What does the confederate flag mean to you? (1 Viewer)

[SaintsInDome2006]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

Me. Why do we pay tribute to traitors on American soil?

The people who actually were shot at and were invaded and harmed allowed it though, right?

With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the fight as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.

- Abraham Lincoln

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

I think it's worth discussing. I can't find the article now, but someone posted something a while back on the sheer number of Confederate memorials throughout the south - there are far more memorials (including streets named after generals) to the confederacy than there are of the American Revolution, or any other war. Would it kill us to pare back a bit?

IMO, a lot of these memorials were established as a veiled ode to white supremacy...Nathan Bedford Forrest, in particular. Edmund Pettus is another. The movement to rename the Pettus bridge, by the way, predates Charleston.

I don't mind renaming streets, though I think it should be given some thought.

If one can provide evidence that they truly are veiled odes to white supremacy, then I would be willing to reconsider. But I fear the evidence for this is going to be tepid at best. As I pointed out earlier, Nathan Bedford Forrest was a complex figure, a great general, (though probably a war criminal), and the organization he started was not representative of the modern KKK.

Shouldn't communities be allowed to decide what they want to commemorate and honor on their own? And if there is outside influence, shouldn't communities be allowed to decide what is worth the trouble? Offended because a community decides they would rather not be linked to honoring someone or something and would like to move forward without that stain (or merely controversy)?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Lincoln was trying to restore the union as quickly as possible. He was being diplomatic. 160 years later we don't need to be.

 

[timschochet]

Wow Ivan. Auschwitz? Really?

I have a great uncle who died at Auschwitz, but if I ever go to Germany and there's a statue somewhere of Erwin Rommel, I'd like to see it. Because I admire Rommel and he had nothing to do with Auschwitz.

But even beyond that it's a terrible thing to compare the Confederacy to the Third Reich. Shameful really.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

You pretty big on seeing statues?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You pretty big on seeing statues?

Do you have any where you live?

 

[Leroy Hoard]

You pretty big on seeing statues?

When it comes to statues I have my limitations.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

You pretty big on seeing statues?

Do you have any where you live?

No. I happen to live in the only statueless city in America.

 

[General Tso]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

Me. Why do we pay tribute to traitors on American soil?

The people who actually were shot at and were invaded and harmed allowed it though, right?

With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the fight as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.

- Abraham Lincoln

".,.until enough time has passed where we can eradicate their memory without them putting up a big fight about it".

 

[Insomniac]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

According to Snopes Forrest was originally buried in Elmwood Cemetery and moved to his current location in 1905. His body was already moved once. Why is it a big deal to put him back in his original resting space.

 

[trogg78]

i had no ida there are so many memorials to the confederacy in the South. I'm mostly used to seeing things for the Underground Railroad. Different worlds I guess.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

The only thing anybody is trying to eradicate is the adoration of the Confederacy and the Confederates.

 

[General Malaise]

The only thing anybody is trying to eradicate is the adoration of the Confederacy and the Confederates.

Well, and racism.

 

[Del Griffith]

Apparently the Confederate flag meant way too much to this moron, enough to make him cry to the cops:

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

The only thing anybody is trying to eradicate is the adoration of the Confederacy and the Confederates.

Well, and racism.

True...but you got all these yahoos who will say it has nothing to do with racism and that it's about "heritage". Fine, whatever let's you sleep at night, Jeb. I see the "heritage" part as pretty damn silly.

 

[Mr. Cross]

The only thing anybody is trying to eradicate is the adoration of the Confederacy and the Confederates.

Well, and racism.

And embiciles.

 

[General Tso]

The only thing anybody is trying to eradicate is the adoration of the Confederacy and the Confederates.

Well, and racism.

True...but you got all these yahoos who will say it has nothing to do with racism and that it's about "heritage". Fine, whatever let's you sleep at night, Jeb. I see the "heritage" part as pretty damn silly.

agree

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

The only thing anybody is trying to eradicate is the adoration of the Confederacy and the Confederates.

Well, and racism.

And embiciles.

Baby steps, brocephus. Baby steps.

 

[joffer]

Apparently the Confederate flag meant way too much to this moron, enough to make him cry to the cops:

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

the vendor is selling nazi helmets, but the other guy is the moron.....uh huh.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Wow Ivan. Auschwitz? Really?

Yes, really. The confederacy stood for something that was every bit as evil as Nazism. I think it's a good idea that we remember slavery, but not celebrate it or the people who fought to preserve it.

Please tell me what's wrong with that analogy.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Apparently the Confederate flag meant way too much to this moron, enough to make him cry to the cops:

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

the vendor is selling nazi helmets, but the other guy is the moron.....uh huh.

