What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

We're Missing the Boat on these QBs (1 Viewer)

podunker

Footballguy
I’m ready to take my beating, but I feel like the Shark Pool and fantasy owners in general are really missing the boat on these three Quarterbacks. I’m not saying that these guys should be drafted high in the draft, but they will end up being steals late in the draft and have a very good chance of finishing in the top 12.

1. Vince Young – Currently being drafted in the 11th round, as the 18th or 19th QB off the board. The key with him this year is going to be his new Coach, Offensive Coordinator Mike Heimerdinger. Coach Heimerdinger was the one that made McNair. He was the coordinator for 5 years, from 2000-2004. During that time, the Tenn. Offense averaged 3527 passing yards per year. That’s not just McNair, that includes O’Donnell, and Volek. The later two not near the talent Young is. They were not throwing to stud WR’s either. Mason and Wycheck were the main two, and both good. But the other names, (Dyson, Sanders, McCariens, Calico, and even Bennett) were no better than what they have now. Let’s just look at what McNair did, because I think he compares favorably to Young. From 2000 to 2003, a four year span, he played in 61 games. He averaged over 209 passing yards a game. In 2002 he played all 16 games and had 3387 passing yards and 22 TD’s. Probably his best season. I do think McNair was a better passer than Young is now. However, I think Young is a better runner. With that being said, from 2000-2002, McNair had over 400 yards rushing each year. I think Young can do that much at least. Young has proven himself in the past, he was top 12 in 2006. Owners have soured on him because he or the team didn’t play as well last year. They bring in a stud TE in Crumpler, do you remember how well Wycheck did in that offense? He is being way undervalued also. Lendale will take over the Eddie George role. How can Young not be better? My projections for him right now are: 3100 yds passing, with 17 passing TD’s, and 525 yards rushing with 5 TD’s. Easily putting him in the top 10.

2. Matt Leinart- Currently being drafted in the 12th round, as the 21st QB off the board. This is just a matter of Stats. The Arizona passing attack puts up huge numbers. The three QB’s last year put up 4220 passing yards and 32 TD’s. That’s with Fitz missing 1 game, and Boldin missing 4. I will admit that Warner put up the majority of it, and may indeed be a better QB right now than Leinart. But Coach Whisenhunt knows Leinart is the future, and has given every indication that he is the starter. In June the local newpaper reported that Coach Whisenhunt expressed his desire to do away with the two-quarterback system, and said that Leinart was much further along in the no huddle offense this year. The Arizona Republic reported, “Cardinals HC Ken Whisenhunt said that he doesn't feel as much of a need to run a dual quarterback tandem as compared to last year. QB Matt Leinart has begun to establish himself in the two-minute drill, which would make the need for QB Kurt Warner's presence less necessary. Although Whisenhunt wouldn't rule it out completely. "Last year we did it because we felt it gave us the best chance to win. It wasn't really a thing about who did this better. Obviously, Kurt ran the no huddle better at that time," he said. "But Matt is much further along with it. He was very efficient again today when we ran the two-minute drill. I think that's going to play itself out. I wouldn't say we wouldn't do that, but I don't anticipate “that being a necessity for us this year." Not to mention the Cardinals having been dragging their feet on a contract extension for Warner. Warner is in the last year of his contract. Making me think even more they are convinced that Leinart can run the whole show. Leinart showed me in 2006 that he has the talent to put up the numbers. He threw for 2547 yards and 11 TD’s in just 12 games when he took over for Warner that year. That’s an average of 212 yards a game and almost one TD. Which equates to almost 3400 yards and 16 TD’s for a full 16 games. Warner threw for 3400 yards and 27 TD’s in 14 games last year. The no huddle offense was a big part of his success. With Leinart taking over for good this year, I have him projected for 3600 yards passing and 24 TD’s which makes him a top 10 QB, with some upside in my opinion.

