What does the confederate flag mean to you? (1 Viewer)

[GilbertGrape]

The North did not voluntarily hand over ANY forts. They were seized easily because they werent fortified, except for Sumter and Moultrie.

But if your implication is the federal government gave these forts to the Confederacy freely of their own accord and by this action implicitly acknowledged the legality of the Confederacy and the right of secession, that's as wrong as it could be. I would also note that not even the Confederacy recognized the right of secession, or else they wouldn't have tired to invade West Virginia.

LOL. Invade West Virginia. Come on Tim. Read up. THERE WAS NO WEST VIRGINIA before the Civil War. The US created West Virginia from Virginia during the war. Which gives rise to the question: If states aren't allowed to secede, how can a part of a state secede and get approval from the US government?

to keep it simple...VA was in a state of rebellion. A big chunk of VA eventually said "uh, we would still be part of the Union."

Or, to be more precise, a part of a state wanted to SECEDE, which you've been arguing is illegal, but that the USA thought was JUST FINE DURING the Civil War.

This makes no sense. Have a good night, whatever alias this is.

You're not as bright as you pretend to be. That's ok, sugar.

 

[tdoss]

Yikes...that was a brutal knockout.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

In what is likely to be an ultimately unsuccessful effort to get this thread back on track, I'm going to offer this forward: A symbol, whether it's a flag, a drawing, or whatever, cannot be racist. It's just an object, a tool. The Confederacy rebelled for various reasons, chief among them was the idea that their voice wasn't being heard by the people in Washington. Granted, they were worried about slavery, and mistakenly thought that they were right in owning slaves, but owning slaves was still legal is several states in the Union, and remained that way for a large portion of the war. Neither side is blameless here, so if we're banning flags for being racist, the Native Americans would surely have a bone to pick with the American flag, considering several massacres of their people were perpetrated on them by the US Army.

The idea that we should rid ourselves of everything Confederate is, at the very least, a stupid idea. Whatever their shortcomings were concerning slavery, which was still legal in several Northern States at the time the War started, they still fought for their cause, some against their own families and friends, and they should be remembered as veterans.

This is categorically 100% wrong and an afront to our history. Their voice was being heard. They got every settlement, deal, concession and tax policy they bargained for for years and decades leading up to the first shots being fired. The criminal leaders of the rebellion got fed up because they were running out of deals to make and then came to the conclusion that the very system they used to their advantage and worked within was no longer valid because they believed they weren't going to get what they wanted anymore.That is the impetus for the war. Not some kind of nobel belief in government, self government, states rights, etc. It's was childish whining but a bunch of adults that feared they weren't going to get their way anymore.

I want to make out with you so hard.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Yikes

 

[Jayrod]

Gilbert, you so cray.

 

[jonessed]

Yankee- the abolitionists in the early 1850s who fought the U.S. Govt over the Fugitive Slave Law, (they broke slaves out of prison, defied US marshals, sent blacks to Canada, etc)- do you regard them as criminals and traitors?

Criminals.

One of them burned a copy of the U.S. constitution in a public square.

Burning a copy of the Constitution is not treason."Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

By the definition everyone that was in the CSA armed forces and government was guilty of treason. The US decided not to prosecute anyone for political reasons. Whether that was the correct decision is a different question.

That's up for debate. An argument can be made that once the southern states seceded the people in those states were no longer US citizens; thus, incapable of committing treason.

If I argue that I'm not a US citizen and refuse to pay my taxes, how do you think that will go?Just because they declared themselves separate didn't mean they were separate. Which is also why Lincoln didn't ask for a Congressional declaration of war before sending troops south. Despite what they were trying to do, they were never a separate country and were fighting against their own country/government.

So they don't have a legal leg to stand on there. And since there primary cause of fighting was an immoral one, they don't really have a sentimental leg to stand on either...which is why someone like me thinks all of the Confederate glorification that goes on in the South is absurd. They were traitors by definition and they killed their own countrymen to maintain their rights to keep black people as slaves. Its despicable and deserves shame, not honor.

Wrong. There was nothing in the constitution that said states could not secede. Once they did, they were separate.

Except they took United States property, most notably land, in order to secede. They were a part of the Union as had been agreed to by the original 13 colonies and each state admitted thereafter. There was a mutual agreement, assumed debts, shared investments and common interests at stake both financial and societal. To make the decision to secede was not in their power to do. They had the right to govern their states beyond what was stated in the Constitution but effectively dissolving the Union by splitting off nearly half of it was not a state's right.

