What’s wrong with the Mediterranean diet? (1 Viewer)

[Mitchie]

Is the evidence using the health profile of the average person in the Mediterranean region? Or is it US consumers eating a Mediterranean diet vs a standard diet?

I love their cuisine, so I'm all about it. I guess my main concern would be the amount of processing in the ingredients used in the US vs that region.

It’s been studied in many different cultures, including Americans. What specific unprocessed ingredients are unavailable here?

I'm guessing someone could find whatever they need. It was more along the lines of if I buy a 10 count of pita bread in the med, its probably healthier than the 10 count I'm buying at an American grocery store.

If you look at the list of foods in the Mediterranean diet…I think it’s generally a lot easier to avoid processed food. Pita bread (or any bread) is not in the diet. It’s not anything and everything that people currently in the Mediterranean are eating.

Whole grain bread is part of the diet

 

[jhib]

I love me some salmon and most white fish too but my wife is not a seafood eater at all so I dont get as much as I would like. In the other thread where we talk about going crazy when our wives are out of town, my version of this includes grilling up some salmon.

This is exactly my situation, including the go-to meal every time my wife is out of town, lol.
I'd eat a lot more fish if my wife weren't sickened by even the smell of it, let alone the taste and texture. I love it, but am pretty much relegated to only getting it when eating out, and then you have to be at the right kind of restaurant for it to be a decent choice.

 

[fatness]

none of the fittest countries in the world are around the Mediterranean. They are mostly northern european and far, far east asian countries. Common ingredient is fish and lots of exercise. Greece, Italy and Turkey have over 30% obesity rates.

US - 42.9%
Turkey - 34.3%
Greece - 33.7%
Italy - 21.6%

2024 obesity rates

 

[gianmarco]

none of the fittest countries in the world are around the Mediterranean. They are mostly northern european and far, far east asian countries. Common ingredient is fish and lots of exercise. Greece, Italy and Turkey have over 30% obesity rates.

US - 42.9%
Turkey - 34.3%
Greece - 33.7%
Italy - 21.6%

2024 obesity rates

Username checks out.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

I eat this way primarily. Not sure if mentioned, but sardines are a hack.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Eat this way primarily. Not sure if mentioned, but sardines are a hack.

They’re quite healthy, as long as sodium not excessive, but definitely an acquired taste.

But heck, people adapt their palates for a lot of other stuff (e.g. alcohol, coffee, some cheeses), so why not fish?

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Eat this way primarily. Not sure if mentioned, but sardines are a hack.

They’re quite healthy, as long as sodium not excessive, but definitely an acquired taste.

But heck, people adapt their palates for a lot of other stuff (e.g. alcohol, coffee, some cheeses), so why not fish?

They are an acquired taste and that's a good point. I didn't really care for them, but they definitely grew on me. Added to a salad with a mustard vinaigrette is a pretty good though.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

@Terminalxylem you mention salt, what do you think about electrolyte drinks like lmnt that advertise high sodium as a feature?

Link to their website and what they are claiming.

The FDA's (mis)guidance on sodium

The FDA has called on food companies to limit salt in the food supply. Learn the truth about salt and blood pressure, heart disease, and why the war on salt is dangerous.

science.drinklmnt.com

 

[Terminalxylem]

@Terminalxylem you mention salt, what do you think about electrolyte drinks like lmnt that advertise high sodium as a feature?

Link to their website and what they are claiming.

The FDA's (mis)guidance on sodium

The FDA has called on food companies to limit salt in the food supply. Learn the truth about salt and blood pressure, heart disease, and why the war on salt is dangerous.

science.drinklmnt.com

While only a small percentage of people have salt (sodium chloride) sensitive hypertension (particularly African Americans), I think the FDA’s recommendation is reasonable for the general population. Personally, I rarely add table salt to food, and believe potassium based salts are better for heart health (assuming kidney function is normal).

Those who exercise and sweat a lot will need electrolyte repletion, sure. But that’s not the average American, who already consumes over a gram more sodium daily than recommended.

So, much like the protein “problem”, this seems more marketing than science. Most Americans are getting plenty of salt and protein, even if groups with inadequate intake can be identified. Poo-pooing the downsides of excess doesn’t make taking extra any healthier.

ETA I also dislike the misdirection to sugar’s role in our health problems. This tactic has helped shape other misguided nutrition advice, like the carnivore movement. I mean, sugar is bad - we get it. That doesn’t mean everything else is good.

 

[Joe Bryant]

ETA I know you know this, but processed meats, like sausage, are atop the heart unhealthy pyramid, alongside smoking. No butcher will change that.

For "real" sausage, which I'm sure my food brother @Judge Smails means, it's not processed at all. There's likely a higher fat ratio, but it's literally the same beef brisket or pork shoulder that would have gone on the smoker but ground put into a natural casing and some spices added. Very different than the processed sausages one might find at the store.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Related: anyone else make their own vinaigrette?

1.5 T olive oil, 0.5 T balsamic, 1/4 tsp Dijon mustard, 1/4 tsp salt, black pepper - 200 calories.

Whisk it good, toss with mixed greens. Use this as a meal base about 3 times a week.

Yup. Super easy and delicious.

 

[Terminalxylem]

ETA I know you know this, but processed meats, like sausage, are atop the heart unhealthy pyramid, alongside smoking. No butcher will change that.