3. Alex Smith – Currently being drafted in the 16th round, as the 25th plus QB taken. My reasoning on him is that I know the 49er QB position is going to put up some great numbers, and I think he will be the QB putting up the numbers. However, go ahead and draft Hill as your last pick if you don’t think Smith is going to win the starting job. I’ve already done this in one league, just to protect myself. It’s not necessarily the QB that is going to make the difference, it’s Martz’s system that is going to help whoever the starter is put up the numbers. First let me talk a little about Smith. Lets look at the QB’s that Martz has had success with. For the most part they are Warner, Bulger, and Kitna. All three were backups at some point in their career and pretty lightly regarded. Unlike Smith who was a No. 1 pick. None of those three have half the athletic ability of Smith. Bulger and Kitna can’t come close to him in arm strength. Warner was the best of the three in my opinion, but he still doesn’t/ or didn’t hold a candle to Smith as far as potential. By all accounts Smith is very smart also, which is going to help him pick up Martz’s system that much faster. (Speaking of systems, how many systems has Smith had to pick up in the last three years? Three I think, so has Smith really been given a fair chance to progress.) If Martz can make fantasy studs out of those three, why can’t he do the same with Smith, who in my opinion has better all around physical skills. Kitna had over 4000 passing yards and 18 TD’s in both years under Martz. Bulger, who I think has the least talent of them all, had over 3900yards/21 TD’s in 14 games in 2004, and over 3800 yards/22 TD’s in 15 games in 2003. Martz is so good a passing coach that he even got Jamie Martin to average 255 yards a game and 7 TD’s during a 5 game stretch in 2002 when Warner and Bulger were hurt. Jamie freakin Martin people. It’s the system, period. Warner’s numbers and accomplishments speak for themselves. And up to this point I think he was the most talented QB to run the system. However, Smith has the potential, and more athletic ability than them all, and could end up being better than Warner when all is said and done. For the Alex Smith naysayers, Hill has to be as good as Jamie Martin doesn’t he? The system will create the numbers no matter who is playing QB. Martz’s system has averaged over 4000 yards passing and 20 plus TD’s for the last six years in a row. It really doesn’t matter what other players are involved as far as WR’s and RB’s are concerned either. With the Rams they had two stud WR’s for the most part and a great/good RB most of the time. On Detroit, they had one legit WR (Roy), one highly toughted rook (Calvin), and two former backups (Furrey, McDonald). Plus, no running game to speak of. What does he have in San Fran? Gore is a legit RB. Davis is a legit TE, and the first stud Martz has had at that position. WR’s Johnson, Bruce, and Battle, not great by any means but still all undervalued this year. They all have to be at least as good as Furrey and McDonald. Hell, Bruce alone kept them two on the bench with the Rams for years. It just doesn’t matter who is catching the ball in this system, it’s still going to be thrown around like a hot potato! I have Smith or the SF QB position conservatively projected for 3700 yards and 18 passing TDs. Not to mention at least 2 easy QB sneak TDs like Bulger used to get every year because the defense was spread out so much. No doubt about the fact that Smith is three times the runner any of Martz’s other QB’s have been. Smith will end up a starting quality fantasy QB with huge upside potential.

Ok, sorry for such a long post. I had thought about not posting this so early in the redraft season because I didn’t want to give anyone else an edge on me. However, I know about 75% of the owners still won’t buy it, and take a QB early in the draft anyway. So what the hell, maybe it will help turn a light bulb on in someone. I’m not saying take two of these three guys and run with it either, although I have in some leagues. But you can’t go wrong with them as a QB2 or QB3. Why not take Leinart in the 12th and follow him up with Warner in the 16th instead of taking your backup TE? Why not take Smith and then take Hill late instead of a second kicker or defense? Let the other owners laugh now, you’ll be the one laughing at the end of the season!

 
:shrug:

I'm not sold on Smith, but the potential is there.

VY or Leinart are players I'm seeking in all leagues this year, only problem with Leinart is the need to get Warner, but you can get your starter very cheap.

 
I only agree with the Leinart/Warner combo because they're the only team that actually has talent. Systems are nice and all but if you don't have the personnel to run them then it doesn't mean much of anything.

 
1 - VY

Those Titans teams saw a lot of passes go Derrick Mason's way. Is there a Derrick Mason in that motley crew of receivers on their roster? McNair actually did worse his first year with Heimerdinger, falling from 20.45 ppg to 13.63 ppg in his first season. In his one year with the Jets, the NY passing totals (which were not great to begin with) also went backwards (although I'm not sure we can pin that on Heimerdinger). VY is probably going a little too late at QB19, but I still don't see him as a fantasy starter this year (maybe next year, but we'll have to see how he does).

2 - Leinart

Leinart better start producimg or he will be on the bench. He is on the hot seat and has a VERY short leash. This is a classic case of the current coaching staff not being the ones that drafted him, so they have no true alliance to playing him. Leinart will start the year as starter because he's the one getting paid big(ger) money, but if he struggles at all, he'll be on the bench. Remember that last year Warner was more productive than Brady was in the last 8 games of the season (2354/21 vs 2375/20).

3 - Smith

I pretty much agree on Smith due to the Martz factor and have been pimping him all off-season. Obviously there are concerns over how well he will do, how good the receiving corps is, whether he he will the starting job, and perhaps most importantly whether the 49ers can pass protect. SF ranked dead last in sacks allowed last season . . . and that's before Martz start implementing his minimimalist blocking patterns. There's not a lot of risk in taking a stab with Smith, but I would definitely have a "Plan B" if that one blows up.

 
I've been saying it for a while and I'll keep saying it: Warner is the guy to have in AZ for '08. Leinart is douching his way out of that starting position. He cannot afford to falter even a little, IMO, since they know how effective Warner is running the offense already.

I don't see Matt lasting the whole year as the starter.

 
All three of these guys have a long way to go before their valuable fantasy QBs. Vince Young ranked 24th out of the 28th QBs to play in 8 games last year; Leinart's average would have put him 27th. I liked both of them in college, and then each would make good pros. At this point, I'd much rather grab Jason Campbell and some lower ranked QBs and spot start them based on SOS.

 
I'll give you credit if they work out because you're right, I'll admit that I'm missing the boat on these guys as fantasy Qb's as I don't like any of them. I don't think A. Smith or Leinert finish the year as the starter. I do think V. Young improves some this year but as a fantasy QB, I just don't like the jump he has to make with the players he has to work with to be a starter on a fantasy team.