They all knew that and that's why they went ahead and fired the first shots. It wasn't really a secession, but a revolt. They were attempting to take by force that which was not legally theirs. Sure, they could have won and made their own country but unless they pulled it off, they were always acting illegally and as traitors.

The right to secession was not legally clear, which was one of the reasons no one was actually tried for treason.

After the war it became a moot point anyway.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Oh good grief...

 

[The Commish]

Oh good grief...

Well, it IS Friday

 

[Jayrod]

I think once the Union marched through the south after four years of war, it was pretty much legally clear that they were not allowed to secede.

 

[jonessed]

I think once the Union marched through the south after four years of war, it was pretty much legally clear that they were not allowed to secede.

They made it clear they wouldn't allow it, which made the legal argument moot for practical purposes.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

That's not a citation, Mr. Foote

Prove it wrong. Why did Farragut have to say "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead"? Why didn't the Union still hold those forts? The South didn't capture them from the North. They were just handed over. You know it's true, it just doesn't support your narrative. Unless you're a really bad history teacher.

still no citation.

Meh. I took two courses from a prominent scholar on the Civil War who knew EVERYTHING about it. One was pre civil war, one was during. Highly decorated scholar (That means college, not high school or whatever you teach Tanner). If you can't refute my points which are correct, feel free to show your failings with s

Holy ####. I had no idea you took TWO courses from a PROMINENT scholar. I feel bad now. Not to mention that you took said courses sometime before 1861 and then actually during the war.

Boom. Tanner roasted.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

That's not a citation, Mr. Foote

Prove it wrong. Why did Farragut have to say "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead"? Why didn't the Union still hold those forts? The South didn't capture them from the North. They were just handed over. You know it's true, it just doesn't support your narrative. Unless you're a really bad history teacher.

still no citation.

Meh. I took two courses from a prominent scholar on the Civil War who knew EVERYTHING about it. One was pre civil war, one was during. Highly decorated scholar (That means college, not high school or whatever you teach Tanner). If you can't refute my points which are correct, feel free to show your failings with s

Holy ####. I had no idea you took TWO courses from a PROMINENT scholar. I feel bad now. Not to mention that you took said courses sometime before 1861 and then actually during the war.

Boom. Tanner roasted.

It will take me years to recover

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Cite?

Prove it wrong.

That's not how this works. You're the one making the claim.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Oh good grief...

Well, it IS Friday

Thank god. Although I did take some graduate classes from a PhD who opined that Fridays weren't nearly as much fun as Saturdays, so tomorrow will 100% rock.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Cite?

Prove it wrong.

That's not how this works. You're the one making the claim.

Easy there. Remember he took two courses from a prominent scholar.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Cite?

Prove it wrong.

That's not how this works. You're the one making the claim.

Easy there. Remember he took two courses from a prominent scholar.

The ultimate trump card, really. Unless of course, someone shows up that has taken three courses from a prominent scholar.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Cite?

Prove it wrong.

That's not how this works. You're the one making the claim.

Easy there. Remember he took two courses from a prominent scholar.

The ultimate trump card, really. Unless of course, someone shows up that has taken three courses from a prominent scholar.

Oooo! I actually took 3 courses from a guy who could be considered a prominent scholar. Too bad his specialty was the Dutch in colonial America...which nobody really cares about.

 

[urbanhack]

Cite?

Prove it wrong.

That's not how this works. You're the one making the claim.

Easy there. Remember he took two courses from a prominent scholar.

The ultimate trump card, really. Unless of course, someone shows up that has taken three courses from a prominent scholar.

Oooo! I actually took 3 courses from a guy who could be considered a prominent scholar. Too bad his specialty was the Dutch in colonial America...which nobody really cares about.

I care and I'm not even dutch!

 

[timschochet]

Cite?

Prove it wrong.

That's not how this works. You're the one making the claim.

Easy there. Remember he took two courses from a prominent scholar.

The ultimate trump card, really. Unless of course, someone shows up that has taken three courses from a prominent scholar.

Donald Trump is a scholar?

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Cite?

Prove it wrong.

That's not how this works. You're the one making the claim.