For "real" sausage, which I'm sure my food brother @Judge Smails means, it's not processed at all. There's likely a higher fat ratio, but it's literally the same beef brisket or pork shoulder that would have gone on the smoker but ground put into a natural casing and some spices added. Very different than the processed sausages one might find at the store.

It isn’t cured, salted, or smoked? That’s all processing.

Regardless, it’s definitely not on any list of “heart healthy” foods.

 

[Joe Bryant]

ETA I know you know this, but processed meats, like sausage, are atop the heart unhealthy pyramid, alongside smoking. No butcher will change that.

For "real" sausage, which I'm sure my food brother @Judge Smails means, it's not processed at all. There's likely a higher fat ratio, but it's literally the same beef brisket or pork shoulder that would have gone on the smoker but ground put into a natural casing and some spices added. Very different than the processed sausages one might find at the store.

It isn’t cured, salted, or smoked? That’s all processing.

Regardless, it’s definitely not on any list of “heart healthy” foods.

No, it's not cured. It's cooked in the smoker exactly like beef brisket.

One can make the case smoking bbq is worse than baking.

My point was real sausage like I THINK @Judge Smails is talking about is not what many people think of with sausage from the grocery store. It's literally the same meat cooked the same way as the other BBQ.

It would be like grilling a steak vs grinding that exact same steak to hamburger and grilling a hamburger.

One can argue both are bad. But the hamburger in this case is essentially the same as the steak.

 

[Terminalxylem]

ETA I know you know this, but processed meats, like sausage, are atop the heart unhealthy pyramid, alongside smoking. No butcher will change that.

For "real" sausage, which I'm sure my food brother @Judge Smails means, it's not processed at all. There's likely a higher fat ratio, but it's literally the same beef brisket or pork shoulder that would have gone on the smoker but ground put into a natural casing and some spices added. Very different than the processed sausages one might find at the store.

It isn’t cured, salted, or smoked? That’s all processing.

Regardless, it’s definitely not on any list of “heart healthy” foods.

No, it's not cured. It's cooked in the smoker exactly like beef brisket.

One can make the case smoking bbq is worse than baking.

My point was real sausage like I THINK @Judge Smails is talking about is not what many people think of with sausage from the grocery store. It's literally the same meat cooked the same way as the other BBQ.

It would be like grilling a steak vs grinding that exact same steak to hamburger and grilling a hamburger.

One can argue both are bad. But the hamburger in this case is essentially the same as the steak.

I can agree that’s possibly healthier than the preservative laden stuff you’d buy in the grocery sure, but it certainly isn’t healthy. Smoking still introduces carcinogens, and counts as meat processing TMK. Same goes for the smoked BBQ.

 

[tri-man 47]

I love the concept of this diet, and I’d follow it if I could. The challenges are that my wife is the primary cook and (a) is rather lazy about planning dinners, and (b) she specifically doesn’t like beans. I hate it when she says (with much too much frequency) “I don’t know what we’re having for dinner tonight.” If I make suggestions for shopping or cooking, she’ll just tell me to do it myself. I might have to go that route.

 

[The Z Machine]

It’s honestly wild how something so well-supported gets sidelined. The Mediterranean diet is one of the few that feels both healthy and enjoyable. No extremes, just balance and good food.

This is exactly how I feel, but it seems like lowering red meat consumption in favor of fish is a stumbling block, as is eating less meat in general.

Moreover, contemporary diets have demonized carbohydrates so much, some have thrown out the whole grain baby with the ultraprocessed bath water,

Whole grain pasta tastes terrible. Whole grain bread is good tho.

 

[bagger]

It's just personal opinion, but a healthier diet seems mostly about eliminating the fast food, junk food in bags, sodas, and sugar and anything ultra processed.

I think if you get that right, the chicken vs fish question seems less important.

I'd also add I think a key factor is thinking about it not so much as a "diet" as in a challenge or doing something. It just becomes the way one eats most of the time.

Thinking of it that way I believe gives you a much better chance of sustaining it.

Yes, you can’t think of it as a diet but need to think of it as how you eat permanently, and it’s fine to deviate from it randomly.

Really just replacing carbs with more protein will help for portion control as you will feel more full and not eat as much or as crappy.

 

[djmich]

It’s honestly wild how something so well-supported gets sidelined. The Mediterranean diet is one of the few that feels both healthy and enjoyable. No extremes, just balance and good food.

This is exactly how I feel, but it seems like lowering red meat consumption in favor of fish is a stumbling block, as is eating less meat in general.

Moreover, contemporary diets have demonized carbohydrates so much, some have thrown out the whole grain baby with the ultraprocessed bath water,

Whole grain pasta tastes terrible. Whole grain bread is good tho.

As with everything what you buy is important...I believe whole grain bread can still look like processed breads in terms of sugar content, preservatives, etc.

 

[Mitchie]

It’s honestly wild how something so well-supported gets sidelined. The Mediterranean diet is one of the few that feels both healthy and enjoyable. No extremes, just balance and good food.

This is exactly how I feel, but it seems like lowering red meat consumption in favor of fish is a stumbling block, as is eating less meat in general.

Moreover, contemporary diets have demonized carbohydrates so much, some have thrown out the whole grain baby with the ultraprocessed bath water,

Whole grain pasta tastes terrible. Whole grain bread is good tho.

Taste is personal of course but I disagree, enjoy whole grain pasta just as much as regular pasta. It takes a little getting used but I don't even think about the difference. Whole Foods sells their own brand organic whole wheat pasta which is good and cheap.

