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No.Doesn’t a “Wealth Tax” attempt to address the thing Buffett was talking about?
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No.Doesn’t a “Wealth Tax” attempt to address the thing Buffett was talking about?
Why not? Are you against any idea that attempts to address this?
We are giving him an interest free loan to endlessly accumulate wealth. Other sources of growth to your personal wealth are taxed as you earn them.He would pay tax when he sold it on his own on the gain. Why remove his incentive in the company and force a sale before he decides on his own.
ETA - There are also a ton of private companies. Where it is not so easy to sell. See my posts earlier why this whole idea is idiotic.
He is taxed on his equity when he sells it, either at short or long term gains taxation rates. So his wealth accumulation is taxed when he sells stocks at 23.8% at minimum. Jon's statement that they never pay taxes on their business ownership is, frankly, ludicrous. The only way to get around that (besides the standard deduction) is to donate the stock. Which is something every American can do. And, BTW, he does this a lot - it's what makes Bill the greatest philanthropist in American history. IMO private giving to charity is way, way more effective and efficient than giving to the feds.ETA - Clearly, this should be obvious but he is taxed on the sale of equity and when he dies.
So you think capital holdings should be marked to market and taxed every year. This is an idea that's been around for a while and recently pushed by Ron Wyden.We are giving him an interest free loan to endlessly accumulate wealth. Other sources of growth to your personal wealth are taxed as you earn them.
LOL, we are giving a loan. What money did we give him that he needs to pay back.We are giving him an interest free loan to endlessly accumulate wealth. Other sources of growth to your personal wealth are taxed as you earn them.
Oh quit that. Dont be childishWhy not? Are you against any idea that attempts to address this?
I'm against a wealth tax. Why do I have to repeat this over and over and over? Its really simple. The thread is about a wealth tax. I'm against a wealth tax. Ok?I was asking your opinion.
He is taxed on his equity when he sells it, either at short or long term gains taxation rates. So his wealth accumulation is taxed when he sells stocks at 23.8% at minimum. Jon's statement that they never pay taxes on their business ownership is, frankly, ludicrous. The only way to get around that (besides the standard deduction) is to donate the stock. Which is something every American can do. And, BTW, he does this a lot - it's what makes Bill the greatest philanthropist in American history. IMO private giving to charity is way, way more effective and efficient than giving to the feds.
So you think capital holdings should be marked to market and taxed every year. This is an idea that's been around for a while and recently pushed by Ron Wyden.
Jon, this is easily the worst idea on taxation I've ever heard. You want to destroy small business ownership? Want to demolish investment in risk assets and in savings? Yeah, do this.
I’m not reading through the entire thread. Just being lazy.I'm against a wealth tax. Why do I have to repeat this over and over and over? Its really simple. The thread is about a wealth tax. I'm against a wealth tax. Ok?
I am not going to get into the argument of benefits of the stock market but I can definitely see the argument of removing the beneficial tax treat of long-term gains income (short term gains are already taxed at ordinary income tax rate). That income is received at the time of sale. However, I don't see how you can be taxing someone during the period of time they hold the securities.I don't know how to do it - but I think there should be a distinction between capital invested into a business, and gains made in the stock market.
By this I mean - there is a legitimate reason to incentivize business investment - improving plant & equipment, investing in R&D - these all add to the productivity of a business, and as a rule we should encourage that.
On the other hand, if I buy Apple stock today - I am effectively just gambling. I am not contributing to increased productivity, I am simply gambling that Apple's stock price will rise over whatever my investment horizon might be. I should not get preferential tax treatment on those gains (or losses). Sure, I provide a modicum of value in terms of liquidity in the market - but that is not enough benefit to justify preferential tax treatment.
So, I would keep rules in place for stock that is purchased directly from the company - i.e. the company now has more money to invest - whether that is the original owner who has shares, early investors, IPOs, or other debt or equity issuing from a company. But, for a typical shareholder, who buys stock on an exchange, I would tax gains as ordinary income. I have not given much thought on the idea of an annual mark-to-market day - that seems like a recordkeeping nightmare, or simply taxing gains when actually realized.
I used to buy businesses - most, if not all, were privately held. If we start with a rough definition of the value of a company as the present value of future income, then its not too hard.As both a business owner and a CPA I'd be interested to hear how someone would go about valuing a privately held company.
