What does the confederate flag mean to you? (1 Viewer)

[tonydead]

So disrespectful.

 

[timschochet]

I doubt there are too any people who display this flag that aren't aware of how blacks perceive it. At this point the ones who display it are deliberately attempting to offend others.

You grow up seeing it in schools. Seeing it on Dukes of Hazard. Seeing it on the courthouse. It is a different culture. It is changing, but there are still a lot of people there who don't see any part of it as racist or even offensive. It is their pride and history.

Bullcrap. They KNOW at this point. They've seen African-Americans on TV telling them that it's offensive. They know, they just don't care.

Innocent question, should they be asked to not display it if for them they mean no disrespect and it's just a matter of their history?

Yes.

Who's doing the asking? And how is non-compliance treated?

I am. It's treated as rude.

 

[timschochet]

See I loved Lynyrd Skynyrd. And I love Tom Petty, and he used them for his "Rebels" song and tour about 30 years ago. Also it's important to remember that what we think of as the Confederate flag was actually the flag of General Lee's Army of Northern Virginia (the main Confederate army in the east.) The actual flag of the Confederacy, known as the "Stars and Bars" is a very different design. The Army of Northern Virginia was heroic, and celebrating this particular flag, it can be argued, doesn't so much celebrate slavery as it does the battles that Lee's Army fought.

That being said, we have now reached a point in our history in which anyone who displays this flag HAS to be aware of how offensive it is to African-Americans. Even 30 years ago that was a question in debate; it's not anymore. Displaying the flag on cars and other public places, or on clothing, is being deliberately rude. It shouldn't be illegal IMO. But it also shouldn't be part of a license plate which the state manufactures.

This doesn't make sense, unless I misunderstood your earlier point and you're fine with the flag being flown. No one (or basically no one) supports flying the confederate flag now because they actively want a return to slavery. They give the exact same reasons that you give for supporting the flag. The problem is that you can't (or at least I can't) separate the "heroic" conduct of Lee's army, and the cause they were fighting for. Had Lee's army been more successful, slavery would have continued for longer than it did.

I'm not fine with it being flown. And I agree with your argument. But I understand the other side, though I disagree with it.

 

[Mjolnirs]

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/headlines/20141205-texas-battle-over-confederate-flag-license-plate-headed-to-supreme-court.ece

South Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina, Mississippi and Alabama have these. There may be others too.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Government's legitimate purpose in having license plates for vehicles is fulfilled by having plates that identify the vehicle. When governments started allowing more information on plates they left their function, they were now enabling or sanctioning expression unnecessary to government's proper purpose. Government needs to get out of the business of becoming entangled in speech for no good reason. They embroil themselves needlessly in litigation, wasting scarce resources.

 

[timschochet]

Government's legitimate purpose in having license plates for vehicles is fulfilled by having plates that identify the vehicle. When governments started allowing more information on plates they left their function, they were now enabling or sanctioning expression unnecessary to government's proper purpose. Government needs to get out of the business of becoming entangled I speech for no good reason. They embroil themselves needlessly in litigation, wasting scarce resources.

This is wrong. Government gets revenue from custom plates; revenue that they might otherwise have to obtain through taxation. This is voluntary and therefore preferable.

Since government is involved in selling the plates, they can and should regulate what is allowable and what isn't. Confederate flags should be prohibited.

 

[tonydead]

I didn't get the memo!

No you didn't!

 

[tonydead]

Just in case

you missed this....

 

[The Commish]

I doubt there are too any people who display this flag that aren't aware of how blacks perceive it. At this point the ones who display it are deliberately attempting to offend others.

Yeah...not so much. Sure, some do....I don't think "most" do and certainly not enough to make a statement like this without a qualification of quantity (many, most, some, etc). This isn't a cut and dry topic to make a blanket statement about.

 

[jon_mx]

I doubt there are too any people who display this flag that aren't aware of how blacks perceive it. At this point the ones who display it are deliberately attempting to offend others.

Yeah...not so much. Sure, some do....I don't think "most" do and certainly not enough to make a statement like this without a qualification of quantity (many, most, some, etc). This isn't a cut and dry topic to make a blanket statement about.

Please don't stop Tim from overgeneralizing about groups he understands little about. It is what he does, but yet denies he does.

 

[Christo]

I doubt there are too any people who display this flag that aren't aware of how blacks perceive it. At this point the ones who display it are deliberately attempting to offend others.

