We’re More Alike Than You Think (1 Viewer)

[GroveDiesel]

I legitimately believe that this may be one of the most important things you ever read on this forum.

It’s a study done by Beyond Conflict to determine both how divided we are politically, and how divided we THINK we are.

Their findings are pretty stark. We have a lot more in common with each other than we think, but our PERCEPTION of how the other side views us is way off. The consequences of this are grave as this perception gap is likely a big part in fueling the polarization and dislike in politics and this country. It is critical for our nation’s future to close this perception gap and embrace what we have in common, and the first step in doing so is realizing that this gap exists and understanding how the other side truly feels. Empathy and an open mind is truly needed here.

Yes, there are difference in beliefs, but the gaps aren’t nearly as big or as extreme as we think they are.

 Americans incorrectly believe that members of the other party dehumanize, dislike, and disagree with them about twice as much as they actually do. In short, we believe we’re more polarized than we really are—and that misperception can drive us even further apart. The divide is correlated with outcomes that are consequential for democracy and represent a new degree of toxic polarization in America.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Here’s an additional project with the same conclusions. Some very interesting takeaways here: (ugh, messed up the quotes).

The Perception Gap study builds on these insights. It finds that the most partisan, politically active Americans – a group we call the “Wings” – have deeply distorted perceptions of the other side. The two groups with the widest Perception Gaps are the Progressive Activists and the Devoted Conservatives—the most ideological and committed groups of Democrats and Republicans. 

And which is the most accurate segment? Surprisingly, it’s the Politically Disengaged. They are fully three times more accurate in their estimates of political opponents than members of either of these Wing groups. The V-shaped Perception Gap shows that the less invested you are in politics today, the less distorted your perception of politics.

 
 You might think that people who regularly read the news are more informed about their political opponents. In fact, the opposite is the case. We found that the more news people consumed, the larger their Perception Gap. People who said they read the news “most of the time” were nearly three times more distorted in their perceptions than those who said they read the news “only now and then.”

 Why do Democrats, as they become more educated, have a wider Perception Gap? The evidence suggests that it’s likely because they have fewer Republican friends. Highly educated Democrats are the most likely to say that “most of my friends” share their political beliefs. The same is not true of Republicans – more educated Republicans report having about as many Democrat friends as less educated Republicans. And Democrats whose friends are similar to them politically have a significantly wider Perception Gap than those with more political diversity in their friendship groups.

 First, only 26% of American report sharing social media posts about politics. Second, these Americans have higher Perception Gaps than the national average. While those who do not post on social media have an average Perception Gap of 18, those who do post on social media have an average Perception Gap of 29. The political content we see on social media is therefore disproportionately from people with a more distorted understanding of the other side, further adding to the problem.

 
Each of us can play a role in bridging the Perception Gap. We can choose a wider range of news sources to better understand different perspectives. We can refuse to be manipulated into outrage by reducing our exposure to social media feeds that amplify the views of the partisan Wings, rather than the Exhausted Majority. And finally, we can seek to build connections with people who think differently from us. Directly engaging with people whose experiences and views differ from our own makes it harder for us to see them as the enemy. 

But individual action will likely not be enough. Civility alone will not resolve our disagreements or overcome the deep challenges that we need to address. That is because our analysis reveals a powerful polarization ecosystem that thrives off of outrage and division. Traditional media, social media platforms, friend networks, political candidates and consultants benefit from dividing Americans, exaggerating disagreements and inciting conflict. These forces of division must be held to account. In their place, we need to galvanize a larger ecosystem of local and national solutions that can bring us together and address the causes of our division.
Those last 2 paragraphs are the most important. It’s clearly critical that we do what we can do individually to erase the perception gap that each of us holds. But just as importantly, we need to tear down the echo chambers and platforms that are fueling this perception gap and hostility. It’s time to treat them for what they are: enemies of democracy and enemies of our great nation. It’s time to call them all out for what they are and starve the beast by refusing to give them clicks, our time, and our money.

 

[Captain Cranks]

I legitimately believe that this may be one of the most important things you ever read on this forum.

It’s a study done by Beyond Conflict to determine both how divided we are politically, and how divided we THINK we are.

Their findings are pretty stark. We have a lot more in common with each other than we think, but our PERCEPTION of how the other side views us is way off. The consequences of this are grave as this perception gap is likely a big part in fueling the polarization and dislike in politics and this country. It is critical for our nation’s future to close this perception gap and embrace what we have in common, and the first step in doing so is realizing that this gap exists and understanding how the other side truly feels. Empathy and an open mind is truly needed here.

Yes, there are difference in beliefs, but the gaps aren’t nearly as big or as extreme as we think they are.

This is absolutely true, but media, politicians,and foreign adversaries are incentivized to drive a wedge between us.  The more polarized we are, the better.  While it would be nice to believe society will learn to be more empathetic and open minded, the more likely scenario is that one side wins and the other dies slowly while kicking and screaming.   