 

[Mitchie]

It’s honestly wild how something so well-supported gets sidelined. The Mediterranean diet is one of the few that feels both healthy and enjoyable. No extremes, just balance and good food.

This is exactly how I feel, but it seems like lowering red meat consumption in favor of fish is a stumbling block, as is eating less meat in general.

Moreover, contemporary diets have demonized carbohydrates so much, some have thrown out the whole grain baby with the ultraprocessed bath water,

Whole grain pasta tastes terrible. Whole grain bread is good tho.

As with everything what you buy is important...I believe whole grain bread can still look like processed breads in terms of sugar content, preservatives, etc.

True to an extent, all store food bread will have some preservatives for shelf life - ideally could buy some whole grain bread from the bakery section - but the whole grain bread still significantly healthier than the white flour bread.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I can agree that’s possibly healthier than the preservative laden stuff you’d buy in the grocery sure, but it certainly isn’t healthy.

If you think the preservative laden processed stuff is unhealthy (and I do), real sausage is definitely healthier.

 

[motoclube]

It’s not extreme enough to sell. No gimmicks, no macros, no tribe, just long-term health, which isn’t sexy. People want fast results, not slow prevention. Also, real olive oil and fish cost more than eggs and frozen meat.

 

[Mister CIA]

Come for the Mediterranean diet discussion, stay for the sausage fest. Mmmm, soppresatta.

 

[Joe Bryant]

It’s not extreme enough to sell. No gimmicks, no macros, no tribe, just long-term health, which isn’t sexy. People want fast results, not slow prevention. Also, real olive oil and fish cost more than eggs and frozen meat.

I think it did "sell" well for a while. I remember it being the hot thing and even buying the book. It literally "sold" to me.

I think it's like many things, the next hot thing comes along and people jump to that and start talking about it.

This is my totally anecdotal, non-scientific thought on it, but my take is I think most any of the diets eating pretty much normal types of food, keeping an eye on calories, and avoiding excessively processed food and sugar manufactured with the intent of being addictive will be pretty good.

I'm less concerned about whether someone wants to use the Mediterranean Diet, The South Beach Diet, The Zone, Gluten Free even if you're not gluten sensitive, Intermittent Fasting, Whole 30, Paleo, Vegan or more than I am keeping an eye on calories and avoiding excessively processed food and sugar manufactured with the intent of being addictive.

I base that on what I've seen in real life with people and in talking with my MD friend. Obviously, it's a small sample size and purely anecdotal and yes, I realize all the problems that come with that. But I put a good bit of faith in what I've seen and experienced and what's worked for me personally.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I am with others that don't get caught up in diet names but have tried to take concepts from some of these to be healthier. I weighed 240 at one point in my life and probably wasn't healthy at all. I was able to get down to about 205 over the course of a few years doing a lot of walking, avoiding restaurants except taking the family out (no more work lunches!), going gluten free, and cutting out beer and soda and stuff. My gluten free adventure started because I had a child diagnosed with gluten allergy and it was so much easier to get her to eat by having her eat the same things we were so she didn't feel like she was missing out. Six months later, I had never felt better in my life in terms of energy and a lot less joint pain in my body. I spent a decade going from 200 to 220 just depending on how stringent I was with my lifestyle choices.

Then I decided to get serious about getting healthier and set a goal of being 180. I eat organic, grass-fed meats without antibiotics and hormones. I eat a lot of veggies and some fruit. I do drink protein shakes (protein powder, water, and ice and sometimes will add chia seeds). I eat eggs and egg whites a couple times a week too. I eat organic greek yogurt. I rarely eat junk food or sugar. When I have a sweet tooth, there is a bakery in my town that doesn't use sugar and they will bake with some combination of honey, maple syrup, or monk fruit. I don't pretend those treats are "healthy" but they are a lot better than restaurant dessert or sugary cookies or cakes you can get in a store.

I also changed my daily habits and work out most days with light weights and crunches and continue to walk several times a week. After 8 months, I'm far from ripped but probably as strong as I've been in over 20 years especially in my core. The key thing for me was someone suggested measuring your food and tracking your calories for a week or two and you would be stunned at what you put into your body. I think the first couple weeks I was well over 2000 calories a day being healthy. Now, I have days where it might only be 1600-1700 calories but I'm not even hungry. I eat plenty and days where I am hungry I do eat and don't think twice if I hit 1900-2000 calories. I eat roughly 150 grams of protein a day and now weigh about 165 pounds. I am not even trying to lose weight at this point just trying to know what I put into my body and watch my portions and be healthy.

My best advice is weigh your food and track your calories for a bit, cut out sugar and processed junk food, and read labels and know what goes into your body. Eating 6-7 ounces of fish or chicken or salmon or turkey is a lot of food and under 200 calories. Eating 4-6 ounces of berries is plenty of food. I eat a lot less red meat and when I do it's usually lean bison steaks or 93/7 grass fed beef. I do enjoy good BBQ occasionally though!. Make sure you include healthy fats into your diet too and eliminate empty junk food calories.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

It’s not extreme enough to sell. No gimmicks, no macros, no tribe, just long-term health, which isn’t sexy. People want fast results, not slow prevention. Also, real olive oil and fish cost more than eggs and frozen meat.