Easy there. Remember he took two courses from a prominent scholar.

The ultimate trump card, really. Unless of course, someone shows up that has taken three courses from a prominent scholar.

Donald Trump is a scholar?

Sure, just ask him.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Cite?

Prove it wrong.

That's not how this works. You're the one making the claim.

Easy there. Remember he took two courses from a prominent scholar.

The ultimate trump card, really. Unless of course, someone shows up that has taken three courses from a prominent scholar.

Oooo! I actually took 3 courses from a guy who could be considered a prominent scholar. Too bad his specialty was the Dutch in colonial America...which nobody really cares about.

I care and I'm not even dutch!

. Here you go http://www.amazon.com/Holland-Hudson-Economic-Social-History/dp/0801495857

 

[Thunderlips]

You people are clueless when it comes to this debate. I've seen both North and South Book One and Book Two...twice. The North just had more star power....you can't beat Johnny Cash, Hal Holbrook, Anthony Zerbe, Robert Guillame, and Kirste Alley....Yeah....Patrick Swayze, his two sisters and his girlfriend were sexier than James Read, Parker Stevenson and Read's wife and Wayne Newton and David Carradine were great as a Southern General and Plantation owner.........but they just didn't bring it the way the Northern actors did.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

My link

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

My link

Jeez you're old.

 

[timschochet]

I enjoyed Gettysburg. It was long though.

But- I couldn't make it through Gods and Generals. Still not sure how they managed to take such a fascinating subject, make the filming as accurate as possible, and it's one of the dullest movies ever.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

My link

Jeez you're old.

and horny

 

[Christo]

Yankee- the abolitionists in the early 1850s who fought the U.S. Govt over the Fugitive Slave Law, (they broke slaves out of prison, defied US marshals, sent blacks to Canada, etc)- do you regard them as criminals and traitors?

Criminals.

One of them burned a copy of the U.S. constitution in a public square.

Burning a copy of the Constitution is not treason."Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

By the definition everyone that was in the CSA armed forces and government was guilty of treason. The US decided not to prosecute anyone for political reasons. Whether that was the correct decision is a different question.

That's up for debate. An argument can be made that once the southern states seceded the people in those states were no longer US citizens; thus, incapable of committing treason.

If I argue that I'm not a US citizen and refuse to pay my taxes, how do you think that will go?Just because they declared themselves separate didn't mean they were separate. Which is also why Lincoln didn't ask for a Congressional declaration of war before sending troops south. Despite what they were trying to do, they were never a separate country and were fighting against their own country/government.

So they don't have a legal leg to stand on there. And since there primary cause of fighting was an immoral one, they don't really have a sentimental leg to stand on either...which is why someone like me thinks all of the Confederate glorification that goes on in the South is absurd. They were traitors by definition and they killed their own countrymen to maintain their rights to keep black people as slaves. Its despicable and deserves shame, not honor.

You can renounce your US citizenship.

But then you have to leave, or get a visa which will probably require citizenship somewhere.

So?

That's the point. The South didn't want to leave AND they didn't want to follow the U.S. Rules anymore. They tried to take their ball and make everyone else go home. Doesn't work that way. You can quit the U.S., but you don't get to quit AND keep your land. That land is part of a territory admitted to the U.S. as part of the Union. It is no longer free to join other nations or form its own. That land is now under U.S. Jurisdiction.

Link?

 

[Christo]

I think once the Union marched through the south after four years of war, it was pretty much legally clear that they were not allowed to secede.

 

[Mr. Cross]

Rally supporting the flag scheduled for today

https://news.yahoo.com/kkk-african-american-group-plan-rallies-south-carolina-120306790.html

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Rally supporting the flag scheduled for today

https://news.yahoo.com/kkk-african-american-group-plan-rallies-south-carolina-120306790.html

Exactly

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Rally supporting the flag scheduled for today

https://news.yahoo.com/kkk-african-american-group-plan-rallies-south-carolina-120306790.html

Exactly

So i live in the Boston area and i have direct tv...had a tech come out to adjust my dish..black guy from down south and has lived in this area for 3 years ...i asked him straight out what he thought about the confederate flag controversy ...he said i didnt want to know ...he said its so racist that white people cant even grasp how bad it is...he went on for a bit but bottom line was its a symbol of a real issue that is alive as ever down south....he also said removing the flag wont change whats in peoples hearts

 

[cstu]

I think once the Union marched through the south after four years of war, it was pretty much legally clear that they were not allowed to secede.