You grow up seeing it in schools. Seeing it on Dukes of Hazard. Seeing it on the courthouse. It is a different culture. It is changing, but there are still a lot of people there who don't see any part of it as racist or even offensive. It is their pride and history.

Bullcrap. They KNOW at this point. They've seen African-Americans on TV telling them that it's offensive. They know, they just don't care.

Innocent question, should they be asked to not display it if for them they mean no disrespect and it's just a matter of their history?

Yes.

Who's doing the asking? And how is non-compliance treated?

I am. It's treated as rude.

Sure you are. Just gonna walk up to Billy Bob and Bubba and tell them you're just in from L.A. and want them to take down their Rebel Flag because it's upsetting to some people. Good luck with that.

 

[Fennis]

Just in case

you missed this....

that dude believes Jesus can cure gay people. Seems to line up with his feelings on the confederate flag.

 

[joffer]

Just in case

you missed this....

pretty good shtick

 

[Gawain]

Government's legitimate purpose in having license plates for vehicles is fulfilled by having plates that identify the vehicle. When governments started allowing more information on plates they left their function, they were now enabling or sanctioning expression unnecessary to government's proper purpose. Government needs to get out of the business of becoming entangled I speech for no good reason. They embroil themselves needlessly in litigation, wasting scarce resources.

This is wrong. Government gets revenue from custom plates; revenue that they might otherwise have to obtain through taxation. This is voluntary and therefore preferable.

Since government is involved in selling the plates, they can and should regulate what is allowable and what isn't. Confederate flags should be prohibited.

Libertarian Tim, Everyone!

I wish NY would stop selling Jets plates. Their 2014 season is more offensive than any 150 year old symbol could dream of being.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

It means

- Lynerd Skynerd

- people who "hey man" a lot with a hard twang

- GWAR tickets

- guys with gas station shirts and dirty fingernails

- Waffle Houses

- trailer homes

- camo 4-wheelers

- Marlboros

- Extreme Mullets

- Dangling cigerettes

- Plymouth Charger "Superbees"

- Cars that still have 8-tracks

- Junk all over yards

- Drive-throughs used as weekly grocery shopping

- Women with curlers at the Piggly Wiggly

- Biker trash

LEAVE GWAR OUT OF THIS

 

[oddball]

The argument is once again rearing its ugly head.

 

[Mister CIA]

It means

- Lynerd Skynerd

- people who "hey man" a lot with a hard twang

- GWAR tickets

- guys with gas station shirts and dirty fingernails

- Waffle Houses

- trailer homes

- camo 4-wheelers

- Marlboros

- Extreme Mullets

- Dangling cigerettes

- Plymouth Charger "Superbees"

- Cars that still have 8-tracks

- Junk all over yards

- Drive-throughs used as weekly grocery shopping

- Women with curlers at the Piggly Wiggly

- Biker trash

LEAVE GWAR OUT OF THIS

Guess who has two thumbs and is going to Waffle House tomorrow.

 

[rockaction]

Big Frog 104. Also, all the rednecks here in CT that want to be southern rednecks fly the Confederate flag and listen to country.

Oh, yeah, that generally means they're racist, too. No sarcasm there. They really are.

 

[proninja]

The confederate flag is America's swastika

 

[Jack White]

Flags are for squares.

 

[moleculo]

might as well put this here.

link

Take Down the Confederate Flag—Now
The flag that Dylann Roof embraced, which many South Carolinians embrace, endorses the violence he committed.

Chris Keane / Reuters


Last night, Dylann Roof walked into a Charleston church, sat for an hour, and then killed nine people. Roof’s crime cannot be divorced from the ideology of white supremacy which long animated his state nor from its potent symbol—the Confederate flag. Visitors to Charleston have long been treated to South Carolina’s attempt to clean its history and depict its secession as something other than a war to guarantee the enslavement of the majority of its residents. This notion is belied by any serious interrogation of the Civil War and the primary documents of its instigators. Yet the Confederate battle flag—the flag of Dylann Roof—still flies on the Capitol grounds in Columbia.

The Confederate flag’s defenders often claim it represents “heritage not hate.” I agree—the heritage of White Supremacy was not so much birthed by hate as by the impulse toward plunder. Dylann Roof plundered nine different bodies last night, plundered nine different families of an original member, plundered nine different communities of a singular member. An entire people are poorer for his action. The flag that Roof embraced, which many South Carolinians embrace, does not stand in opposition to this act—it endorses it. That the Confederate flag is the symbol of of white supremacists is evidenced by the very words of those who birthed it:

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth...