 
I agree on 2 and 3

With VY - his upside is Steve McNair in his prime? Unless you're in a deep league, that's not very compelling. 3500 and 22 = meh.

Nice backup or QBBC member, perhaps.

 
1 - VY

Those Titans teams saw a lot of passes go Derrick Mason's way. Is there a Derrick Mason in that motley crew of receivers on their roster? McNair actually did worse his first year with Heimerdinger, falling from 20.45 ppg to 13.63 ppg in his first season. In his one year with the Jets, the NY passing totals (which were not great to begin with) also went backwards (although I'm not sure we can pin that on Heimerdinger). VY is probably going a little too late at QB19, but I still don't see him as a fantasy starter this year (maybe next year, but we'll have to see how he does).
I don't think you can since Pennington and Fiedler were injured by week 4 and the Jets were starting Brooks Bollinger and Vinny Testerverde (after briging him off the couch) for most of the year.
 
Smith is not the QB to own in SF. That would be Hill.
So the guy with the $50 million contract sits on the bench and gets no chance to start?
Hw many chances does he need? This isnt his 1st year. He's been given the chance. And the 49ers want to start winning. It doesnt matter who makes what if you want to win.
IMO, Smith gets first dibs on an OC with a clue. The other OCs pale in comparison to Martz. If they don't want Smith to be the guy, IMO, they would release him, as his contract is way too cumbersome to have as a backup. Maybe that will happen down the road, but it hasn't yet.
 
Smith is not the QB to own in SF. That would be Hill.
So the guy with the $50 million contract sits on the bench and gets no chance to start?
Hw many chances does he need? This isnt his 1st year. He's been given the chance. And the 49ers want to start winning. It doesnt matter who makes what if you want to win.
I agree with Nuts here...Smith has had ample time to prove himself...he will be given another chance under Martz, but Hill was a solid starter to close out the season in 2007. Teams know that sometimes things do not work out...Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, etc...and have to eventually cut their losses and move forward.
 
On Detroit, they had one legit WR (Roy), one highly toughted rook (Calvin), and two former backups (Furrey, McDonald). Plus, no running game to speak of. What does he have in San Fran? Gore is a legit RB. Davis is a legit TE, and the first stud Martz has had at that position. WR’s Johnson, Bruce, and Battle, not great by any means but still all undervalued this year. They all have to be at least as good as Furrey and McDonald. Hell, Bruce alone kept them two on the bench with the Rams for years. It just doesn’t matter who is catching the ball in this system
:confused: Whos fault was it Detroit didn't run the ball?

I'm usually not the one to call someone out on a well thought out post. However, this Martz love has made me sick.

Basically you are saying...It doesn't matter the QB, RBs, or WRs Martz has because it is all the system. Yet Smith will be best QB martz has had because his arm strength, speed and book smarts? The hidden fact here is that Martz owes his success to a man named Orlando Pace. Without a Stud tackle to block the QB blind side, this system is average at best. we saw this when Pace missed time in 02 and the last 2 seasons in Detroit.

The big thing is how well Smith can take a hit. A Martz QB needs to be a tough guy otherwise forget about it. Smith will be hit hard all season. Is he the type of kid that can stand in the pocket and step into throws? Willing to take the big hit? From the limited games I have seen of him, he doesn't strike me as the type.

I'm calling it now. Martz will fail in SF. Sure he might get the team .500, but I'm not expecting much more.

 
Smith is not the QB to own in SF. That would be Hill.
So the guy with the $50 million contract sits on the bench and gets no chance to start?
Hw many chances does he need? This isnt his 1st year. He's been given the chance. And the 49ers want to start winning. It doesnt matter who makes what if you want to win.
I agree with Nuts here...Smith has had ample time to prove himself...he will be given another chance under Martz, but Hill was a solid starter to close out the season in 2007. Teams know that sometimes things do not work out...Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, etc...and have to eventually cut their losses and move forward.
They won't cut Smith any time soon, Hill/Sully have no real experience either. FWIW, I think Smith gets first dibs, fails, Hill takes over and does moderately better. San Fran's 2010 QB isn't on their roster, their 2009 QB might not be either. (I'd like to see Chase Daniel in SF)
 
Nice write-up but I wouldn't take VY or Smith as anything more than a #3 and Leinart only as a #2 behind a solid #1. Too much risk on them IMO.