Not sure what all the fuhrer is all about.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Wow Ivan. Auschwitz? Really?

Yes, really. The confederacy stood for something that was every bit as evil as Nazism. I think it's a good idea that we remember slavery, but not celebrate it or the people who fought to preserve it.

Please tell me what's wrong with that analogy.

Because Tim isn't black?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

But even beyond that it's a terrible thing to compare the Confederacy to the Third Reich. Shameful really.

Hold on a second. I didn't even make it this far before responding the first time.

You're telling me that there's absolutely no comparing the CSA, which went to war to defend the practice of race-based slavery, and the Third Reich? That the difference is so clearly stark that making such a comparison is way out of line?

Are you insane?

 

[General Tso]

Apparently the Confederate flag meant way too much to this moron, enough to make him cry to the cops:

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

the vendor is selling nazi helmets, but the other guy is the moron.....uh huh.

Thought I'd see something like this in New Haven. Not Wallingford. What a dope.

 

[General Tso]

But even beyond that it's a terrible thing to compare the Confederacy to the Third Reich. Shameful really.

Hold on a second. I didn't even make it this far before responding the first time.

You're telling me that there's absolutely no comparing the CSA, which went to war to defend the practice of race-based slavery, and the Third Reich? That the difference is so clearly stark that making such a comparison is way out of line?

Are you insane?

They both suck. But systematically exterminating 6 million people is really in a category all by itself.

 

[Del Griffith]

Apparently the Confederate flag meant way too much to this moron, enough to make him cry to the cops:

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

the vendor is selling nazi helmets, but the other guy is the moron.....uh huh.

Ummm,...yeah, the calling the cops part makes him a moron.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

But even beyond that it's a terrible thing to compare the Confederacy to the Third Reich. Shameful really.

Hold on a second. I didn't even make it this far before responding the first time.

You're telling me that there's absolutely no comparing the CSA, which went to war to defend the practice of race-based slavery, and the Third Reich? That the difference is so clearly stark that making such a comparison is way out of line?

Are you insane?

They both suck. But systematically exterminating 6 million people is really in a category all by itself.

I'm not interested in debating which is worse.

I'm more interested in the notion that you just can't even compare a Confederate memorial to a Nazi memorial. That's just bat-#### crazy. Of course they're comparable.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Apparently the Confederate flag meant way too much to this moron, enough to make him cry to the cops:

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

the vendor is selling nazi helmets, but the other guy is the moron.....uh huh.

Ummm,...yeah, the calling the cops part makes him a moron.

Yeah calling 911 is pretty stupid.

 

[General Tso]

Wonder what the Pope would say about the confederate memorabilia - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/13/pope-francis-communist-crucifix-gift-bolivia?CMP=edit_2221

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You pretty big on seeing statues?

Do you have any where you live?

No. I happen to live in the only statueless city in America.

Ha. Ok well you've got that going for you.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

But even beyond that it's a terrible thing to compare the Confederacy to the Third Reich. Shameful really.

Hold on a second. I didn't even make it this far before responding the first time.

You're telling me that there's absolutely no comparing the CSA, which went to war to defend the practice of race-based slavery, and the Third Reich? That the difference is so clearly stark that making such a comparison is way out of line?

Are you insane?

They both suck. But systematically exterminating 6 million people is really in a category all by itself.

I'm not interested in debating which is worse.

I'm more interested in the notion that you just can't even compare a Confederate memorial to a Nazi memorial. That's just bat-#### crazy. Of course they're comparable.

If you're going to do it, then do it.

The Nazis were a party, that party was eradicated, and they were forced to unconditionally surrender.

In the south, the party responsible was allowed to resume its place in American life and they were not made to unconditionally surrender.

This is not a knock on the Democrats, but those are two major differences. It's just funny that all of a sudden people turn around and go 'what's all this confederate memorabilia doing around here?'

One party and ideology was outlawed, the other party and ideology was not.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Wonder what the Pope would say about the confederate memorabilia - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/13/pope-francis-communist-crucifix-gift-bolivia?CMP=edit_2221

I think I know what JP2 would have said.

 

[Christo]

Apparently the Confederate flag meant way too much to this moron, enough to make him cry to the cops:

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

the vendor is selling nazi helmets, but the other guy is the moron.....uh huh.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Apparently the Confederate flag meant way too much to this moron, enough to make him cry to the cops:

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

the vendor is selling nazi helmets, but the other guy is the moron.....uh huh.

Not sure what all the fuhrer is all about.

 

[trogg78]

Wonder what the Pope would say about the confederate memorabilia - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/13/pope-francis-communist-crucifix-gift-bolivia?CMP=edit_2221

Why don't you send him some and ask?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

But even beyond that it's a terrible thing to compare the Confederacy to the Third Reich. Shameful really.