 

[Hooper31]

I enjoyed Gettysburg. It was long though.

But- I couldn't make it through Gods and Generals. Still not sure how they managed to take such a fascinating subject, make the filming as accurate as possible, and it's one of the dullest movies ever.

Pisses me off that they screwed up the second film of that trilogy. I liked Last Full Measure best of the three books, but the painfully slow Gods and Generals killed any chance of the third book being made into a film.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

 

[In The Zone]

Rally supporting the flag scheduled for today

https://news.yahoo.com/kkk-african-american-group-plan-rallies-south-carolina-120306790.html

11 different law enforcement agencies were present.

There were 5 arrest.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

Nope. No hate there.

 

[In The Zone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

Nope. No hate there.

What a bunch of idiots. I'm glad I had to work or I may have gone to watch the mayhem.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

 

[Binky The Doormat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

Free! Free to roam and prance and preach the word of the white man ...within the protective boundaries set by the local/state police.

 

[Mjolnirs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

guilty by association in this case

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

You're absolutely right.

And you might be the most open minded, non-racist person in the South. I honestly believe that your attachment to the flag has nothing to do with racism.

(of course I still have a hard time understanding your ultrapatriotism for S.C. but we'll forget about that now)

The problem is that groups like the KKK have taken your beloved flag and corrupted it. It IS a symbol for white power.

Now it sucks for people like you that see the flag as a symbol for southern heritage/pride that a bunch of maniacs have co-opted it into something disgusting but that's life.

The swastika was once a positive symbol in some Asian cultures. AIDS was great name for a weight-loss candy. Adolf was a pretty cool name that means 'noble wolf'. Not now.

You can claim "heritage, not hate" all you want. You might be 100% sincere. But a lot of people aren't going to care.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

You're absolutely right.

And you might be the most open minded, non-racist person in the South. I honestly believe that your attachment to the flag has nothing to do with racism.

(of course I still have a hard time understanding your ultrapatriotism for S.C. but we'll forget about that now)

The problem is that groups like the KKK have taken your beloved flag and corrupted it. It IS a symbol for white power.

Now it sucks for people like you that see the flag as a symbol for southern heritage/pride that a bunch of maniacs have co-opted it into something disgusting but that's life.

The swastika was once a positive symbol in some Asian cultures. AIDS was great name for a weight-loss candy. Adolf was a pretty cool name that means 'noble wolf'. Not now.

You can claim "heritage, not hate" all you want. You might be 100% sincere. But a lot of people aren't going to care.

Hi buddy. Slight problem with the bolded.

Pretty sure that rag stood for horror the minute some woman sewed it...a woman who was probably owned by another person.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

You're absolutely right.

And you might be the most open minded, non-racist person in the South. I honestly believe that your attachment to the flag has nothing to do with racism.

(of course I still have a hard time understanding your ultrapatriotism for S.C. but we'll forget about that now)

The problem is that groups like the KKK have taken your beloved flag and corrupted it. It IS a symbol for white power.

Now it sucks for people like you that see the flag as a symbol for southern heritage/pride that a bunch of maniacs have co-opted it into something disgusting but that's life.

The swastika was once a positive symbol in some Asian cultures. AIDS was great name for a weight-loss candy. Adolf was a pretty cool name that means 'noble wolf'. Not now.

You can claim "heritage, not hate" all you want. You might be 100% sincere. But a lot of people aren't going to care.

Hi buddy. Slight problem with the bolded.

Pretty sure that rag stood for horror the minute some woman sewed it...a woman who was probably owned by another person.

Pssst...I'm playing along with the "heritage not hate" crowd.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

You're absolutely right.

And you might be the most open minded, non-racist person in the South. I honestly believe that your attachment to the flag has nothing to do with racism.

(of course I still have a hard time understanding your ultrapatriotism for S.C. but we'll forget about that now)

The problem is that groups like the KKK have taken your beloved flag and corrupted it. It IS a symbol for white power.

Now it sucks for people like you that see the flag as a symbol for southern heritage/pride that a bunch of maniacs have co-opted it into something disgusting but that's life.

The swastika was once a positive symbol in some Asian cultures. AIDS was great name for a weight-loss candy. Adolf was a pretty cool name that means 'noble wolf'. Not now.