 
Nice write-up but I wouldn't take VY or Smith as anything more than a #3 and Leinart only as a #2 behind a solid #1. Too much risk on them IMO.
This is why I like Leinart, the risk is very small if you're able to get Warner. When you can take Leinart as QB21 and Warner later (FWIW, I'd go Leinart-Warner B2B even though it's "reaching"), and get QB1 production out of the 12th and 13th round, that's $$$. AND you get the handcuff. You just can't beat that value.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Smith is not the QB to own in SF. That would be Hill.
So the guy with the $50 million contract sits on the bench and gets no chance to start?
Hw many chances does he need? This isnt his 1st year. He's been given the chance. And the 49ers want to start winning. It doesnt matter who makes what if you want to win.
I agree with Nuts here...Smith has had ample time to prove himself...he will be given another chance under Martz, but Hill was a solid starter to close out the season in 2007. Teams know that sometimes things do not work out...Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, etc...and have to eventually cut their losses and move forward.
In fairness, Smith's "chances" haven't exactly been golden opportunities. I have a "chance" to have a romantic evening with Jessica Alba, but c'mon, have you seen me? No WAY that's happening...Smith seems like he has all the talent in the world, but this seems like the first time he has a real chance to succeed. His first full year starting he finished as 19th overall QB, which isn't totally horrible.I'd be willing to take a flyer on him since he has a proven OC and no one really all that great to take his job.Leinart seems like much more of the risk to me and a player I'm generally avoiding. Warner is a proven player and actually had a flat out great season last year. There seems to be plenty of situations where Leinart ends up holding a clipboard while Warner is throwing bombs to those great WRs. I think I'd probably take a shot on Warner before Leinart.With Young, I think he is a safe bet to improve to some degree. He will improve some just from normal development and Alge Crumpler is probably the best receiver that he's ever had to throw to. The offensive line is a little better on paper. The running game should be a little bit better, again on paper. I don't think it would be crazy to see him in the bottom of the top 15.
 
Hill was a solid starter to close out the season in 2007.
If you call averaging 167 yds/gm decent (including games against the #29 and #32 ranked pass defenses), then sure, I'm inclined to agree with you.Up until now, none of the SF QBs have shown themselves to be anything spectacular. Yet we know Martz has turned water into wine in the past. We'll have to wait and see . . .
 
I'd take a chance with VY, but the other two I think are going to be busts. I didn't like the Alex Smith from day 1, and Leinart doesn't seem like he wants to put in the work it takes to be a NFL QB. If Smith plays all 16, I think he fumbles 20 times this year. He had 10 last year.

 
I agree on Vince Young.

The kid can move the chains with either his legs or his arm. He's like a QB3 & RB3 rolled into one. The new additions of pass catchers and coach will only help his chances in the passing game. Don't forget about the addition of their new change of pace/receiving back in Chris Johnson. That kid can fly AND catch. Nothing will help VY's stats more than a couple of 60 yard screen pass TDs. Also, Crumpler is a better receiver than VY's ever had. I see top 12 #'s easily from him.

Leinert and Smith are good longshots to take late as QB3 if they fall. I wouldn't want either as a backup when guys like Delhomme, Garcia & Bulger are available as QB2.

 
If I miss out on the Eli Manning, Cutler, Garrard, etc. tier for my QB2 I will be looking at VY as my backup. I will most likely only wait that long for my backup if I happen to get someone in the Peyton Manning, Brees, etc. tier as my QB1.

I got burned with Lienart last year, and he will most likely not see my Roster. I would consider Warner as a late round stash on my bench type player.

2 years ago I had Smith as a late season wiver wire pickup. Due to injuries, I had to actually play him a couple of games. He didn't light up the scoreboard, but he was serviceable. I would also consider Smith as a late round flyer. I usually only roster 2 QBs, but if value is there for a third, Warner or Smith might be an option. VY is a legit QB2 option.

 
On Detroit, they had one legit WR (Roy), one highly toughted rook (Calvin), and two former backups (Furrey, McDonald). Plus, no running game to speak of. What does he have in San Fran? Gore is a legit RB. Davis is a legit TE, and the first stud Martz has had at that position. WR’s Johnson, Bruce, and Battle, not great by any means but still all undervalued this year. They all have to be at least as good as Furrey and McDonald. Hell, Bruce alone kept them two on the bench with the Rams for years. It just doesn’t matter who is catching the ball in this system
:wub: Whos fault was it Detroit didn't run the ball?

I'm usually not the one to call someone out on a well thought out post. However, this Martz love has made me sick.
amen brutha. He's one of the most overrated OCs ever.
Yet we know Martz has turned water into wine in the past.
Please name one time - and I sure hope the answer doesn't have the word "Rams" in it anywhere. It's not like he took some rag-tag bums and squeezed more out of them than their talent level.Anyway, I will say that Leinert has possibilities, mostly given the offensive talent, but Warner remains a notably superior QB and IMO should be QBing the team. I want a QB2 I know realistically will be the starter beyond any reasonable doubt.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
On Detroit, they had one legit WR (Roy), one highly toughted rook (Calvin), and two former backups (Furrey, McDonald). Plus, no running game to speak of. What does he have in San Fran? Gore is a legit RB. Davis is a legit TE, and the first stud Martz has had at that position. WR’s Johnson, Bruce, and Battle, not great by any means but still all undervalued this year. They all have to be at least as good as Furrey and McDonald. Hell, Bruce alone kept them two on the bench with the Rams for years. It just doesn’t matter who is catching the ball in this system
:kicksrock: Whos fault was it Detroit didn't run the ball?