 

[Bucsfan5493]

Abolishing the two party system would do so much to help the division in the country. At the end of the day, the majority of Americans have the same end goal and just want to do what’s best for the country and all people. The problem is we only have two options to choose to lead us and people end up picking a side and it turns into tribalism. The saddest part about it is that a lot of people don’t even like either side, they’re simply just choosing what they think is the best of the worst. There needs to more options.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

And which is the most accurate segment? Surprisingly, it’s the Politically Disengaged.

To me this suggests an inherent conflict between the societal interest in having people politically engaged and the interest in reducing polarization.

 

[wikkidpissah]

for the first 40 years of my political discourse, i was known for saying that i believed that the vast majority of Americans were conservative til their own were taken care of, then as liberal as they could afford to be. havent said that in a decade and i know why - y'all have NO idea how much in your head anymore has been marketed into it. 99 & 44/100% pure - not an insidious plan, but more a snowball effect. being marketed to is fun and has a compelling internal logic. and that aint an OKBoomer thing - i'm talking the vast majority of my peeps too, only some of us were sharp or weird enough early enough to have been able to stay clear of the cliff. it's apparent that my gen was the last of the TV generation with members able to stay immune. THAT'S the cleanse everybody's gotta go on - it's personal, moral, vital - else we crash.

 

[huthut]

for the first 40 years of my political discourse, i was known for saying that i believed that the vast majority of Americans were conservative til their own were taken care of, then as liberal as they could afford to be. havent said that in a decade and i know why - y'all have NO idea how much in your head anymore has been marketed into it. 99 & 44/100% pure - not an insidious plan, but more a snowball effect. being marketed to is fun and has a compelling internal logic. and that aint an OKBoomer thing - i'm talking the vast majority of my peeps too, only some of us were sharp or weird enough early enough to have been able to stay clear of the cliff. it's apparent that my gen was the last of the TV generation with members able to stay immune. THAT'S the cleanse everybody's gotta go on - it's personal, moral, vital - else we crash.

???

I don't follow.

 

[pollardsvision]

Not related to the article, but on the the topic that we're more alike than different.

 

[wikkidpissah]

???

I don't follow.

approx how old are you?

ETA: i may be able to save time on this. i can confidently state that, if you are white and born since 1975, your reactive range is not your own. '65-'75 depends on your life circumstances, but seriously inclined toward same. i was a psychiatric professional during the time media became the abiding factor in child-rearing and i presently lifecoach a couple dozen folks online and this is my conclusion. i'm not going to spend a lot of time defending it here because i'll be pretty much alone on my side and i'm telling virtually the entire membership of FFA that their reactive range is more programmed than genuine, but i feel obligated to notify y'all of how deadly sure i am of this hypothesis

 

[pollardsvision]

The regulars at my restaurant are all between 65-80. There's definitely something different when they discuss politics compared to the young bucks. And they do a lot (well, from what I remember). 

I'm talking a mix of white and black dudes that grew up during some very turbulent times. I'm 41, and it would just amaze me how, after everything they've been through, they just talk and argue and give each other ####, and nobody would ever get butthurt. It gets heated and they disagree, but they listen. They may remain unconvinced, but they listen to each other. And when it's over, one may pay for the other. Hell, a lot of them go out drinking when they leave our place.

I have no idea why it's different. I'm just young dip####. I always felt like it was just because they went through so much crazy horrible #### already that whatever the young folks are freaking out about just didn't seem as big of a deal to them. 

Of course, I wouldn't know why, but as you mention the media and all the corporate bull#### my generation has had pumped into our brains, it makes sense.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Of course we are.

The top 1-2% of the wealthiest of wealthy benefit From all this division. They take abortion on one side and guns on the other side and say “you 98-99% go fight now”. Because if the 98-99% got together to vote in their best interest the top wealthiest percentage wouldn’t benefit as much.

They’ve gotten extremely good at this. 

 

[GroveDiesel]

The regulars at my restaurant are all between 65-80. There's definitely something different when they discuss politics compared to the young bucks. And they do a lot (well, from what I remember). 

I'm talking a mix of white and black dudes that grew up during some very turbulent times. I'm 41, and it would just amaze me how, after everything they've been through, they just talk and argue and give each other ####, and nobody would ever get butthurt. It gets heated and they disagree, but they listen. They may remain unconvinced, but they listen to each other. And when it's over, one may pay for the other. Hell, a lot of them go out drinking when they leave our place.

I have no idea why it's different. I'm just young dip####. I always felt like it was just because they went through so much crazy horrible #### already that whatever the young folks are freaking out about just didn't seem as big of a deal to them. 

Of course, I wouldn't know why, but as you mention the media and all the corporate bull#### my generation has had pumped into our brains, it makes sense.