You can claim "heritage, not hate" all you want. You might be 100% sincere. But a lot of people aren't going to care.

Hi buddy. Slight problem with the bolded.

Pretty sure that rag stood for horror the minute some woman sewed it...a woman who was probably owned by another person.

Pssst...I'm playing along with the "heritage not hate" crowd.

Sorry.

:skulkingbehindyou:

 

[renesauz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

That isn't the point. No matter what you or anyone else thinks of that flag, the simple fact is that it's been hijacked by every hate group and radical anti-government group in America. For that reason alone a REASONABLE person who doesn't want to be associated with any of those groups woud distance themselves as much as possible from the thing, no matter what they think it is SUPPOSED to mean.

It's really not that complicated.

 

[The Commish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

guilty by association in this case

Sorry...this is just lazy and the approach is really not helpful.

 

[TripItUp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

That isn't the point. No matter what you or anyone else thinks of that flag, the simple fact is that it's been hijacked by every hate group and radical anti-government group in America. For that reason alone a REASONABLE person who doesn't want to be associated with any of those groups woud distance themselves as much as possible from the thing, no matter what they think it is SUPPOSED to mean.

It's really not that complicated.

exactly

 

[Christo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtVVz0UtRJc

No racism associated with the confederate flag at all...its all about pride ...proud of the ignorance that runs throughout their hateful disgusting veins

Well, it is a well recognized hate group and not representative of every flag supporter.

You're absolutely right.

And you might be the most open minded, non-racist person in the South. I honestly believe that your attachment to the flag has nothing to do with racism.

(of course I still have a hard time understanding your ultrapatriotism for S.C. but we'll forget about that now)

The problem is that groups like the KKK have taken your beloved flag and corrupted it. It IS a symbol for white power.

Now it sucks for people like you that see the flag as a symbol for southern heritage/pride that a bunch of maniacs have co-opted it into something disgusting but that's life.

The swastika was once a positive symbol in some Asian cultures. AIDS was great name for a weight-loss candy. Adolf was a pretty cool name that means 'noble wolf'. Not now.

You can claim "heritage, not hate" all you want. You might be 100% sincere. But a lot of people aren't going to care.

Native American cultures as well. The 45th Infantry Division's first shoulder patch was a swastika--an Indian symbol for good luck. But they changed it to the Thunderbird for obvious reasons at the beginning of WWII.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-u-s-45th-infantry-division-one-donned-swastikas

 

[Mjolnirs]

guilty by association in this case

Sadly, you are correct.

You're absolutely right.

I honestly believe that your attachment to the flag has nothing to do with racism.

(of course I still have a hard time understanding your ultrapatriotism for S.C. but we'll forget about that now)

The problem is that groups like the KKK have taken your beloved flag and corrupted it. It IS a symbol for white power.

Now it sucks for people like you that see the flag as a symbol for southern heritage/pride that a bunch of maniacs have co-opted it into something disgusting but that's life.

You can claim "heritage, not hate" all you want. You might be 100% sincere. But a lot of people aren't going to care.

I have to tell you that the bolded part of your reply really hit me this morning. If I accomplish nothing else in this thread, that comment makes it worth my time. I sincerely thank you for that.Regarding the parenthetical part, it's one of those things that if you don't get it, you don't get it. I can only explain my part.

On the last sentence, I know a lot of people aren't going to care. But, if I lived my life being overly concerned about what everyone cares about, I wouldn't be me ... I would also have much shorter hair!

That isn't the point. No matter what you or anyone else thinks of that flag, the simple fact is that it's been hijacked by every hate group and radical anti-government group in America. For that reason alone a REASONABLE person who doesn't want to be associated with any of those groups woud distance themselves as much as possible from the thing, no matter what they think it is SUPPOSED to mean.

It's really not that complicated.

You're right as well, it has been hijacked. As an SCV member though, I have to be one of the voices expressing our position.Here is a simple categorization, from my point of view, of why individuals display the flag.

Going from least racist/antagonistic/anti-establishment to greatest:

*SCV/UDC

*Love the South, but haven't committed to the above groups.

*Woo hoo I'm from the South! (or love Southern Rock, or NASCAR, or whatever)

*EFF YOU!!! (directed at government, media, etc.)

*Hate Groups.