For background, I worked in as a financial analyst in charge of acquisitions for a Fortune 500 company for a period of time. I used to run financial models trying to establish businesses' values and their future cash flows and what we could fairly pay for them. Most times, not all, these were privately held companies, sometimes small family run businesses. But there were some larger ones as well, including one public that I had some experience with.I used to buy businesses - most, if not all, were privately held. If we start with a rough definition of the value of a company as the present value of future income, then its not too hard.
From an accounting perspective, I imagine it would be fairly easy to pick a multiple on EBITDA and assign that value. The multiple could vary by industry, and obviously such a valuation would hurt some owners, and benefit some owners. But, in terms of the mechanics, I think it would be fairly straight-forward. The accounting is already done - from there you are just plugging in some numbers into a formula.
Of course, if you want to dig deeper in the weeds, and a closely-held company has undergone a few rounds of financing, those capital injections would have an implicit value of the company built in.
Note - this is not an endorsement of actually doing that - just a fairly straightforward look at how you might do that.
I think part of the issue is the sense of "fairness"For background, I worked in as a financial analyst in charge of acquisitions for a Fortune 500 company for a period of time. I used to run financial models trying to establish businesses' values and their future cash flows and what we could fairly pay for them. Most times, not all, these were privately held companies, sometimes small family run businesses. But there were some larger ones as well, including one public that I had some experience with.
Every industry is different, and every business is different, I agree with that. But I don't think there would ever be a way to do it fairly. I know when I started my business, I was constantly in debt. My profitability was good but I was in a heavily capital intensive business. I was borrowing money each year to finance inventory. There were some years of strong earnings but from a cash flow standpoint we would be underwater most of the year due to seasonal inventory. Had I had more access to capital, I could have made more. My point on this would be in a similar situation however you value a new company like this, even if it's profitable, capital is king. You'd be taking capital out of that owner's hands to where his profitability and growth is handicapped. Not every business would be the same, year 3 of my business we were constantly in debt, stringing together cash as best we could, yet were profitable. Another less capital intensive business with the same NOI wouldn't have near the constraints on capital and their growth wouldn't be as encumbered by such a tax.
All the above is just to say there are so many variables and unique qualities to each business, a standard formula to derive it would be a horrible way to do it. There is no easy/fair way. We had a complicated model that a MIT grad who was our CIO developed to begin each analysis, but that was more to calculate our cost of capital, IRR hurdles, those type things. Having done this type of work and owned a business as well, i wouldn't be able to suggest a formulaic solution to this that would even be close to fair. It's not meant to take a shot at anyone who were to try, I just don't believe it could be done in a sensible fashion.
Interesting. Everyone has a different way of doing it. We went to the extreme of 30 years worth of future cash flows including capital additions, depreciation, related taxes, overhead, fringe benefits, you name it. Granted, 30 years projections can be quite subjective. The sales of course always ended up fat to make them look good. But these were huge undertakings for larger companies and in our case, you couldn't take it to the President of your division, much less the CFO unless it was in that model and related reports were generated showing a one page summary of all the projected financial data.I think part of the issue is the sense of "fairness"
I don't know that it truly exists, nor that it is what we should strive for - being that it is ever elusive. People argue the current rules are unfair.
What you want is consistency, and rules that you know and can plan for.
Side note - after I started in the M&A department I was given a rather rudimentary spreadsheet to be used in valuing businesses - it was two pages, probably no more than 50 lines of data total, and only two cells could be edited. I was a newly minted MBA, and something of an excel guru, and so for my first business where I was the lead, I was looking at a small company worth about $30M, and I set out to create a new spreadsheet, with all kinds of bells and whistle, and contingencies and variance analysis built in. You could change all kinds of realistic assumptions that were relevant to this particular business. I figured this was the best model going, and would be used in all future deals.
So, I go to pitch the deal to the President, and I show him my fancy new spreadsheet, with all the bells and whistles, and he smiles, and said "this looks really good! But, where is the normal spreadsheet? I can't use this in front of the board." I was a little dejected at first - and convinced I was right, until he explained why my spreadsheet was "wrong".
In the end - all the cells you change when making projections and assumptions are just guesses. Educated guesses in many places, but guesses nonetheless. In the original spreadsheet, the only cells you could change were - projected revenue growth rate, and projected expense growth rate. (I said two cells, but I think you could adjust the individual growth over 5 years, and the terminal growth rate). Then, you had two pages to write up the story on how the business meets those growth rates. The board would either buy your story - and projections - or not. They had neither the time, nor the inclination to change a bunch of cells in a spreadsheet to account for every possible outcome. They might change the revenue/expense growth rates to something they were comfortable with - and then authorize a purchase on that valuation - but that was as far as they would go.