I think it did "sell" well for a while. I remember it being the hot thing and even buying the book. It literally "sold" to me.

I think it's like many things, the next hot thing comes along and people jump to that and start talking about it.

This is my totally anecdotal, non-scientific thought on it, but my take is I think most any of the diets eating pretty much normal types of food, keeping an eye on calories, and avoiding excessively processed food and sugar manufactured with the intent of being addictive will be pretty good.

I'm less concerned about whether someone wants to use the Mediterranean Diet, The South Beach Diet, The Zone, Gluten Free even if you're not gluten sensitive, Intermittent Fasting, Whole 30, Paleo, Vegan or more than I am cutting keeping an eye on calories and avoiding excessively processed food and sugar manufactured with the intent of being addictive.

I base that on what I've seen in real life with people and in talking with my MD friend. Obviously, it's a small sample size and purely anecdotal and yes, I realize all the problems that come with that. But I put a good bit of faith in what I've seen and experienced and what's worked for me personally.

Yep. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I eat this way primarily. Not sure if mentioned, but sardines are a hack.

Love em. Not good for the gouts

 

[DA RAIDERS]

ETA I know you know this, but processed meats, like sausage, are atop the heart unhealthy pyramid, alongside smoking. No butcher will change that.

For "real" sausage, which I'm sure my food brother @Judge Smails means, it's not processed at all. There's likely a higher fat ratio, but it's literally the same beef brisket or pork shoulder that would have gone on the smoker but ground put into a natural casing and some spices added. Very different than the processed sausages one might find at the store.

It isn’t cured, salted, or smoked? That’s all processing.

Regardless, it’s definitely not on any list of “heart healthy” foods.

No, it's not cured. It's cooked in the smoker exactly like beef brisket.

One can make the case smoking bbq is worse than baking.

My point was real sausage like I THINK @Judge Smails is talking about is not what many people think of with sausage from the grocery store. It's literally the same meat cooked the same way as the other BBQ.

It would be like grilling a steak vs grinding that exact same steak to hamburger and grilling a hamburger.

One can argue both are bad. But the hamburger in this case is essentially the same as the steak.

It’s not an argument. Both are bad for you. An IPA and a mich ultra will both make you fat. One just a little slower.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I am with others that don't get caught up in diet names but have tried to take concepts from some of these to be healthier. I weighed 240 at one point in my life and probably wasn't healthy at all. I was able to get down to about 205 over the course of a few years doing a lot of walking, avoiding restaurants except taking the family out (no more work lunches!), going gluten free, and cutting out beer and soda and stuff. My gluten free adventure started because I had a child diagnosed with gluten allergy and it was so much easier to get her to eat by having her eat the same things we were so she didn't feel like she was missing out. Six months later, I had never felt better in my life in terms of energy and a lot less joint pain in my body. I spent a decade going from 200 to 220 just depending on how stringent I was with my lifestyle choices.

Then I decided to get serious about getting healthier and set a goal of being 180. I eat organic, grass-fed meats without antibiotics and hormones. I eat a lot of veggies and some fruit. I do drink protein shakes (protein powder, water, and ice and sometimes will add chia seeds). I eat eggs and egg whites a couple times a week too. I eat organic greek yogurt. I rarely eat junk food or sugar. When I have a sweet tooth, there is a bakery in my town that doesn't use sugar and they will bake with some combination of honey, maple syrup, or monk fruit. I don't pretend those treats are "healthy" but they are a lot better than restaurant dessert or sugary cookies or cakes you can get in a store.

I also changed my daily habits and work out most days with light weights and crunches and continue to walk several times a week. After 8 months, I'm far from ripped but probably as strong as I've been in over 20 years especially in my core. The key thing for me was someone suggested measuring your food and tracking your calories for a week or two and you would be stunned at what you put into your body. I think the first couple weeks I was well over 2000 calories a day being healthy. Now, I have days where it might only be 1600-1700 calories but I'm not even hungry. I eat plenty and days where I am hungry I do eat and don't think twice if I hit 1900-2000 calories. I eat roughly 150 grams of protein a day and now weigh about 165 pounds. I am not even trying to lose weight at this point just trying to know what I put into my body and watch my portions and be healthy.

My best advice is weigh your food and track your calories for a bit, cut out sugar and processed junk food, and read labels and know what goes into your body. Eating 6-7 ounces of fish or chicken or salmon or turkey is a lot of food and under 200 calories. Eating 4-6 ounces of berries is plenty of food. I eat a lot less red meat and when I do it's usually lean bison steaks or 93/7 grass fed beef. I do enjoy good BBQ occasionally though!. Make sure you include healthy fats into your diet too and eliminate empty junk food calories.

 

[Terminalxylem]

It’s honestly wild how something so well-supported gets sidelined. The Mediterranean diet is one of the few that feels both healthy and enjoyable. No extremes, just balance and good food.

This is exactly how I feel, but it seems like lowering red meat consumption in favor of fish is a stumbling block, as is eating less meat in general.

Moreover, contemporary diets have demonized carbohydrates so much, some have thrown out the whole grain baby with the ultraprocessed bath water,

Whole grain pasta tastes terrible. Whole grain bread is good tho.

It doesn't taste bad imo, but the texture is different. With the right sauce, either marinara or olive oil/garlic, I don't notice a difference.

And I'm sure this will get some eyerolls, but there are lentil and veggie based pastas that are quite good. These have become our go-to.