I’m not entirely sure this is the case as a rule though. I know my aunt in her 70s is all aboard the Trump train. And that video that President Trump retweeted yesterday had a WHOLE lot of elderly folks from both sides of the aisle acting like real jerks. 

 

[djmich]

I’m not entirely sure this is the case as a rule though. I know my aunt in her 70s is all aboard the Trump train. And that video that President Trump retweeted yesterday had a WHOLE lot of elderly folks from both sides of the aisle acting like real jerks. 

I don’t think he was saying that they weren’t on “trains”...but that they could have civil discourse.

Im sure old folks are on the Biden train too?

 

[djmich]

approx how old are you?

ETA: i may be able to save time on this. i can confidently state that, if you are white and born since 1975, your reactive range is not your own. '65-'75 depends on your life circumstances, but seriously inclined toward same. i was a psychiatric professional during the time media became the abiding factor in child-rearing and i presently lifecoach a couple dozen folks online and this is my conclusion. i'm not going to spend a lot of time defending it here because i'll be pretty much alone on my side and i'm telling virtually the entire membership of FFA that their reactive range is more programmed than genuine, but i feel obligated to notify y'all of how deadly sure i am of this hypothesis

I’m not totally following but feel like I should be insulted

 

[GroveDiesel]

I don’t think he was saying that they weren’t on “trains”...but that they could have civil discourse.

Im sure old folks are on the Biden train too?

I probably should have been more clear: my aunt is not capable of rational thought when it comes to politics. She has firmly bought into all of Trump’s BS and views all of politics as “us” versus “them”. Anyone that supports Trump is a good guy and any Democrat or someone who speaks against Trump is the enemy.

And the video that Trump re-tweeted made it exceptionally clear that many elderly folks have no ability to discuss politics rationally or civilly either.

I would bet that the elderly that aren’t as technologically inclined and who don’t watch cable are much more civil than the ones that are retired and spend all day on the internet and/or watching cable news. So maybe there is truth that those in their 80s or 90s who likely don’t do much of that are much more civil than those in their late 60s or 70s who probably are more likely to do both of those things.

 

[Doug B]

ETA: i may be able to save time on this. i can confidently state that, if you are white and born since 1975, your reactive range is not your own. '65-'75 depends on your life circumstances, but seriously inclined toward same. i was a psychiatric professional during the time media became the abiding factor in child-rearing and i presently lifecoach a couple dozen folks online and this is my conclusion. i'm not going to spend a lot of time defending it here because i'll be pretty much alone on my side and i'm telling virtually the entire membership of FFA that their reactive range is more programmed than genuine, but i feel obligated to notify y'all of how deadly sure i am of this hypothesis

Wikkid, what is "reactive range"? Can this post be recast in non-professional, plain-spoken-to-non-experts style?

I Googled "reactive range" to make sure it wasn't a common concept to which I just missed exposure. I found references to "reaction range", but that didn't quite seem to fit where you seem to be going.

When you wrote "if you are white and born since 1975, your reactive range is not your own" ... were you basically saying that "marketers/advertisers/entertainers/etc. have shaped your psyches far more than any other entities, even and especially your immediate families"? That "without" has had WAY more swat in developing human minds than "within" over the last few decades?

 

[wikkidpissah]

Wikkid, what is "reactive range"? Can this post be recast in non-professional, plain-spoken-to-non-experts style?

I Googled "reactive range" to make sure it wasn't a common concept to which I just missed exposure. I found references to "reaction range", but that didn't quite seem to fit where you seem to be going.

When you wrote "if you are white and born since 1975, your reactive range is not your own" ... were you basically saying that "marketers/advertisers/entertainers/etc. have shaped your psyches far more than any other entities, even and especially your immediate families"? That "without" has had WAY more swat in developing human minds than "within" over the last few decades?

i'm losing my relevance, Doug.

in many ways, i'm fine with that. i'm old. i'm not very plugged in.

but, in the 20 or so years since my wife died i've spent most of my time & talent on understanding human happiness and i see society moving beyond my ability to reach them before i'm able to broadcast my findings. i thought this might be a good way to grab some attention, even though my proofs arent nearly up to snuff yet.

for now, i'll address the statement you highlighted. there are basically two people inside of us - our reactive selves and our generative selves. one responds to life, the other gathers the responses of others and ourselves and tries to make something of it. the latter has always gotten short shrift, first because we had a common mythology with pretty specific rules and, now, because after only a couple of generations of being able to freely ask our own questions, society (esp commerce) is flowcharting all possible answers and monetizing them within a re-mythologizing of life. it has stunted the development of our generative selves while barely out of its infancy and i believe that to be a dreadful phenomenon, so i'm barking about it while anybody might be listening.

to answer your question, "reactive range" is indeed my own term. gaming, mostly poker, was my living for 25 years and determining an opponent's "betting range" is a key factor in beating him. in the old days, players were either "loose" or "tight" but, ever since no-limit & pot-limit became the most popular forms, if a player doesnt ask himself precisely the range of hands an opponent could have each time he acts, there is no way one's play can keep up with the competition.