I used that rudimentary spreadsheet on deals as small as $30M, and and big as $3.2B.
So - you can absolutely value businesses based on a formula - and in a macro sense, it would be as accurate as any CPA-driven valuation that looks at each business uniquely. As i said originally, it will help some owners, and hurt some owners. In that regard its not much different than existing tax laws - some benefit, some do not.
So the hedge funds and venture capitalists (and their rich clients) who get a crack at companies pre IPO get the bonus tax treatment but us regular Joes who buy over the counter get the tax shaft?So, I would keep rules in place for stock that is purchased directly from the company - i.e. the company now has more money to invest - whether that is the original owner who has shares, early investors, IPOs, or other debt or equity issuing from a company. But, for a typical shareholder, who buys stock on an exchange, I would tax gains as ordinary income.
Interesting. Studies done of analysts predicting future cash flows of Dow 30 size companies show that they are, on average, incredibly inaccurate. Active mutual fund managers do the same thing and try to pick out winning stocks by valuing companies and their future growth. And yet they are soundly trounced year after year by passive indexes.I used to buy businesses - most, if not all, were privately held. If we start with a rough definition of the value of a company as the present value of future income, then its not too hard.
If it all went to zero a carry forward isnt very helpful.Yes. It would be like a net operating loss which could be carried back three years and then forward.
It can offset other income.If it all went to zero a carry forward isnt very helpful.
What other income? I mean, as you said all Bill was paying taxes on was a meager salary from a now shuttered company.It can offset other income.
They cheap, rob and steal with impunity. Pay off policy and law makers with the wealth they stole to influence policy and ensure no prosecution and have the poorest Americans fighting for them to not pay taxes while we can't even provide basic needs/rights. Not sure who that says more about. But I am not crying for billionaires, screw that.They wont fix the debt no matter how many taxes get passed. They will just spend more. My new philosophy on government spending is that as long as i get mine lets do it!
if I told you 10% of your income isn't important - what would you say? i'd bet you'd argue with me ..... because 10% is VERY important to you, isn't it ?That’s crazy talk. No way someone living paycheck to paycheck views 10% income tax the same as a six figure earner.
And I’m not sure most people live within their means either.
Any other income, past, present, future. If he made 10 billion in 2008 and 2009 and the lost it all in 2011, he modifies his previous years returns and gets a refund.What other income? I mean, as you said all Bill was paying taxes on was a meager salary from a now shuttered company.
10% for my wife and I is not nearly as important to 10% for the couple making 30k-100k a year. Not even remotely.Stealthycat said:if I told you 10% of your income isn't important - what would you say? i'd bet you'd argue with me ..... because 10% is VERY important to you, isn't it ?
Actually the opposite is true. At least according to the Cato institute.Absolutely not. As others have said, when we pay more, they just spend more.
Not anymore, no more NOL carry back with the new tax law. Carry forwards are limited to 80% of current year income as well.jon_mx said:Any other income, past, present, future. If he made 10 billion in 2008 and 2009 and the lost it all in 2011, he modifies his previous years returns and gets a refund.
IMO, using such a formula for a wealth tax would not account for the value of assets held in a business. If 2 manufacturers have identical cash flow but one leases its facility and the other owns its facility free of debt, they would not be worth the same.Sinn Fein said:So - you can absolutely value businesses based on a formula - and in a macro sense, it would be as accurate as any CPA-driven valuation that looks at each business uniquely. As i said originally, it will help some owners, and hurt some owners. In that regard its not much different than existing tax laws - some benefit, some do not.
You’d be incorrect. I’ve effectively cut my pay 25% by working part time the last several years, largely because I value my time far more than extra $.Stealthycat said:if I told you 10% of your income isn't important - what would you say? i'd bet you'd argue with me ..... because 10% is VERY important to you, isn't it ?
This guy gets it. Once you pay for the essentials, save some for retirement and spend a little for entertainment, the extra cash isn’t particularly important.10% for my wife and I is not nearly as important to 10% for the couple making 30k-100k a year. Not even remotely.
How do you know what’s important to someone else?10% for my wife and I is not nearly as important to 10% for the couple making 30k-100k a year. Not even remotely.