Fresh pasta, whatever the ingredients, trumps the actual composition of the noodle though.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Despite being nearly universally recommended as one of the healthiest overall diets, with arguably the largest body of evidence supporting its role in disease prevention/control, it always seems to take a back seat to other eating patterns. Nowadays, that usually means diets which restrict carbohydrates to varying degrees.

To review, a Mediterranean diet has the following features:

1. high monounsaturated:saturated fat ratio (use of olive oil as main cooking ingredient)
2. high consumption of fruits/vegetables
3. high consumption of legumes
4. high consumption of grains/cereals
5. moderate red wine consumption
6. moderate consumption of dairy products
7. low consumption of meat and meat products (replaced by increased consumption of fish)

So, minimally processed, plant-based, a lot of olive oil, fish instead of other meats, some alcohol and dairy. No counting macronutrients.

For those of you that have tried and disliked it, or chosen other, less evidence based eating patterns, why not Mediterranean?

because it's not compatible with the standard American family lifestyle (i.e. quick and cheap meals)

 

[Terminalxylem]

I can agree that’s possibly healthier than the preservative laden stuff you’d buy in the grocery sure, but it certainly isn’t healthy.

If you think the preservative laden processed stuff is unhealthy (and I do), real sausage is definitely healthier.

Sure, and menthol cigarettes are worse than regular ones. Nonetheless, neither is heathy, by any stretch.

People can eat whatever they want, of course. And an occasional lapse probably won't cause much harm.

Still, I think the idea is an extension of the appeal to nature fallacy. The difference between butcher-made, self smoked sausage and the junk in the store is likely inconsequential, healthwise. But we'll never know, as I doubt a study will be performed to determine which is "healthier".

 

[Terminalxylem]

It’s not extreme enough to sell. No gimmicks, no macros, no tribe, just long-term health, which isn’t sexy. People want fast results, not slow prevention. Also, real olive oil and fish cost more than eggs and frozen meat.

I think it did "sell" well for a while. I remember it being the hot thing and even buying the book. It literally "sold" to me.

I think it's like many things, the next hot thing comes along and people jump to that and start talking about it.

This is my totally anecdotal, non-scientific thought on it, but my take is I think most any of the diets eating pretty much normal types of food, keeping an eye on calories, and avoiding excessively processed food and sugar manufactured with the intent of being addictive will be pretty good.

I'm less concerned about whether someone wants to use the Mediterranean Diet, The South Beach Diet, The Zone, Gluten Free even if you're not gluten sensitive, Intermittent Fasting, Whole 30, Paleo, Vegan or more than I am cutting keeping an eye on calories and avoiding excessively processed food and sugar manufactured with the intent of being addictive.

I base that on what I've seen in real life with people and in talking with my MD friend. Obviously, it's a small sample size and purely anecdotal and yes, I realize all the problems that come with that. But I put a good bit of faith in what I've seen and experienced and what's worked for me personally.

Yep. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I can agree with this, and just about any diet which maintains a healthy weight is better than the alternative.

But it is interesting how low fat diets in the 80s, and low carbohydrate/high protein diets now, seem better at capturing the public's interest than something far more evidence based. I mean, several contemporary trends directly conflict with what we know is healthy.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

We make a Buffalo chicken quinoa bowl that checks a lot of the boxes. Super easy to make and really delicious. Chicken breast, quinoa, blue cheese crumbles (not too many, but enough to get a few bites), Frank's, substitute olive oil for butter. In a wrap for on the go is also awesome.

To echo a previous comment. Don't let perfect get in the way of good. Not everything has to be perfect to eat "Mediterranean". Use the principles behind the diet and introduce as many as possible and that's likely a lot better than the standard American diet.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The difference between butcher-made, self smoked sausage and the junk in the store is likely inconsequential, healthwise.

Sure, if you assume ultra processed additives and preservatives are inconsequential to health.

 

[Joe Bryant]

We make a Buffalo chicken quinoa bowl that checks a lot of the boxes. Super easy to make and really delicious. Chicken breast, quinoa, blue cheese crumbles (not too many, but enough to get a few bites), Frank's, substitute olive oil for butter. In a wrap for on the go is also awesome.

To echo a previous comment. Don't let perfect get in the way of good. Not everything has to be perfect to eat "Mediterranean". Use the principles behind the diet and introduce as many as possible and that's likely a lot better than the standard American diet.

Sounds great. And as you say, easy.

I'm continually surprised at how difficult this seems for folks while the answer is relatively easy.

I wonder how much of it's an ability thing vs how much is a desire or priority thing. Sort of like we talked about in the Fantasy Football thread and some saying they don't have time. We all have time. The issue is what we prioritize.

 

[the moops]

We make a Buffalo chicken quinoa bowl that checks a lot of the boxes. Super easy to make and really delicious. Chicken breast, quinoa, blue cheese crumbles (not too many, but enough to get a few bites), Frank's, substitute olive oil for butter. In a wrap for on the go is also awesome.

You gotta add some veggies to that thing my man

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

We make a Buffalo chicken quinoa bowl that checks a lot of the boxes. Super easy to make and really delicious. Chicken breast, quinoa, blue cheese crumbles (not too many, but enough to get a few bites), Frank's, substitute olive oil for butter. In a wrap for on the go is also awesome.