This moral truth—“that the negro is not equal to the white man”—is exactly what animated Dylann Roof. More than any individual actor, in recent history, Roof honored his flag in exactly the manner it always demanded—with human sacrifice.


Surely the flag’s defenders will proffer other, muddier, interpretations which allow them the luxury of looking away. In this way they honor their ancestors. Cowardice, too, is heritage. When white supremacist John Wilkes Booth assassinated Abraham Lincoln 150 years ago, Booth’s fellow travelers did all they could to disassociate themselves. “Our disgust for the dastardly wretch can scarcely be uttered,” fumed a former governor of South Carolina, the state where secession began. Robert E. Lee’s armies took special care to enslave free blacks during their Northern campaign. But Lee claimed the assassination of the Great Emancipator was “deplorable.” Jefferson Davis believed that “it could not be regarded otherwise than as a great misfortune to the South,” and angrily denied rumors that he had greeted the news with exultation.

Villain though he was, Booth was a man who understood the logical conclusion of Confederate rhetoric:
"TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN":
Right or wrong. God judge me, not man. For be my motive good or bad, of one thing I am sure, the lasting condemnation of the North.
I love peace more than life. Have loved the Union beyond expression. For four years have I waited, hoped and prayed for the dark clouds to break, and for a restoration of our former sunshine. To wait longer would be a crime. All hope for peace is dead. My prayers have proved as idle as my hopes. God's will be done. I go to see and share the bitter end….
I have ever held the South were right. The very nomination of ABRAHAM LINCOLN, four years ago, spoke plainly, war—war upon Southern rights and institutions….
This country was formed for the white, not for the black man. And looking upon African Slavery from the same stand-point held by the noble framers of our constitution. I for one, have ever considered if one of the greatest blessings (both for themselves and us,) that God has ever bestowed upon a favored nation. Witness heretofore our wealth and power; witness their elevation and enlightenment above their race elsewhere. I have lived among it most of my life, and have seen less harsh treatment from master to man than I have beheld in the North from father to son. Yet, Heaven knows, no one would be willing to do more for the negro race than I, could I but see a way to still better their condition.

By 1865, the Civil War had morphed into a war against slavery—the “cornerstone” of Confederate society. Booth absorbed his lesson too well. He did not violate some implicit rule of Confederate chivalry or politesse. He accurately interpreted the cause of Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, men who were too weak to truthfully address that cause’s natural end.

Moral cowardice requires choice and action. It demands that its adherents repeatedly look away, that they favor the fanciful over the plain, myth over history, the dream over the real. Here is another choice.

Take down the flag. Take it down now.

Put it in a museum. Inscribe beneath it the years 1861-2015. Move forward. Abandon this charlatanism. Drive out this cult of death and chains. Save your lovely souls. Move forward. Do it now.

H/T to Sigmund and Jeff

 

[Todd Andrews]

The confederate flag means enslaving black people.

 

[avoiding injuries]

At this point I'm ok with banning the flag and banning guns so we can move on to the next debate.

 

[cstu]

I find it very odd that so-called 'patriotic' people in the South still celebrate the flag, which is the symbol of rebellion against the country they claim to love.

 

[Underachievers]

The Confederate Flag to me is just piece of cloth that I can wave if I feel like getting my nutty lefty neighbors riled up.

 

[cstu]

Big Frog 104. Also, all the rednecks here in CT that want to be southern rednecks fly the Confederate flag and listen to country.

Oh, yeah, that generally means they're racist, too. No sarcasm there. They really are.

Southern or not, any non-racist person would have difficulty displaying the Confederate flag due to what it represents to recently African people.

 

[PIK95]

The Dukes of Hazard.

 

[Hastur]

I find it very odd that so-called 'patriotic' people in the South still celebrate the flag, which is the symbol of rebellion against the country they claim to love.

I moved from New Jersey to South Carolina about 7 years ago. In that time, I have learned the people in SC view the flag as a representation of states rights. Most claim it has nothing to do with race, slavery, or similar ideology. They see the flag as a source of pride.

 

[rascal]

It needed to be destroyed 150+ years ago.

 

[msommer]

I find it very odd that so-called 'patriotic' people in the South still celebrate the flag, which is the symbol of rebellion against the country they claim to love.

I moved from New Jersey to South Carolina about 7 years ago. In that time, I have learned the people in SC view the flag as a representation of states rights. Most claim it has nothing to do with race, slavery, or similar ideology. They see the flag as a source of pride.

Those states rights that were removed by the civil war (the right to secession etc)?