I'm usually not the one to call someone out on a well thought out post. However, this Martz love has made me sick.
amen brutha. He's one of the most overrated OCs ever.
Yet we know Martz has turned water into wine in the past.
Please name one time - and I sure hope the answer doesn't have the word "Rams" in it anywhere. It's not like he took some rag-tag bums and squeezed more out of them than their talent level.Anyway, I will say that Leinert has possibilities, mostly given the offensive talent, but Warner remains a notably superior QB and IMO should be QBing the team. I want a QB2 I know realistically will be the starter beyond any reasonable doubt.
really? Kurt Warner and Marc Bulger were household name first round picks?
 
On Detroit, they had one legit WR (Roy), one highly toughted rook (Calvin), and two former backups (Furrey, McDonald). Plus, no running game to speak of. What does he have in San Fran? Gore is a legit RB. Davis is a legit TE, and the first stud Martz has had at that position. WR’s Johnson, Bruce, and Battle, not great by any means but still all undervalued this year. They all have to be at least as good as Furrey and McDonald. Hell, Bruce alone kept them two on the bench with the Rams for years. It just doesn’t matter who is catching the ball in this system
:yawn: Whos fault was it Detroit didn't run the ball?

I'm usually not the one to call someone out on a well thought out post. However, this Martz love has made me sick.
amen brutha. He's one of the most overrated OCs ever.
Yet we know Martz has turned water into wine in the past.
Please name one time - and I sure hope the answer doesn't have the word "Rams" in it anywhere. It's not like he took some rag-tag bums and squeezed more out of them than their talent level.Anyway, I will say that Leinert has possibilities, mostly given the offensive talent, but Warner remains a notably superior QB and IMO should be QBing the team. I want a QB2 I know realistically will be the starter beyond any reasonable doubt.
really? Kurt Warner and Marc Bulger were household name first round picks?
Also, for fantasy purposes, he made Kitna a starting quality QB.
 
Please name one time - and I sure hope the answer doesn't have the word "Rams" in it anywhere. It's not like he took some rag-tag bums and squeezed more out of them than their talent level.
Martz has taken nobodies in the past and made then Top 10 QB: Trent Green, Kurt Warner, Marc Bulger, and Jon Kitna were really not much to talk about before Martz got ahold of them. Unless you want to claim that those guys were awesome before.Green had been a back up and in and out of the league for 5 years with a total of 1 pass pre-Martz.Warner was in the Arena LeagueBulger was the 168th pick in the 2000 draft.Kitna was on his 3rd team and hadn't started the two previous seasons. Granted, he had a couple of solid seasons along the way, but on a whole he was no Pyton Manning.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
On Detroit, they had one legit WR (Roy), one highly toughted rook (Calvin), and two former backups (Furrey, McDonald). Plus, no running game to speak of. What does he have in San Fran? Gore is a legit RB. Davis is a legit TE, and the first stud Martz has had at that position. WR’s Johnson, Bruce, and Battle, not great by any means but still all undervalued this year. They all have to be at least as good as Furrey and McDonald. Hell, Bruce alone kept them two on the bench with the Rams for years. It just doesn’t matter who is catching the ball in this system
<_< Whos fault was it Detroit didn't run the ball?

I'm usually not the one to call someone out on a well thought out post. However, this Martz love has made me sick.
amen brutha. He's one of the most overrated OCs ever.
Yet we know Martz has turned water into wine in the past.
Please name one time - and I sure hope the answer doesn't have the word "Rams" in it anywhere. It's not like he took some rag-tag bums and squeezed more out of them than their talent level.Anyway, I will say that Leinert has possibilities, mostly given the offensive talent, but Warner remains a notably superior QB and IMO should be QBing the team. I want a QB2 I know realistically will be the starter beyond any reasonable doubt.
really? Kurt Warner and Marc Bulger were household name first round picks?
Obviously not before he had them, but let's not forget the rest of the team. Give me Faulk, Holt, Bruce, and a good OL, and I just might look like a competent OC too, regardless of my QB.
 
Missed the boat on the one who SHOULD be named here...

JAKE DELHOMME in the 10th.

He's my 2008 QB BOOM pick this season. (thread to follow)

 
Please name one time - and I sure hope the answer doesn't have the word "Rams" in it anywhere. It's not like he took some rag-tag bums and squeezed more out of them than their talent level.
Martz has taken nobodies in the past and made then Top 10 QB: Trent Green, Kurt Warner, Marc Bulger, and Jon Kitna were really not much to talk about before Martz got ahold of them. Unless you want to claim that those guys were awesome before.Green had been a back up and in and out of the league for 5 years with a total of 1 pass pre-Martz.Warner was in the Arena LeagueBulger was the 168th pick in the 2000 draft.Kitna was on his 3rd team and hadn't started the two previous seasons. Granted, he had a couple of solid seasons along the way, but on a whole he was no Pyton Manning.
IMO, the QB argument doesn't hold water when the surrounding talent is all-pro. You just won't find a trio like Faulk, Holt, and Bruce on too many teams, certainly not in San Fran right now. Kitna was no better a QB with Martz than he had been in Cincy, although he threw more. It's not like he turned him into a pro-bowl QB.
 