so i had "range" in my toolbox when i first started my work on human happiness. interacting with friends, clients, forumers, etc i have noticed the range of reaction to the days' issues & events to have become steadily more limited since 9/11. in the Trump Era, that's become almost cartoonish, on both sides. i have tried to reverse engineer the phenomenon in the last couple of years and believe mass communication has flattened our curve. in crisis, flattening a curve is good tertiary medicine. in growth, the opposite is so. i think i can make the case for how art, education & media has corralled & codified our dreams, archetypes, hopes & fears and our institutions have learned to use them to excite in order to sell us things and limit our perspective in order to limit their exposure. i'll expand as i can if i decide to explore all this on these pages but, if free thought becomes the ##### of instant gratification to the point that we end up 'sim'ing more than living our lives, the Blinding Age ahead could be bleaker than the Dark Age whence we came.

 

[Doug B]

i have noticed the range of reaction to the days' issues & events to have become steadily more limited since 9/11. in the Trump Era, that's become almost cartoonish, on both sides.

Agree with this part a lot -- the death of nuance, the dissolution of the gray area.

You've given the house plenty to chew on in this thread.

 

[Manster]

The biggest disconnect is city dwelling progressives, and how they view middle America.  

 

[Herb]

The biggest disconnect is city dwelling progressives, and how they view middle America.  

Urbane progressives (especially on the coasts) in many cases absolutely do dismiss rural and Middle America. It's unfortunate and ignorant. 

But the reverse is also true. There is no lack of disdain from the rural/mid-American contingent toward educated city-dwellers (especially on the coasts).

Neither group is the hero or the villain. Both groups mostly want the same things. We just aren't conditioned to realize it. 

 

[rcam]

I legitimately believe that this may be one of the most important things you ever read on this forum.

It’s a study done by Beyond Conflict to determine both how divided we are politically, and how divided we THINK we are.

Their findings are pretty stark. We have a lot more in common with each other than we think, but our PERCEPTION of how the other side views us is way off. The consequences of this are grave as this perception gap is likely a big part in fueling the polarization and dislike in politics and this country. It is critical for our nation’s future to close this perception gap and embrace what we have in common, and the first step in doing so is realizing that this gap exists and understanding how the other side truly feels. Empathy and an open mind is truly needed here.

Yes, there are difference in beliefs, but the gaps aren’t nearly as big or as extreme as we think they are.

Meh, when 35-45% of the population still supports Trump that is enough for me to know that we aren't anything alike. At least, not in any way that truly matters. I might be able to talk about their kid's baseball game or something but beyond that - nothing. This COVID19 stuff has brought a lot of the "hidden" thoughts to the surface. Lost respect for a ton of neighbors and a few family members as their true colors are shown. 

 

[by_the_sea_wannabe]

Meh, when 35-45% of the population still supports Trump that is enough for me to know that we aren't anything alike. At least, not in any way that truly matters. I might be able to talk about their kid's baseball game or something but beyond that - nothing. This COVID19 stuff has brought a lot of the "hidden" thoughts to the surface. Lost respect for a ton of neighbors and a few family members as their true colors are shown. 

Which is why I'm glad I have better democrat friends/family in my life than people like you. We can disagree and not have such a disgusting outlook of each other.

 

[Bucsfan5493]

Meh, when 35-45% of the population still supports Trump that is enough for me to know that we aren't anything alike. At least, not in any way that truly matters. I might be able to talk about their kid's baseball game or something but beyond that - nothing. This COVID19 stuff has brought a lot of the "hidden" thoughts to the surface. Lost respect for a ton of neighbors and a few family members as their true colors are shown. 

Important to note that not all Trump supporters are like this. 

My girlfriends parents are Trump supporters who wear masks every time they go out and have been about as cautious as anyone I know since this started.

Have another 2 friends who are Trump supporters and they’ve taken it pretty seriously as well and worn masks.

 

[sho nuff]

Important to note that not all Trump supporters are like this. 

My girlfriends parents are Trump supporters who wear masks every time they go out and have been about as cautious as anyone I know since this started.

Have another 2 friends who are Trump supporters and they’ve taken it pretty seriously as well and worn masks.

Sure...but they support Trump still...and will excuse things like his handling of this pandemic...excuse and write off the reports of Russia paying off hits on our soldiers...excuse any number of things.  Things that should disgust just about everyone...that is where I agree its hard to look at think we are more alike.  I can agree with the sentiment to an extent...but when I see any number of comments here and comments to stories...the percentage that are nowhere near alike may appear higher at this moment than ever before.  With a percentage still holding on calling Trump the best ever.  There is a disconnect there that seems way too wide.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Sure...but they support Trump still...and will excuse things like his handling of this pandemic...excuse and write off the reports of Russia paying off hits on our soldiers...excuse any number of things.  Things that should disgust just about everyone...that is where I agree its hard to look at think we are more alike.  I can agree with the sentiment to an extent...but when I see any number of comments here and comments to stories...the percentage that are nowhere near alike may appear higher at this moment than ever before.  With a percentage still holding on calling Trump the best ever.  There is a disconnect there that seems way too wide.