People in SC seem willfully ignorant.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

The Dukes of Hazard.

This

 

[IC FBGCav]

It means most people are uneducated both for and against it.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I find it very odd that so-called 'patriotic' people in the South still celebrate the flag, which is the symbol of rebellion against the country they claim to love.

I moved from New Jersey to South Carolina about 7 years ago. In that time, I have learned the people in SC view the flag as a representation of states rights. Most claim it has nothing to do with race, slavery, or similar ideology. They see the flag as a source of pride.

Yeah...and what right were they most concerned about?

 

[cstu]

Even Lynyrd Skynyrd knows it's time to retire the Confederate flag.

 

[GilbertGrape]

I find it very odd that so-called 'patriotic' people in the South still celebrate the flag, which is the symbol of rebellion against the country they claim to love.

I moved from New Jersey to South Carolina about 7 years ago. In that time, I have learned the people in SC view the flag as a representation of states rights. Most claim it has nothing to do with race, slavery, or similar ideology. They see the flag as a source of pride.

Those states rights that were removed by the civil war (the right to secession etc)?

People in SC seem willfully ignorant.

Actually, all States Rights were greatly diminished after the Civil War,

 

[chauncey]

The battle flag is a symbol of ignorance and hatred. Anyone who flies it or is proud of it is one prescription drug and automatic weapon away from committing a terrorist attack. I am shocked that there are still people who think their ancestors' struggle is more important than a person's feelings in the present.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Why would we not want racist pig-####ers to voluntarily identify themselves?

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Why would we not want racist pig-####ers to voluntarily identify themselves?

this.

 

[msommer]

Why would we not want racist pig-####ers to voluntarily identify themselves?

Do they do that by having the State fly the flag on memorials? Or the State putting it on license plates?

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Why would we not want racist pig-####ers to voluntarily identify themselves?

Do they do that by having the State fly the flag on memorials? Or the State putting it on license plates?

yes, yes they do

 

[Apple Jack]

http://www.theonion.com/graphic/georgia-adds-swastika-middle-finger-to-state-flag-8998

 

[Apple Jack]

The battle flag is a symbol of ignorance and hatred. Anyone who flies it or is proud of it is one prescription drug and automatic weapon away from committing a terrorist attack. I am shocked that there are still people who think their ancestors' struggle is more important than a person's feelings in the present.

he might be an #######, but he fell out of a vag of someone related to me, so f the rational world!

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

http://www.theonion.com/graphic/georgia-adds-swastika-middle-finger-to-state-flag-8998

 

[General Tso]

Just heard that the first time the Battle Flag was flown at the State House in South Carolina was in 61. Not 1861. 1961. It was a middle finger directed at the Federal Government as a sign of resistance toward racial desegregation. Had nothing to do with honoring the valor of Southern war heros from the Civil War.

Take it down.

 

[Pots]

The confederate flag is America's swastika

What a highly ignorant thing to say.

 

[Mjolnirs]

Just heard that the first time the Battle Flag was flown at the State House in South Carolina was in 61. Not 1861. 1961. It was a middle finger directed at the Federal Government as a sign of resistance toward racial desegregation. Had nothing to do with honoring the valor of Southern war heros from the Civil War.

Take it down.

Yes and no. I'm sure there was plenty of "middle finger" involved, but this was during the Centennial of the war. The state's congressional resolution was to raise the flag in commemoration of the Centennial of the war. The problem was the resolution didn't have a length of time for the flag to be up. Consequently, they just didn't take it down.Eisenhower formed a national Centennial Commission which basically delegated to the states to create their own Centennial Commissions to commemorate the centennial.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

A few blocks away from my house there is a house on a corner that planted a homemade flagpole on the corner of his property and flys a confederate flag. This flag flys day and night. No big trees nearby, so its very easy to see while driving down either street. Whats the FBG play here?What does the confederate flag represent to you? Please include the state you grew up in with your answer.

I think the way this thread was started and how the issue was posed is worth revisiting:

- Have you ever seen a confederate flag in your neighborhood?

- If you did see one how would you react? Would you try to do something about it?

- What state do you live in?

 

[proninja]

The confederate flag is America's swastika

What a highly ignorant thing to say.

Actually, it's not.

 

[proninja]

http://images.dailykos.com/images/149463/large/Dylann_Roof_Confederate_flag.jpg?1434818045

 

[Pots]

http://images.dailykos.com/images/149463/large/Dylann_Roof_Confederate_flag.jpg?1434818045

http://i.imgur.com/ndweC.jpg