You gotta add some veggies to that thing my man

You sure could. Peppers and onions would be a pretty good addition. Typical day gets a solid amount if veggies so with this one we let the quinoa do the heavy lifting in that regard, but that's a good point and it would be easy to sneak whatever sounds good in.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

We make a Buffalo chicken quinoa bowl that checks a lot of the boxes. Super easy to make and really delicious. Chicken breast, quinoa, blue cheese crumbles (not too many, but enough to get a few bites), Frank's, substitute olive oil for butter. In a wrap for on the go is also awesome.

To echo a previous comment. Don't let perfect get in the way of good. Not everything has to be perfect to eat "Mediterranean". Use the principles behind the diet and introduce as many as possible and that's likely a lot better than the standard American diet.

Sounds great. And as you say, easy.

I'm continually surprised at how difficult this seems for folks while the answer is relatively easy.

I wonder how much of it's an ability thing vs how much is a desire or priority thing. Sort of like we talked about in the Fantasy Football thread and some saying they don't have time. We all have time. The issue is what we prioritize.

Making your own food will always require an effort the drive through on the way home from work doesn't, but that doesn't mean it has to be difficult. We do meal prep for lunch every Sunday. Takes about an hour and I'll have lunch for the week nicely packaged, healthy, and most important easy. Not a huge commitment.

 

[Judge Smails]

ETA I know you know this, but processed meats, like sausage, are atop the heart unhealthy pyramid, alongside smoking. No butcher will change that.

For "real" sausage, which I'm sure my food brother @Judge Smails means, it's not processed at all. There's likely a higher fat ratio, but it's literally the same beef brisket or pork shoulder that would have gone on the smoker but ground put into a natural casing and some spices added. Very different than the processed sausages one might find at the store.

Yeah this was a prime butcher shop. Guy makes it right there. He used some Texas creeper seasoning that was tasty but man it was hot. Too hot. But this was not processed stuff.

 

[Terminalxylem]

At the risk of really beating this horse, smoked meat is processed, by definition. High temperature/flame grilling also poses health risks. Moreover, any way you package a bunch of saturated fat and red meat, it’s not good for you.

At best, the butcher prepped smoked sausage is a lesser of two evils.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

@Terminalxylem what's the verdict on wild game? I'm a hunter and have quite a bit of venison. It's red meat, but very lean and low saturated fat. Does that carry the same risk as other red meat? It's often contradictory when i see it mentioned as both healthy and unhealthy (red meat).

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Speaking of sausage and venison. We get it turned into "healthy" sausage with the same methods as mentioned (no smoke or heat though, just seasoning) with no preservatives or junk added. I like to think it's better than the Jimmy Dean at the grocery store, but we limit it as there is pork added and the fat is pretty high.

Venison cudighi is next level. And if you've never had cudighi sausage (typically all pork, the venison twist on it isn't commercial) put it on your bucket list. It's a northern Italian sausage and a lot of us locally have that as our heritage so every store, restaurant, deli has their own twist on it and most families here have a secret recipe.

 

[Terminalxylem]

@Terminalxylem what's the verdict on wild game? I'm a hunter and have quite a bit of venison. It's red meat, but very lean and low saturated fat. Does that carry the same risk as other red meat? It's often contradictory when i see it mentioned as both healthy and unhealthy (red meat).

AFAIK, no well designed studies have compared game to other meat. More importantly, a diet high in game meat hasn’t been compared directly to a plant-based alternative, like the Mediterranean diet.

On the plus side, there’s much less saturated fat, hormone and antibiotic exposure in game than factory raised animals. Less pesticides and herbicides as well, along with other environmental contaminants, like polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs).

For downside, there are concerns for lead exposure among chronic consumers of game (if shot). Food borne illness can also occur, if it isn’t dressed appropriately. Lastly, all grilled, charred, and smoked meats introduce a host of disease-causing chemicals.

In general, unprocessed red meat consumption is associated with increased cardiovascular and cancer risk, as well as all cause mortality. It may contribute to diabetes as well. This is thought to be multifactorial, related to saturated fat, heme iron, trimethyamine, and higher concentrations of amino acids which activate aging pathways (e.g. branched chain amino acids, methionine).

So, venison is probably healthier than most red meat, but I wouldn’t call it healthy. There’s no long lived population for which game meat is a dietary staple, and game shares enough characteristics with store bought meat to extrapolate the potential for harm, imo.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

@Terminalxylem what's the verdict on wild game? I'm a hunter and have quite a bit of venison. It's red meat, but very lean and low saturated fat. Does that carry the same risk as other red meat? It's often contradictory when i see it mentioned as both healthy and unhealthy (red meat).

AFAIK, no well designed studies have compared game to other meat. More importantly, a diet high in game meat hasn’t been compared directly to a plant-based alternative, like the Mediterranean diet.

On the plus side, there’s much less saturated fat, hormone and antibiotic exposure in game than factory raised animals. Less pesticides and herbicides as well, along with other environmental contaminants, like polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs).

For downside, there are concerns for lead exposure among chronic consumers of game (if shot). Food borne illness can also occur, if it isn’t dressed appropriately. Lastly, all grilled, charred, and smoked meats introduce a host of disease-causing chemicals.

In general, unprocessed red meat consumption is associated with increased cardiovascular and cancer risk, as well as all cause mortality. It may contribute to diabetes as well. This is thought to be multifactorial, related to saturated fat, heme iron, trimethyamine, and higher concentrations of amino acids which activate aging pathways (e.g. branched chain amino acids, methionine).