Maybe necessary is a better word than important.How do you know what’s important to someone else?
Okay. How can you tell someone else what’s necessary? If someone likes to travel and live an expensive lifestyle and they work hard to do that then that’s their businessMaybe necessary is a better word than important.
However, there are far better arguments to make regarding a wealth tax than "10% is as important to a millionaire as it is to a minimum wage worker".
Necessary as paying for food and shelter and warmth. But you know exactly what we are talking aboutOkay. How can you tell someone else what’s necessary? If someone likes to travel and live an expensive lifestyle and they work hard to do that then that’s their business
What if they don’t work hard?Okay. How can you tell someone else what’s necessary? If someone likes to travel and live an expensive lifestyle and they work hard to do that then that’s their business
Things beyond necessities are none of the governments business. The goalposts are all over the place hereNecessary as paying for food and shelter and warmth. But you know exactly what we are talking about
Good point. It’s nobody’s business to tell anyone if 10% would affect them. They can make their own choices regardless of how they got that moneyWhat if they don’t work hard?
And along comes the Trump and the damn Republicans...You either want to fix the debt or you don't. The fix will only come at the expense of the richest.
No need to listen to the political right on debt or taxes anymore. They flatly lied about the myriad of consequences for the past 50 years.
Treasury Dept rolling back tax rule aimed at keeping business from moving money offshores to avoid taxes.
https://twitter.com/bpolitics/status/1181654534109765640?s=21
I think it could be "made" to be constitutional. I don;t see that being a stumbling block. Pushing back by other candidates might be bad politics, as it might be seen or presented as being in bed with the uber wealthy....And it seems the hatred for those with means in this country is accelerating daily.This was again brought up in the debate this week and not a single mention of if it is constitutional or not.
Andrew Yang at least pointed out it's failure in other countries.
Some candidates (Liz) keep pushing it as an answer to all our problems and there seems to be little push back from moderators, the press or other candidates.
What are you going to do? Impose the tax on the states in proportion to each state's population. You can't have direct taxes other than income taxes which the 16th amendment changed to say you could have an income tax. It actually is not a very broad amendment.I think it could be "made" to be constitutional. I don;t see that being a stumbling block. Pushing back by other candidates might be bad politics, as it might be seen or presented as being in bed with the uber wealthy....And it seems the hatred for those with means in this country is accelerating daily.
Good question. Now you have me curious and a googlin' I shall go.What are you going to do? Impose the tax on the states in proportion to each state's population. You can't have direct taxes other than income taxes which the 16th amendment change to say you could have an income tax. It actually is not a very broad amendment.
Late to the party but interesting thoughts. I guess I always attacked it as we need to increase the wealthy's marginal propensity to consume which would stimulate the economy and then you'd see the trickle down. And hopefully the increased consumption by the wealthy would allow for the less wealthy to increase their propensity to save. In my opinion, the biggest factor to this wealth inequality is unequal capital. So I think there has to be a way to redistribute the capital. It is also why I'm in favor of an estate tax of some sort.In general, a tax on savings shifts behavior from savings to consumption.
If we're talking about a 2% tax on someone who already has $50 million, the effect may be negligible. But it could certainly affect whether people decide to save that much in the first place. I suppose then the public policy question becomes whether we want them to save that much. Savings = investment = stuff like making capital expenditures in factories, or making loans. Consumption = yacht maintenance, etc. The economy needs both (since they depend on each other). But as a public policy matter, if we want to promote economic equality, I think equality in consumption matters a lot more than equality in net-worth-on-paper. I therefore do not want to favor a policy that might cause the super rich to consume even more than they already do. I'd rather cause the super rich to forego extra consumption so that they can make investments that allow others to increase their consumption instead.
But this all gets complicated by what the tax proceeds are used for, etc.
There might be a way to do it that makes sense, and I'm not familiar with the details of Warren's plan.
Yeah, we'd focus on them. But identifying who's in the 75,000 and who's not would require paying attention to far more than 75,000 households.
Every one of those candidates on the stage are in the highest, or maybe second highest income tax bracketsAnd it seems the hatred for those with means in this country is accelerating daily.
I'm not sure of your point hereEvery one of those candidates on the stage are in the highest, or maybe second highest income tax brackets
Do you think they have hatred for themselves?I'm not sure of your point here
What???? Can you argue with someone else PLEASE. I don't want to playDo you think they have hatred for themselves?