Hold on a second. I didn't even make it this far before responding the first time.

You're telling me that there's absolutely no comparing the CSA, which went to war to defend the practice of race-based slavery, and the Third Reich? That the difference is so clearly stark that making such a comparison is way out of line?

Are you insane?

They both suck. But systematically exterminating 6 million people is really in a category all by itself.

I'm not interested in debating which is worse.

I'm more interested in the notion that you just can't even compare a Confederate memorial to a Nazi memorial. That's just bat-#### crazy. Of course they're comparable.

If you're going to do it, then do it.

The Nazis were a party, that party was eradicated, and they were forced to unconditionally surrender.

In the south, the party responsible was allowed to resume its place in American life and they were not made to unconditionally surrender.

This is not a knock on the Democrats, but those are two major differences. It's just funny that all of a sudden people turn around and go 'what's all this confederate memorabilia doing around here?'

One party and ideology was outlawed, the other party and ideology was not.

Is this serious? The Democratic Party doesn't stand for slavery or secession.

 

[Joe Summer]

But even beyond that it's a terrible thing to compare the Confederacy to the Third Reich. Shameful really.

Hold on a second. I didn't even make it this far before responding the first time.

You're telling me that there's absolutely no comparing the CSA, which went to war to defend the practice of race-based slavery, and the Third Reich? That the difference is so clearly stark that making such a comparison is way out of line?

Are you insane?

They both suck. But systematically exterminating 6 million people is really in a category all by itself.

I'm not interested in debating which is worse.

I'm more interested in the notion that you just can't even compare a Confederate memorial to a Nazi memorial. That's just bat-#### crazy. Of course they're comparable.

If you're going to do it, then do it.

The Nazis were a party, that party was eradicated, and they were forced to unconditionally surrender.

In the south, the party responsible was allowed to resume its place in American life and they were not made to unconditionally surrender.

This is not a knock on the Democrats, but those are two major differences. It's just funny that all of a sudden people turn around and go 'what's all this confederate memorabilia doing around here?'

One party and ideology was outlawed, the other party and ideology was not.

You have a strange fascination with the old Democratic party.

 

[timschochet]

Slavery was a great evil that had been around for generations. But the Confederates did not believe it to be evil. They argued that it was a positive good, both for themselves and the slaves they owned. These were men who believed in American ideals: the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights. They were far removed from Nazis.

The Holocaust was a great crime and the men who did it knew that which is why it was a secret. The Confederates did not try to hide slavery because they believed it to be a positive, part of a way of life and tradition. They were not evil, though they supported a way of life that was evil. Evil demands realization of the immorality of one's actions. American slave owners lacked this.

As far as them being traitors, one only has to consider that, had George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Patrick Henry lived during the Civil War they would have all have fought for the South. That should put the question of treason to bed IMO.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Oh for ####s sake Tim.

 

[timschochet]

And Saints I'm not sure where you're going with the Democratic Party thing. There were as many southern Whigs that were secessionists as Democrats, and northern Drms were not for secession. Whatever point you're trying to make doesn't fit.

 

[Mr. Cross]

Slavery was a great evil that had been around for generations. But the Confederates did not believe it to be evil. They argued that it was a positive good, both for themselves and the slaves they owned. These were men who believed in American ideals: the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights. They were far removed from Nazis.

The Holocaust was a great crime and the men who did it knew that which is why it was a secret. The Confederates did not try to hide slavery because they believed it to be a positive, part of a way of life and tradition. They were not evil, though they supported a way of life that was evil. Evil demands realization of the immorality of one's actions. American slave owners lacked this.

As far as them being traitors, one only has to consider that, had George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Patrick Henry lived during the Civil War they would have all have fought for the South. That should put the question of treason to bed IMO.

Your crazy

 

[timschochet]

It seems funny to me, all the years I've been interested in this subject I have been arguing with Lost Cause people who considered the Confederates to be heroic and without blemish. Now I'm arguing with people who have gone completely in the other direction and believe the Confederates are evil Nazis.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

But even beyond that it's a terrible thing to compare the Confederacy to the Third Reich. Shameful really.

Hold on a second. I didn't even make it this far before responding the first time.

You're telling me that there's absolutely no comparing the CSA, which went to war to defend the practice of race-based slavery, and the Third Reich? That the difference is so clearly stark that making such a comparison is way out of line?

Are you insane?

They both suck. But systematically exterminating 6 million people is really in a category all by itself.

I'm not interested in debating which is worse.

I'm more interested in the notion that you just can't even compare a Confederate memorial to a Nazi memorial. That's just bat-#### crazy. Of course they're comparable.