So, venison is probably healthier than most red meat, but I wouldn’t call it healthy. There’s no long lived population for which game meat is a dietary staple, and game shares enough characteristics with store bought meat to extrapolate the potential for harm, imo.

I wasn't aware that bcaa's and methionine promoted aging, that's interesting. Atleast in my case method of harvest and preparation aren't a concern, but the possibility of harvesting an animal that survived a previous shot with lead is always a possibility and one I've never really thought about.

Thanks for the response, it's good food for thought.

 

[Ron Swanson]

At the risk of really beating this horse, smoked meat is processed, by definition. High temperature/flame grilling also poses health risks. Moreover, any way you package a bunch of saturated fat and red meat, it’s not good for you.

At best, the butcher prepped smoked sausage is a lesser of two evils.

@Terminalxylem I don't understand how smoking equals processed? When I refer to smoking I'm referring to cooking meat that is seasoned with salt and pepper and maybe chili flake over low to medium heat provided by actual wood. No fillers, no curing agents, just meat, seasoning, and fire. Any kind of meat. It could be chicken, fish, beef, duck, pork, goat, lamb, etc. Are you saying any of those, even fish, if smoked is now processed and bad for you?

 

[gianmarco]

At the risk of really beating this horse, smoked meat is processed, by definition. High temperature/flame grilling also poses health risks. Moreover, any way you package a bunch of saturated fat and red meat, it’s not good for you.

At best, the butcher prepped smoked sausage is a lesser of two evils.

@Terminalxylem I don't understand how smoking equals processed? When I refer to smoking I'm referring to cooking meat that is seasoned with salt and pepper and maybe chili flake over low to medium heat provided by actual wood. No fillers, no curing agents, just meat, seasoning, and fire. Any kind of meat. It could be chicken, fish, beef, duck, pork, goat, lamb, etc. Are you saying any of those, even fish, if smoked is now processed and bad for you?

Yes, smoking as a form of cooking is not good for you. Even fish.

The smoking process creates carcinogens and has been linked to certain forms of cancer. That was his point that it doesn't matter if the meat is "natural" or not, that the meat itself (red meat) isn't healthy overall AND that particular cooking process makes it worse. Sure, it is likely healthier than what you get in the store, but it's still not healthy.

 

[Terminalxylem]

@Terminalxylem what's the verdict on wild game? I'm a hunter and have quite a bit of venison. It's red meat, but very lean and low saturated fat. Does that carry the same risk as other red meat? It's often contradictory when i see it mentioned as both healthy and unhealthy (red meat).

AFAIK, no well designed studies have compared game to other meat. More importantly, a diet high in game meat hasn’t been compared directly to a plant-based alternative, like the Mediterranean diet.

On the plus side, there’s much less saturated fat, hormone and antibiotic exposure in game than factory raised animals. Less pesticides and herbicides as well, along with other environmental contaminants, like polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs).

For downside, there are concerns for lead exposure among chronic consumers of game (if shot). Food borne illness can also occur, if it isn’t dressed appropriately. Lastly, all grilled, charred, and smoked meats introduce a host of disease-causing chemicals.

In general, unprocessed red meat consumption is associated with increased cardiovascular and cancer risk, as well as all cause mortality. It may contribute to diabetes as well. This is thought to be multifactorial, related to saturated fat, heme iron, trimethyamine, and higher concentrations of amino acids which activate aging pathways (e.g. branched chain amino acids, methionine).

So, venison is probably healthier than most red meat, but I wouldn’t call it healthy. There’s no long lived population for which game meat is a dietary staple, and game shares enough characteristics with store bought meat to extrapolate the potential for harm, imo.

I wasn't aware that bcaa's and methionine promoted aging, that's interesting. Atleast in my case method of harvest and preparation aren't a concern, but the possibility of harvesting an animal that survived a previous shot with lead is always a possibility and one I've never really thought about.

Thanks for the response, it's good food for thought.

Yes, methionine and bcaa’s, especially leucine iirc, are activators of anabolic pathways involving insulin-like growth factor and mTOR. That’s great for building muscle, but also increases cellular waste, and impairs its removal by inhibiting something called autophagy. When waste builds up, it stimulates inflammation, and aging.

In addition to limiting calories, protein and amino acid restriction are well described promoters of longevity. Granted, pretty much all the data is in animals and lower organisms, but aging pathways are some of the most conserved/consistent throughout nature. Humans have the same hormones and regulators of metabolism, so it stands to reason amino acid/protein/caloric restriction (within reason) should work in us as well.

Although it’s nearly impossible to carry out longevity studies in humans, the differential amino acid content between animal and plant protein may help to explain why plants form the basis of all the healthiest diets. It also explains my broken record ranting about the possibility of consuming too much protein, especially when it’s derived from animals.

I’ve posted this before, but here’s a decent review of the science behind nutrition and longevity.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

@Terminalxylem what's the verdict on wild game? I'm a hunter and have quite a bit of venison. It's red meat, but very lean and low saturated fat. Does that carry the same risk as other red meat? It's often contradictory when i see it mentioned as both healthy and unhealthy (red meat).

AFAIK, no well designed studies have compared game to other meat. More importantly, a diet high in game meat hasn’t been compared directly to a plant-based alternative, like the Mediterranean diet.