Hill was a solid starter to close out the season in 2007.
If you call averaging 167 yds/gm decent (including games against the #29 and #32 ranked pass defenses), then sure, I'm inclined to agree with you.Up until now, none of the SF QBs have shown themselves to be anything spectacular. Yet we know Martz has turned water into wine in the past. We'll have to wait and see . . .
I believe the thing that impressed me most about Hill was he completed the season with a 101.3 rating had 501 passing yards, 5 TDs, 1 INT and a rushing TD in just three games...and he had the same players Smith had, who finished the season with a 51.2 passer rating; 914 passing yards, 2 TDs and 4 INTs in six games...Not to mention, Hill played two pretty good defenses, Minnesota and Tampa Bay...I am not saying he will supplant Smith out of the gates, but he has shown his ability to run an offense and if given the opportunity to run the Martz system could be successful...I would not mind him being my #2QB if he is the starter.
 
Missed the boat on the one who SHOULD be named here...JAKE DELHOMME in the 10th.He's my 2008 QB BOOM pick this season. (thread to follow)
I love Delhomme this year...especially as a #2 at worst...having Smith/Muhammad/Hackett as targets and the running game combo of Williams and Stewart...who could ask for more.
 
Hill was a solid starter to close out the season in 2007.
If you call averaging 167 yds/gm decent (including games against the #29 and #32 ranked pass defenses), then sure, I'm inclined to agree with you.Up until now, none of the SF QBs have shown themselves to be anything spectacular. Yet we know Martz has turned water into wine in the past. We'll have to wait and see . . .
I believe the thing that impressed me most about Hill was he completed the season with a 101.3 rating had 501 passing yards, 5 TDs, 1 INT and a rushing TD in just three games...and he had the same players Smith had, who finished the season with a 51.2 passer rating; 914 passing yards, 2 TDs and 4 INTs in six games...Not to mention, Hill played two pretty good defenses, Minnesota and Tampa Bay...I am not saying he will supplant Smith out of the gates, but he has shown his ability to run an offense and if given the opportunity to run the Martz system could be successful...I would not mind him being my #2QB if he is the starter.
To be fair, his game against Minnesota was pretty poor (12 FP), and his game against Tampa Bay came against their B team.
 
I don't like Smith, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that he just turned 24. Having a bad season at age 23 is hardly a death knell for a QB's career.

 
If Alex Smith wins the job, I am interested in him. But I think you have to handcuff him, in case he doesn't win the job.

I'll let someone else steal Leinart. I think he is a stiff.

Young? Well, Yeah, as QB19 or so, I think he is a bit undervalued, if only because you know he ain't losing his job. I'd probably guess he'd finish a bit higher. I think easily inside the top 10 is optimistic, however.

 
I don't like Smith, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that he just turned 24. Having a bad season at age 23 is hardly a death knell for a QB's career.
You're the stat-man, so maybe you can shed some light on this.How many QBs start their career with a 19/31 ratio, 63.5 rating in their first 3 years, and 130 yards per game in their 3rd year, and succeed? (obviously, you'll need to make the #s more wide, but you get the picture)
 
BigRed said:
I want a QB2 I know realistically will be the starter beyond any reasonable doubt.
That's understandable, and in some leagues, I'd agree. But there's nothing wrong with shooting for the moon with your QB2 either, if your #1 is stable. Worst case, you're scrambling for one week, barring injury - but that's why I'd take Warner with Leinart.
 
FUBAR said:
Chase Stuart said:
I don't like Smith, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that he just turned 24. Having a bad season at age 23 is hardly a death knell for a QB's career.
You're the stat-man, so maybe you can shed some light on this.How many QBs start their career with a 19/31 ratio, 63.5 rating in their first 3 years, and 130 yards per game in their 3rd year, and succeed? (obviously, you'll need to make the #s more wide, but you get the picture)
I don't think that really gets the picture. The key with Smith is that he's young. If you look more broadly, how many QBs have been unproductive in the NFL (either because they're not playing football, in college, on an NFL bench, or being a poor starter) at age 23, but turned out to be a good QB before it was all said and done? And the answer to that, I think, is more than enough to write off Smith. We all know about the late bloomers (Gannon, Garrard, Green, etc.), but even someone like Phil Simms didn't start his first NFL game until age 25. Being a bad 23 year old QB is not a damning statement; and when you factor his high pedigree, I think he still deserves the benefit of the doubt.Steve Young didn't have his first non-terrible year until age 26. Vinny Testaverde didn't throw more TDs than INTs any year in his 30s, but had some very good years after that. Troy Aikman was the worst QB in the league until he was 25 years old. A number 1 pick starting off terribly and then turning his career around isn't something unusual.
 
jaybebo said:
David Yudkin said:
jaybebo said:
Hill was a solid starter to close out the season in 2007.
If you call averaging 167 yds/gm decent (including games against the #29 and #32 ranked pass defenses), then sure, I'm inclined to agree with you.Up until now, none of the SF QBs have shown themselves to be anything spectacular. Yet we know Martz has turned water into wine in the past. We'll have to wait and see . . .
I believe the thing that impressed me most about Hill was he completed the season with a 101.3 rating had 501 passing yards, 5 TDs, 1 INT and a rushing TD in just three games...and he had the same players Smith had, who finished the season with a 51.2 passer rating; 914 passing yards, 2 TDs and 4 INTs in six games...Not to mention, Hill played two pretty good defenses, Minnesota and Tampa Bay...I am not saying he will supplant Smith out of the gates, but he has shown his ability to run an offense and if given the opportunity to run the Martz system could be successful...I would not mind him being my #2QB if he is the starter.
Minnesota ranked dead last in pass defense last year.
 