Biden supporters excuse the fact he likes to handsy with girls and creepy with old ladies.   You know some of the crap you guys rail on Trump about.  You're a whole lot more alike than you want to admit.   And you're just as dug into your position that your side is great and the other side is totally at fault as the Trump guys you're talking about.  Two peas in a pod.

 

[rcam]

Which is why I'm glad I have better democrat friends/family in my life than people like you. We can disagree and not have such a disgusting outlook of each other.

Not a red/blue thing. It is a Trump/not Trump thing. While, admittedly there is a lot of overlap between red/Trump there is a far cry between debating the merits of various taxation systems and debating whether or not Trump is good for this country. 

 

[rcam]

Biden supporters excuse the fact he likes to handsy with girls and creepy with old ladies.   You know some of the crap you guys rail on Trump about.  You're a whole lot more alike than you want to admit.   And you're just as dug into your position that your side is great and the other side is totally at fault as the Trump guys you're talking about.  Two peas in a pod.

Sorry - not even close to the same thing. Even if Biden is handsy - he isn't braggy sexual assaulty combined with a bit of creepy incesty. Biden also, AFAIK, didn't cheat on every one of his wives - much less with a porn star while his wife was pregnant or just had his kid - and then paid her off illegally. Dems treat that sort of behavior a little more critically than Reps it seems... just ask John Edwards, or Anthony Weiner, or even Al Franken.

 

[Bucsfan5493]

Sure...but they support Trump still...and will excuse things like his handling of this pandemic...excuse and write off the reports of Russia paying off hits on our soldiers...excuse any number of things.  Things that should disgust just about everyone...that is where I agree its hard to look at think we are more alike.  I can agree with the sentiment to an extent...but when I see any number of comments here and comments to stories...the percentage that are nowhere near alike may appear higher at this moment than ever before.  With a percentage still holding on calling Trump the best ever.  There is a disconnect there that seems way too wide.

The thing is not all Trump supporters love the guy. Some simply just think the Democrats are awful and that they have no other choice, some think that his policies are good and keeps his promises, etc. I’ve heard a number of time from Trump supporters that they don’t like how he talks and what he says, but at the end of the day he gets #### done and produces. I obviously strongly disagree with it, but I know people who feel this way. Democrats have also done their fair share of overlooking bad people too. I don’t think anyone to Trump’s extent but still, they are far from perfect.

I can agree with you on people who love Trump and don’t see a problem with his behavior. I think at that point it just comes down to morals and how you view what is right and wrong. There are countless of incidents from Trump that are indefensible and if someone can’t acknowledge that he is an awful and divisive person, then yes they’re probably far apart in how they’re programmed compared to most people.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I agree with the general sentiment in that if you got 100 people together face to face to talk about things we might realize that we are not that far off in the sense the we just want what is best for the country and for our family.   I think if we could do that more, there would be more agreement on things and more compromise.  

Unfortunately, that is not our reality.  Our reality is that too many spend a high % of time on social media, YouTube rabbit holes, and clicking on other sites that whose purpose is to give us the things that anger us because that is what keeps us clicking and staying on that site.   All those systems seem to work best when there is division in the country and make us more and more convinced that the other side is dumb or evil and that the small % of loudest nut jobs on the sites are what truly represent what the masses feel.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

 In short, we believe we’re more polarized than we really are—and that misperception can drive us even further apart.

I heard a guy named Hawk Newsome who is with BLM the other night, on Fox (Chris Wallace), and it struck me how much he sounded like Trump supporters.

 

[dkp993]

You're a whole lot more alike than you want to admit.   And you're just as dug into your position that your side is great and the other side is totally at fault as the Trump guys you're talking about.  Two peas in a pod.

This needs to be pinned at the top of this forum.   The extreme-ism on both ends is out of control.  

 

[MAC_32]

I’m not entirely sure this is the case as a rule though. I know my aunt in her 70s is all aboard the Trump train. And that video that President Trump retweeted yesterday had a WHOLE lot of elderly folks from both sides of the aisle acting like real jerks. 

There are always going to be anecdotal exceptions to every rule. My experiences with some in older generations leave me skeptical about @wikkidpissah's hypothesis. They're as polarizing as anyone. The loud ones anyway. That generation is the one most likely to get hoodwinked by something in any media. 

I'm not disagreeing with him about my generation though. At least the loudest voices within it. We do the same thing they do - read something we want to believe to be true then proceed as if it is, whether it is or isn't. And that's where my hypothesis stems from. Volume. Both from a quantity and decibel perspective. The loud ones are entrenched in their corner. Their choice of media feeds them. They parrot what's fed to them that aligns with their bias and vet what doesn't. Then they yell over top of each other.