On the plus side, there’s much less saturated fat, hormone and antibiotic exposure in game than factory raised animals. Less pesticides and herbicides as well, along with other environmental contaminants, like polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs).

For downside, there are concerns for lead exposure among chronic consumers of game (if shot). Food borne illness can also occur, if it isn’t dressed appropriately. Lastly, all grilled, charred, and smoked meats introduce a host of disease-causing chemicals.

In general, unprocessed red meat consumption is associated with increased cardiovascular and cancer risk, as well as all cause mortality. It may contribute to diabetes as well. This is thought to be multifactorial, related to saturated fat, heme iron, trimethyamine, and higher concentrations of amino acids which activate aging pathways (e.g. branched chain amino acids, methionine).

So, venison is probably healthier than most red meat, but I wouldn’t call it healthy. There’s no long lived population for which game meat is a dietary staple, and game shares enough characteristics with store bought meat to extrapolate the potential for harm, imo.

I wasn't aware that bcaa's and methionine promoted aging, that's interesting. Atleast in my case method of harvest and preparation aren't a concern, but the possibility of harvesting an animal that survived a previous shot with lead is always a possibility and one I've never really thought about.

Thanks for the response, it's good food for thought.

Yes, methionine and bcaa’s, especially leucine iirc, are activators of anabolic pathways involving insulin-like growth factor and mTOR. That’s great for building muscle, but also increases cellular waste, and impairs its removal by inhibiting something called autophagy. When waste builds up, it stimulates inflammation, and aging.

In addition to limiting calories, protein and amino acid restriction are well described promoters of longevity. Granted, pretty much all the data is in animals and lower organisms, but aging pathways are some of the most conserved/consistent throughout nature. Humans have the same hormones and regulators of metabolism, so it stands to reason amino acid/protein/caloric restriction (within reason) should work in us as well.

Although it’s nearly impossible to carry out longevity studies in humans, the differential amino acid content between animal and plant protein may help to explain why plants form the basis of all the healthiest diets. It also explains my broken record ranting about the possibility of consuming too much protein, especially when it’s derived from animals.

I’ve posted this before, but here’s a decent review of the science behind nutrition and longevity.

So would fasting be a way to attenuate the increased cellular waste? I know fasting will promote autophagy, but is that enough to offset high protein intake? You mention calorie restriction along with lowering animal protein, but on its own with high animal protein is there a meaningful difference?

Interesting stuff.

 

[Terminalxylem]

@Terminalxylem what's the verdict on wild game? I'm a hunter and have quite a bit of venison. It's red meat, but very lean and low saturated fat. Does that carry the same risk as other red meat? It's often contradictory when i see it mentioned as both healthy and unhealthy (red meat).

AFAIK, no well designed studies have compared game to other meat. More importantly, a diet high in game meat hasn’t been compared directly to a plant-based alternative, like the Mediterranean diet.

On the plus side, there’s much less saturated fat, hormone and antibiotic exposure in game than factory raised animals. Less pesticides and herbicides as well, along with other environmental contaminants, like polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs).

For downside, there are concerns for lead exposure among chronic consumers of game (if shot). Food borne illness can also occur, if it isn’t dressed appropriately. Lastly, all grilled, charred, and smoked meats introduce a host of disease-causing chemicals.

In general, unprocessed red meat consumption is associated with increased cardiovascular and cancer risk, as well as all cause mortality. It may contribute to diabetes as well. This is thought to be multifactorial, related to saturated fat, heme iron, trimethyamine, and higher concentrations of amino acids which activate aging pathways (e.g. branched chain amino acids, methionine).

So, venison is probably healthier than most red meat, but I wouldn’t call it healthy. There’s no long lived population for which game meat is a dietary staple, and game shares enough characteristics with store bought meat to extrapolate the potential for harm, imo.

I wasn't aware that bcaa's and methionine promoted aging, that's interesting. Atleast in my case method of harvest and preparation aren't a concern, but the possibility of harvesting an animal that survived a previous shot with lead is always a possibility and one I've never really thought about.

Thanks for the response, it's good food for thought.

Yes, methionine and bcaa’s, especially leucine iirc, are activators of anabolic pathways involving insulin-like growth factor and mTOR. That’s great for building muscle, but also increases cellular waste, and impairs its removal by inhibiting something called autophagy. When waste builds up, it stimulates inflammation, and aging.

In addition to limiting calories, protein and amino acid restriction are well described promoters of longevity. Granted, pretty much all the data is in animals and lower organisms, but aging pathways are some of the most conserved/consistent throughout nature. Humans have the same hormones and regulators of metabolism, so it stands to reason amino acid/protein/caloric restriction (within reason) should work in us as well.

Although it’s nearly impossible to carry out longevity studies in humans, the differential amino acid content between animal and plant protein may help to explain why plants form the basis of all the healthiest diets. It also explains my broken record ranting about the possibility of consuming too much protein, especially when it’s derived from animals.

I’ve posted this before, but here’s a decent review of the science behind nutrition and longevity.

So would fasting be a way to attenuate the increased cellular waste? I know fasting will promote autophagy, but is that enough to offset high protein intake? You mention calorie restriction along with lowering animal protein, but on its own with high animal protein is there a meaningful difference?

Interesting stuff.

Unknown. In the absence of data, makes more sense not to exceed the maximum amount of protein intake to maintain muscle (~1-1.5 g/kg/day), while skewing towards more plant sources, imo.

Especially since those same plants offer many other health benefits.