FUBAR said:
IMO, the QB argument doesn't hold water when the surrounding talent is all-pro. You just won't find a trio like Faulk, Holt, and Bruce on too many teams, certainly not in San Fran right now. Kitna was no better a QB with Martz than he had been in Cincy, although he threw more. It's not like he turned him into a pro-bowl QB.
For the purposes of fantasy, Kitna was a was a middle of the road/bottom end QB1 under Martz. Basically ranked in the top five for pass attempts and completions. Back to back 4000 yards seasons, which he had never even come close to before. I'm not sure there was a whole lot of "surrounding talent" there either.Say what you want, but the fact is that the offenses Martz puts together get a lot of passing yards. He has had 4000 yards passers from:- an undrafted career backup (Kitna)- an Arena league and NFL Europe vet (Warner - c'mon has there ever been an Arena league player that made an impact, let alone a QB?)- a 6th round afterthought pick (Bulger - well *almost* 4000 yards, 36 yards short)He even got a bunch of good games out of another undrafted career backup in Jamie Martin.I think you have to give him his due. I doubt there is any coach since the merger that can claim the same types of successes.If nothing else, you know the 49ers are going to throw. Probably a lot. There are indications that Alex Smith is a pretty smart QB (40 on the Wonderlic) so I don't see why Smith couldn't end up as a viable player. Certainly worth a late round flyer, I think.
 
FUBAR said:
Chase Stuart said:
I don't like Smith, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that he just turned 24. Having a bad season at age 23 is hardly a death knell for a QB's career.
You're the stat-man, so maybe you can shed some light on this.How many QBs start their career with a 19/31 ratio, 63.5 rating in their first 3 years, and 130 yards per game in their 3rd year, and succeed? (obviously, you'll need to make the #s more wide, but you get the picture)
I don't think that really gets the picture. The key with Smith is that he's young. If you look more broadly, how many QBs have been unproductive in the NFL (either because they're not playing football, in college, on an NFL bench, or being a poor starter) at age 23, but turned out to be a good QB before it was all said and done? And the answer to that, I think, is more than enough to write off Smith. We all know about the late bloomers (Gannon, Garrard, Green, etc.), but even someone like Phil Simms didn't start his first NFL game until age 25. Being a bad 23 year old QB is not a damning statement; and when you factor his high pedigree, I think he still deserves the benefit of the doubt.Steve Young didn't have his first non-terrible year until age 26. Vinny Testaverde didn't throw more TDs than INTs any year in his 30s, but had some very good years after that. Troy Aikman was the worst QB in the league until he was 25 years old. A number 1 pick starting off terribly and then turning his career around isn't something unusual.
Do you believe that age is more important than years in the NFL and opportunity? How many 23 year-olds have 3 years of opportunity?

How many stud QBs were in college at 23? :lol:

 
FUBAR said:
Chase Stuart said:
I don't like Smith, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that he just turned 24. Having a bad season at age 23 is hardly a death knell for a QB's career.
You're the stat-man, so maybe you can shed some light on this.How many QBs start their career with a 19/31 ratio, 63.5 rating in their first 3 years, and 130 yards per game in their 3rd year, and succeed? (obviously, you'll need to make the #s more wide, but you get the picture)
I don't think that really gets the picture. The key with Smith is that he's young. If you look more broadly, how many QBs have been unproductive in the NFL (either because they're not playing football, in college, on an NFL bench, or being a poor starter) at age 23, but turned out to be a good QB before it was all said and done? And the answer to that, I think, is more than enough to write off Smith. We all know about the late bloomers (Gannon, Garrard, Green, etc.), but even someone like Phil Simms didn't start his first NFL game until age 25. Being a bad 23 year old QB is not a damning statement; and when you factor his high pedigree, I think he still deserves the benefit of the doubt.Steve Young didn't have his first non-terrible year until age 26. Vinny Testaverde didn't throw more TDs than INTs any year in his 30s, but had some very good years after that. Troy Aikman was the worst QB in the league until he was 25 years old. A number 1 pick starting off terribly and then turning his career around isn't something unusual.
Do you believe that age is more important than years in the NFL and opportunity? How many 23 year-olds have 3 years of opportunity?

How many stud QBs were in college at 23? :shrug:
I think a QB that is 21 years old in the NFL has just about no chance of being successful. A QB that's 22 in the NFL has very little chance of being successful, and it's certainly not surprising when a 23 year old QB is bad, too. Donovan McNabb stunk at age 23, and then was great for the remainder of his career. If Alex Smith had simply been held back in high school, and took a little longer in college, we might be saying the same thing about him.When Smith was drafted, we all knew he was too young to succeed right away, and that it make take a few years before he has any value. Seven starts in his age 23 season simply isn't enough for me to write him off.