I think there are a lot of people that don't fit that profile - in every generation. It's the bubble I've insolated myself in. I venture out from it on occasion, but most times I determine it isn't worth my time nor energy. Cause, sure, there are some exceptions to my bubble, but I generally don't engage in anything politics related with them and I limit my exposure to them. They're a stressor and we all have enough stressors in our lives. But I have a lot of good, healthy conversations with those left of me - and right. But like me, most of those people are not loud. They're only willing to devote so much time & energy into anything politics. They' spend more time listening than talking. Their opinions are informed ones. They can adapt with new information. And they're generally intolerant of the intolerance that permeats from the loudest bubbles. We're not a profitable demo though. So our voice is mute. 

 

[rustycolts]

The regulars at my restaurant are all between 65-80. There's definitely something different when they discuss politics compared to the young bucks. And they do a lot (well, from what I remember). 

I'm talking a mix of white and black dudes that grew up during some very turbulent times. I'm 41, and it would just amaze me how, after everything they've been through, they just talk and argue and give each other ####, and nobody would ever get butthurt. It gets heated and they disagree, but they listen. They may remain unconvinced, but they listen to each other. And when it's over, one may pay for the other. Hell, a lot of them go out drinking when they leave our place.

I have no idea why it's different. I'm just young dip####. I always felt like it was just because they went through so much crazy horrible #### already that whatever the young folks are freaking out about just didn't seem as big of a deal to them. 

Of course, I wouldn't know why, but as you mention the media and all the corporate bull#### my generation has had pumped into our brains, it makes sense.

I think part of the reason folks my age and older can discuss politics without animosity is because of what you stated above. It's also the reason some of us are so surprised and shocked by all the unrest going on today. I think we thought we had come a long long way towards race relations.

We grew up when there were colored drinking fountains. Black folks couldn't shop, dine or stay overnight where whites did. Those were awful times. We lived thru the race riots of the late 60s, the demonstrations for peace during Viet Nam which often got violent. We watched the National Guard shoot and kill students.

So folks like me thought things had gotten 100% better. I hope that we all can come together and try to solve the problems we have now and live peacefully with one another. What we need right now is a modern day MLK to try and bring us all together.

 

[sho nuff]

The thing is not all Trump supporters love the guy. Some simply just think the Democrats are awful and that they have no other choice, some think that his policies are good and keeps his promises, etc. I’ve heard a number of time from Trump supporters that they don’t like how he talks and what he says, but at the end of the day he gets #### done and produces. I obviously strongly disagree with it, but I know people who feel this way. Democrats have also done their fair share of overlooking bad people too. I don’t think anyone to Trump’s extent but still, they are far from perfect.

I can agree with you on people who love Trump and don’t see a problem with his behavior. I think at that point it just comes down to morals and how you view what is right and wrong. There are countless of incidents from Trump that are indefensible and if someone can’t acknowledge that he is an awful and divisive person, then yes they’re probably far apart in how they’re programmed compared to most people.

Id agree there are some who don't...the most vocal though...they are all in on Trump.  And personally some are people I would have never thought to buy into such things or defend such things.

 

[sho nuff]

This needs to be pinned at the top of this forum.   The extreme-ism on both ends is out of control.  

Maybe...though, it made no sense as I have never claimed "my side" is great and the other totally at fault. 

 

[wikkidpissah]

That generation is the one most likely to get hoodwinked by something in any media. 

Fine point. Depending of the nature of the construct, though, who's to say that savvy is smarter than naivete in reaction to it? Not labeling anything, but being able to deftly navigate a foam pit may not be the skill the master considers it to be.

 

[Hov34]

You're a whole lot more alike than you want to admit.   And you're just as dug into your position that your side is great and the other side is totally at fault as the Trump guys you're talking about.  Two peas in a pod.

This needs to be pinned at the top of this forum.   The extreme-ism on both ends is out of control.  

It comes down to the fact we only have 2 choices and neither side is brave enough to vote for or champion a 3rd or fringe party for fear of losing.

We are a two choice society - either Like or Dislike - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down.

 

[dkp993]

It comes down to the fact we only have 2 choices and neither side is brave enough to vote for or champion a 3rd or fringe party for fear of losing.

We are a two choice society - either Like or Dislike - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down.

I’m 100% voting 3rd party regardless of the name on the ballot.  But I’m also in the position of knowing my vote for either R or D means nothing (live in Cali) so I would not consider myself “brave”.  

 

[MAC_32]

Fine point. Depending of the nature of the construct, though, who's to say that savvy is smarter than naivete in reaction to it? Not labeling anything, but being able to deftly navigate a foam pit may not be the skill the master considers it to be.

