expand...
Gretzky was a faster skater, though Mario was certainly more powerful. But where Gretzky blews everyone away is his hockey IQ. Mario could do things physically (when he was healthy) that Wayne could only dream of, but no player on the ice has ever understood the game as well as Gretzky. That combined with his speed made him the most devastating force the game has ever seen.
Click to expand...
This is not correct. One of the greatest misconceptions out there is that Gretzky was very fast. He wasn't. In fact, he was probably the third best skater on that team on his best nights (Coffey and Messier being 1 and 2). I agree with you on the hockey IQ (Wayne was the best- I categorized this as "vision" ) but he wasn't that far ahead of Mario even on that point.
Click to expand...
I said he was faster than Mario, not the fastest in the league or even his team. Also, that team was filled with great skaters and if you were making a top 10 skaters in the league they'd have gotten several people on the list.
 
guru_007 said:
maxwelledison said:
My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.
Click to expand...
nice post. I don't agree with a bit of it, but it was well put.One thing that I will say is that you say you've been watching hockey for 30 years. That is about the same amount of time I've watched hockey too. How many more times in their prime would you say you watched Mario vs. Wayne? I remember the early mid '80's. I lived in NY. I got to watch Gretzky about 4 times/year and two of those times were 9:30 starts and as I was only about 10 years old, well, I didn't get to watch too much of that. I think that a lot of perception is by what you have seen and I can't believe anyone that watched the two players play in their primes (Gretzky let's say 79 -86 and Lemieux, well, by the mid to late '80s ESPN and cable televison was a lost more prevalent, so cherry pick any of his years) can say Mario beats Wayne in every category except vision and passing. I just don't think that's the case :lmao: And to say it was a perfect storm of teammates well, I think you forget who Lemieux played with too. It's not like he was out there by himself each shift, there were all-star caliber players on the Penguins besides Lemieux (Jagr, Francis, Nedved, Sandstrom, Cullen, Rechi, Coffey, Joe Mullen, Kevin Stevens (pre-crack))
Click to expand...
Well, you are entitled to your opinion but I think even Gretzky would (and has) said that Mario was the more talented player. As to size, strength, speed, power, balance (Wayne was not a particularly strong skater), hands, one-on-one ability and shot it is not even close (in Mario's favor). Passing is close but let's give the edge to Wayne. IQ is Wayne's but Mario is probably second all-time and the disparity is not great. Scotty Bowman called Mario the best defensive forward he ever saw. As to your point about teammates, Francis is one of the most underrated players of all time but he was 28 when he joined the Pens. Joe Mullen was 33 when he came on. Coffey's best years were definitely in Edmonton. Jagr didn't really come into his own until later and likely did so because of Lemiuex's mentoring. Recchi is good but probably not a HOFer and if he gets in it will be based on longevity. The rest of those guys are nice players but not HOFers and it is impossible to determine what they would have been without Mario. Gretzky had Messier, Coffey, Kurri, Glenn Anderson (clutch) and Fuhr- all in the Hall and in their prime when they played in Edmonton. Not to mention complementary players like Lowe, MacTavish and Huddy that were very good but didn't put up numbers. That Edmonton team one another Cup after Gretzky left and he never won without them.
 
dparker713 said:
maxwelledison said:
dparker713 said:
maxwelledison said:
My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.
Click to expand...
Gretzky was a faster skater, though Mario was certainly more powerful. But where Gretzky blews everyone away is his hockey IQ. Mario could do things physically (when he was healthy) that Wayne could only dream of, but no player on the ice has ever understood the game as well as Gretzky. That combined with his speed made him the most devastating force the game has ever seen.
Click to expand...
This is not correct. One of the greatest misconceptions out there is that Gretzky was very fast. He wasn't. In fact, he was probably the third best skater on that team on his best nights (Coffey and Messier being 1 and 2). I agree with you on the hockey IQ (Wayne was the best- I categorized this as "vision" ) but he wasn't that far ahead of Mario even on that point.
Click to expand...
I said he was faster than Mario, not the fastest in the league or even his team. Also, that team was filled with great skaters and if you were making a top 10 skaters in the league they'd have gotten several people on the list.
Click to expand...
You are wrong either way. Mario would leave Wayne in the dust in a head-to-head race. If Mario didn't look like he was moving quickly to you it is because he was 6'5".
 
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