Alex Smith is a full year younger than Matt Leinart and Vince Young. Basically, last year would be his rookie season if he was Young or Leinart.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
FUBAR said:
IMO, the QB argument doesn't hold water when the surrounding talent is all-pro. You just won't find a trio like Faulk, Holt, and Bruce on too many teams, certainly not in San Fran right now. Kitna was no better a QB with Martz than he had been in Cincy, although he threw more. It's not like he turned him into a pro-bowl QB.
For the purposes of fantasy, Kitna was a was a middle of the road/bottom end QB1 under Martz. Basically ranked in the top five for pass attempts and completions. Back to back 4000 yards seasons, which he had never even come close to before. I'm not sure there was a whole lot of "surrounding talent" there either.Say what you want, but the fact is that the offenses Martz puts together get a lot of passing yards. He has had 4000 yards passers from:- an undrafted career backup (Kitna)- an Arena league and NFL Europe vet (Warner - c'mon has there ever been an Arena league player that made an impact, let alone a QB?)- a 6th round afterthought pick (Bulger - well *almost* 4000 yards, 36 yards short)He even got a bunch of good games out of another undrafted career backup in Jamie Martin.I think you have to give him his due. I doubt there is any coach since the merger that can claim the same types of successes.If nothing else, you know the 49ers are going to throw. Probably a lot. There are indications that Alex Smith is a pretty smart QB (40 on the Wonderlic) so I don't see why Smith couldn't end up as a viable player. Certainly worth a late round flyer, I think.
Sure, he's worth a late flier, I even took him in a mock here. Nobody's questioning that (I think).People go to the QB to make their point with Martz, and how he turns nobodies into studs, but you really have to look at the surrounding talent here. - Holt, already #19 most receptions, #17 yardage, high 1st round pick- Bruce, #6 and #3, best year was pre-Martz- Marshall Faulk, one of the best all-around RBs ever- Roy Williams, at least he's talented- Calvin Johnson - same
 
FUBAR said:
Chase Stuart said:
I don't like Smith, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that he just turned 24. Having a bad season at age 23 is hardly a death knell for a QB's career.
You're the stat-man, so maybe you can shed some light on this.How many QBs start their career with a 19/31 ratio, 63.5 rating in their first 3 years, and 130 yards per game in their 3rd year, and succeed? (obviously, you'll need to make the #s more wide, but you get the picture)
I don't think that really gets the picture. The key with Smith is that he's young. If you look more broadly, how many QBs have been unproductive in the NFL (either because they're not playing football, in college, on an NFL bench, or being a poor starter) at age 23, but turned out to be a good QB before it was all said and done? And the answer to that, I think, is more than enough to write off Smith. We all know about the late bloomers (Gannon, Garrard, Green, etc.), but even someone like Phil Simms didn't start his first NFL game until age 25. Being a bad 23 year old QB is not a damning statement; and when you factor his high pedigree, I think he still deserves the benefit of the doubt.Steve Young didn't have his first non-terrible year until age 26. Vinny Testaverde didn't throw more TDs than INTs any year in his 30s, but had some very good years after that. Troy Aikman was the worst QB in the league until he was 25 years old. A number 1 pick starting off terribly and then turning his career around isn't something unusual.
Do you believe that age is more important than years in the NFL and opportunity? How many 23 year-olds have 3 years of opportunity?

How many stud QBs were in college at 23? :unsure:
I think a QB that is 21 years old in the NFL has just about no chance of being successful. A QB that's 22 in the NFL has very little chance of being successful, and it's certainly not surprising when a 23 year old QB is bad, too. Donovan McNabb stunk at age 23, and then was great for the remainder of his career. If Alex Smith had simply been held back in high school, and took a little longer in college, we might be saying the same thing about him.When Smith was drafted, we all knew he was too young to succeed right away, and that it make take a few years before he has any value. Seven starts in his age 23 season simply isn't enough for me to write him off.

Alex Smith is a full year younger than Matt Leinart and Vince Young. Basically, last year would be his rookie season if he was Young or Leinart.
I respect your opinion, I don't completely agree that age is that important, but we shall see. There's no evidence either way.
 
Most fantasy points for a 21 year old QB: 216 (Fran Tarkenton).

Most fantasy points by a 22 year old QB:

Michael Vick 331

Drew Bledsoe 305

Peyton Manning 269

Fran Tarkenton 241

Alex Smith 219

Ben Roethlisberger 208

Tim Couch 203

Dan Marino 201

Most fantasy points by a 23 year old QB:

Dan Marino 429

Daunte Culpepper 402

Peyton Manning 315

Shaun King 263

Steve Grogan 259

Bernie Kosar 253

Brett Favre 246

Vince Young 242

Archie Manning 237

Drew Brees 235

Given that 250 points is basically the #15 or so QB these days, there really haven't been many 23 year olds worth much in today's game.

I think it's too soon to write of Smith, but I doubt he'll get a better opportunity to have a breakthrough season than this year.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top