If you're going to do it, then do it.

The Nazis were a party, that party was eradicated, and they were forced to unconditionally surrender.

In the south, the party responsible was allowed to resume its place in American life and they were not made to unconditionally surrender.

This is not a knock on the Democrats, but those are two major differences. It's just funny that all of a sudden people turn around and go 'what's all this confederate memorabilia doing around here?'

One party and ideology was outlawed, the other party and ideology was not.

Is this serious? The Democratic Party doesn't stand for slavery or secession.

Correct, but it did then, at least the Southern Democrats did. You said they were comparable, but that is a difference between the nazi party and the confederate memorials. So compare them, but you can't compare without contrasting. Obviously one was forgiven and considered forgivable and one was not.

We allowed the Japanese back into our good graces, they still have the Emperor. It's as though all of a sudden after 70 years we decided that we weren't accepting any Japanese merchandise that had the rising sun on it, or if we declared the Japanese ambassador was no longer permitted here until they dumped the emperor because his grandfather was a scumbag, hateful, racist, warmongering, fascist dictator, which he was.

I'm not making an argument for the statues here but the nazi = confederate is not really totally, 100% accurate, there are differences, for starters we forgave the confederates.

 

[timschochet]

I highly recommend Harry Turtledove's alternative history The Guns of the South. In explaining how the Confederacy would have handled victory (by freeing the slaves within a few years) it demonstrates the true character of the men who fought for it.

 

[Two Deep]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgWFxFg7-GU&list=PL5we5wdVumpqOtUzGpp27dEDnMvy0dtuA

lets all really listen

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

But even beyond that it's a terrible thing to compare the Confederacy to the Third Reich. Shameful really.

Hold on a second. I didn't even make it this far before responding the first time.

You're telling me that there's absolutely no comparing the CSA, which went to war to defend the practice of race-based slavery, and the Third Reich? That the difference is so clearly stark that making such a comparison is way out of line?

Are you insane?

They both suck. But systematically exterminating 6 million people is really in a category all by itself.

I'm not interested in debating which is worse.

I'm more interested in the notion that you just can't even compare a Confederate memorial to a Nazi memorial. That's just bat-#### crazy. Of course they're comparable.

If you're going to do it, then do it.

The Nazis were a party, that party was eradicated, and they were forced to unconditionally surrender.

In the south, the party responsible was allowed to resume its place in American life and they were not made to unconditionally surrender.

This is not a knock on the Democrats, but those are two major differences. It's just funny that all of a sudden people turn around and go 'what's all this confederate memorabilia doing around here?'

One party and ideology was outlawed, the other party and ideology was not.

You have a strange fascination with the old Democratic party.

Look, I will gladly crawfish back out of this. But if people are going to make comparisons between the nazis and the confederates at least acknowledge historical facts. The statues are there because the US government and the people who suffered in the north allowed them to be there. That did not happen with the nazis. However we want to shake or bake this people feel more disgusted now than the people who lost loved ones and who were actually faced with being killed by the very same people? The policy was reconciliation. That was not the case with the nazis. People claim to have more righteous indignation than Abe Lincoln and US Grant?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

And Saints I'm not sure where you're going with the Democratic Party thing. There were as many southern Whigs that were secessionists as Democrats, and northern Drms were not for secession. Whatever point you're trying to make doesn't fit.

The point is not about the party. It's just a historical distinction.

 

[joffer]

Apparently the Confederate flag meant way too much to this moron, enough to make him cry to the cops:

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

the vendor is selling nazi helmets, but the other guy is the moron.....uh huh.

Ummm,...yeah, the calling the cops part makes him a moron.

Yeah calling 911 is pretty stupid.

of course it's stupid. The guy is overly sensitive to the fact this relative was a holocaust survivor and the guy is selling nazi helmets. somehow Del left that part out and blamed it on the confederate flag

 

[Slapdash]

Wow Ivan. Auschwitz? Really?

Yes, really. The confederacy stood for something that was every bit as evil as Nazism. I think it's a good idea that we remember slavery, but not celebrate it or the people who fought to preserve it.

Please tell me what's wrong with that analogy.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I highly recommend Harry Turtledove's alternative history The Guns of the South. In explaining how the Confederacy would have handled victory (by freeing the slaves within a few years) it demonstrates the true character of the men who fought for it.

One of the statues we are faced with is Jeff Davis. I'd be for chucking that one, there is a guy who bombarded Fort Sumter before the people had a chance to resolve things. He pretty much drove the nation to war.

- Eta, but if the South had won there's no way they would have released the slaves. I think after a while it would have gotten quite, quite ugly for them.