Some are, some aren't. I don't think there's anything unique about it. Social media just offers a larger platform for the dumb to expose themselves, young and old. When the old were young they didn't have something like that. It doesn't mean them then are tangibly different than them now. Our access to information now  and ability to message spread vs in prior generations is crazy. The problem is what users actually do with that information - then the corresponding message spread. How it's deployed in our 'react to me' soundbite driven profit oriented media. 

There are some great critical thinkers now just as there were then and anytime in between. It's just harder to hear us now because the dumb now have an insurmountably large megaphone.

 

[wikkidpissah]

Some are, some aren't. I don't think there's anything unique about it. Social media just offers a larger platform for the dumb to expose themselves, young and old. When the old were young they didn't have something like that. It doesn't mean them then are tangibly different than them now. Our access to information now  and ability to message spread vs in prior generations is crazy. The problem is what users actually do with that information - then the corresponding message spread. How it's deployed in our 'react to me' soundbite driven profit oriented media. 

There are some great critical thinkers now just as there were then and anytime in between. It's just harder to hear us now because the dumb now have an insurmountably large megaphone.

lay some science on us then, brother

 

[Gr00vus]

@wikkidpissah (I think) is talking about how through technological advances in the communication domain, we've been shifting our focus to be primarily on the short term, and that shift has been increasing in velocity rapidly over a small increment of time (60 years or so) as those advances have also increased in velocity. We haven't had time to adapt psychologically, at least not most of us. Some among us have figured out how to leverage that to their own purposes (mostly increasing personal wealth and power), and the rest of us have just been driven along.

Also, Wikkid specifically mentions advertising/marketing, how it has become interwoven in our passive intake of media of all sorts and our environment (take a look around at any non-residential city block and note the ads per square foot). How that has led to us not thinking for ourselves very much, how we don't really give free range to our own imaginations, creativity, etc. - it's all guided by someone else if we engage in it at all anymore.

Unless you make a deliberate conscious effort to disengage and carve out space for your own thought - we're pretty much in constant state of distraction these days. Powers that be use that to drive us in directions that benefit themselves, packaged in ways that are convenient or pleasing in some way to us short term, so we let it happen, and we drift into conflict manufactured by somebody else because that's easier short term than continuously working to maintain our own perspective, our own reasons, our own nuance, our own understanding, etc.

 

[wikkidpissah]

Unless you make a deliberate conscious effort to disengage and carve out space for your own thought - we're pretty much in constant state of distraction these days. Powers that be use that to drive us in directions that benefit themselves, packaged in ways that are convenient or pleasing in some way to us short term, so we let it happen, and we drift into conflict manufactured by somebody else because that's easier short term than continuously working to maintain our own perspective, our own reasons, our own nuance, our own understanding, etc.

this

 

[wikkidpissah]

@wikkidpissah (I think) is talking about how through technological advances in the communication domain, we've been shifting our focus to be primarily on the short term, and that shift has been increasing in velocity rapidly over a small increment of time (60 years or so) as those advances have also increased in velocity. We haven't had time to adapt psychologically, at least not most of us. Some among us have figured out how to leverage that to their own purposes (mostly increasing personal wealth and power), and the rest of us have just been driven along.

Also, Wikkid specifically mentions advertising/marketing, how it has become interwoven in our passive intake of media of all sorts and our environment (take a look around at any non-residential city block and note the ads per square foot). How that has led to us not thinking for ourselves very much, how we don't really give free range to our own imaginations, creativity, etc. - it's all guided by someone else if we engage in it at all anymore.

Unless you make a deliberate conscious effort to disengage and carve out space for your own thought - we're pretty much in constant state of distraction these days. Powers that be use that to drive us in directions that benefit themselves, packaged in ways that are convenient or pleasing in some way to us short term, so we let it happen, and we drift into conflict manufactured by somebody else because that's easier short term than continuously working to maintain our own perspective, our own reasons, our own nuance, our own understanding, etc.

but marketing is a small and late portion of the phenomenon. as i said in my first post in this thread, this was not an insidious plan but a snowball effect. the initial factor was a combination of indulgent/over-compensating Silent/Boomer fathers, women's ascendancy in the home & workplace and psychologically-specific children's programming coming along right at the time the television was playing an increasing role in child development. next was the splintering of the home by work/divorce which increased kids' "dirty access" capacity by a factor of 10+ AND fed the bitterness from being bounced between homes & such. then, a new brand of filmmakers (a lot of whom had minors in psych cuz it was the next easiest course of study to communications) came into their own and onto unprecedented success by using their Jungian understanding of archetypes to create memorable heroes, villains & action. THEN, 24-hour television came along and yaddayaddayadda....

 

[Gr00vus]

but marketing is a small and late portion of the phenomenon. as i said in my first post in this thread, this was not an insidious plan but a snowball effect. the initial factor was a combination of indulgent/over-compensating Silent/Boomer fathers, women's ascendancy in the home & workplace and psychologically-specific children's programming coming along right at the time the television was playing an increasing role in child development. next was the splintering of the home by work/divorce which increased kids' "dirty access" capacity by a factor of 10+ AND fed the bitterness from being bounced between homes & such. then, a new brand of filmmakers (a lot of whom had minors in psych cuz it was the next easiest course of study to communications) came into their own and onto unprecedented success by using their Jungian understanding of archetypes to create memorable heroes, villains & action. THEN, 24-hour television came along and yaddayaddayadda....

The bolded is a probably better turn of phrase than my use of "velocity." I don't think there was a focused effort to get us on the path we're on, but lots of initially seemingly unrelated developments put us on it. And now that we've been on it a while, those so motivated have turned the patterns that have resulted to their benefit. The rest of us mainly live within the guilded cages provided (or in many cases, non-guilded cages), we get enough short term pleasure out of the arrangement not to work harder to escape. And those of us who recognize this and still don't work to escape or become committed manipulators, we get depression.

 

[wikkidpissah]

The bolded is a probably better turn of phrase than my use of "velocity." I don't think there was a focused effort to get us on the path we're on, but lots of initially seemingly unrelated developments put us on it. And now that we've been on it a while, those so motivated have turned the patterns that have resulted to their benefit. The rest of us mainly live within the guilded cages provided (or in many cases, non-guilded cages), we get enough short term pleasure out of the arrangement not to work harder to escape. And those of us who recognize this and still don't work to escape or become committed manipulators, we get depression.

velocity was a fine word, more violent than momentum.

a decade ago, i was warning FFAppers (i remember a Tarantino thread) that they were beginning to pay the price for having taken seriously that which was meant ironically or playfully by deconstructionist Boomers (from Stern to Lucas). guys my size dont live past 70 so, in the next coupla years, i'll be interviewing people to make elegant-but-earnest nyaahnyaahs for me in 2030.

 

[Gr00vus]

velocity was a fine word, more violent than momentum.

a decade ago, i was warning FFAppers (i remember a Tarantino thread) that they were beginning to pay the price for having taken seriously that which was meant ironically or playfully by deconstructionist Boomers (from Stern to Lucas). guys my size dont live past 70 so, in the next coupla years, i'll be interviewing people to make elegant-but-earnest nyaahnyaahs for me in 2030.

One of my favorite examples of this is the movie Fight Club. I've come to really dislike that film as a result (and also because the underlying premise is idiotic).

 

[MAC_32]

Unless you make a deliberate conscious effort to disengage and carve out space for your own thought - we're pretty much in constant state of distraction these days. Powers that be use that to drive us in directions that benefit themselves, packaged in ways that are convenient or pleasing in some way to us short term, so we let it happen, and we drift into conflict manufactured by somebody else because that's easier short term than continuously working to maintain our own perspective, our own reasons, our own nuance, our own understanding, etc.

Right, we agree (I think). Where I'm not making the connection is where he thinks older generations have developed an immunity to this. Unless I misunderstood his original point. All age demos are effected by this. Unless they're aware of it and make decisions to combat it.

 

[wikkidpissah]

One of my favorite examples of this is the movie Fight Club. I've come to really dislike that film as a result (and also because the underlying premise is idiotic).

cant say i enjoyed it, but Fight Club was extraordinarily useful to me. i avoided it for years and was embarrassed that i knew little about "my" kids except that they found Conan OBrien and South Park funny and i didnt. after FC, i understood the difference between their rage and mine (and it's ALL about rage) a lot better. for all its faults & hysteria, i dont know of a more zeitgeisty flick

 

[wikkidpissah]

Right, we agree (I think). Where I'm not making the connection is where he thinks older generations have developed an immunity to this. Unless I misunderstood his original point. All age demos are effected by this. Unless they're aware of it and make decisions to combat it.

and that aint an OKBoomer thing - i'm talking the vast majority of my peeps too, only some of us were sharp or weird enough early enough to have been able to stay clear of the cliff.

my gen didnt have targeted media in our childhoods (there were children's shows, but no educational programming) nor the "necessity" of being a consumer, especially among the counterculture, of future gens, which gave us the last chance to keep our heads above the flood, but we were generally the same suckers as everybody else

 

[Doug B]

Also, Wikkid specifically mentions advertising/marketing, how it has become interwoven in our passive intake of media of all sorts and our environment (take a look around at any non-residential city block and note the ads per square foot). How that has led to us not thinking for ourselves very much, how we don't really give free range to our own imaginations, creativity, etc. - it's all guided by someone else if we engage in it at all anymore.

Unless you make a deliberate conscious effort to disengage and carve out space for your own thought - we're pretty much in constant state of distraction these days. ...

From Face Scanning To Targeted Ads, Minority Report's Future Isn't Sci-Fi Anymore (NBC News, 10/1/2018)